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all right. i'm chris cuomo welcome back to "prime time." cdc guidelines for how to safely reopen are still in the editing phase. according to doctor burkes of the white house task force. that is an excuse for why those guidelines weren't being made. the baseline how to reopen according to to senior official at the cdc. let's take on this discrepancy

with director of the harvard global health institute. always good to have har hard in the house. welcome back to "prime time." listen, with all due deference to dr. burkes she's welcome on the show. i don't like her side of the controversy. it wouldn't prompt them to say they're ignoring us. you are aware people are worried inside the cdc. they think they are not being taken with the same kind of wait as the economic -- what is your perspective on what matters here? >> thanks for having me back on. a few things, first of all, the open up america again plan that the white house are leased i have said before was directionally right. it had the right principles. i said it's vague. it doesn't have a will the of detail. guess what, the white house asked the cdc to fill in the

details. and they did. they put together an evidence based approach and it sat around for three weeks. i don't know what the editing phase means. american people aren't getting a benefit from the advice and that's a problem. >> also, when -- if the reporting bares out as accurate. is that they didn't like on the white house side that the testing and the tracing that was made as a condition. not just for the common sense of restoring confidence in people and creating demand to go out and use places reopening, but that you had to have a basis of truth to report to people before rationalizing reopening. and what the white house wants is testing to come whenever it comes but reopen first.

what is the problem with that approach? >> this is hugely a problem. the white house is well aware that testing is very important. the president and vice president are getting tested all the time. >> every day. >> the vice president didn't wear a mask. >> every day the president is getting tested now. rightly so because of one case. of a valet in his proximity. and they traced every one that valet came into contact with. that's what we're asking for. why can't the country get that protection? >> that's my point. if that testing is how we protect the president, turns out i want to protect my family too. it's not some secret sauce that only the president gets to have. it's something we should all have access to. ongoing testing. tracing and isolation. if you wait until after you open up to try to put that together, case numbers will climb and you will fall behind and your life will be much harder at a state

or country. that's why many of us have been saying please to this now before you open. so you can stay open and keep people safe. >> now, the response from the white house is what they would teach you in debate class as raa reasoning. which is take an idea and strip it down so much that it becomes a ridiculous idea. to wit in this situation testing, ja wants to test everybody in the country every day. that is like crazy, unnecessary and impractical. and president echoed that today. the testing thing, it goes too far. what the guys are asking for. they are saying they don't want to do the testing. they are going to say guys like you you want to do it to a level that doesn't really even matter. >> yeah. that is obviously not what we have ever said. and i have been pretty

aggressive on testing. even my testing approach which we have up day-to-day numbers saying we should be doing a million a day. that means every american in my approach would get tested once a year. that's not a will the. we should be doing more than that. that's the bare minimum. what the president laid out has every american getting tested every four to five years. the bottom line is more testing is better. nobody is saying everybody get tested every day. if you have symptoms you should be able to get tested. if you are high risk you can get tested. that's the level with need to open up safely. the president knows this the white house knows this. i don't know why they're not acting on it. it's really disconcerning and leaves us less safe. >> you do this within the study. to be clear, your projection study. it's not one size fits all. wyoming doesn't need what

washington d.c. does. density and case consideration. you need a different level of protection. that makes common sense. where i live in new york out on the island is not as ready to reopen as other counties in new york state. so we need to have more testing, more tracing, more changes in our case load. than another county in up state new york. that's not unreasonable. >> that's been our entire approach. people who shade you want to make just because new york is having a problem doesn't mean the whole country is. the way i think about is wyoming, montana, alaska, noud these are places that could open up safely now. they have probably not quite as much testing as i'd like but close. they can be reasonably ready to open. georgia, not even close. it is state by state issue. the problem is we need federal

gl guidance on the science. that is consistent. and every state can apply to the local circumstance. >> this is your favorite part of the show. tell me why i'm wrong segment. i see the polls, i get that people even in places like georgia are afraid to go out and start exercising their economic mandate. even if they are given opportunity. yet, i feel to use a word that means nothing in science that you are losing the argument. that with the seasonal change, and the opportunities and the momentum of states reopening almost every state doing something, people are getting sick of it. 56 days is enough. the thing seems like it's not as bad as it was. and i don't follow the numbers they are too high and i want to get out and live my life. and by the way, a will the of us are getting killed by this economically. so that is starting to overwhelm. you have the poll numbers that

suggest that people aren't open. where's your head on where the country is moving towards? >> i'm sympathetic to people feeling like it's a long time. cooped up and huge economic costs. particularly the hourly wage workers and poorer people. they don't have a big reserve. i'm sympathetic to how people are feeling. i also look around and people are genuinely scared about going out and getting sick. so my question is why are we putting this as the only two set of choices in frnt of the american people? we said choose your life or choose your economic survival. and i have always argued there's a third path. build a great testing, tracing isolation infrastructure. get back to work. keep people safe. it's not some crazy idea that

only academics are talking about. we can do it. we have every capacity. we have chosen mnot to. that frustrates me. we are giving people false choices. >> we haven't made ppe at home and have tests here at home. it is mind boggling. thank you very much for being on the show. >> another thing that has people shaking their heads. what happened with general flynn? the justice department dropped all charges against the former trump national security adviser. he pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi. tonight the attorney general said it was his duty to drop the charges. duty to whom is this duty to what. let's debate what happened with former fbi director. next. ...can become your big moment.

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the department of justice dropped its case against former trump national security adviser who ghited to lying to the fbi about his contact with russian officials. president has been pushing towards this. attorney general says tonight that he the president had no influence. on what we're led to believe was his call. >> a crime cannot be established here. they didn't have a basis for a counter intelligence investigation against flip at that stage sfwl does the fact remain had lied? >> people sometimes plead to things that turn out not to be crimes. >> very rarely. this is always been an unusual situation. the flynn case has been a weird case. let's take up this debate. very familiar with the fbi having worked there. and understands the process well. law professor as well.

good to see you hope the family is well. >> good to see you too. glad you're doing well. >> are you standing? that gives you an unfair advantage. >> i am standing. >> i didn't know this would be one person standing. obviously you take the side of scrutiny. and i'll defend it from what we understand of the disposition of the doj. why does this move bother you? >> this move bothers me for a number of reasons. but primarily because it really turns the idea of having a special counsel on its head. remember that when mueller was appointed the entire idea was to have an independent prosecutor investigate and take actions in this case without any political influence. and he did this under the rod rosensteinen. a trump appointee. and christopher wray the fbi director. another trump appointee.

all the decisions were vetted and approved by the people and michael flynn's prosecution took place under that entire investigation. what's happening now is someone who is a political appointee coming in after the fact and trying to undo the results of the investigation. and in my opinion, also trying to accomplish under the veneer of the law what trump wanted to do in my opinion, with a pardon. >> right. i agree. with that point. my counter is that barr has done far worse in the same vain. with how he handled lt investigation and edited what came out and interpreted how things should be carried forward or not. to the president's benefit. and here you to not have a strong appoint. the flynn case was a flawed case from the beginning. you never really had a him on a crime. this was about catching him in

his own words and the only thing you have is he admitted it. but you box people in to admitting stuff all the time. >> no, i think what this does -- that argument essentially starts to conflate the idea of counter intelligence and criminal investigation. when you have a contact with an official a foreign agent of a hostile nation in this case russia, and you keep it secret from the government, that creates a counter intelligence threat. when the fbi investigates you about that, which they will do, so p.s. to anyone in contact with hostile foreign agents. if you lie to the fbi then you have created a compromised situation. and i think that the fbi was entirely within the yurs jurisdiction to interview him. in position of making

significant foreign policy decisions on behalf of the united states. and then he lied to the fbi on top of this. he doubled down. which suggested that he was unwilling to come clean and maybe in a position where he would be beholden to a foreign power. i don't see that they're not being a clear crime when they went to interview him. the lying in itself created a problem and one that i think the fbi was entitled to prosecute. so that they could essentially neutralize the threat in the situation. >> the push back is that i accept the analysis all the way up to what the doj had to do with it. should flynn have told the truth or be more candid, yes. does he regret it, i bet he does. he wasn't kocompromised. he wasn't an agent. he didn't do anything with the russians. and why he explained it that way, he'll have to explain for himself.

he wound up getting caught in his own words. there was never threat to national security. the russians now had something on him is farfetched at best. >> it's not farfetched. remember that at the time salary yates notified the white house about it. in addition to the lies that he told about his contacts with ambassador kislyak about sanctions. this was happening right after president obama expelled 35 russian diplomats from the united states and imposed sanctions for interference in the 2016 election. what he was contacting kislyak about was to basically say don't do anything. it was under mining the position of the u.s. government which should be speaking with one voice. >> happens all the time. one administration trying to make up for what the last one was doing. having a better relationship. and by the way these people lie

all the time. that's why people are so fed up and picked an agent for the cause like the president to be disruptive. people lie in politics. it's in the always a crime. >> i purr back this happens all the time. it maybe incoming administrations have a different position than the previous. they will typically coordinate with the administration in power. in order to make sure that everything is on up and up. typically not having secret conversations and fot lying to federal investigators acting in the interest of the united states about it. let's remember he was acting as a foreign agent for turkey. that's something else that he pleaded guilty to. that is by the way a crime to be an undisclosed foreign agent and when you take on a position of public trust like the national security adviser. of the entire doj memo is cherry picking the echts that led up to this in a way to exonerate flynn

of something that i think in any other administration republican or democrat, we would be concerned about. and basically saying -- >> that's his best argument. you're right. we would be concerned about it. we wouldn't prosecute it. that flynn got prosecuted for something where tlfts no under lying crime and didn't register the right way for turkey. and you'll never give another example of somebody being prosecuted for these things in any other administration. >> probably because in any other administration nobody would be doing it. >> come on. >> making money on the side. he helping out somebody. wearing two hats at the same time. look at the agencies where this happens. he has to go to jail for it? >> yeah. the idea of doing something secretly to under mine a sitting

u.s. government. the way we can look at it is if trump loses in november and let's say a biden administration comes into power, imagine if the biden administration were secretly negotiating with the chinese or under mining official foreign policy. it really doesn't do a service to the united states. and our position globally to have two dimpt avenues happening. this is why we have laws against private citizens doing that. and i think that the idea that you can lie to the fbi with impunity in an investigation is something that's so fundamental to the administration of justice. let's go back to the idea that barr is chipping away at the idea that this was a legitimate investigation. this was an independent investigation by the special counsel appointed by trump's own

appointee over seen by deputy attorney general rosen steen and wrai. this is in my opinion impugning they judgment. they were the ones over seeing this during the time this was happening. anyone has to answer for it it should be rod rosenstein. >> i give you that point. that it seems like an encroachment and political pay back purposes. the irony mr. barr is saying i hope people know there's one justice. he's enforcing a two tooered system. you can give someone a benefit when not everybody gets that. will there are a will the of people in jail for admitting to things where they admitted to it to get out of a situation and instead of being threatened that it was going to get much worse if they continue. that's what flynn is saying happened to him. thank you very much for making the argument.

and glad to hear the family is well. stay healthy. >> same to you. >> all right. that argument is going to be had a lot over the next few days. what will be different about this one is she and i aren't pushing political agendas. that will be the sole context for this going forward. what about obama and trump? strip it away. look at the facts. the understanding about the law and what he did and when's been done in other cases like it. or not. we know it will be back tomorrow morning bh the unemployment numbers for april are are vealed. we have never seen anything like it since the great depression. what are we supposed to do now? how do you ignore the pain. the man who two presidents trusted during good and bad financial times will argue what the situation means. not just for the short term. long term. next.

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the numbers are going to be bad on job losses. the economy in general is getting crushed. the reality is for too many things are getting worse. one in five american workers have filed for unemployment since mid-march. this week was another 3.2 million. tomorrow monthly report is going to be historically bad. question becomes what do we do about it? more importantly, when? i know i always say the big question is how. that's in terms of balancing health with economics. let's talk just economics for a second. gene ran the national economic counsel for president obama and

clinton. also the author of a new book. economic dignity. now, it's always good to have you. i grew up with jean he worked for my father when he was governor. the book will not be given enough service. because of the context we're talking about tonight. i need to get you on the raid why show to to do more time about it. you talk about income inequality and income justice. in ways that go far beyond what we're dealing with acutely right now in terms of the immediate and talk about how we should be build better after this. i high hi recommend the book for that reason. we'll have a longer discussion. in the context of the immediate, the people will look at numbers and say that's why we have to reopen. the cure is worse than the disease. we have to reopen right away. we can't take this. we'll lose a generation of

businesses. >> you know the jimny cricket song wishing on a star. it's not an economic strategy for opening. you have to have the kind of trust that comes from progress and testing. tracing, perhaps on treatment. and i think what's going to happen is i think there's two big questions about how with open, which is, one, do we do so in a way that gives the people who are going to be risk adverse no matter what the leader say the confidence that this is right. what i think will happen is people like myself and my family, we're making our own judgments with what's safe for us. and if the economy opens too quickly and people rush back and you get a new rise in community

spread, a new surge to the emergency room. all the people who are already risk adverse become even that much more risk adverse and they are going to be harder to ever get them back because they are going to feel like fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me. the second thing about reopening that i really do think goes@to the question of economic dignity. how we reopen and treat workers. what you saw with donald trump ordering meat workers back when you have 5,000 hospitalized and have deep symptoms. when you have pout tri workers that already faced such deregulation they have twice the amount of serious injuries. seven times carpal tunnel. a study said some have so wear diapers there's not a time to go to a bathroom.

when you say you have essential and you have to go back, the we are not going to treat you with that dignity of ensuring your employer makes sure you're safe and have paid sick leave. and hazard pay. you'll have deeper type of harm. a feeling people were used for oh people's ends and value and worth as people was not realized as we reopened. >> quickly, before i lose you here. there's another argument they're making. that you have an spres interesting counter. i get all the points. we have to do better with workers. right now we have to reopen. that is the key to bringing the economy back. is that once we can get it open, everything will come back very quickly. says the president. you say no. the damage that has been sustained can't be fixed quickly. why not? >> this is the choice you hear christy and the president making. let's get it back we'll be

strong and there's like a trade off between the health and even accepting death of older loved ones for reopening the economy. i don't think it works as roping strategy. remember, you have to convince me it's safe to go into that restaurant. if i think that my governor, my mayor and president has put regulations that ensure the workers coming there are truly safe. you have massive and i mean massive testing that gives people that confidence. then i'm going to reopen and i'll stay more engaged. how is it going to help the economy if you have not just a dramatic second wave, but you open at a time when people say, wow, people rushed out. they decided they are going to football games and the beach. if they see the illness happening, me, you, the customer the people have to make the decision to buy a car or go to a

nail salon or go to a restaurant are going to stay home. they're not spending. you can't wish the economy open. it's really about four big ts. testing, tracing, treatment and trust. you have to create trust. and if you don't, i don't think you can prove the economy and i think we could have double digit unemployment for one two years from now. if we don't get the health part right and reopen in a careful, thoughtful way. >> he lays this out in a very comprehensive way in his new book. and the interesting part about it is so many are talking about are we going build back better now? are we doing things differently snou that's what the back is about. thank you for coming onto deal with the immediate. come on the radio and we'll have a longer discussion about the

book. it warrants it. >> thank you so much. >> all right, so, i have somebody for you that is not just a hero to us. a hero to the heros. her name is rhonda sheerer. she's so serious about ppe. and getting it personally to our healthcare pros on the front line. she took out a second mortgage. why? ask some of the veterans of ground zero after ni9/11. we'll ask her ourselves, next. mhm, yeah, that too. i don't want any trade minimums. yeah, i totally agree, they don't have any of those. i want to know what i'm paying upfront. yes, absolutely. do you just say yes to everything? hm. well i say no to kale. mm. yeah, they say if you blanch it it's better, but that seems like a lot of work. now offering zero commissions on online trades. we charge you less so you have more to invest.

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tonight's american is a woman who wholeheartedly em bodies the we before the me spirit. her name is rhonda sheerer. she's noun by some as new york's patron saint of ppe. she travels to neighborhoods hit hardest by the out break with a truck full of much needed ppe. and she gives it to hospital workers for free. that's the video. so how'd she buy all this stuff? she put her own home on the line taking $600,000 in debt. and it's not some recent fit of madness. this is what she's about. she did this after 9/11.

she was at ground zero distributing millions of dollars in supplies to first responders. all of which she mobilized herself. it is a pleasure to introduce you to rhonda on "prime time" tonight. i know you don't like being taken away from the grind of giving people the equipment. thank you for being with us tonight. >> thank you, chris. i'm honored by your description. let me point out the real heros are the nurses and doctors. the maintenance workers. the security officers that are all exposed to this horrible disease. and they are willing to go and march into that hospital through the doors and maybe never come back out in the same way. due to the illness. that's what inspires me and all the dimfferent volunteers that help me. there's no way i can do this by

myself. i'm safe on the outside of the hospital. passing out ppe. the real heros are toez that know they're taking a risk and despite taking that risk are on ward to take care of patients and be professional and help our whole country. >> i agree with you 99%. you are totally right about who the heros are. but the fact that they are lining up outside your truck tells us that they are not getting enough of what they need to do their job where they do the job. therefore, if not for you and your volunteers, they would be exposed to worse risk. and therefore, you must be a hero once again. >> well, i don't feel that way. i'm humbled by the suggestion of that. truly, the seriousness of the

need can't be forgotten. we have to remember these workers at all times. because they don't have what they need. and basically what we're doing is giving personal use items. in other words a nurse or a doctor or a main nance workers work a 12 hour shift. what do they wear at home? what mask do they have to wear home? this is what we're supplying. they can choose how to use the mask. and have the ability to share it with their family. they don't have time to shop for ppe. and let alone try to find it in and be able to pay for it. i went to all the different pharmacies outside the hospitals in poor areas. >> can't find them. >> or you find them and they are unbelievably priced. something i buy for 36 cents they're selling for $4.

>> i totally get it. we have problems with gouging. some call it supply and demand. i don't think so. the problem is we don't make it in the country. it's really national security interest equipment now. we have one company in maine making swab for tests and pp, we're nowhere. the need is great. i looked into why hospitals wouldn't want to work with you. the best argument your get is -- you call it the cut the red tape. that's what it is. they're saying we don't know the stuff is certified. i'm told it's not a problem. when she buys it it's a invoice ticket in procurement processes for new york state. i know that process. you're getting around that. i want the audi yents to get exposure. we will not debate hero anymore. american. you're that. a regular person doing extraordinary things for others. that's american. and in terms of american do

attitude. how did you arrive at the conclusion that it was worth taking on that much personal debt to do this? >> unfortunately, like so many others who served at ground zero supporting first responders as well as the families of first responders themselves, i have experienced extreme loss. my partner of 15 years chief ron an fdny staff member, he died of ground zero related cancer june of 2019. and here i am at the end of february, my daughter who was the one that actually initiated the 9/11 recovery supply operation. had ground zero related cancer surgery. right at the beginning of the

pandemic. so, i have a personal stake in this cause and i want to fulfill a leadership position where everybody feels the same way, once there's an avenue to b able to take action, then they do it. i get so many e-mails now, one was from dot an 81 year-old. she said she wished he could pay for the entire operation. she said she's on a fixed income. and could send $20 to the go fund me. this was like a million dollar gift. to have it be where every day americans can participate and help these heros. and i want to do that. and continue to do that. as long as i'm able. >> let's do this.

i put up the go fund me page. the cause is obvious to everybody. your commitment is rare. and i understand that it comes from your heart and place of loss. and you want to see people not have to go through tla loss. rhonda, thank you for sharing your story. we're happy to do the same with our audience. and i hope you keep helping people for a listening time. >> thank you. thank you for the opportunity. >> thank you for making the most of the opportunity to help others. we are a call away if we can help get word out. be well, stay healthy. god bless. >> god bless you. thank you. >> not everybody can do what she is doing to honor our pandemic warriors. there is something you can do each night. especially in the big cities where you have case density and workers the healthcare workers. open your window. shout your lungs out. it's good for you. it's good for them. if you happen to be part of the

new york city fire department you have one more way to make some noise for the healthcare angels. check this out. ordinarily that noise drives me ordinarily that noise drives me crazy but not in this context. good news, next. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion,♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea pepto bismol coats and soothes your stomach for fast relief and now, get the same fast relief in a delightful chew with new pepto bismol chews.

it was just a token of our appreciation. and because we know how tirelessly you work. it meant everything to have you stop by. for the past two weeks, our incredible crew proudly served more than 10 million thank you meals to first-responders and healthcare-workers. it was an honor to meet you. an honor to thank you. and it was our honor to serve you.

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how about a big jolt of american energy for you tonight. we need the good news. we need to remember there's good around us. near detroit, teachers and staff from unika unity schools wanted to give their seniors a special memory since the end of their school year is going to be atypical which is to say it's going to suck, right? so, listen to what they did. they hand delivered every senior in the district, roughly 2,200 students, caps, gowns, certificates, honor cords, and of course a token 2020 graduate lawn sign. and they did this all during teacher appreciation week. what a way to turn a sour situation into a sweet memory. thank you educators for teaching the graduates and the rest of us a profound lesson in gratitude. thanks for watching. stay tuned. the news continues here on cnn.

♪ >> welcome. i'm anderson cooper in new york. >> i'm dr. sanjay gupta, and this is the cnn global town hall "coronavirus: facts and fears." tonight's broadcast is seen around the globe, international, cnn espanol and streamed on cnn.com. it's our tenth consecutive weekly town hall. >> let me show everyone the chart. when we did our first town hall nine weeks ago there were 12 deaths, 227 cases.