all right. i'm chris cuomo welcome back to a bonus hour of prime time. cdc guidelines for how to safely reopen are still in the editing phase. according to doctor burkes of the white house task force. that is an excuse for why those guidelines weren't being made. the baseline how to reopen according to to senior official at the cdc.

let's take on this discrepancy with dr. ashish ja, director of the harvard global health institute. always good to have harvard in the house. welcome back to "prime time." listen, with all due deference to dr. birx, she is welcome on the show, i don't like her side of the controversy. the idea that it's in the editing phase would not prompt a cdc official to say they are ignoring us, because as you probably are aware, people are worried inside the cdc. they think they are not being taken with the same kind of wait as the economic exigencies. what is your perspective on what matters here? >> absolutely. thanks for having me back on, chris. a few things, first of all, the open up america again plan that the white house are leased i have said before was directionally right. it had the right principles.

one of the things i said it's pretty vague. it doesn't have a lot of details. so they asked the cdc to fill in the details, and the cdc did. they put together an evidence-based approach. i don't know what it means to be in the editing phase, but what i know is the american people aren't getting the benefit of the advice from the cdc, and that's a problem. >> also, when -- if the reporting bares out as accurate. is that they didn't like on the white house side that the testing and the tracing that was made as a condition. not just for the common sense of restoring confidence in people and creating demand to go out and use places reopening, but that you had to have a basis of truth to report to people before rationalizing reopening. and what the white house wants is testing to come whenever it

comes but reopen first. what is the problem with that approach? >> yeah, so this is hugely problematic. the white house is well aware that testing is very, very important. the president and the vice president are getting tested all the time. >> every day. >> you remember the vice president didn't wear his mask. >> every day the president is going to get tested now, and rightly so because of burn case of a valet in his proximity, and they have traced everyone that valet came into contact with. that's what we're asking for. >> exactly. >> why can't this country get that kind of protection? >> that's my point exactly. if that testing is how we protect the president, it turns out i want to protect my family too. and it's not some secret sauce that only the president gets to have. it's something we should all have access to. ongoing testing. tracing and isolation. here's the problem, chris. if you wait until after you open up to try to put that together,

case numbers will start climbing. you will fall behind, and your life is going to be much harder as a state or as a country. that's why many of us have been saying please to this now before you open. so you can stay open and keep people safe. >> now, the response from the white house is what they would teach you in debate class as raa reasoning. rebiculo and absurdum, which is take an idea and strip it down so much that it becomes a ridiculous idea. to wit in this situation testing. jha wants to test everybody in the country, every day. and that is like crazy, unnecessary and impractical. and president echoed that today. the testing thing, it goes too far. what the guys are asking for. they are saying they don't want to do the testing. they are going to say guys like you you want to do it to a level that doesn't really even matter. >> yeah.

so look, that is obviously not what we have ever said. and i've been pretty aggressive on testing. even my testing approach which we have updated our numbers saying we should be doing about a million tests day. that means every american in my approach would get tested once a year. that's not a lot. in fact, we probably should be doing more than that. but that's the bare minimum. but what the president has laid out is every american getting tested one every four to five years, which is absurd. the bottom line is more testing is better. no one is saying everyone gets tested every day. what we're saying is if you have symptoms, you should be able to get tested. if you are high risk you can get tested. that's the level with need to open up safely. the president knows this the white house knows this. i don't know why they're not acting on it. but it's really disconcerting and leaves us all a little less safe. >> look you do this within the study, but just to be clear with

people, you know, your projection study, it is not one size fits all. wyoming does not need what washington, d.c. does. >> yeah. >> where you have the density, where you have case considerations, you need a different level of protection, and that makes common sense. suffolk county where i live in new york out on the island is not as ready to reopen, unfortunately, as other counties in new york state. so we need to have more testing, more tracing, more changes in our case load. than cuyahoga county has to have in upstate new york. that's not unreasonable. >> yeah, and that's been our entire approach. there are people who said you want to make just because new york is having a problem doesn't mean the whole country. the way i think about it is, wyoming, montana, alaska, north dakota, these are places that probably could open up safely now. they have probably not quite as much testing as i'd like, but pretty close. they can be pretty reasonably ready to open. georgia, not even close.

so it really is a state-by-state issue. the problem is we need federal guidance on what the science is that is much more consistent that every state can then apply to its own local circumstance. >> this is your favorite part of the show. tell me why i'm wrong segment. i see the polls. i get that people, even in places like georgia are afraid to go out and start exercising their economic mandate, even if they are given opportunities. and yet i feel, to use a word that means nothing in science, that you guys are losing the argument. that with the seasonal change, and the opportunities and the momentum of states reopening almost every state doing something, people are getting sick of it. 56, 57 days is enough. the thing seems like it's not as bad as it was. and i don't really follow the numbers because they're too high, and i want to get back out and live my life. and by the way, a lot of us are

getting killed by this economically. so that is starting to overwhelm. but then you have these poll numbers on the other side that suggest people aren't open. where's your head on where the country is moving towards? >> i'm very sympathetic, chris to people who are feeling like it's been a long time. they've been cooped up. there has been huge economic costs of being shut down. i'm hugely sensitive to that, particularly for hourly wage worker, for people who are poorer. they don't have a big reserve they can count on. i'm very sympathetic to how people are feeling. i also look around and people are genuinely scared about going out and getting sick. so my question is why are we putting this as the only two set of choices in front of the american people? we basically said chows your life or choose your economic survival, and i've always argued there's a third pass. build a great testing, tracing, isolation infrastructure. we can let people get back to work.

we can keep people safe. it's not some crazy idea that only academics are talking about. lots of countries have done it. and we can do it. we have every capacity. we have chosen not to. and that is what frustrates me because we're giving people false choices. >> you still haven't used the mightiest muscle of manufacturing in the world, which is ours to make ppe here at home and to make what you need to have tests here at home. >> yeah. >> it is mind-boggling. dr. ashish jha, thank you very much for being on the show. >> thanks, chris. all right. another thing that has people kind of shaking their heads. what happened with general flynn? the justice department dropped all charges against the former trump national security adviser. he pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi. tonight the attorney general said it was his duty to drop the charges. duty to whom? duty to what? let's debate what happened with

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the department of justice dropped its case against former trump national security adviser michael flynn, who admitted to

lying to the fbi about his contact with russian officials. now we know the president has been pushing for this, but attorney general bill barr says tonight that he, the president had no influence. on what we're led to believe was his call. >> a crime cannot be established here. they didn't have a basis for a counterintelligence investigation against flynn at that stage. >> does the fact remain that he lied? >> well, people sometimes plead to things that turn out not to be crimes. >> very rarely. this is always been an unusual situation. the flynn case has always been a weird ace. let's take up this debate with asha rangappa, very familiar with the fbi having worked there and understands the process well, law professor as well. it's good to see you. i hope the family is well. >> it's good to see you too, chris. that gives you an unfair advantage.

>> i am standing. >> i didn't know this would be one person standing. obviously you take the side of scrutiny. and i'll defend it from what we understand of the disposition of the doj. why does this move bother you? >> this move bothers me for a number of reasons. but primarily because it really turns the idea of having a special counsel on its head. remember that when mueller was appointed the entire idea was to have an independent prosecutor investigate and take actions in this case without any political influence. and he did this under the rod ros rosenstein who was one of trump's appointees, as also under the auspices of christopher wray, the fbi director, another one trump's appointees. all the decisions were vetted and approved by the people and

michael flynn's prosecution took place under that entire investigation. what's happening now is someone who is a political appointee coming in after the fact and basically trying to undo the results of that investigation, and in my opinion, chris, also trying to accomplish under the veneer of the law what trump wanted to do, in my opinion, with a pardon. >> right. i agree with that point. my counter is that barr has done far worse in the same vein. with how he handled the investigation and how he edited what came out to us and how he interpreted how things should be carried forward or not to the president's benefit. and here you do not have as strong a point because the flynn case was a flawed case from the beginning. you never really had a him on a crime. this was about catching him in his own words and the only thing you have on him is that he admitted it, but you guys box people into admitting stuff all the time.

>> no, i think what this does -- that argument essentially starts to conflate the idea of counter intelligence and criminal investigation. when you have a contact with an official, a foreign agent of a hostile nation, in this case russia, and you keep it secret from the government, that creates a counterintelligence threat. when the fbi investigates you about that, which they will do, so p.s. to anyone in contact with hostile foreign agents. if you lie to the fbi, then you have created a compromised situation, and i think that the fbi was entirely within their jurisdiction to interview him about this. he was going to be the national security adviser. >> right. >> and in the position of making significant foreign policy decisions on behalf of the united states. and then he lied to the fbi on top of this. he doubled down. which suggested that he was unwilling to come clean and

may be in a position where he would be beholden to a foreign power. i don't see that they're not being a clear crime when they went to interview him. the lying in itself created a problem and one that i think the fbi was entitled to prosecute. so that they could essentially neutralize the threat in the situation. >> so the pushback is that i accept the analysis all the way up to what the doj had to do with it. should flynn have told the truth or be more candid, yes. does he regret it, i bet he does. but he wasn't compromised. he wasn't an agent. there was no underlying crime. he didn't do anything with the russians. he didn't allow the russians to do anything. and why he explained it that way, he'll have to explain for himself. he wound up getting caught in his own words. there was never threat to national security. the theory that the russians now had something on him is far-fetched at best.

>> well, it's not far-fetched. remember at the time that deputy attorney general sally yates went and notified the white house about it. in addition to the lies that he told about his contacts with ambassador kislyak about sanctions. this was happening right after president obama expelled 35 russian diplomats from the united states and imposed sanctions for their interference in the 2016 election. so what he was contacting kislyak about was to basically say don't do anything. it was undermining the position of the u.s. government, should be speaking with one voice. >> it happens all the time, asha, one administration trying to make up for what the last one was doing, have a better relationship, have a new relationship. and by the way, these people lie all the time. that's why people are so fed up and picked an agent for the cause like the president to be disruptive. people lie in politics.

it's not always a crime. >> well, i'd push back, chris, that this happens all the time. it may very well be that incoming administrations have a different position than the previous one, but they will typically coordinate with the administration that's in power in order to, you know, make sure that everything is on the up and up. they're typically not having secret conversations, and they're definitely not lying to federal investigators who are acting in the interests of the united states about it. but let's also remember that he was acting as a foreign agent for turkey. that's something else that he pleaded guilty to. that is by the way a crime to be an undisclosed foreign agent and definitely when you take on a position of public trust like the national security adviser. i think the entire doj memo is really kind of cherry picking, you know, the events that led up to this in a way to exonerate flynn of something that i think in any other administration, republican or democrat, we would be concerned about. >> right.

>> and basically saying, you know -- >> but that's his best argument, by the way. you're right. we would be concerned about it. but we wouldn't prosecute it. that flynn got prosecuted for something where there was no underlying crime and didn't register the right way for turkey. and these are things that you'll never give me another example of somebody being prosecuted for these kinds of things in any other administration. >> probably because in any other administration nobody would be doing it. >> come on. come on. making a little money on the side, helping out somebody, wearing two hats at the same time. there are people who go in and out of public and private service all the time. look at the fda. look at those kind of agencies where this stuff happens. this guy's got to go to jail for it? >> yeah. the idea of doing something secretly to undermine a u.s. sitting government, i think the way we can look at it is if trump loses in november and let's say a biden administration comes into power, imagine if the

biden administration were secretly, you know, negotiating with the chinese or undermining our official foreign policy. it really does not do a service to the united states and our position globally to have two different avenues happening. this is why we have laws against private citizens doing that. and i think that the idea that you can lie to the fbi with impunity in an investigation is something that's so fundamental to the administration of justice. let's go back to the idea that barr is chipping away at the idea that this was a legitimate investigation. this was an independent investigation by the special counsel appointed by trump's own appointee, overseen by deputy attorney general rod rosenstein and christopher wray. >> right. >> and this is really, in my opinion, impugning their own

judgment. >> right. >> because they were the ones overseeing this during the time that this was all happening. >> i give you that point. >> i think if anyone has to answer for it, should it be rod rosenstein. >> i give you that point. that it seems like an encroachment and political pay back purposes. the irony of it is mr. barr, the attorney general is saying i want people to know there is one system of justice. well, if there is, when you do something like this, you're going get busted. and what he is doing is enforcing a two-tiered system where you can give someone the benefit of nuance and context and what the underlying thing is, while not everybody gets that. there are a lot of people sitting in jail for having admitted to things where they admitted to get out of a situation instead of being threatened that it was going to get much worse if it continued, and that's what flynn is saying happened to him. asha rangappa, thank you very much for making the argument. >> thank you. >> i'm glad to hear the family is well. i hope everybody stays healthy. >> same to you. >> all right. now that argument is going to be

had a lot over the next few days. what will be different about this one is she and i aren't pushing political agendas. but that's going to be the sole context for this going forward. what about obama? what about this one? what about trump? strip it away. look at the fax. find what the understanding what the law was and what he did and what's been done in other cases like it. all right. we know it's going to be bad tomorrow morning when the april unemployment numbers are refor april are revealed. what are we supposed to do now? how do you ignore that pain? the man who two presidents trusted during good and bad financial times will argue what the situation means not just for the short-term, but the long-term, next. ancestry...gave us context. this...whole world ...of people ...adventurous people... and survivors. it was interesting to think about their lives... their successes... and...their hardships. i think that's part of what i want my kids to know. they come from people who... were brave.

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the numbers are going to be bad on job losses. the economy in general is getting crushed. the reality is for too many things are getting worse. one in five american workers have filed for unemployment since mid-march. this week was another 3.2 million. tomorrow's monthly report is going to be historically bad. question becomes what do we do about it? but more importantly, when? i know i always say the big question is how. that's in terms of balancing health with economics. let's talk just economics for a second. gene sperling ran the national economic council for presidents obama and clinton. he is also the author of a new book, "economic dignity."

now, it's always good to have you. i grew up with gino. we made him gino because everybody is italian. the book will not be given enough service because of the context we're talking about tonight. so i also need to get you on the radio show to do more time about it. you talk about income inequality, and you talk about economic justice in ways that go far beyond what we're dealing with acutely right now in terms of the immediate and talk a lot about how we should be build better after this. i highly recommend the book for that reason. we'll have a longer discussion. in the context of the immediate, the people will look at numbers and say that's why we have to reopen. the cure is worse than the disease. we got to reopen right away because we can't take this. we're going to lose a generation of businesses. >> you know, well, chris, the

jimeny cricket song "wishing on a starks" it's a great kid song my father used to sing me. it's not much of an economic strategy for opening. you have to have the kind of trust that comes from progress and testing. tracing, perhaps on treatment. and i think what's going to happen is i think there's two big questions about how with we open, which is, one, do we do so in a way that gives the people who are going to be risk adverse no matter what their leaders say the confidence that this is right? what i think will happen is people like myself and my family, we're making our own judgments of what's safe for us. and if the economy opens too quickly and people rush back and you get a new rise in community spread, a new surge to the emergency room. all the people who are already risk adverse become even that much more risk adverse and they

are going to be harder to ever get them back because they are going to feel like fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me. the second thing about reopening that i really do think goes to the question of economic dignity. is how we reopen in terms of how we treat our workers. and i think what you saw with donald trump ordering meat workers back when you have 5,000 who have already been hospitalized and have deep symptoms, when you have poultry workers that already have faced such deregulation that they have twice the amount of serious injuries, seven times the amount of carpal tunnel syndrome. there was an oxfam story that said they -- some of them have to wear diapers because there is not time to go to a bathroom break. and when you say you are essential and you have to go back, but we are not going treat you with that dignity of ensuring your employer makes

sure you're safe, makes sure you have paid sick leave, makes sure you have hazard pay, then i think you're going to have a deeper type of harm, a feeling that people were used for other people's ends and their intrinsic value and worth as people was not realized as we reopened. >> gene, quickly before i lose you here, there's another argument they're making. that you have an interesting counter. i get all the points. we have to do better with workers. you say no, that the damage that has been sustained can't be fixed quickly. why not? >> i mean, this is the false choice that you hear chris christie and the others making let's just get it back. we'll be strong, and like there is a trade-off between the health or even accepting deaths of older loved ones for

reopening the economy. i don't think it works even as a reopening strategy because remember, you still have to convince me that it's safe to go into that restaurant. if i think that my governor, my mayor, my president has put regulations that ensure the workers coming there are truly safe. you have massive and i mean massive testing that gives people that confidence. then i'm going to reopen and i'm going stay more engaged. but how is it going to help the economy if you have not just a dramatic second wave, but you open at a time when people say wow, people rushed out. they decided they are going to football games. they're going go to the beach. if they see the illness happening, me, you, the customer the people have to make the decision to buy a car or go to a nail salon or go to a restaurant are going to stay home. they're not spending. you can't wish this economy open.

it's really about four big ts. testing, tracing, treatment and that adds up to trust. and you've got create that trust. and if you don't, i don't think you can improve the economy, and i think we could have double-digit unemployment for one to two years from now if we don't get the health part right and reopen in a careful, thoughtful way. >> so gene lays this out in a very, very comprehensive way in economic dignity, his new book. and the interesting part about it is so many of us are talking about, well, are we going to build back better now? are we doing things differently now given what we're learning? that's what his book is about. that's why i think it's such an interesting read. gene, thank you for coming on to deal with the immediate. i'll hit you to come on sirius and come on the potus channel and we'll have a longer discussion about the book. it warrants it. >> thank you so much, chris. appreciate you having me. >> be well.

so i got somebody for you who is not just a hero to us, she is a hero to the heroes. her name is rhonda rowland shearer. she is so serious about ppe and getting it personally to our health care pros on the front line, she took out a second mortgage. why? you could ask some of the veterans of ground zero after 9/11. but we'll ask rhonda herself next.

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tonight's ameri-can is a woman who wholeheartedly embodies the we before the me spirit. her name is rhonda roland shearer. she is known by some as new york's patron saint of ppe. why? well, she travels to neighborhoods hit hardest by this outbreak with a truck full of much needed ppe. and she gives it to hospital workers for free. that's the video. we're showing you right now. so how'd she buy all this stuff? she put her own home on the line taking $600,000 in debt. and no, it is not some recent fit of madness. this is what she's about. she did this after 9/11. she was at ground zero distributing millions of dollars in supplies to first responders. all of which she mobilized herself. it is a pleasure to introduce

you to rhonda on "prime time" tonight. i know you don't like being taken away from the grind of giving people the ppe, but thank you for taking a moment to be with us tonight. >> thank you, chris. i'm honored by your description. but let me point out to your audience the real heroes are the nurses, the doctors, the maintenance workers, the security officers that are all exposed to this horrible disease. and they are willing to go and march into that hospital through the doors and maybe never come back out in the same way. due to the illness. so that's what inspires me and all the different volunteers that help me. there's no way i can do this by myself. i'm safe on the outside of the hospital. passing out ppe. the real heros are those that know they're taking a risk and despite taking that risk are on

and be professional and help our whole country. >> i agree with you 99%. you are totally right about who the heros are. but the fact that they are lining up outside your truck tells us that they are not getting enough of what they need to do their job where they do the job. therefore, if not for you and your volunteers, they would be exposed to worse risk. and therefore, you must be a hero once again. >> well, i don't feel that way. i'm humbled by the suggestion of that. but truly, the seriousness of the need can't be forgotten. we have to remember these workers at all times. because they don't have what they need. and basically what we're doing is giving personal use items.

in other words a nurse or a doctor or a maintenance worker, they work their 12-hour shift. but what i do they wear at home? what mask do they have to wear home? this is what we're supplying. they can choose how to use the mask. and have the ability to share it with their family. they don't have time to shop for ppe. and let alone try to find it in and be able to pay for it. i went to all the different pharmacies outside these hospitals in very poor. >> a can't find them. >> can't find them or you find them and they're unbelievably priced. >> right. >> something that i buy for 36 cents they're selling for $4. >> i totally get it. we have problems with gouging. some call it supply and demand. i don't think so. the biggest problem is we don't make this stuff in the country,

even though it's really national security interest equipment now. we have one company in the entire country in maine making swabs for tests and ppe. we're almost nowhere. so the need is great. i looked into why hospitals wouldn't want to work with you. and the best argument you get is -- that's why you call it cut the red tape for heroes thing. that's what it is. they're saying we don't know the stuff is fda certified. i'm told it's not a problem. when she buys it it's a invoice ticket in procurement processes for new york state. i know that process intimately. it's just red tape. so you're getting around that. i want the audience to get exposure to one other thing. and you and i will not debate anymore. we'll settle on amer-can. you're that. a regular person doing extraordinary things for others. that's american. and in terms of american do attitude. how did you arrive at the conclusion that it was worth taking on that much personal debt to do this?

>> unfortunately, like so many others who served at ground zero supporting first responders as well as the families of first responders themselves, i have experienced extreme loss. my partner of 15 years chief ron spatafora, an fdny staff member, he died of ground zero-related cancer june of 2019. and here i am at the end of february, my daughter who was the one that actually initiated the 9/11 recovery supply operation had ground zero-related cancer surgery. right at the beginning of the pandemic. so i have a personal stake in this cause, and i want to

fulfill a leadership position where everybody feels the same way, and once there an an avenue to be able to take action, then they do it. i get so many e-mails now, one was from dot an 81 year-old. she said she wished he could pay for the entire operation. but she said she is on a fixed income and could send $20 to the gofundme. and this to me was like a million dollar gift. to have it be where everyday americans can participate and help these heroes. and i want to do that. and continue to do that. as long as i'm able. >> let's do this. i put up the go fund me page. i put it out on my social media. the cause is obvious to everybody. your commitment is rare. and i understand that it comes from your heart and place of

loss. and you want to see people not have to go through that loss. rhonda, thank you for sharing your story. we're happy to do the same with our audience. and i hope you keep helping people for a long time. >> thank you. thank you very much for this opportunity. >> thank you for making the most of the opportunity to help others. we are a call away if we can help get word out. be well, stay healthy. god bless. >> god bless you. thank you. >> all right. look, not everybody can do what rhonda is doing to honor our pandemic warriors, but there is something you can do each night, especially in the big cities where you have case density and a lot of worker, the health care workers. open your windows. shout your lungs out. not only is it good for you, but it is good for them. if you happen to be part of the new york city fire department you have one more way to make some noise for the healthcare angels. check this out.

[ siren ] ordinarily that noise drives me crazy. not in this context. it is america at our best. but it doesn't stop there. right back with more of tonight's amer-cans. good news, next. ion. it's kind of my quiet, alone time. audible is a routine for me. it's like a fun night school for adults. i could easily be seduced into locking myself into a place where i do nothing but listen to books. i never was interested in historical fiction before, but i'm obsessed with it now. there are a lot of like, classic and big titles that i feel like i missed out since i don't have time to read, mean i might as well listen. if i want to catch up on the news or history or learn what's going on in the world, i can download a book and listen to it. because i listened to her story over and over again, i made the decision to go ahead and follow my own dream, which was to help other veterans.

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how about a big jolt of amer-can energy for you tonight. we need the good news. we need to remember that there are good around us. near detroit, teachers and staff

from utica community schools wanted to give their seniors a special memory since to be honest, the end of their school year is going to be atypical, which is to say it's going to suck. so listen to what they did. they hand-delivered every senior in the district, roughly 2200 students caps, gowns, certificates, honor cords, and of course a token 2020 graduate lawn sign. and they did this all during teacher appreciation week. what a way to turn a sour situation into a sweet memory. thank you, educators, for teaching the graduates and the rest of us a profound lesson in gratitude. thanks for watching. stay tuned. the news continues here on cnn. they use stamps.com all the services of the post office only cheaper get a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale

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lives versus livelihood. coronavirus cases climb throughout the country. in just hours, we're expecting the worst jobs report in american history. people simply want to feed their families. and later, arrests in the killing of a young unarmed blackman shot while jogging in georgia. why his death is only now getting attention months after it happened. the victim's sister speaks with