the president is not only recognizing the need for testing now. he also gave you some key insights today. >> well, it will go down to zero ultimately. if you test you're going to show many more cases. there will be at the appropriate time, it will be down to zero. >> first of all, you have to remember trump told you that covid would be gone by now, all right? there is no science behind his suggestions. but you know that already at this point, or i hope you do. but there's a key part of that statement that you may miss. if you just told you why he ducked testing for so long -- and they did duck it -- more testing means more cases identified. trump did not like the idea of showing how fast covid was spreading seeing how he was calling it a hoax and saying it was going to go away after a dozen or so cases. now we have to be careful not

just to throw barbs and play gotcha. no, no, we have to talk about it so we don't repeat it, okay? new models are projecting thousands more lives may be claimed by states if they reopen before they're ready. florida has a stay-home order that expires friday. the governor there, governor desantis talked reopening plans with trump today and hit back at critics saying he waited too long initially to shut things down. >> you look at some of the most draconian orders that have been issued in some of these states and compare florida in terms of our hospitalizations per 100,000, in terms of our fatalities per 100,000. you go from d.c., maryland, new jersey, new york, connecticut, massachusetts, michigan, indiana, ohio, illinois, you name it, florida's done better. >> i wonder if that list of states is also accurate in terms of all the kids he sent back

from spring break after letting them party down in a studepid w in his own state. i wonder if those states were affected by that. draconian. is that really the way to be talking about the only thing that made a difference here. let's take the thing to governor mike dewine. desantis threw shade at his state at well. i hope you and the family are healthy. >> thanks chris. thank you. how you doing? >> better than i deserve. family's doing great. we are among the lucky ones. no question about it. my wife and my son powered through in a way that i could have only imagined. i, as we all suspected, am the weak link. governor, let me ask you this -- governor desantis, this is not a competition. it's not which governor is great. you're doing very well in your state for how you're handling things. he will be judged by his own voters.

the idea that mistakes were made where you are because you have more deaths for example or more people hospitalized per 100,000, is that a fair metric for you? >> well, i can only focus on ohio. you know, chris, we did this pretty early. we had the classic scheduled and we stopped it. it was the first big decision to stop anything in the country. and we did that. and what i'm seeing now is good. look, we're still losing people. every life lost is just horrible. but we've seen not only a flattening now but a decline that began about a week or so ago in hospitalization. and so it's not going down as fast as we would like, but the hospitalization is in fact going down. so, we're happy about that. last week we got a huge break in signing a contract for some real testing. by tomorrow we'll be up 7,500 a

day. that will double next week. and we'll end up within about three weeks at 22,000 tests per day which is a huge jump for us. i mean, that's a huge -- >> right. >> and we're also working with partners in health to stand up our tracing around the state of ohio. so, we're going to go after it. i like being on offense a lot better than on defense. and we're very happy about that. we're starting to open up a little bit, not fast enough obviously for a lot of people. but we're trying to do this in a reasonable way that gives people confidence that they can go to the businesses and that they will be safe. so, this friday we start really opening up with our hospitals. and next week, we go into manufacturing that's not already open. and then on the 12th of may, we move to retail. we're not yet to restaurants.

we're trying to plot that out and working with folks who run restaurants to see exactly how we can do that to keep people protected. but anyway, it's kind of layered rollout and we couldn't have done it, frankly, if we didn't have a lot more testing that we now have that capability. >> so, let's talk about that, governor. rate of increase of testing is important. but, you know, you guys are so far behind -- not your fault. not anybody's fault. it's just the reality. who cares about the blame. you just have to increase the game here, right? so, do you feel confident -- and tell us why -- the stuff that you're reopening you'll be able to cover with the amount of testing and tracing, very key component, and why that off sets a concern that you haven't completely met the cdc guidelines, you should be giving it more time. why do you have confidence that you can do it the way you're

doing it this friday? >> well, we're really trying to -- we're going to be doing two things. and we have two big concerns. one, you want to do the tracing. and to get the tracing up so that you can actually trace every single person that is tested positive, that's a big deal. we've not been able to do that nearly to the extent we want to do it. more testing we're going to be able to reach more of these individuals and we'll find out who they were in contact with and try to isolate that, be on the offense. so, we feel, you know, good about that. it certainly is a work in progress. we're not there yet. but it is a work in progress. the -- you know, we're doing the rollout -- i've been watching numbers -- go numbers, good numbers as far as hospitalization, for ten days or so. really good. and, you know, it's going down. so, that's movement in the right direction. and we now have -- >> it's definitely movement in the right direction, but the cdc wants two weeks.

they want two weeks of down. you don't have two weeks of down. do you have a better metric? >> no. look, i think ten days now, by the time we open much of anything we're going to be over two weeks. and all we're doing this friday -- everybody says may 1. but the only thing we're doing on friday is hospitals, and that's starting to get people caught up on medical procedures that would have been good if they had had before. we're not going up until may 4th until we even open manufacturing and may 12th -- >> that's why i'm not chasing you. y i don't think it's fair to chase you about hospitals. they've got their own protocols and things. we've gotten to know each other now ooichlt not going to come at you unfairly. i understand the unbalance. people are so anxious to reopen in every possible way. it's hard. you've done a good job by everybody's assessment. let me ask you about something that's getting some temperature.

you're not opening up fast enough for some people, too fast for other people. tough spot, that's leadership, you wanted the job. the idea of masks in the retail sector, you say it's not going to be mandatory. you should wear masks when you're around, you advise, but when you go into the store you don't have to wear them. why does that matter? >> here's what we did. we put a working group together. there's this group, they came back and said all the businesses are opening up, all the ones na have been in place, everybody wears a mask. not only does every employee wear a mask, but anybody who's coming into these manufacturing companies and many of them are doing already, but this makes it complete. so, we're very happy about that. the issue was on retail. and what we have said is that employees should wear a mask. most grocery stores now are doing that anyway. but as we expand to jewelry stores and other things we want them to do that. where we really got the real push back quite candidly is when

we said look, we're going to mandate that consumer when you go into a jewelry store, go into a grocery store you're going to have to wear a mask. and it was quite candidly, pretty much an explosion. people felt fronted by that and felt that, you know, i had people say, look, you don't trust us. we can make our own decisions. and it was clear, chris, that that push back was sincere and tough. and frankly, we thought it might endanger a lot of the other things that we are trying to do. and so my hope is that everyone wears a mask. i've said, look, i go in public, i wear a mask. >> i've seen it. >> my advise my family to do that. because what this does is it protects the workers. and, you know, i had a lot of family members call me in the last few weeks about grocery stores. my son's in there. my dad's in there working.

i'm afraid for him. it just made sense for customers coming in to wear masks. i hope again -- i ho i'm talking to a lot of ohions. you have the right to not wear one but it is the right thing to do to protect people who are working there and the people who are serving us every single day. >> tough balance. tough call. we'll see how it goes. it's interesting. thank you for unpacking the dynamic because i want people to understand how this goes. i'm short on time but i want to ask you this. so, the president was hammering the decision to have mail-in voting. you made a different decision. have you seen any indication yet that mail-in ballots in any way corrupted your election? is there any proof of fraud that you've been told by your secretary of state or other precinct officials? >> well, i had the secretary of state frankel rose on our daily press conference to give the report and tell people they

still had until 7:30 tonight to bring it to the board of elections. we have seen no problem. i'm not aware of any problem that frank has told me about. i don't see a problem. we're used to doing this in ohio. we run absentee ballots not exclusively, but people have had the right for a long time to vote for an entire month absentee. and many people have gotten used to it and do it and our boards of election and everybody is used to dealing with it. >> governor, thank you very much. these are tough calls. and like i said, i know you're opening up on friday. i'm not going to chase you about the 14 days when you're talking about the hospitals. i don't think that's a fair basis of criticism. we'll see how it goes. you're always welcome here to make the case of what you're doing and how it's working. >> thanks chris. all right. now, here's what's not a tough call. you walk into a place, let alone a hospital, that has a mask rule, you better wear one.

the vice president wasn't wearing a mask at the mayo clinic like everybody else around him. i don't know if you've seen the picture. he has a rationale. let's see if that would work for anybody else and if it even makes sense. that's just the first point. we have a lot of things to talk about with dr. sanjay gupta next. ep, sprinting past every leak in our softest, smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you.

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in a now deleted tweet, the mayo clinic of minnesota wrote it had quote informed the vice president of the masking policy prior to his arrival today. you can delete a tweet. you can't delete reality. the vp was the only one who chose not to wear a mask. why not? here's how he explained it. >> when the cdc issued guidelines about wearing a mask, it was their recognition that people that may have the coronavirus could prevent the possibility of conveying the virus to someone else by wearing a mask. and since i don't have the coronavirus, i thought it would be a good opportunity for me to be here, to be able to speak to these researchers, these incredible health care personnel and look them in the eye and say thank you. >> does the mask cover your eyes? look, you can make an excuse for anything. let's bring in dr. sanjay gupta. this is a teachable moment.

of course you need to wear a mask. if you think you have 100% confidence because you tested negative once, twice, three times, isn't the reality that we don't know you're not 100% contagious when you test negative and that that test is only as good as the day it's on. >> no question. chris, i would be remissed if i didn't compliment you on the new do. looks really good. >> the missus did it. i don't want to say anything because i'll get in more trouble, but she did a pretty good job. she did the one here and here. >> i think she did a really nice job. >> she used a 2 and 4. she would probably yell at me if i get the numbers wrong. here was an 8 except for here because i wanted to leave a little coverage. so, she brushes it down and cut it with the scissors. thank you, sanjay. >> your wife has hidden talents. you're welcome.

she did pretty good. vice president pence, he should have worn a mask today. >> of course. >> there's no question about it. first of all it sets a good example. it's the policy of the hospital, right? this is the policy of the hospital. a lot of people get tested. i work at a hospital. i get tested. i still wear a mask. third of all, it's a hospital in the middle of a pandemic. i mean, there's a time when you wear a mask. he's seeing sick patients. this is potentially risky. but the two teaching points, i think you bring up are really important. when you get a negative test, that is a point in time. that is a point in time that you are negative. if he's getting tested periodically, that's great. but you don't really know. you could have another exposure and have no symptoms. second point i don't think we talk about enough. we talk a lot about the tests. a lot of the tests even the ones for the virus have a 15% false negative rate. so, this is something that's going to be increasingly large issue as we move forward. these tests got to work well if we're going to have top work

force 15% negativity rates are high rates. what do you say to people you have 85% chance this is correct but maybe you still have the virus. i hope he's negative. he looks like he doesn't have any symptoms, but those are teachable points. >> god willing we need our leaders healthy. look, i'm not in the gotcha game. i think it's a waste of time. i think people are turned off by it. all i'm saying is at some point you've got to start being able to take any kind of responsibility for anything that's negative at some point. i mean, this administration has never done a damn thing wrong ever, and they just can't own it. and i guarantee you people will find ways to defend them by attacking me but they won't own the obvious. but that's politics. let's move it to the side. i don't want to muddy you with politic. you're better than that. let me ask you what we understand about the data about

testing. president says we're going to be 5 million testing in no time. how? how can you explain that we're going to scale up as fast as he says even though that wouldn't even be enough. but can we get there that fast? >> i think i would have a hard time imagining how that would happen. let me show you the numbers in terms of where we are, where we need to be, and where we ultimately need to go. right now total, okay, 5.8 million tests total, what the white house says they're going to be doing as a result of the plans they released yesterday, about 2% roughly of the country a month, 6 to 7 million tests a month. what this new plan from harvard, the road map says 5 million tests a day by june and then 20 million tests a day by mid-summer. so, the white house plans 6 to 7 million tests a month. ultimately we need to be at 20 million a day. so, it's a whole magnitude of difference here in terms of where the goals are being set and where they need to be. and you know a lot of things

need to come together. if you're going to go from 6 million to potentially 600 million tests a month, you know there's all those reagents, the swabs, all the things that we've been talking about have to be in place. maybe there will be new break throughs in testing which would really help this equation. but this doesn't look like we're planning for what needs to be done right now. >> remember he's not going to do it. the states are going to do it and they're cash strapped. >> right. >> and it takes manpower. and the tracing has to go hand in hand with it because every time you get a negative you have to chase it down. that's why we're not talking about tracing. one thing, antibodies. what's the latest thinking on whether or not you have any cause to celebrate if god forbid you get covid and you get through it or don't even know you have it and you have antibodies? >> the honest answer is we don't know for sure right now in terms of whether or not it's going to give you protection and if it does how long or how strong. many people believe, and i think

with good reason, that it should behave like other viruses including other coronaviruses which means you will get some immunity for some period of time. i made the graph just to show you this, how the antibodies come about. the blue line is the symptoms and infection. green line is igm. people are going to start knowing these terms they never thought they would have to know before. the red line is igg. you can see the two antibodies cross over for a period of time. i think you said you had both, if i remember what you said yesterday. >> yeah. i have a whole level of igm -- >> yep. low level of igm and you have idg. so, you're probably -- i wouldn't be surprised if you still had some mild symptoms because you're still in that sort of out of the window of active infection but still symptomatic a little bit according to that graph. everyone's different obviously. but i just wanted you to see where you probably are in the trajectory of your illness, chris. >> very helpful. i tell you what, we'll talk

offline. i had that blood panel done. i think you'll learn this virus is doing all kinds of kra si stuff to us because my blood work is coocoo. nobody would understand anyway and they don't care but i'll talk to you about it offline. this is going to take a while to get back to where you were before you got the virus. let me ask you something else. meat. >> yeah. >> this idea of tyson saying listen, we've got a problem here because we've got a lot of workers in tight spaces where it's tough to keep -- and the president says, i've got this. i'll basically make them essential workers and they have to go back to work. the workers are like whoa, we can't be kept safe. this is tough. what's the balancing test here? how do you do this right? >> this is awe really tough one because there's something besides just distance in this equation. that's something we've talked about. the cdc has a set of guidelines just for this industry. people should look at this.

but you can see how seriously the cdc is trying to take this as well. problem is you have distance six feet but also duration. this is why restaurants are potentially problematic because you sit somewhere for an hour or so potentially in proximity even if you're distant away, it's duration, prolonged contact that seems to be abit of an issue as well. that goes back to the meat packing. people are next to each other. i watched these videos in tyson in terms of how things are done and people are standing next to each other hours on end. how to separate people and cut down and still manufacture the way you need to manufacture. i don't know. it's channelling. and people have died who work for the company. and sthaethat sends a psycholog wave through things as well. people are frightened understandably they might contract the virus. >> tyson's own numbers had thousands of people being infected by the virus. this is going to be a tough call. people are going to be unhappy no matter what in this

situation. but this is really the biggest potential blow to the food supply chain that we've seen. this is something we're going to have to watch closely because it is a very tough set of circumstances. sanjay gupta, thank you for being the best of us as always. >> see you soon, buddy. >> all right. the president insists we have enough testing to begin reopening america again. now, by the way, that can't be right. but that answer isn't enough either. the math will tell the story. my next guest says it's going to take tens of billions to properly test and trace. remember, they're not talking about tracing yet. we have to. it matters as much as the testing, okay? to isolate those who have it and who they may have spread it to. there's a plan for congress that we're going to float past you. what do you think about it. let's see next.

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all right. so, now we're talking testing. great. because testing is huge. but here's the reality. we will need more testing than anybody is talking about no matter what numbers they're throwing around in the federal level or they're planning for. we're still nowhere close. now, here's the other word that you just have to put into your vocabulary on this. tracing. why? because for every positive case you get, what about the people they've been in contact with? who's going to find them? those are all potential positive cases. you're not hearing about it. why? it's another scary thing this government is shy on and it takes manpower and manpower takes money. i know this is uncomfortable for a lot of leaders. that's too bad. we have to be talking about it.

it's going to make a big difference in how our new normal looks. andy, welcome back to "prime time." thank you for being with us. first of all, number one, throwing out impressive numbers about how they want to ramp up testing at the federal level and how they'll carry through the to the states. the numbers are still nowhere near what experts who are looking at this suggest we have to do to have any real sense of how we're doing with this virus in real time. >> yeah, i think it's going to be a few months. and look, even in a few months' time we're not going to be able to test everybody who wants one. we just saw data today which showed 92% of people who wanted a test were not able to get one. now, i think that's probably better today than it was then, but it's still nowhere close to what the president said which is that everybody who wants a test should be able to get one. and that's what we need to aim for. >> right, and look.

even if they had the raw number of tests they need which they don't, that's a disingenuous answer because it's not just about having the tests. it's about the things that go along with it, the the reagent and all the different things to apply the test, the labs to process, the manpower to process, all that part. and then you have tracing. now, you tutored me early on in why nobody was talking about tracing. it's too hard. and it was too scary because it's too hard to find the people and it takes a lot of time. and every day that you can't find somebody is another day they're infecting more people and it's just better to ignore this. but we can't ignore it anymore, can we? >> look, i think the hope is that once we get the number of cases under control, that what we've been living through, chris, particularly in new york has been a rabid forest fire. we're not going to get rid of covid-19. but what we can do is hope that

every time we can manage it to little campfires. we see a little campfire, we can surround it, put stones around it, water the ground. that's what this is all about. it's about making sure that we have small number of cases and that if i get sick and i find out that i'm sick that somebody helps me figure out who are all the people that i was in contact with in some sort of systematic way because i don't want them to get sick. and that's what we're talking about here. we put a proposal together in front of congress yesterday that we hope they act on, that i think is going to help. >> that's what i'm reading about while you're talking. slab bit and scott got lee, another big brain that's worked on this. 46.5 billion for tracing and isolating, 12 billion to help expand the contact tracing work force by 180,000 people. 4.5 billion to use vacant hotels to isolate the people that you wind up tracing and finding out

need to be monitored/tested. 30 billion over 18 months of income support. 30 billion to offer 18 months of income support per person stipend like 30 bucks a day like jury duty for those self-isolating. the political push back will be are you crazy? all this money, all these people for what? we'll just test and we're never going to get to zero. you guys are being hypersensitive. this is not a science test. it's not an academic discussion at harvard. this is reality. get with it. >> well, this is why we pulled together -- scott and i pulled together 14 other people including larry brilliant, the guy who cured smallpox, the guy who helped prevent aids from spreading by doing the contact tracing. and people from both parties, we talked to congress. we talked to the white house. we wanted to get their concerns and indeed people have

legitimate concerns. and we think we addressed all of them. fundamentally by saying number one we will help you in a private secure way figure out who you've been in contact with so you don't spread this around. number two, if you need to isolate and you don't have room at home because you don't have a big enough house, you've got a one bedroom apartment, you live with your grandmother, we will put you in a nice hotel space. you can watch chris cuomo at night, two weeks of cable until you're better. third, for people who live paycheck to paycheck and their employer is not going to be able to pay them, they're not going to be able to socially isolate. for those two weeks those people are performing a civil service. they're keeping the rest of us healthy. we think to pay them a small stipend, kind of like jury duty, and that way i think we'll be able to contain this virus. with the people who signed this letter and the conversations we had, i'm very hopeful that it comes across as a practical

solution. and it's also a stimulus for the economy. >> why is it a stimulus for the economy? zblirs zbli >> first of all i think getting 150,000 people working is not nothing. we'll also put $5 billion into the hotel and motel industry because they've got a lot of vacant rooms. and we'll put money in peoples' pockets that needs to be there. but even more so, chris, this will help us open up the economy faster because once we're able to test and trace, you can look around and say wait a minute, i feel safer. i feel like i can go to work. i feel like i may be able to bring my employees back. i feel like maybe i can work again because i know not that there won't be any covid-19, if there is any they'll be able to find out who it is and impacted. it's that feeling of safety to give back to the people of the country. >> let's talk about the last part because i think it's the big x factor which is how will americans feel with more cases?

i think it's the hardest thing to measure. we're all freaked out when this happened. we didn't want any cases. everybody stayed home because they didn't want to get sick. i suggest to you and i want your better take that's going to fade and peoples' appetites for doing what they want to do will overwhelm what is needed to do to keep cases really low. and they'll say but you know what, i'm okay with it? and yeah, i know that there's still more cases. i know cases are coming. i know it's taking longer because i want to do these things but i want to do these things. i know people are dying but i'm okay with it. fatigue. i think the society should have whatever morays the masses suggests is that it's going to be minorities and people in socioeconomics and tough spots with pre-existing conditions that live in impoverished areas paying the biggest price. it's going to be an even bugger

distribution. that x factor of fatigue, of concern, is that one of the big things to watch? >> obviously. it's hard on everybody. if it's not hard economically, it's hard sociologically. we're used to having our support system around us. we haven't had that. on the other hand i've got to tell you i could not be more impressed with the way the american public has responded to this threat. i think there has been a unity, a sense of sacrifice. i think quite frankly lots of lives have been saved. we spared our hospitals from being overrun by and large. we're giving our scientists time. and the public really pulled together. yes, there's protests on tv and yes there's all kinds of angst. there's reliable polls show that 80% of people believe in what they've been doing. i think that will fade over time, chris.

it has to. people can't keep this up forever. but i have to say it's been incredibly impressive and incredibly encouraging. and i think hopefully at least some of that spirit of comradery, community will last. >> right. and look, andy, first of all, thank you for coming on the show and explaining this. it's provocative what you're talking about. but we have to talk about tracing and isolating. it's as important as the testing. they all go together. we're just not talking about them much because they create political risk for people. and we're in an environment where our leaders especially up top take as little risk as they can. i say all the time nobody got it wrong. the american people got it right. they did things that couldn't be predicted in the projections initially. we did better than anyone would have expected. how we will do going forward remains to be seen. andy, i love you, and thank you. look, everybody knows we've got to do more, literally, we are going to have to continue to step up and continue to fore bear. but nobody is putting themselves

on the line the way our health care workers are. and nobody's paying the price the way they are. we just lost a doctor who actually survived her own covid battle. she then took her own life this weekend. why? because that's how hard it is and that's how many are hurting. the emotional toll, psychological toll, the mental health toll of this virus attacks every bit as much as the virus attacks us physically, and we're ignoring it and i don't want to do that tonight. she deserves better. we have her father here tonight. she was in the trenches. she wants to tell her story about what it is that killed her and what you need to know about how she lived her life. next.

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i hope by now you are aware that this virus is attacking our body completely, and that includes our minds, our emotions. every bit as it does any other organ and system in the body. health care workers, especially the ones on the front lines, they're feeling this more than most. distress calls are up. we see it in the data. people are being killed from the mental and emotional toll. it just happened to one of our

heroes this past sunday. dr. lorna breen. the doctor treated covid patients at new york presbyterian hospital. by all accounts she was well-respected, and by all accounts she stepped up be with the best during the worst of this. she even contracted covid herself, dealt with it. as soon as she was better, she went back to work. and then after all she did for others, sunday she died by suicide. her father says she was killed by the enemy on the front lines, and i'm sad to say he's right. he is a retired surgeon. his name is dr. phillip breen. doctor, i am very sorry to meet you under these circumstances and i hope you accept not just

my condolences but my thanks for your daughter in the city where i and so many other millions live for doing the work of keeping so many safe, especially when it came at such a cost to her and to you, her family. thank you, sir. >> you're very welcome. >> what do people need to know about who your daughter was and what she was about? >> well, she was a doctor, every bit of the word that a doctor should be. she put her life on the line to take care of other people. she was in the trenches, so to speak, right in the front lines. people were dying left and right around her. and indeed as you pointed out, she contracted the virus herself, went home sick, had it proven she did have the virus and indeed stayed home for just a little more than a week which i don't think was enough in hindsight. but she -- i think she felt an

overwhelming sense of wanting to help her colleagues and her friends who were still fighting the good fight. so, she strapped on her hardest and took the bit in her mouth and she went back. and she -- i talked to her just before her final 12-hour shift. and during the time she was on that shift she basically went down like a horse that had pulled too heavy a load and couldn't go a step further and went down. so, she went down. she was retrieved and brought back to charlottesville, virginia where she was hospitalized for a brief period of time, just well enough to be out on her own, but clearly was not better. and her sisters told me that you could see in her eyes that there was something not there. but any rate, as of sunday, she took her own life because i think she was tired and she was

the kind of person that somebody very aptly put it, she was like the fireman who runs into the burning building to save another life and doesn't regard anything about herself. she's been in the trenches. >> doctor, i can't imagine what it's like for you to have to talk through this about your own child. but at least you have the legacy of her commitment, following in your footsteps and creating her own path. and just so people understand, before this experience was the doctor struggling with anything that was known to you -- >> no, not at all. as a matter of fact, we talked about it quite a bit before and during and we have reviewed the other members of the family and concluded that if we ever were trying to prognosticate about who would be solid, lauren would

have been the very last person to have lost herrick librium, so to speak. she had not one scintilla of emotional problem or stress or anything. she was a very outgoing person. she was a snowboarder. she played the cello in one of the orchestras in town. she volunteered at a nursing home. she was a salsa dancer. she just did everything. and everybody thought she was really neat, including me. but when she went she just ran out of steam completely. and like i say, in my mind it's sort of like a horse trying to pull a heavy load, and she was beaten to the point where she went right down on her knees right between the reins and with the bit in her mouth and died from trying to help. >> of course you understand all this because you are a clinician. you are a doctor. but a virus like this first of all a huge unknown. we don't understand how it affects the body.

but the idea that it would affect your emotions and how you feel and your mental health as well as it would your physical health makes complete sense but we're just not focused on it. what do you make of that? >> well, here's what i make of that. the point is that the majority of patients who are dying are dying a pulmonary death, they're basically drowning because their lungs have filled with fluid, and a lot has been put on that. but increasingly in the literature and i think when this is all said and done it's going to be a gathering of publication evidence that this virus affects the person's mind as well as their physical being like their lungs and that it's worked on the brains of people who have been sick but didn't identify it to begin with. lorna would be an example of someone who is a poster child for proving that this virus is indeed working on people's minds

and psychology equilibrium and wreaking great havoc. but this remains to come into the literature as time goes on. it hasn't really gotten prevalent right now. >> doctor, i must say, i really admire your courage and your poise. i know you've seen a lot. i know you're a surgeon. i also know it's different when it's your own family. so once again, just let me say, i'm not going to belabor this, but your daughter by all accounts was not just beautiful inside and out but she lived a beautiful life. and i just hope you can accept the thanks of people like me and so many whom she helped in this city during a time of really profound need. and i hope that is her legacy in a young but very full life. doctor, i am so sorry for your loss. >> thank you very much. i would be remiss by not pointing out that even as we

speak there are thousands of people just like her in the front lines doing physical battle with the enemy and getting no recognition, no reward, no nothing for it. so my hat goes off to all these people who are doing their best to do a good job to take care of their fellow man without question about what they're doing to themselves. >> that's very magnanimous of you, to want others included at a time of your own personal loss, and you are of course correct. and there are also too many who suffer in silence about the mental and emotional effects of this virus and other illnesses. and we will make sure that we talk about it much more than we have already. dr. breen, please extend my condolences to the family and let me know if there's anything we can do. >> very kind of you to say so, and thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. and listen, let's just start right now.

okay? people are suffering in silence. the doctor is of course right. we're not given enough credit or support to the people fighting this battle for us most acutely. but i want to remind you, if you're taking a toll because of the virus or just because of the experience that we're all living through, it's so traumatic in so many different ways, the national suicide prevention lifeline is always there. 1-800-273-talk. 1-800-273-talk. that's 1-800-273-8255. once again tonight, i'll put it out on social media. and look, don't roll your eyes. don't roll your eyes. it's as real as any manifestation of illness. mind, body, spirit. it is all vulnerable. now, let's keep honoring those on the front lines. all right? as an homage, as honoring the loss of dr. lorna breen. how some of our heroes are helping raise the spirits of one

another, next.

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hey, i wanted don here for this. not just because he's taking over the show right now with "cnn tonight," but he loves a moment like this. people showing their thank yous to health care pros and first responders in new york city. of course the virus epicenter. but this afternoon they saluted each other at one hospital. look at this. [ cheers and applause ] now, let me tell you what's happening here. the daughter of a veteran wanted to honor all the people at the long island state veterans home at stoney brook university in new york this past saturday. somebody told me on the radio today, i said you got video? she said yes. she sent it to me, and that was a beautiful way, don, not just