good evening. hope as well as uncertainty as fda approves first emergency use for treatment of coronavirus not a cure but gileda science's

remdesivir has been shown to reduce mortality rate and reduction of illness. dr. birx said of the development, i quote, this is our first really positive step forward. going to have more on that in just a moment. it's one of several milestones we want to discuss tonight. this week, the country reached a million cases of the coronavirus. currently, more than 1.1 million cases. more than 64,000 people have died in this country. every day, thousands more lives are added to that figure. nevertheless, by this weekend, at least 32 states will have begun to partially reopen. gavin newsom saying today he is no longer weeks but days away from beginning to lift some restrictions to the state's stay-at-home order. this afternoon, mississippi governor tate reeves decided not to go forward with his plan for a partial reopening in the state. he said he reversed himself after the state reported its largest-yet increase in new cases. according to the governor, this thing's not over. we are not out of the woods yet.

what the weeks and months ahead will look like, that we do not know. we know social distancing will still be key. we also know testing is important. the cdc issued a report today looking back at how the virus spread so quickly through the country and one key factor was the lack of widespread testing. looking forward, the report said even in regions of the country with the largest number of cases, quote, most persons have not been infected and remain susceptible. on wednesday, president trump downplayed the need for large-scale testing. quoting the president, he said i don't know that all that is even necessary. for more on the cdc report and the news governor newsom made today about california reopening, want to go to nick watt in los angeles. so what are you learning? what's the latest? >> well, anderson, itse was 43 days ago that governor newsom told everyone in california to stay home. and, now, he says we are just days, not weeks, away from him lifting some of those restrictions. retail and restaurants will, probably, be the first to open.

but, as he says, with some serious modifications, which they're working on now. that cdc report you mentioned, interestingly, people are supposed to be using that going forward, to inform how we reopen. what they did is they went back to february, when we only had 14 cases, and they looked at what we did between then and about the beginning of last week to figure out what we did, how we did it, and perhaps what we could have done differently. >> limited testing. the continued influx of infected traffickers fr travelers from overseas hotspots. and large events like a conference in boston, funeral in georgia, mardi gras in new orleans, all, fueled the devastating, early spread of this virus, here in the u.s. this, according to a just-released report written by the cdc's principal deputy director. apparently, flu season also made it hard to detect some early clusters in the early introduction of this virus into nursing homes, meat-packing

plants, and dense, urban areas like new york city, accelerated transmission. this virus might circulate among us for another two years, says one new study. until 60 to 70% of us are infected. >> this is going to continue to be a rolling situation throughout the world, not just our country, for these months ahead. so expect many more new yorks to occur. it's very likely they will. >> the u.s. death count doubled these past two weeks and one newly updated model from northeastern university now suggests 100,000 people, in this country, will die by midsummer. but, this morning, in katie, texas, a line at snappy's cafe and grill, today, restaurants, movie theaters, and malls can reopen in the state at a quarter capacity. >> beginning to see the beaches open. beginning to see guests on the beach. >> but up in dallas county yesterday, nearly 180 new cases. the biggest single-day spike

they've seen. since all this began. >> we're reopening today, and it does feel like a bit of a gamble. >> partial opening now underway in at least 32 states. but it doesn't appear any of them meet white house guidelines that states have a downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period. >> there are some states, some cities, or what have you, who are looking at that and kind of leapfrogging over the first checkpoint. i mean, obviously, you could get away with that. but you're making a really significant risk. >> meanwhile, with ongoing outbreaks at meat-processing plants slowing production, some military commissaries now limiting how much meat shoppers can buy. down in florida, they'll start reopening monday, with restaurants and retail. but the state's three largest and hardest-hit counties are excluded. >> i don't know that we're going to be able to open up our beaches, really, before june. >> meanwhile, in michigan. the governor in the shadow of

armed protestors at the capitol extended her state's st stay-at-home order through may 28th. >> yesterday's scene at the capitol was disturbing, to be quite honest. swastikas and confederate flags, nooses and automatic rifles do not represent who we are as michiganders. >> anderson, you mentioned we don't really know what the next few months are going to look like. they're, also, going to look very different, in different places. you know, south carolina started reopening about ten days ago. we just heard from governor inslee up in washington state. he's not going to start opening anything until the middle of this month. interestingly, among the first things he is going to allow, drive-in spiritual services with one family per car. but this is key. he, also, extended washington state's stay-home order for another four weeks. anderson. >> nick watt, thanks very much. cnn chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta joins me now.

so, sanjay, how significant is the fda's move to allow widespread use of this drug remdesivir? >> i think we -- we pretty much anticipated this. it's -- it's a significant move because there hasn't been any other medication, anything else, that really treats this. this virus, as you know, anderson. so what this -- this medication shows is a proof of concept that something can, actually, affect this virus. anderson, you and i were talking, i remember, a couple weeks ago with magic johnson about azt and the idea that when azt came out, it wasn't the panacea but it was such an important start upon which other medication regimens were, then, built. my guess is the same thing's going to happen here. this is going to be maybe a particular medication that's complemented by other medications. other medications that may act on other parts of the disease, besides the -- the viral replication itself. so we'll see. but, i think this eua or this emergency-use authorization was pretty expected, anderson. >> so, tomorrow, as of tomorrow, there is going to be at least 32

states easing some restrictions. somewhat. to varying degrees. dr. fauci last night told us on our town hall that it was a gamble. how long before we know what the sort of effect of that gamble is in terms of cases? >> yeah. you know, i mean, that's the thing is that typically, because of the way the testing's done right now, people aren't getting tested until they develop symptoms and -- or sometimes not getting tested until they show up in the hospital. so the time period between when someone is exposed to this virus and the time they develop symptoms can vary. but it can be up to a couple weeks, as you know, that is wrae that 14-day incubation period comes from. can be shorter than that. and then if nthey go to the hospital, if could be a week after that. and then sadly, if they die, maybe another week after that. so you're talking when you start to look at the -- the -- the this tragic death count, when it starts to go up, will sort of be a snapshot in time from three to

four weeks earlier. and that's a concern, anderson, because i think a lot of these states reopen and for the next couple weeks, they're going to say, look, there's really no change in the overall hospitalization or death rates. but we got to keep an eye on that. >> the new report from the cdc about what fueled the spread of the coronavirus, mentioning the lack of testing, early on. it's also sort of reminding me what bill gates was saying to us last night in the town hall. the white house talks about tests every day and he was basically saying that was a phony number because a lot of those tests require more than two days or so. it's three, four, a week later by the time you get results. and by then, essentially that test is useless because that person's been exposed to a whole bunch of other people. >> yeah. i mean, that -- that -- that's the question. so until we can get these rapid tests up and running, and make sure they're accurate, because some of those have a very high false-negative rate. what do you do with people who

just got tested then? are they basically told to isolate themselves until the test result comes back? it's challenging. that means every time someone even just gets a test, they're two or three days out of the workforce or out of their lives as we -- as we reopen the economy. so these tests have got to become faster and -- and i also think more accurate, anderson. i think that's one of the things that perhaps doesn't get discussed enough. a 15% false-negative rate on a diagnostic test is significant. how do you have the confidence, then, that i am truly negative and this is not a false negative? >> so what else about the new cdc report kind of stood out to you about what fueled the spread? >> i think this sort of -- these genomic analysis is really fascinating. i mean, it gives you an idea of a sort of picture now and a story of what exactly happened. when the virus arrived, where did it spread, not surprisingly spread in areas where there was

clusters of people. people in nursing homes, at large conferences. but, you know, anderson, the virus is largely stable. but it has these little, tiny mutations on it. it is' kind of like thinking of a family. you know, all human beings share shar share -- are genetically, very similar. but then families are slightly different. what was it about these families? what did we learn in new york? the virus primarily came from europe. on the west coast, it primarily came from china. we realized that the first patient was diagnosed, confirmed diagnosis, january 21st in washington. but then, six weeks later, we saw a descendent of that same virus that infected that first patient, infecting other people. which meant the virus had been circulating in seattle for six weeks out in the community at that point. so these types of analyses really do tell an important story of exactly what the virus did in this country. >> the cdc doctor wroetd the report, quote, what we do this

summer is going to be critical. and that's certainly one of the big unknowns. whether people will resist the urge to go back to full-fledged socializing this summer and the impact that could have. and i mean, again, back to the idea that it's going to be weeks before, you know, locale, whether they see the impact of that or not. or what the impact is. >> yeah. we get the sense of what 's happening by looking at the narrative of this virus, thus far, now over the last few months of what it's doing, how it's spreading and it's out there. i mean, that's one of the things that really jumps out from the cdc report. the virus is the constant in the equation, in the sense that it's still circulating. if we start to go back, we might get a little bit of benefit from the fact that the weather is wormer and more humid. but the vast majority of people in this country are susceptible to this virus. unlike the flu, where even if you didn't get the vaccine, you still might have a little bit of protection because you're exposed to it in years past. you might still have some

protection. you might have protection because people around you got the flu shot. and that gives you some herd immunity. we don't have any of that protection here. there may be a little benefit from the summer weather but not enough to counteract what's likely to happen this wiwith th virus. >> sanjay, thanks very much. i want to bring in a learning executive, his writings have been really extraordinarily important over the last weeks and months. his posts on medium title "coronavirus why you must act now" was prescient, incredibly influential. i really learn so much reading all his writings. been read tens of millions of times. thomas joins us now. so, in your estimation, how much testing is really going to be needed to be able to reopen to whatever degree and to keep the virus at bay? >> it's -- it's very hard to do -- to say exactly. but we have a good sense of that. and, by looking at what countries that are successful

are doing. you look at south korea, and the number of tests they have is 100 for each one of the positive cases or 100 to 1, 100 to 3. something like that. we just mentioned cases a day but maybe you need two tests per person because you can't have a lot of confidence. so maybe we are only having 100,000 people really tested every day. that compares to 30,000 cases we have. if you need that ratio to be 1 to 33, 1 to 50, but you need at least a million people tested, which means at least 2 million tests. so we need ten times the number of tests that we're doing today. >> 2 million every day. >> that's right. with the number of cases that we have. now, obviously, hopefully, these cases are going to be going down. and so the fewer people are positive, the fewer tests you need. >> you write, also, a lot about the speed of testing and how essential that is. i was talking about that with sanjay. bill gates last night was

essentially saying this 200,000 number, it's just a phony number because the results just take too long. without a quick result, there's just so much potential to infect many more people. >> that's right. and so you -- most of the contagion happens in the first few days. around the first three, four days, you have presymptomatic contagion people who are not even coughing, who don't have fever, that are already transmitting this. and then you also have people without symptoms, and they are also mostly contagious within three, four, five, days. if it takes you five days to identify these people, they've already created all the infections that they are going to -- to -- to be creating. and so you need the tests to be very quick, to isolate the people who are positive. unless, obviously, you isolate these people even before you know they're positive or not. but, not only that, you also need to do contact tracing

because the people who don't have symptoms yet, you also need to identify these people, immediate immediately test them, and immediately quarantine or isolate them if they're positive. there is a research that showed that if you take three days to -- to identify cases and three days to identify their contacts, all of that work, was really not doing anything, or very little, to reduce the transmission. so really speed is of the essence. >> obviously, there is what would happen in the ideal world, and there's what happens in reality and the real world, with all its messiness. just moving forward, as things reopen, i mean, i can't quite wrap my head around how does a big company, say they have, you know, 5,000 employees, 10,000 employees, if they don't have onsite, instant testing or, you know, immediate testing, with very quick results, 15 minutes or something, how do they, in any confidence, really, fully open back up? even with social distancing. because if somebody starts coughing in the office, and if

they can't send that person to immediately get tested, you know, nearby, and get a result. you know, how does that even work? >> here, we're going back to -- right. if you can use the intelligent measures, that's perfect. but, if you can't you are forced to have the heavy economic measures. right? so you're right that if we can't be intelligent, we will need to be very stringent with companies. but companies have a lot of things that it can do. right? the no brainer is masks. wearing masks is proven to, or as science believes, as of today, that it can reduce, very substantially, the transmission rate. if you mandated everybody to be wearing masks, you can have a major impact. if you mandate, for example, meetings should not be held with more than a few people. they should not be held for hours. people should not be sitting face to face. right. if you can have screens that

protect people. all these are measures that are going to be contributing to reducing the transmission rate. and those are the intelligent measures that you can do so you don't need to pay for the expensive measures. >> thomas, again, i really appreciate your writing. it's been really helpful and extraordinary. >> congratulations. >> thank you. i'm very lucky. still ahead, more on remdesivir, what it means for those with the disease. also, how close are we to a vaccine? we'll have more on that. also, later, president trump and his allies pushing an unsubstantiated theory that the coronavirus escaped from a lab in wuhan, china. former secretary of state joins me to discuss what we know and what we don't know. 'm confused. confused about what, everything ok? yeah, i only see one price on my phone bill. that doesn't sound confusing mama. you're on t-mobile, taxes and fees are included. oh come on, there's always extra fees! not on t-mobile mama. why can't all my bills be like this? i don't know mama. bye mama, love you. anthony? umph! at t-mobile, taxes and fees are included.

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mentioned remdesivir. it's not a cure but it is showing promise as a treatment. president trump called the drug, quote, a very promising situation. and the makers of remdesivir, gilead sciences say they will donate. so how unusual is it for the fda to issue an emergency-use authorization? >> you know, it is unusual, anderson, because you need to have a real emergency. for example, the zika outbreak of a couple years ago or 2009 when we had h1n1 flu. that would qualify. even though this pandemic has been going on for months now, anderson, this is the first emergency-use authorization for a treatment for covid-19. it took us this long to find

something that works. to be clear, not a blockbuster drug, not a knockout drug. my friend and colleague sanjay was talking about that just moments ago. but it does seem to lessen the amount of time it takes people to recover. >> do we know, i mean, how does this work? what part of the disease is it treating? the virus, is it treating? >> right, so the virus needs certain enzymes in order to replicate. in order to copy itself and continue sort of basically flooding your body. and so this drug basically works on one of those enzymes. it basically deactivates it so that it can't work or that it doesn't work as well so that the virus -- the virus doesn't replicate as well. again, it doesn't completely conk the virus out because people who took this drug, they still got sick. some of them, sadly, still died. but that's the way that it works. now, what they're hoping is that now that we have figured out that this pathway actually works, this drug did something, can we come up with other drugs that might work even better?

and remember, anderson, this drug was designed for ebola. and it has -- it seems to have some effect on covid. so maybe now that we can design something specifically for covid, we could do even better. >> so did it go through all the sort of testing and testing potential side effects for ebola? and do we know anything about side effects using it as a treatment this time around? >> you know, it's interesting because when they did it for ebola, one of the things they learned -- well, they learned that it didn't work for ebola. but they learned that the side-effect profile, as it's called in medicine, was really quite good. they did find some concerns about elevated liver enzymes but that is often very reversible. so the side-effect profile is looking good which is one of reasons why the fda felt good doing this. of course you don't want to harm people and looks like this one doesn't harm people. but, now that we're about to give it to this huge group of people, you still have to keep an eye on that because we are giving it to such a larger group, there may be rare side effects that might show up.

so to answer your question, anderson, this did not go through the usual rigors of fda approval. that takes months, or even years. and, in an emergency like this, we don't have that much time. so this was done based on a study of just over a thousand people. usually, we include many more people in these fda-approval clinical trials. in this case, we had the time to do just over a thousand. >> elizabeth cohen. elizabeth, thanks so much. doctors cnn have spoken with are already planning to use remdesivir, including washington which witnessed one of the early outbreaks of the disease. >> every patient will receive remdesivir because the first trial, act one, showed benefit. shortened the course of illness. and, almost statistically significantly,showed a decrease in mortality. but there was a clear trend towards benefit, in terms of mortality, as well. almost significant reduction,

statistically. but, clinically, a fairly dramatic decrease in mortality. >> joining me now is dr. lloyd minor. dean of the stanford university school of medicine, who's been running clinical trials on remdesivir. as someone who participated in the trials, how significant is the fda's emergency-use authorization? >> well, thank you, anderson. it's good to be with you. i think it's quite significant. it's important to remember that the authorization is for hospitalized patients, with moderate to severe consequences of covid-19 infection. that is, they're either having poor oxygen saturation or they're requiring supplemental oxygen. so it's very significant in that population. and, as you heard earlier on your program, it could, now, serve as an anchor drug, with other drugs being added, in an adaptive clinical-trial fashion, to look at how the efficacy of the treatment could be improved even more in the inpatient setting. it's not a silver bullet but it's certainly a step forward.

>> so just in terms of -- i mean, now that doctors have greenlit this, in terms of who can be treated, you talk about being in hospital setting. somebody who is at home, who believes they are sick or worried about getting sick, this is not something they can just go to their doctor, call up the doctor, and the doctor will prescribe for them. >> that's correct, it's not. there is a lot of focus, here at stanford and other centers, on outpatient therapies for covid-19. we have an approved clinical trial on a drug that modulates the immune system and we believe may improve the ability of the immune system, to fight off the effects of the virus. we need to find more effective -- well, we need to find an effective or more effective outpatient treatments because right now we don't have anything in the outpatient setting. and ultimately, we want to be able to keep people out of the hospital, enable them to combat the virus at home, and recover well at home, without requiring

hospitalization. >> so when -- how is remdesivir? given -- it's a shot, i assume. how quickly does it start to take effect? and what sort of effects does it have, have you seen? >> it's an intravenous medication, and the effects, it's not immediate. it's not as if you give one dose of the medicine, and then all of a sudden, everything turns around. we did run a trial here, showing that a five-day course was as effective as a ten-day course. in terms of the number of treatment milestones. but it acts by blocking the replication of the virus. in other words, it interferes with the ability of the virus to reproduce itself. and the way this virus causes illness and -- and adverse consequences is by taking over the machinery of cells. and, in so doing, interfering with a lot of important body functions, as well as the spread of the virus to other organs, as well. >> dr. fauci, you know, warned

it's not a knockout. i assume you agree with that, that it does have limitations. >> yes, yes, it does have limitations. the trial -- the nih trial showed that there was a reduction in the time to recovery of about 31% reduction in time to recovery. and, also, there was an indication that, perhaps, there is an improvement, a lowering of mortality rate. but that did not reach statistical significance. so this is not a drug that you give one dose or two doses, and then the drug -- the disease goes away. it is reminiscent of the early days, the treatment, of hiv where the initial drug was azt. it was certainly better than -- than -- than anything we'd had before because nothing before azt was effective. but, now, of course, we've moved into far more effective therapies with hiv. but if we hadn't had that first step with azt, we probably wouldn't have gotten the

subsequent steps. >> didn't azt, though, for the people who took it, end up getting hurt by it? or i might -- my history might be a little bit murky. but i seem to recall a lot of those people took it early on had difficulty actually getting benefits from the drug cocktail, which azt was an important part of later on. >> that's right. there were a lot of modifications in treatment profiles. but, you know, hiv was coming onto the scene early in my medical career. and i think it's remarkable that, over the course of the past three decades, we've transformed a disease that had been 100% fatal to, now, a disease that's successfully managed. and, also, we have preventative therapies for. i don't think it's going to take 30 years with sars covi 2. we know a lot more now than we did at the beginning of the hiv epidemic. but, just as there wasn't an initial treatment in hiv that covered everything we needed to cover, we're clearly going to see the same here with

remdesivir and sars covi 2. >> it's extraordinary, hiv now, for the generation coming of age now, you know, it's, a, something that can be avoided altogether. and it's, also, something that can be treated and is a chronic condition. let's hope, one day, this virus has that same sort of -- that there is a treatment for it as well. dr. minor, thank you so much. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. congratulations on the birth of your son. >> thanks so much. appreciate it. up next, white house still pressing its claim that china is behind the spread of the coronavirus even as the intelligence community says it believes the virus is not manmade. we'll have more on that from jim acosta in a moment. complete financial plans. they're all possible with a cfp® professional. find yours at letsmakeaplan.org.

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president trump continues to hint he will retaliate against china for what he sees as its role in spreading coronavirus. raising tariffs on goods is, quote, an option because of quote what he said is a bad situation all over the world. keep in mind, the president saying this only a day after his own intelligence community rejected the notion that the virus was made in a laboratory. here's what the office of the director of national intelligence said and i quote the intelligence community also concurs the wide consensus that the covid-19 virus was not manmade or genetically modified. first, there is breaking news from there. the administration says it will stop dr. anthony fauci from testifying on capitol hill. so, jim, let's start there. what is happening with dr. fauci? >> yeah, pretty significant news, late on a friday, anderson. the white house confirmed, earlier this evening, that they are going to block dr. anthony

fauci from testifying in front of the house appropriations committee next week. keep in mind, these lawmakers are coming back to washington next week to hold hearings on all sort of things. and some of these lawmakers are obviously putting their health at risk coming back to d.c. in the middle of a pandemic. and dr. fauch was going to be asked about a whole host of issues, including on testing. gu accordi but according to a white house official we spoke with earlier this evening, they are saying that would be counterproductive for dr. fauci. keep in mind, this is the same dr. fauci who sat through a bunch of the president's coronavirus task force briefings, that sometimes lasted more than two hours. and so dr. fauci's time was spent in that fashion over the last several weeks. but they can't -- the white house is saying they can't send him up to capitol hill to answer questions from lawmakers on something as important as the pandemic. there is a contradiction there, no question about it. >> and they control -- they control this sort of thing? i mean, he has to do what the vice president's office says? >> at this point, yes. we have not reached any kind of

point, yet, where lawmakers are talking about subpoenaing dr. fauci. and i suppose, at this point, yes, they can block him from going up there and testifying. we haven't heard the last word on this, obviously. but, at this point, it sounds as though the white house will be successful in blocking dr. fauci from going up there. >> so i understand you have new reporting about president trump and china. >> yeah. anderson, you'll recall yesterday when the president was asked whether he had confidence that this virus somehow started in a lab in wuhan, china, and the president said he had confidence in that. yes. that appeared to contradict a statement yesterday saying they were looking at two different options. one, that it started in a lab or that it began from transmission from animal to human. i talked to a senior administration official today who said wait a minute, there is no contradiction here. the two are in line with one another. and according to this official, it is the majority believe, it is the belief of the majority of the intelligence community at

this point, according to the senior administration official, that it somehow originated in a lab, possibly through a mishap or mistake in handling the virus in the lab. now, that is according to the senior administration official, who cautioned, anderson, that there is still, very much, the possibility that this simply started outside of a lab in a contact between animal and human. and they're still investigating that, at this point. but this official tried to say that is why the president was making that statement yesterday. of course, the investigation continues and this official was complaining, as other officials have here at the white house, that the chinese are not letting u.s. investigators into that lab to look into this further. anderson. >> jim acosta. jim, thanks very much. let's get perspective now from madeleine albright. served as secretary of state under president clinton. madam secretary, thanks for being with us. the president, clearly, intent on blaming china. saying he is confident the virus started at the wuhan lab. we heard what jim was talking about with the intelligence community is saying. clearly, china has not been

completely transparent and upfront and even on their death toll. what's your point of view on this? >> anderson, before we begin, let's start with something pleasant, which is congratulations on your baby. and if you need any advice, please, give me a call. >> i will do that. thank you. >> i do think that this is all head spinning, frankly, because you get the sense that there is a desire, on part of the administration, to have the intelligence community and the scientific community completely bench to what they're trying to prove. and, yet, they're trying to prove something different every other day. and so, having been in the government, i can tell you that this is something that makes decision-making incredibly complicated and confusing, in every way, to our own people and to the rest of the world and our adversaries. and so this is a very serious situation. but it can't be handled in the way that it's coming together

now. it's impossible for, even somebody that thinks she understands it, to follow it properly. >> when an administration, any administration, has, you know, a -- i don't know if agenda is the right word or just a belief, you know, that china has done something or any country has done something. and tasks the intelligence community or sends the message to the intelligence community that they want, you know, information on that. does -- does the pressure of what the administration wants filter into the intelligence community? i mean, certainly a lot of questions were raised about the stove piping of intelligence in the war in iraq. >> what is interesting is that it is the job of the intelligence community person to come into the situation room when there's a discussion about it, and to talk about what is happening. without getting involved in policy advice. that is hard. i can understand that. but the whole point is to try to get independent information from

the intelligence community. and the same thing is true when the intelligence people go in and brief the president every morning, or they used to. and i think that it is very dangerous when the intelligence community is not able to do its job of providing that independent intelligence. the thing i think that's fair to say, not all issues are always black and white. and so, often, the intelligence community provides different scenarios, which i think is important for our a decisionmaker. but, from everything i read, this is much more than that. really, being -- having been from the very beginning, kind of dismissing the intelligence community. and this administration, you can't make policy without having a very serious approach to the intelligence and the science. >> cnn is reporting the administration's formulating a long-term plan to punish china on multiple fronts for the coronavirus pandemic, whether through sanctions or trade policies.

i'm wondering, the -- you know, the -- the concerns about that, given, you know, when you look just down the road. if china comes up with a vaccine or we need certain medicines, china manufactures a lot of the pharmaceutical drugs that americans consume. and are prescribed by their doctors. is -- is this administration aware or concerned enough about how interconnected we, actually, are with this country? even though we are at odds with this country, on a number of fronts? >> well, i think you've put it very clearly, in terms of the important aspect if they actually have a vaccine. it would be crazy for us to say we don't want it. we are interconnected. and i think -- i can't tell you how many meetings, over the years, i've been to about what our relationship with china is. and is it a -- it is a rising power. and how do we deal with it? and it's the art of statecraft to be able to cooperate and compete with a country.

and that is where we are with china. so if we punish them, in the way that you're talking about, we are punishing ourselves. and so, i think it's very shortsighted. i do think the chinese have to explain what happened. there's no question about that. and there are many aspects to this. but, at the moment, we need to think about where we are, presently, and where we're going in the future. and to recognize them as a major power, that has a lot of control over things. and, basically, as the united states steps back from policy, the chinese are gonna fill the vacuum. it's an -- i know people don't want to hear this. it's a complicated relationship. but i think, exactly the way you put the point supposing they have a vaccine, we're going to punish them and not have it? >> also, china, i mean, just in terms of being a rising power. you were just talking about the u.s. stepping back on the stage. i mean, china has been advancing on the international stage. i mean, throughout africa,

china's deeply involved, you know, throughout much of the world. we've seen the rise of -- of china. and that only seems to be continuing. >> well, absolutely. they have been. and they have been waiting to do that. and xi jinping is very aggressive on this. the belt-and-road policy, where they are going around. i've been saying the chinese must be getting very fat because the belt is larger and larger, and they're all over the place. but, partially, it is their agenda. but, partially, it's because we've stepped back. and the vacuum that has been created leaves them space for it. what i am very troubled by, right now, anderson, is that xi jinping and trump are pushing each other's nationalism buttons. and that is very dangerous because they're both trying to prove that they're more powerful, that they can punish, that we have total control over each other's policies. we don't. there requires some kind of

understanding of the various aspects to it, and changing our minds every five minutes, i think, is very confusing to our own people, to our adversaries, and to our friends. and we need to have friends in dealing with china, as a rising power. >> madam secretary, appreciate your time. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> just ahead as we continue to remember the victims of the pandemic, the story of one family with two deaths. a mother and father, both, taken by coronavirus and the family struggle to give them a final resting place. tell me, what did verizon build their network for? people. and when people's every day is being challenged... that's when a network shows what it's made of. verizon customers are making an average of over 600 million calls

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there's a story out of california, situation we want to tell you about. richard hartwig, vietnam veteran, his family said he always wanted full military burial. died of coronavirus, and then his wife also died from coronavirus. they had been married for 33 years. this by no means is the end of the story. as with most stories in the pandemic, nothing is simple, naomi is with me now. i'm so sorry for the loss you

and your family are going through. tell me about your parents. what were they like? >> hi. so my parents were two people that were on complete opposites of the spectrum, my dad was a serious guy on the outside but on the inside behind closed doors he was the typical dad jokester. he had his crude sense of humor, sometimes borderline inappropriate, and you know, he dealt with a lot of his emotions with humor and would laugh at things most people probably wouldn't laugh at. that's who he was. but he was also introverted. favorite place to be was home on the couch watching anything from "mash" to football to those

ghost catcher shows. >> uh-huh. and he met your mom, they were working on an assembly line together, i read at a memorex factory. is that right? >> yes. tandy for memorex, mom worked on the assembly line and dad was technician, would fix the machinery. >> what was she like? >> the complete opposite of that, extremely extroverted, would be the life of any party. loved music, loved to dance. she was from el salvador, loved to dance salsa, merengue. dancing her passion. loved to be around people. loved to be not just at big events, but she was very, very loving and she loved her kids

more than anything. and she never failed to show us. she was very affectionate and loving. and she was just a caring person. >> i love it, almost every picture hugging somebody or smiling or with your dad or your siblings, you. i know they wanted to be buried together if that was possible. they died a week apart, in different hospitals, different counties. >> yes. >> i know your dad wanted a military burial, he was vietnam vet and with honor guard. you weren't able to have that because of coronavirus, right? >> no. we couldn't. so for the burial it was very strict, only allowed us to have ten people. and we had to stand up on this hilltop that was overlooking the

whole cemetery. and it was really, really far. so we couldn't see anything, really. >> i think we just showed a picture of somebody pointing and i can't even see, i'm guessing that's a shot from the burial but i can't see what's going on. >> right, yeah. >> you were that far away? >> we were that far away, yeah. couldn't see anything. finally we got so frustrated that some of us drove down to see what was going on, because we couldn't see anything. by the time we drove down, casket had already been lowered and there was nobody there. we just kind of took it upon ourselves to walk up. i took a picture of their grave site. >> that's the picture we just saw once you walked up after it was done. wow. >> right. it was just covered with a piece of wood.

there was nobody around, and we kind of just hung out there for a couple minutes, you know, then we were asked to leave because we weren't supposed to be down there. so that's basically how -- >> was your mom able to be in the casket with your dad? i know she was cremated, was she able to be, her ashes, in the casket? >> no. because the urn and the casket had to be checked in separately, they weren't able to put the urn inside the cass pet beforehand, and then, casket, beforehand, and then once we got there, we weren't able to reopen the casket to put the urn inside, they had a policy we weren't allowed to reopen the casket and place the urn inside. >> that's very unusual, often you can put mementos or something in the casket of your

loved one before they're buried. i know other members of your family are also struggling with coronavirus, is that right? >> yes, so my aunt, my mom's younger sister, who is still in the hospital but thank god they took her finally off the ventilator, little over a week ago. slowly getting better. but she went into the hospital around the same time my mom did. and she was diagnosed with coronavirus and was on the ventilator almost three weeks as well. >> oh, my gosh. >> but thank god she's finally starting to get a little better. we were worried. >> well, naomi, i'm so sorry for your loss and also just for, you know, the final moments weren't what you and what they certainly wanted. i hope -- i hope -- i don't know. that's terrible. and i wish it was a different

situation, i'm sorry what you've been through. >> thank you. >> but i appreciate you talking about them, love hearing about your parents. sound like amazing couple who have been through a lot. >> they were great people, i'm sad that they left us so soon. >> what a life they had together. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, appreciate it. lot more ahead this friday night. talk to sanjay again, update on the testing and how activist sean penn is trying to help ease that road in testing. take you to laboratory to show you how far unprotected cough also travels. [anthonyy mama, what's up? [mama] i'm confused. confused about what, everything ok? yeah, i only see one price on my phone bill. that doesn't sound confusing mama. you're on t-mobile, taxes and fees are included. oh come on, there's always extra fees! not on t-mobile mama. why can't all my bills be like this? i don't know mama. bye mama, love you. anthony? umph! at t-mobile, taxes and fees are included. and right now, when you switch your family, get 4 lines of unlimited for just $35 a line.

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