i'm going to miss her calling me after the 1:00 and 4:00 games during football seasons to confirm the results for her pool. i'm going to miss surprising her with a visit. i'll miss making her laugh. i'll miss the way that she would smile at me when we would make eye contact across the room at family parties. i'll miss her singing "happy birthday" over the phone to me every year. i and our entire family are going to miss our nana. we love you. >> hi, jamie. it's just nana. i called to talk to you. i love you. >> beautiful tribute to a wonderful woman who is very much loved and missed. what an incredible life she lived. our thoughts go out to all the families who lost loved ones due to the coronavirus. the news continues right now.

i want to hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." chris? >> as always, coop, thank you for sharing the memories, man. really such a mindsetter for all of us. thank you. i am chris cuomo. time for me to pick up the torch and my show, too, will be committed to giving respect to the memory of nose who athose wt by making sure they don't die in vain. so, welcome to "prime time." let's be clear with each other. there's no time to pretend. we have not met the moment. we have not prevailed on testing. none of the states that have re-opened, none, has the capacity to test and trace the way they need to. people still can't even get tested in too many hotspots. this is the reality, and until this president starts taking desperate actions instead of just makes desperate claims, you can't expect any of us to have the confidence we need in this country to re-open. that only comes with the truth

that testing and tracing can provide. also tonight, we will be finding facts in arbery's murder in georgia. we have the man who shot the video. it is time for the real deal. what do you say? let's get after it. look, simple question tells the story, if we met the moment and prevailed on testing, why are governors today begging the president for money to test and trace? the only thing that we have the most of in this world is deaths when it comes to covid. imagine the families of all the lost loved ones having to see and hear this. >> america has risen to the task. we have met the moment, but testing certainly is a very important function, and we have prevailed. >> we've not prevailed. now also, remember, last week,

trump said testing was overrated. the week before that, he said it wasn't really necessary. now he says it's so important and we've prevailed? and still nothing about how to get the manpower and money to states to trace, which matters just as much. but he does get the importance when it is on him. when he is the one at risk. not you. not me. now he gets it. look at the white house. testing and tracing every day all around him since just two staffers have been infected. and masks are now a must in the west wing. you saw your boy, jared kushner, right there wearing one. other staffers as well. but not the president. why? >> well, if they're a certain distance from me or if they're a certain distance from each oath e they do. in the case of me, i'm not close to anybody so, obviously, in my case i'm very far away from everyone.

>> only thing he's not close to is the reality of this situation no one gets near him? like the elderly veterans he was breathing all over the other day, like the staff and secret service that are around him all the time? look, right now we have to be walking the walk and taking desperate measures to get the real information that will give people confidence to re-open. let's focus on that. put the noise aside. you know that stuff's not true. let's bring in people to speak truth. two top medical minds, sanjay gupta and andy slavitt. fellows, thank you. andy, quickly, on the political side, the idea of what it takes for the consumer to come back out and access the markets, the commodities, the stores, to create economic activity. why is testing and tracing key to that? >> because, good evening, chris,

i think the answer is that if you think about what testing and tracing does, it gives us a peace of mind to know that we're not infected and that if someone gets infected that the community can quickly figure out who is infected and when that happens, you'll be more comfortable getting on public transportation again, you'll be more comfortable going to work again, you'll be more comfortable acting and buying again. those are the things that will drive the economy up. so testing and tracing i think are not just public health investme investments, they're really investments in getting our economy back. >> sanjay, you've been tracking this from jump. and the statement i made there, that none of the states that has re-opened, if you were to go to those governors and they were honest, none would tell you, oh, yeah, we can test and trace exactly as we need to right now, we're good. not one. what does that tell us? >> yeah, i mean, they can't do it, and they know that the numbers of people who are going to become infected and the number of people who need testing is going to go up as they start to re-open. i mean, this is -- this is, you

know, i get the impatience, you know, people want to open up, but there's been strict you know, pretty easy-to-follow criteria, these dating criteria, none of the states sort of follow that. i'm amazed this got lost in the conversation, 14-day downward trend, having the testing in place and ultimately being able to trace as andy slavitt was saying. they're not there. that's data. that's evidence. >> well, sanjay, just as a quick follow on that, one of the big reasons the states are re-opening when not meeting the criteria, nobody is busting their chops. you're not hearing the president say, hey, you're not meeting the standard. he's not letting anybody on the task force chide anybody or point a finger at them because he's pushing re-opening, it seems, at any cost. >> yeah, that's a problem. you do get a sort of cognitive distansidence out there. the officials, the coronavirus

task force, all along i think they have been saying things knowing that they're going to have to ease the country into some of this. they announced the 15-day pause on march 15th, they knew it wasn't going to be 15 days at that point but how to balance the messaging without shocking the country too much. the same is true here. these criteria, i think the states need to follow, they exist for a reason. i'm nervous about these states starting to open up too early. going to have two, three, weeks, before we see the impact of that. it takes a while from exposure, the time people develop simple t symptoms, if they do. the numbers are going to go up. that's going to be too bad. it's going to in places put us behind again. >> andy, this has been a pet peeve for sanjay. i want to get attention to it. it's not that we're not testing enough, the tests aren't that great. the president teed this up for us tonight by saying we have the best, we have the best.

why is the accuracy rate 15% to 20% false negative? that seems very high to me. >> well, it appears in some of the newer tests coming on the market, there's a tradeoff. the ones that are going to be a little more scaleable a little quicker accuracy. look, i think sanjay is the expert here. if we know the 75% or 80% accurate test and we use it knowing that, then we know when we need to -- if we have someone who's symptomatic to do it twice or three times. you know, that's just, you know, we just have to take that into account. right now, i think it's a very low sensitivity test relative to other tests. there's a lot of reasons for that. but the truth is that we can work with that. i don't think anybody is saying we need perfection in order to

start to move to open. again, we just need surveillance, we just need to be able to understand what's happening, we need to be able to take reasonably good guesses. the numbers need to tell us what they tell us. if someone is -- if we're pretty sure someone doesn't have it but not positive, then we should tell them to it that way, not overstate it. >> also, sanjay, another study tonight out about hydrochloroquine, what do you take away from it? is this still an open question? >> a little bit, but i think we've pretty muches you know, gotten so much evidence that hydroxychloroquine especially if people who are severely ill, not only is it not providing a benefit, it could significantly provide a harm as well especially in people who have some pre-existing heart problems. so i think certainly, you know, tho there's two issues why. the reason it's not finally dispensed with, you still need what's called randomized trials. need to take a certain group of people, another group of people, and randomly give them the medication or not give them the

medication. these are still what are called observational studies. the second thing is the other open question is, could this potentially help in people earlier in the course of the disease, not later? the evidence does not look good. this certainly isn't the panacea many thought it might be. everybody wants effective treatments. there's no question about that, chris. i think if you look at the data coming out of new york, 25 hospitals, your brother talked about this a couple weeks ago. the early data did not look good. now yowhen you look at this stu in "jama, "journal of the american medical association," it sort of really makes that case as well. >> 1,438 patients with coronavirus admitted to 25 new york city-area hospitals. the death rate for taking hydroxychloroquine and not was about the same. patients who took the drug in combination with what we call a zpac were actually more than twice as likely to suffer cardiac arrest. so, clearly, it's not risk-free.

sanjay, andy, fellows, thank you for keeping it real for the audience. >> you got it. >> i appreciate it. >> thank you. so, look, politics. okay? politics is hurting us here. it is setting us back even in the race to find the cure. why? well, the trump administration just defunded research that is vital to helping stop this pandemic. i'm supposed to state it as a question, but i don't get how it's an open question, so let's bring in why i feel that way. the virus hunter working on that project is warning that politics has no place here and it comes at a real cost. hear it from him directly, next. when the world gets complicated, a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealth management, your dedicated adviser can give you straightforward advice and tailored recommendations. that's the clarity you get with fidelity wealth management.

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adversity came to town. so we looked it in the eye. and it won't be us... that blinks first. with unlimited from metro and the new iphone se... ...gabriel rules. after a hard day on the job... ...he's still working hard making sure a family tradition... ...stays a tradition. get the brand-new iphone se for less than a hundred bucks when you switch to metro. and right now, get four lines of unlimited for just twenty-five bucks each. metro. it's all gabriel needs to rule his day. remember, no one has praised how china handled coronavirus in

our government more than trump did. dozens of type times since thi started he talked about teheir transparency, what a good job they were doing, until they needed someone to blame. didn't work for them politically anymore. then his puppydog puppets and cronies came after china. >> the chinese may have unleashed a global pandemic on the rest of us. funded in part by you, by u.s. taxpayers, through the national institutes of health. >> liked him bet were a bowtie. then it got an echo from his buddies in congress. >> the nih gives this $3.7 million grant to the wuhan institute of sigh rovirology. i called on secretary azhar to halt this grant to the wuhan institute of virology. >> china bad, china scary, china make virus to kill us. even at his own briefings. >> the nih under the obama administration in 2015 gave that

lab $3.7 million in a grant. why would the u.s. give a grant like that to china? >> the obama administration gave them a grant of $3.7 million? i've been hearing about that. and we've instructed that if any grants are going to that area, we're looking at it literally about an who ago and also early in the morning, we will end that grant very quickly, but it was granted quite a while ago. they were granted a substantial amount of money. we're going to look at it and take a look. >> china bad, obama bad. china and obama very bad. that's what they're selling you. okay. what do the facts tell us? well, his guy, okay, who runs our national intelligence, all right, the director whose main credential is being trump's guy says we don't know that china created this virus in a lab. pompeo, all right, now, you talk about loyal to the president, pompeo's got to be at the top of

the list. we don't know for a fact that that's what happened, but, boy, does it sound good, boy, is it satisfying to find a bad guy, right? so they did pull money. the money that had been planned for an american company called echohealth, or ecohealth, that has an alliance working with labs all over the world including the virology lab in wuhan. okay? so, peter dozik is ecohealth's president and he joins us now. thank you for taking the opportunity. >> my pleasure, chris. >> so, let's have not the sophisticated conversation that you are capable of, but let's talk to it in the terms that it is being discussed. china did this to get us, and if you're working with china, you're helping china. and even if you don't mean to help them, we can't risk it. got to pull the funding because we cannot have people helping china to create viruses to kill us. is that what you were doing? >> well, number one, you know,

i'm a scientist, so i deal in facts, and these are the facts. these viruses are found throughout the world in wildlife, in some parts of the world like china and southeast asia they're very common and very diverse. this is where they originate and it's people who interact with wildlife in those places that allow the virus to bget into ou population. it's in our national interest in the u.s. to be working in the places where the viruses exist, so that's why we do what we do. we try to find these viruses and try and stop them before they emerge. that's what we were doing on the ground there. that's the collaboration we had with china. what better way for the u.s. to get ready farn emerging disease than to work in the place where they exist? >> what about the president and his friends' concerns that china did this to us on purpose? do you believe that there's proof of the same? >> there's absolutely no evidence for that at all.

a wide group of experts from the national academies, from other scientist around the world, have refuted those ideas. they've put them to bed. there's no evidence this was a created that was created in a lab. there is no evidence at all that it ever was in a lab. in fact, we've worked with the lab in wuhan for 15 years now. we know everything they do. and we know that they do not have that virus in the lab prior to the sars outbreak. it's never been found prior to the sars outbreak. >> how do you know they didn't have it in the lab? >> well, because we found about, you know, over 500 of these bat coronaviruses in collaboration with our colleagues in china. we arrange the fieldwork. we see all the data that comes through from the lab as soon as it's done. we've been doing this for 15 years. i've worked with this group for 15 years. i've never seen any evidence of anyone saying things that aren't true or even hinting of anything untoward from that lab. it just did not happen. >> okay. so what about the argument that

in the interest of caution, you can do your research, we'll give you grants, you can work all over the world, just not there. wuhan is a hotspot, we don't trust it. let's keep money out of there. >> yeah, i mean, i have no problem -- if the nih tells no the to work with a lab, we will not work with a lab. in fact, we put in this grant last year, and what happens is you get scored. we got the top 3% score for priority to be funded. puts you there throurough a sys checks the potential collaborators and preapprove who we should work with. we work with who they tell us to work with. if nih says you shouldn't be work bing with them, we will not. what shouldn't have happened is take away the whole grant. only a small portion of that was destined for wuhan, anyway. we now can't do the work we do. this work, by the way, has been used by the people who produced the drug, remdesivir, the only

drug that shows evidence of working against covid-19 in clinical trials. that's directly affecting american lives. that's a real shame and very unfortunate, and i'd like to know from nih why they canceled this grant. >> why do you think it is? >> well, they told us for convenience. they said that it has -- it doesn't fit with the priorities of nih anymore. well, ten months ago they ranked it in the top 3% of priorities to fund. so i just don't understand. we've written them an email. we asked them why. we've had no response at all. >> you're a genius scientist. you know exactly why this is happening. this is about politics. wuhan has stink on it. and you just heard a reporter in that piece say, you're not giving money to china, are you? like that obama guy did. because you got to remember the source it was coming from. and he said, oh, no, no, no, we're not giving them any money, your grant was next up. it's all about giving money to china in terms of the optics. so they pulled the money. is there any other better reason that you need? >> well, look, you know, we do our science. we want to know where pandemics

originate. if pandemics originate in china, we need to be on the ground there looking for them. we can't just turn a blind eye and hope for the best. that's not a strategy. it's in the u.s.' national interest to have people on the ground collaborating with china to find out where these viruses are coming from and to stop them. otherwise, we suffer and that's what we're exactly seeing now. these bat-origin coronavirusens were exactly what we were working with, exactly what covid-19 is. >> now, peter daszak, you have said that, look, what you do is front line pandemic prevention by identifying the viruses and figuring out how they understand it. if you're not in china, specifically wuhan, then we're leaving a hole in a significant piece of what we know to be the front line right thousand. it's not just about money. it's about a material change in our ability to prevent. i want to make sure the audience hears that and i thank you for taking the opportunity to make

that case to the audience tonight. please let us know if you get any more information about why this was justifiable. >> absolutely, chris. we'll come straight to you. we've not heard anything in two weeks. i don't hold out much hope. we will certainly try again. >> all right. thank you, sir. and also a hat tip to "60 minutes" for bringing attention to this story. thank you to cbs news. new developments in the murder case of ahmaud arbery. okay? more video is surfacing, but it does not help us understand the basis for the use of force in this situation. the most crucial piece of evidence was recorded by the man we have on the show tonight. the tape of the jog that led to arbery's death. key witness in the crossfire giving us his story, next. ♪ ♪

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all right. let's get back to georgia. ahmaud arbery was killed more than two months ago there. an arrest only came after a tape was made public showing large parts of the altercation. a tape that police had from jump. so, yes, one of the few memes that are true on social media is that it wasn't the police seeing the tape that made a difference. it was us seeing the tape. what else have we not seen? what else do we not know? we know the federal government is now weighing in on whether it has a hate crime. it's a high bar. and often those investigations wind up very disappointing. what will happen here. police had video from day one. remember it. what we don't understand, really, is why this happened and why it was on video in the first place. so let's bring in the man who

knows the answer. william brian. along with his attorney, kevin goff. gentlemen, thank you for taking the opportunity. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> good evening. >> bryan, you are known to roddie as friends, correct? >> that's right. >> and in the police report, the mcmichaels referred to a rod di. i'm assuming that was you. yes? >> okay. hold on, chris. you've been a prosecutor and you can imagine this prosecutor that's been in this case 24 hours, going to start throwing stuff around her living room if you start doing her job for her. okay? because as good as you are, she'd probably rather do it herself. you know what we can talk about without causing problems for anybody. and i know you're trying. but this man cannot be answering substantive questions about the case. and i -- if you feel that we've

misled you in some way, i'm sorry. >> no, no, no, no, no. it's not about misleading. it's about just being clear for the audience. i always believe the best opportunity the media can give you is the opportunity to tell the truth in a way that helps you. that's all i'm saying. i don't know why you would dispute the notion of the man's presence at the situation, but that's fine. let me move on. you, counselor, should weigh in whenever you feel like it. so, mr. bryan, how did you come to be in the car videotaping that day? >> okay. we're not going there. >> you don't want to talk about that, either. all right. let's do this. you are afraid of the facts of this case, counselor, why? >> sir, i'm not afraid of anything. and i'm eercertainly not -- >> sure. >> -- with all due respect. i'm not afraid of you, i respect you. >> i respect you. >> you're a brilliant, a very good prosecutor. and my client is a mechanic with a high school education and if you've ever been to the high schools around here, that's not necessarily saying much.

okay? and i don't mind if the board of education doesn't like it. you know, i'm not their friend, either, okay? but you can't be asking him questions about the substance of the evidence, because like i said, there's a young lady that's been in this case less than 24 hours who's going to be throwing stuff around her living room. i don't want her mad at me or mad at her client. >> i understand. >> on the other hand, if you want to ask him about his experiences here, how he feels, i don't have a problem with that. >> okay. let me ask him one question then i want to -- >> i have gone over this. >> mr. goff, you have a different -- >> sure, sure. >> just for the record, i do not believe that a level of education is in any way commensurate with common sense or savvy or understanding everything that you need to know about this case just through life experience. i want you to know that. i don't care that he only went to high school. plenty of people have done that and achieved great things, let alone know why the heck they were in a car videotaping something like this. let's put it to the side. mr. bryan, what do you want the audience to know about your role, your feelings, and your

sense of responsibility for this situation? >> is that a multiple question, chris? >> mr. goff, let him answer it. i'm sure he'll do a good job. you can always answer -- you can amend after. mr. bryan? >> i would just like to say, first of all, i am very sorry to the family. i pray for them every night as well as my own family. >> all right. mr. goff, do you think that your client should be understood -- >> yes. >> -- as part of the altercation that day? >> no, sir. no, sir. not at all. >> because? >> because my client -- my client has done nothing wrong here. he's committed no crime, and this is a horrible tragedy. this young man has lost his life and you've seen the video. on a scale of one to ten, that's just -- it's horrifying to watch. it's painful to watch.

even for a former prosecutor like yourself. i'm sure you've seen lots of grisly incidents. so this is a terrible matter, and some people are going to have to answer for what they did. but my client is not responsible for that. my client was unarmed. my client hasn't shot anybody. my client hasn't been in so much as a fistfight since she was in high school. you can take a look at him. he's 5'6", 5'7". this is not a gentleman who's out there looking for a fight. >> i understand. >> or looking for trouble. >> often -- as we both know, again -- >> okay. >> -- mr. gough, i'm not putting your guy on trial, okay? that's not my job. >> okay. >> my job is this doesn't make any damn sense, this situation. somebody wound up dead. as we both know -- >> oh, we -- >> -- the smaller you get, the more likely you are -- >> we can agree -- >> -- to use a weapon to make any kind of show of force. i don't care about the size of the people involved. it's about the size of their heart and size of their brain. what i want to know is this, when you say your client should

not be considered as part of the altercation, i am assuming -- >> he is not considered part of the altercation, chris. >> okay. >> he's a witness. that's all. that's all he's ever been. >> okay. good. and i will take that answer. as guidance until i hear any different from an investigative authority which i have not. now, the mcmichaels seem to know him. i want to give you a chance, counselor. the fact that the mcmichaels know roddie or roddie knows them, why is it wrong to suggest, therefore, he knew about their intentions that day? >> there is no relationship whatsoever between roddie and the mcmichaels, and with all due respect, while i'm not at liberty to go into all the details, but i don't think it's any secret that the relationship between roddie's fiancee and the district attorney's office here, it's utterly absurd to think that she would ever have any

dealings with these people. you just don't understand, chris. i mean, you -- >> that's why i'm talking to you. >> you've heard things about how bad it is down here. >> first of all, i at nom condemning an area. i don't understand why no arrest was made. i could know why someone went of of the way to paint the false picture of the victim, but these are not questions for you to answer. i don't want to impugn the character of the community or the police force other than to state curiosity at their inaction. that's why this interview was so important. if it weren't for your client's tape, i don't know that anything would have happened here. is that something, let me do back to -- >> i think you r you're right. >> hold on, let me go back to mr. bryan on that. mr. bryan, i hope you understand that your decision to videotape this may be what makes all the difference. in the administration of justice. in this case. are you aware of that? >> yes, sir. if there wasn't a tape, then we wouldn't know what happened.

>> and how do you feel about that? >> i would --. i hope that it, in the end, brings justice to the family. and peace to the family. >> mr. gough, audience is listening now. >> yes, sir. >> what do you want them to understand about why your client was where he was, if it is not true that it was done in coordination with the mcmichaels? >> chris, i don't think it's any secret. my client lives in that neighborhood. >> uh-huh. >> he's at his house minding his own business, and i'm trying not to complicate anybody else's job. he's at his house minding his own business and things happen and in a matter of minutes, his life has been changed forever and this family, the arberys,

their lives have been changed forever, you know, and it's sometimes difficult in these situations to see the bigger picture. mother's day was not pleasant for roddie here. wasn't pleasant for me. wasn't the mother's day i was hoping for. but at the same time, roddie is going to have other mother's days. that is if nobody takes a potshot at him. the arberys will never be able to spend another mother's day with their son. so, you know, for them, this is -- it's hard to imagine anything worse that could have happened. >> i'll get back to the fact pattern before we end, but let me ask you a couple side questions because of your -- >> okay. >> -- your -- >> yeah. >> -- apparent perspective on this place. why do you think somebody might take a potshot at your client? >> because certain people out there for reasons that are not clear are deliberately putting all kinds of misinformation out there to the extent, and i can't

speak for the gbi, but i'm sure that that however well intentioned, that is hindering and hampering and impeding their investigation. >> like what? >> there's so much distraction. the people out there that are talking about my client being some kind of vigilante, they're conjuring up conspiracy theories that don't exist. saying that my client was armed. everyone knows he wasn't armed. that's never been an issue from day one. and it, you know, why people would continue to put things out like that, to suggest that somehow he's in cahoots with whatever's been going on up on the third floor at the courthouse with the d.a.s, he -- look, greg mcmichael worked for d.a.'s office for many years. >> uh-huh. >> he was a glen county police officer before that. my client does not have, quote/unquote, strong ties to law enforcement. he doesn't have ties to law enforcement.

>> i got you. >> and since he has been in this -- since he's been in this relationship with this young lady, i can assure you that whether he realized or not, he had no friends up at the courthouse. >> all right. >> and all this conversation and these letters and this legal analysis while his name may have come up in it, nobody up there with all due respect gives a darn whether he lives or dies. so the idea that we have anything to do with this delay in the prosecution of this case -- >> okay. >> -- we've done everything we could do. >> listen, i got you. vy i have no interest of intrigue of local politics. for those tuning in right now, what is your reservation, again, for your client doing what he's imminently capable of what he is, why he was where he was, why he videotaped what he did, what he understands what happened that day. why don't you want him to say what can only help clear his name? >> because, chris, in america as

i believe you're well aware, we try our cases in courts of law. where we've come to in this country over the years where important cases are being tried in newspapers and on television and on blogs and stuff, that is not serving the interest of justice. >> but he's not on trial. >> if you were the prosecutor in this case -- >> he's not going to be on trial, is he? >> he doesn't control anything. he's a pawn in a much larger game. and he has no say so in that. >> but he is a witness and there are witnesses on all the time so the american people can understand maybe that there's a miscarriage of justice because the facts is they're being evinced from people on the ground who saw and heard and experienced give a different picture than what they're getting from authorities. that can be very helpful. >> and when you feel that you are not being treated right, you should speak out. if people won't listen to you, you need to speak out further. >> okay. >> that's exactly what happened in this case. this family wanted justice. and i'm not commenting on the mcmichaels. that's not my place.

okay? and they've got rights and they're presumed innocent, too, but they spoke out. they wanted justice. they weren't treated right. and they kept talking and nobody was listening. and i know some of the people who were trying to help them and nobody was listening. >> is your client one of them? was he one of the people trying to help? is your client one of the people who was trying to help the arberys? >> he was helping that day. yes, sir. but for him, there would be no video. >> let me -- that's true. let me ask you about the mcmichaels really quickly. based on your understanding of the community and the relationships involved, do you believe the mcmichaels had some kind of connection to ahmaud arbery at least in their own perspective of understanding? >> chris, honestly, i don't know, and there's been so much misinformation out there and gossip and speculation, i don't want to add to it. >> well, the police report, the police report --

>> i heard so many crazy things -- >> but mr. gough, let's forget about community hearsay. i don't care about chatty cathies either. what i'm saying is in the police report the mcmichaels made it very clear -- >> yes. >> -- to the police in the moment where they were on the scene with the victim lying in his own pool of blood that they thought they knew this guy. that they had been on the lookout for this guy. that hay identified him from past experience of seeing him and knowing him. i don't think that surprises you. why? what do you think the mcmichaels believed about arbery? >> my understanding, chris, and i've been in this case for 72 hours, and i'm playing catch-up here, but my understanding was that this young man as he lay there with not so much as a blanket or a towel over his head, okay, but as he's there, nobody knows who he is. his family was not there, and i

can only assume they were not there because they were not notified and they were not notified because nobody knew. now, i can't speak for the mcmichaels and what's in their mind. all i'm hearing is well after this incident took place, nobody could identify him. now, why the mcmichaels do or say what they do then or now, i can't speak to that, but if the police couldn't identify him, it may be that -- i don't know, you're going to have to ask the mcmichaels or their lawyer. >> they have been given the opportunity. >> my understanding was -- well, they're sitting in a jail cell as far as i know without counsel, which i'm sure for greg mcmichael is an experience he never thought he'd experience. but that's not why we're here. >> all right. >> what i'm saying is my understanding is the police couldn't figure out who he was for some time. >> right. >> and they should have been treating that body with respect and that young man with respect even before they knew who his mother and father was. >> well, no question about that. >> not saying they -- from what

i heard, nobody knew who he was. >> nobody -- >> they couldn't identify him. >> no question about that. >> that's what i heard. >> there's a difference between his name and people thinking they knew him from earlier activities because mcmichael, himself, says in the police report in the moment that the police get to the scene that they knew who this guy was and that they remembered hip frm fr something else, that's why they took off after him and they had information about him being involved in other crimes that we can't track down anywhere other than this video of him, arguably, trespassing on a construction site. so, just to be clear as we end this interview, your statement, mr. gough, on behalf of william bryan, also known as roddie, is he wasn't working with the mcmichaels, he wasn't called to the scene by the mcmichaels and he wasn't videoing in any way to help the mcmichaels. is that all true from your

perspective? >> he wasn't there for the mcmichaels at all. i can say that and he doesn't have any relationship with the mcmichaels. >> and the one sticking point that aye heard you try to explain before but hasn't met satisfaction with me yet is when you see something that you know is wrong, even though you're videotaping it in the molt, eme efsh though things happened before that he didn't videotape, you call the police. i don't care about his education. everybody knows that. you can be in high school. i've met many people, so have you, in high school who will eat our lunch despaite owl our education intellectually. why didn't he call 911? >> well, first of all, he can't use the phone for a phone ca call -- >> i know, you can hang up and call 911. stop videotaping and call 911. >> chris, chris -- >> yes. >> with all due respect. >> please. >> feel free to give the answer for me, okay? if you're asking me my answer --

>> yes. >> -- i can tell you that in the real world things are much different. it's one thing to watch it on tv. it's another thing to do it in real life. and -- >> calling 911? >> he's not a young man. >> what's the difference? >> i hope we all know how to call 911. >> but what i'm saying -- what point are you trying to make? right now i'm videotaping you -- >> my point to you -- >> -- i decide to stop because now i'm going to call 911. i call 911. what's so complicated, mr. gough? >> okay. if you'll go back and look at that video -- >> yes, sir. >> -- if my client had been two seconds, two seconds later, getting where he was, there wouldn't be any video. not one worth watching. not one anybody would care about. there'd be nothing -- there'd fwhog to see. >> i agree. >> other than a young man bleeding out on the street. >> i agree. >> in the middle of the day. >> i agree. >> i think if you go back and look at the circumstances, putting aside the logistical issues about making telephone calls while you're using your phone, i think if you go back

and look at the circumstances, there was no question the police were on their way. i think the -- as i understand it, the sirens were audible almost immediately. >> okay. >> and they were on the scene for what felt like seconds but couldn't have been -- couldn't have been more than a minute. now, you've got better access to information than i do, and maybe i misunderstand thats, but i'll be honest with you, under the circumstances i don't think that anybody would have thought there was any question as to the police were coming. >> all right. kevin gough -- >> frankly, if the police had gotten there a few seconds earlier, a minute earlier, this man still might be alive today. >> right. maybe. depends on how extreme the wounds were. it happened all very quickly. i'm not in the blame phase. nobody should be. mr. gough, i appreciate you taking this opportunity, and mr. bryan, i appreciate you taking it as well. i understand why you're afraid of getting caught up in the case and making people upset and -- i get it all, but i do want you to know this. i don't agree with your

counselor about one thing. i -- mechanics, you know, my brother is a mechanic. i was raised by mechanics. i'm sure that you are more than competent -- i don't care about your education. you know what you did that day. you know why you did it and know how you feel about it. has nothing to do with education. i want you to know the opportunity will always remain open to you here and, counsel, you as well. not going to limit your capability to help people and convey information just because of what degree you have on your wall. i just want you to know that, mr. bryan. i respect you and appreciate you being here. counselor, you as well. thank you. >> thank you, sir. >> all right. all right. let's take a break. we'll be right back. adversity came to town and said, "show me what you're made of." so we showed it our people,

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all right. let's bring in a real former prosecutor, laura coates. i was not. i was, you know, i was correcting enough in the record with the lawyer. that is an ancillary detail. but, laura, the problem for rotty brian is mcmichael in the moment identifies him as somebody who tries to cut off

arbery. that's mcmichael saying it. it's not rotty brian. his counselor says that is not true. he had no role. he was not working with them. what's your takeaway and what do you want to know going forward in this case? >> well, the million-dollar question here is was his presence there an availability to videotape because he was coincidencely there or because he was complicit with the mcmichael family in actually killing ahmaud arbery? if it was pure coincidence, if he was simply as observer, it would be odd he was so reluctant to come forward and at least some of your questions. however, if he's complicit in some way, and we don't have enough facts to know he is. georgia law says you can be complicit and party to a crime if you encourage, somehow are involved in a criminal activity, and you can be held accountable the same as somebody who actually fired the gun. so his reluctance is based on what he thinks the prosecutors may be looking for. i look at this case, chris, saying to myself, why were you there, why did you know to

videotape and what did you do afterward? how did you know them? what did you hear? what am i not seeing on the video? for that he needs to go before the grand jury and testify and get his answered locked in. >> right. >> albeit 75-plus days later. >> right. now, look, some of the sources i have around the state side of the investigation says he has been cooperative. he is considered a witness right now. that could change. because the other side of the equation matters just as much. give me a quick take. the mcmichaels saying in the moment. remember, laura, our audience doesn't understand the way you are when you trained. to say in the moment when the cops showed up when you have just killed somebody is better than what you say a week later. and they acted like they knew who this guy was. not rotty, arbery. that they knew him. they had identified him for something else and they knew it was him. how important is that part of the backstory of what was in the mcmichaels' heads? >> extraordinarily. because -- extraordinary because

if you say it in the moment, the law essentially says you have not conjured some reason to lie. it's considered more credible if you say it in a split second as opposed to reflection and thinking about what you should have said. and in, in fact, they did know him or had some reason to believe they actually knew him, you've got issues of profiling and what their motivation really was. >> right. it doesn't make it right what they did, but it gives you an understanding of why they did something so wrong. laura coates, pro, thank you. >> absolutely. >> we'll be right back. wayfair has way more ways to renovate your home, from inspiration to installation. like way more vanities perfect for you. nice. way more unique fixtures and tiles. pairing. ♪

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time for my favorite time of the night. giving it to "cnn tonight" with don lemon, the man who a single piece of fruit can define his entire identity. >> hey, chris, nice job with that interview. i had the -- his fiance on last night. >> i went to school