hey, everybody, i'm chris cuomo. this is actually the second hour for us tonight because we're subbing in for coop, but welcome to "prime time." within 48 hours, 48 states will reopen in some way. we're back, says the president. are we? even if we do it unintelligently, even if we do

it in a way that opens up to risk? we always knew we had to reopen. you know when they would say, to reopen or not? we knew we had to reopen, it's always been about how. the president has never talked to you about how. why? it's too hard. why do you think? reopen, vaccine or not. reopen, testing or not. reopen. why? because that's what you want to hear, that's what i want to hear. but that's b.s. politics. and let me tell you something, democrats, you're getting played, too, because you're the party of no because trump is the party of yes. reopen, yay! you guys, but we have to, but we have to. but we have to. that plays as no. we all have to get on the same page. it is not a question of whether to reopen or not. we have to reopen. there is no other choice. the only issue for our leaders is how. like wisconsin, where you have a weird legal battle and nobody wants to work with each other, because of this political b.s. where left and right is everything and reasonable means

nothing. so they reopen with no rules. the wild west, says the governor. is that the best? no testing plan to prevent any type of outbreak? that's where we are right now. we have to take a look at the situation, we have to look at the facts, and we have to figure out the best way to get where we want to be. now, also tonight, that same formula applies to the case in georgia. we have new video that gives more context to what the accused thought about ahmaud arbery. were they right? we have a better answer than ever tonight. what do you say? facts first. let's get after it. all right. so the president says he knows what's going on. i want to talk to someone else.

i want to talk science. it's good to have you, professor. don't freak out, i'm not going to drag you into politics, i promise. >> thanks for having me on the show, chris. >> i want to tee it up for you, because that's the challenge. we're playing the question of this false binary proposal, reopen or not? the president is on the side of reopening, and anybody who qualifies that with this nasty talk of testing and tracing, very tedious. this discussion of masks, maddening. they're not about reopening if they're talking to you about those things. you fall into that camp. what do you want people to know about what the real choice is at play? >> when you're going out, you have to know the risks. just like you, i want to get back out. i want to go to a bar, i want to go to a restaurant. but i want to do that safely and

use. but i want to do that safely and make sure that it's data driven in the decision that we actually use. so that's where i come from when i'm thinking and analyzing situations about what my day-to-day life should look like. >> what i asked the professor to do, he wrote a really beautiful piece, a study of the where and how. it's the how. he's all about the how. i believe that's the only question for us. when you look at wisconsin, what bothers you about it elementally about something we could do, getting back to the bar and restaurant, but not how they do it, why? >> so they went out and they celebrated. all of a sudden you end up with people in an enclosed space, and with all the data coming out with publications of scientists on the front line show where there are these large spots with

outbreaks occurring, and it just seems like you'll go a few steps backwards by doing this particular plan. >> which is really no plan. which is to just open up with no spacing, no covering, no kind of discretion. we see something similar when it comes to even open spaces. indoor, obviously, is a big exacerbating factor. but even outside, the scenes in central park. everybody wants to go outside, the seasons are changing, it's getting to be beach season and lake season and park season. what is the right way in terms of how to do it? >> so if you're in an outdoor space, the risk drops down straightaway. but you've also got to consider what the current prevalence of the disease is in your community, and it still is quite high in new york. so if you are outside and you are in a park, we still should be practicing appropriate physical distancing between members that aren't in your household. if they're in your household, then you can sit on the same rug

together. but if you are meeting up with people that are not in your household, we need at least six feet apart in order to stop these transmission chains between houses. >> oddly, my 17-year-old daughter says that if you're in the same household, you must be at least 15 miles away from where she is when she's at a park or the beach. so i will have to remind her of the science involved here. to the beaches. california is reopening, but they are following something that does sound like it came out of your research and your recommendations. you can go to the beach. you can run on the beach, you can run in and swim at the beach, but you cannot sunbathe. why is that a fair compromise, in your mind? >> well, again, outdoor spaces pose low risk as long as you are maintaining that social distance. you don't want to be in the spray zone of somebody's talking, somebody's sneezing or

coughing, you want to keep that distance away. so going for a jog along the beach, going for a surf, just a walk poses very little risk. but when you are stationary, someone is going to come along and sit beside you, and you end up closing that distance down. i don't see a huge problem with a solitary sunbather, but we're creatures of habit and we start coming close together, and you just might inadvertently break that zone, and then again start a new transmission chain from what should be a nice, relaxing, energizing time outdoors. >> so it's distance and duration. how close are you and how exposed are you and for how long? now, the boogeyman here, we're getting a break on it right now because the school year is effectively over just about everywhere. but in the fall, it will be back, and that is the big challenge.

we're talking about colleges now. but k-12 is going to be the big sweep, professor, because people can't go back to work if their k-12ers don't have somewhere to go. how do you do that safely? >> my son, he wants to go to school. my daughter wants to go to school. i want them at school. and i know that's on everybody's mind. we want that answer. and, unfortunately, we don't have it. the fantastic thing that we do have in the united states is time. we're not going back to school this year, but we've got four months before school starts back up in september. and thankfully there are countries around the world that haven't got the same disease burden that we have, but they're starting schools back up. we have time to get the data to make good decisions about whether schools should open in person come the fall. i know we want those plans now, but we do have time. plan for the worst.

it may be remote. but if we get great data that says children are not involved in the transmission of this, then we can go back to a normal-looking -- it will be adjusted, but some sort of school schedule. we have time to get good data for this. >> and, of course, the more prudent you are now, the less cases you have carrying into the fall when you have a whole exacerbation of different factors. the way you outline what we have to take into consideration in the classroom really is sobering. it really is the worst of everything. you got the same air circulating, you got the density, you got people close to each other for long periods, you have lots of same surface touching, you have water fountains, social bathrooms, lunchrooms, the transportations. they really are the perfect combination of everything we have to look at, and professor, you really do give us the best cause for optimism right now which is time. don't rush it. we shouldn't have been rushing any of this, but that's the

political part. that's what you cannot give us an answer to and you're probably better off staying out of it. professor aaron bromage, thank you so much for being here tonight. the best to your family and the best to you. >> thank you so much for having me on your show tonight. >> the pleasure is mine, and i hope you got this at home. it's about how. those are the considerations. he could say, yeah, beaches. yay! he'd be a little bit more popular, i bet you. now he's got this comma. comma, but. but that's the big deal. the "but" is everything for us right now, how you do it. so whatever you think of the president's talking points on this pandemic, i'm telling you, he's playing it the right way in terms of how you reward your politicians, all right? he may be outmaneuvering some of his fiercest critics on this in the messaging. all right, here's the argument. the democrats are being cautious. they're saying, take it easy, we got to go slow, we got to wait.

it's frustrating americans. let's test with andrew yang. he's here next. what's the right way politically? ♪ ♪ unilever, the makers of dove, hellmann's, vaseline, and more, is donating millions of products to frontline aid organizations like feeding america and direct relief. to get help or give help, join us at weareunitedforamerica.com. ♪ when you have depression, it can plunge you into deep, dark lows. and, can leave you feeling extremely sad and disinterested. overwhelmed by bipolar depression? ask about vraylar.

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adversity came to town. so we looked it in the eye. and it won't be us... that blinks first. the only question people want to know more than anything is when do we get back? the president's answer, right now, brother and sister, right now. i don't care about testing, i don't care about vaccines, i don't care about masks, i don't even wear one. let's open up, i'm with you. now, what are his opponents saying? what is the left saying? what are the democrats saying? well, we have to figure out how to do this. we have to be smart, we have to be prudent about it. we may have to take more time. you have to read the different levels. you have to be going through science with this. they're right, but maybe they're also wrong politically. how so? well, let's look at it through the lens of november, and let's

give this argument the best case it can have from a much more superior mind. former presidential candidate andrew yang. good to see you, brother. how's the family? >> it's doing well, chris. everybody is happy and healthy. i'm glad -- you feel like you're 100%, man. i felt for you going through the recovery period. >> i felt for me. so it's good to be back. thank you very much, andrew. have this conversation with me. here's my take. of course, you have to go through science. of course we have to be pragmatic, but, man, that sounds like you're holding me back politically. when the president says, reopen now, brother, any way we can. let's get after it, man. this is what it's all about. back to work, back to fun. who do you think they're going to vote for, me or you? >> we all want the same things, and if you look at the polling, chris, the vast majority of americans agree that we should

get back to work, but we need to do it in the right way. when you look at georgia and they say, hey, we're open for business, do you know what people didn't do? run out to bars and restaurants and think everything is 100% back to normal and safe. we're human beings. we're not just all going to say, like, the governor says we're open so everything is back. everybody is on the same page, frankly, as joe biden where we want to get things open, we want to get the economy going, but the only way to do that, really, is to get the virus under control. >> andrew, you guys sound like the party of no. i'm the party of yes. let's do it now. let the people figure out what they want to do, man. i don't want to think i have to lock myself in my house because i don't know how to live my life. people are starving. even the stipend you give to people won't be enough.

i'm not about buts. this is politics, andrew. aren't you guys a little worried that you're being put into a box by the president? >> i'm not worried because i've seen the polls, chris. the vast majority of americans are on the same page if you look at what they're concerned about. number one is health, and that makes sense. we're in a situation where our loved ones, you know, our vulnerable -- like, i haven't seen my mom in months, you know what i mean? that kind of thing. that's what americans are thinking about. so when you say, like, oh, this is a political winner for republicans, it's just not borne out by the polling. the polling supports joe biden and the democrats and most reasonable people, which is we want to get things open but we want to get things open according to the data, according to public health guidelines and in a way that balances life and death. >> but what's going on in this country right now? andrew, you learned this uniquely. one of the first things that drew me to you as a candidate

for my audience was your acronym, m.a.t.h. make america think harder. why? because what's at a premium right now? not thinking. feeling and acting. science is fake, it's all about agendas. we have to wait for them to tell us what to do. who is going to tell us, the deep state? the guys who say don't wear a mask, you don't need a mask, touch your face? now you need a mask or you're going to die? they don't know what they're talking about. that's what's going on in this country, andrew. you have it on right now on a pin on your lapel because we do not do critical thinking in this country, we do expedience and what is easy. easy is reopen. i don't want to listen to yang with his party of no, buts, and wait, wait, wait. i say do it now. >> one thing i will say, chris, we should never put out extreme scenarios where we know we can all stay indoors until the

vaccine arrives, like, 12 months from now. that's not realistic. so this is going to be a period of difficult choices and tradeoffs, and that's something that democrats are leading with, where we know it's not realistic to say everyone is going to be in your home for months on end. so then we have to start thinking about what the tradeoffs are, what are the precautions and measures we can take that will allow us to reopen places of business, to be able to go out to shops again, and that includes things that most americans are already adopting around social distancing and masks and cleaning and washing the hands. i mean, we're all doing it, really. >> that's the key. see, that's the key, andrew. you're saying it the right way. you guys need more yang in that gang. because you're saying reopen. i'm a businessman. i want to reopen. i want it now, yes. but like this. see, that's the key. because what's happening politically is you're letting trump get away because he's in power, right? you're letting him get away with

the onus of power just by saying he wants to reopen. he never has to answer how. and because you guys seem to be just saying, well, we can't just do it like that, he doesn't have to say how. whereas if you said, yeah, we want to reopen, too. we have a plan, do you? he doesn't have a plan. he's saying testing is not necessary. why? testing is hard. testing slows down your process of reopening. he doesn't like it. masks are bad. vaccines you probably don't need. it will disappear miraculously. i know it all sounds like b.s., but in politics, if it feels good, people go for it. you say polls. i say ask hillary clinton about the polls. they change fast and they go with the flow. people want to reopen. i never thought i would see what i've seen in wisconsin, andrew. i bet you and i would have thought, they'll never do it like that. look at wisconsin. >> you can go into a bar anywhere and people aren't adhering to social distance guidelines and whatnot, but most

americans take this very seriously, they're not rushing back out in droves, and it's going to be like that until we get testing, until we get better data. the fundamental question here really is the confidence that americans have to actually go out and feel like they and their family members are going to be safe. >> i think it's going to be about opportunity. i think we'll see it here in new york. look, wisconsin is a real lab right now about whether or not the polls will bear out or whether the opportunity will create the necessity of wanting to join in. we'll see when the beaches start to open and whether people respect the rules. but my feeling is, with human nature when you give people an ability to do something, they start to do it, and prudence and caution becomes less of the equation. but we'll see, and i think it's going to be huge in the election, andrew. that's why i pushed hard to get you on a friday night with little notice. so thank you for taking the call, andrew. it's good to have you tonight. i've missed you. >> no problem, but yeah, democrats are all about reopening.

we just want to reopen the right way that looks out for people and families. >> that's the right way to say it. it's about time i started hearing it from you people. who is you people? the democrats. have a good weekend. best to the family. >> you, too. thank you, chris. >> that's why i went to yang early on when he was one of a field of gazillion. i was like, what's that math about? talk about things that won't sell in politics. no, no, make america think harder. critical thinking, what works and what doesn't? don't play people for a sucker. don't hit people with tired solutions. i know the polls say we all want to do it the right way, but people want to reopen and they want as few restrictions as possible. you'll see it play out in the election. remember that. a lot of newly released video and new questions about the months leading up to the ahmaud arbery shooting death. it's not about what he did and whether that makes what they did okay. no, it isn't.

but if we go back to last autumn, we will see the development of an idea in the head of the accused, something that's so hard in the law to develop that they thought they knew this guy, and they may well have been wrong. arbery's mother and one of the family's attorneys are here tonight. they're looking for answers and so are we, next.

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all right, quick bit of business to go through from capitol hill. breaking news. the house just passed a $3 trillion coronavirus relief bill. manu raju joins us now. thank you, manu, for the quick work. what do we know about the vote? >> the bill passed by a 208-199 margin, a very close margin that came in the aftermath of an aggressive effort by nancy pelosi, the house speaker, to

lock down votes. there were a number of democrats particularly in the districts that the president carried that were concerned about this bill. ultimately 14 democrats broke ranks. they voted against this plan. one republican, pete king of new york, voted for it. they needed 204 votes for it to pass. it passed by a small margin. this comes on the heels of already the passage of several bills that total nearly $3 trillion already, which was mounted by one of the most aggressive efforts by washington ever during the coronavirus pandemic. the republicans were against this plan. they called it a wish list. they contended the price tag was too much, and right now republicans, including the white house, are saying there needs to be a pause for any additional relief measure. they are not committing to any other package to move forward, even as some republicans are

calling for an additional package for state and local money, particularly for governments that have been hit hard through this crisis. in this package, there will be $1 trillion alone for state and local governments, but now that this bill has passed the house and has no chance of moving forward, the question ultimately will be, what will congress agree to now, what is the next relief package? that will only intensify pressure particularly on republicans who so far don't want to move forward to make a decision about whether they should start to negotiate with democrats, but the democrats who voted against this, chris, argued that this was simply a messaging bill that they should have sat down and cut a deal first before moving forward on this. but nancy pelosi was able to convince enough of her colleagues that this was the right way to go to create the first step in presumably getting to that bipartisan outcome. one other significant move tonight, the house for the first time will now be able to vote

remotely. they passed a rules change that would allow the chamber to operate while members are away from the capitol so they could continue their business. it's the first time ever in history that the house will be allowed to do just that, and members are leaving now and they'll be gone for some time. i heard one democratic member say, see you in september. so the house will continue its work but now away from washington. chris? >> manu raju, thank you very much. we'll talk more about what the technological difference means. it's not as easy as saying, finally, you're catching up with the rest of us. you do things remotely. it means something a little different to not have lawmakers present and around each other in a process like this. but we'll get to that in time. what is important to remember about that vote, when you don't get something right the first time, it's hard to fix it, especially in d.c. they put all the responsibility for getting us reopen on the states. testing, tracing, how to do it, all the different regulations, and then they left the states alone. they didn't give them the money to deal with all the huge shortfalls they have.

so states are in pain and they have more responsibility than the federal government. that is a mistake and it's going to be tough to fix it. reminder, we're only at the beginning of the process in georgia. let's be honest, nothing happened for two months, and it seems for no or bad reason. we now have the mcmichaels attorneys continuing to push that their clients are being vilified. that we don't know the whole story. well, we don't. but we know a hell of a lot more than we did before we started looking. we've got numerous videos of unidentified people trespassing at the construction site that ahmaud visited on the day of his death. the arbery family attorneys can only confirm that he was there that day, february 23rd. the neighbor who actually took the video of his death maintains he doesn't know the mcmichaels. and, of course, the arbery family, which has been pushing for answers long before a video

was released, is still saying, we need to know why this happened. ahmaud's mother wanda cooper jones is with us tonight along with one of the family's attorneys, lee merritt. ma'am, i am sorry to meet you under these circumstances, but thank you for taking the opportunity to talk to us about your son and what you think of the developments. >> thank you. >> counselor, as always, appreciate your attendance. i'm going to talk to you, but feel free to weigh in as you feel warranted. ma'am, what do you make of all of these videos that are coming out about who went in and out of this house and what they might mean? what do they mean to you? >> actually, i didn't take a look at the videos. i'm actually kind of afraid to take a look at the videos. from what i can see from the videos, it doesn't look like my son at all, especially on the 11th. >> do you care, does it matter whether he was in that house or

who has been in the house or how many times? what do you think of that entire group of speculation? >> that's not really important at this point. what i'm basically focusing on is what happened in the street on the 23rd of february and when he was killed. about your son. in terms of what you understood. young man. 25 years old. about his character, in terms of how he was in confrontation. how was ahmaud when people pushed up on him the wrong way? >> well, actually, the way that i raised ahmaud, if he was confronted, any kind of way that he could avoid it, to really avoid it. but if he was placed in a position where he had to defend himself, i did teach him he had to defend himself. >> now. lee, you know why i'm asking

because the only argument i'm seeing -- we heard defense counsel say something very odd, which is they're going to put on evidence. they have no burden to put on evidence but they are saying they're going to put on evidence. the only evidence they can put on is justification. justification means self-defense, for everybody watching right now. and, lee, what do you want people to know about what you've learned about ahmaud? and what that situation was like, from his perspective, that people should remember when they're looking at the videotape and they have the idea that these guys had to do what they did? >> well, what we now know from the homeowner, who's released several surveillance videos from his property, that was under construction, was that several people, on a regular basis, stopped by this property. daytime. nighttime. without permission. and none of those people were vilified. none of them were criminalized. only, the young, black man that they -- that they -- that we -- that they, eventually, caught up with on february 23rd, was

criminalized. a and, certainly, he was the only one who was murdered. now, we also learned, within the hour, that there was a text message, early on, from law enforcement to residents of the scintilla shores community saying, if you have a trespasser and you want it dealt with quickly, call gregory mcmichael. that was months prior to ahmaud's murder. and so you have that entire community being deputized. and the claim that brian made earlier that he didn't know mcmichaels, that claim is starting to be eroded now. >> now, hold on a second. i don't know anything about this. by the way, let me just -- let me just clear. this is from the atlanta journal constitution. first of all, ms. cooper-jones, i'm sorry that you have to be exposed to this talk about what's going on in the case. anything that you want to say to people, you are obviously free to say. but i want to learn as much as

we can, to help people understand this context. and if it gets too much for you, you jest lust let me know. i'll end the interview and just done with counsel. but as long as you're good. lee, i don't know anything about this. i know the ajc has it. i don't have it in my own reporting but, as we both know, you can't send a text and deputize a whole community. but what do you understand about this text? and who it went to? i mean, you can't text a whole community. like, what do you know about this? >> so the text went directly to the homeowner of the construction site, mr. english. >> oh, okay. >> and so that's who it went to. but, in response to that text message, the neighbors got ahold of him and essentially their behavior from that point forward was law enforcement told us we can deal with this as long as we use gregory mcmichael. so it's not a coincidence that

gregory mcmichael and his son are seen on video murdering ahmaud arbery. >> mcmichael was no longer a cop. was retired. and there is some speculation about how things went for him during the end of his tour. but, still, based on what we see in these videos, lee merit, do you believe that the mcmichaels thought they knew who ahmaud was from the videos? and that, that is why they flew out of their house after him, on february 23rd, when he was just jogging by. >> i think they knew that he was on the property that day. and that they knew that a black male was on the property before, and they probably suspected that it was him. and that, because of what law enforcement told them, they have the authority to try to arrest him. i think that -- that -- that they had that belief, although that is contrary to the law. >> do we know anything about the police telling greg mcmichael

and/or his son that they were, in any way, empowered to do anything, in terms of local policing? >> no, only by inference. so the text message to the homeowner says, contact gregory mcmichael. here's his address and a cell phone, if you have action on that videotape. >> what does it mean to you that it seems like one of the people on the tape that may or may not be ahmaud. again, i don't think it's relevant for the legal analysis. but just in terms of what was in the head of the accused which, again, is a rare gift. i mean, usually, you don't know what they were thinking. here, it seems like we got a pretty good idea what they were thinking. the guy was there to get water. what does that mean to you in the -- in the clouds of speculation that we're seeing? >> sure. well, the homeowner has -- he knows the layout of that entire property. he knows that ahmaud tends to move where the faucet was. that he never damaged anything. that he never took anything. that he never did anything illegal on the premises, other

than -- although i don't know any trespassing signs were posted. we don't know ahmaud could have been doing anything which warrants a citizens arrest. >> i know that you are haunted by this, ms. cooper-jones. and i can't imagine being counsel to your head and heart during a time like this. but the more you learn about what went into this situation, and what was waiting for your son that day, how do you feel about it? >> it makes me very angry. that, you know, my son's life was -- was -- his life was taken so senselessly. and they didn't respect his. they didn't respect his life, at all. i mean, he was just a nobody to them. >> how confident are you that your son was there on a jog? >> very confident.

>> and the idea that, well, he wasn't dressed for jogging. he had cargo pants on. what does that mean to you? >> he -- regardless of what he was wearing, my son was out on a jog. >> and you'd seen him jog in lots of different outfits? >> that is correct, sir. >> and him jogging that distance from home. was that unusual? >> not unusual at all. >> had he ever said anything to you about getting water at a particular house? or that anybody was looking at him funny in that neighborhood? or anything like that? did he have any concerns? >> no, he never shared any concerns. that's why i know that he was -- i mean, his death was totally -- he was caught off guard. i mean, he had no clue that he was in danger. >> do you think that ahmaud, if he knew that people were trying to get him, that he would have continued running down the middle of the street? >> no, sir. >> what do you think he would've

done, knowing your son? >> he would've stayed away. >> he would've made a break for it. tried to get away from the cars. >> exactly. >> hey, lee merit, you said something i wanted to pick up with you on. william roddy bryant. he is mentioned in the police report by the accused, by one of the mcmichaels, who said roddy tried to head him off. roddy says, through his attorney, not me, not me. i didn't do that. you said something to me about what you thought his knowledge of this situation was. what have you developed as an understanding on what basis? >> well, really just sitting watching what's tantamount to a deposition on your show, i listened to his attorneys say that he was sitting home, minding his own business, minutes before the murder. and, then, within minutes, he was in his truck, holding a camera, recording ahmaud being ambushed. that had to be -- by inference, that had to be coordinated. there's no way he went from minding his business on his couch, to, minutes later,

filming ahmaud's murder. >> why hasn't he been charged? >> i think that there needs to be some substantiation of what's being said. i think the mcmichaels have finally closed their mouths. i think as additional evidence comes out, particularly this evidence that -- i think we're going to find that these numbers have been talking. that they've been sharing information. and -- and that additional evidence will come forward that there was coordination, between several members of the community. and i expect arrests going forward. >> you know what? there is more i want to talk to you about, lee. because you got some stuff. we'll follow up with the agc and see if we can get reporting. but you know what? i can't do it to ms. cooper jones. if this were my family, i've heard enough tonight. lee merit, i'll get in touch with you and circle back about what you understand and the basis and what you think of the videotapes. wanda cooper-jones, i'm very sorry that the loss of your son has provoked all this. the only thing i can say to you is at least take some solace in the fact that you have a lot of people pushing for answers, to

make sure that there is no miscarriage of justice here this time. that people know what happened, they know why it happened. it's the most complete investigation. it's the most complete public record that we can put together. and that we will not ignore this story again. i hope that means something to you, as you're trying to heal with your family. >> yes. thank you so much. >> thank you so much. and if you need anything, we are a call away. all right? to you both, god bless. and try to enjoy the weekend, if you can at all. >> thanks, chris. >> thank you. >> all right. i mean, you know, like, enough. the -- the mom's had enough. there are questions to do legal analysis and i got another segment coming up right now with laura coates. so we'll take up some of these questions for her. we don't have that agc reporting about the text message. but, assuming it's something, what would it mean? what would it not mean? what does it inform? someone who's done these cases, former federal prosecutor, laura coates, next.

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so, it turns out a lot of people walked into that construction site, which is pretty typical of a construction site, right? now, the young, african-american males that show up in the videos. are they ahmaud arbery, or not? family says they don't know. and i don't either. the question is, why would it even matter? let's take this to a top legal mind, former federal prosecutor laura coates. now, we know why it matters for the accused. because they, clearly, thought they knew something about ahmaud arbery, and put him in every one of these locations. and, obviously, had a thing about him. but, in terms of whether it is him or not, in terms of if there's any basis of making what they did okay, is there anything there? >> no. i mean, think about this, chris. when you want to have a comprehensive and holistic investigation, you want to think about the full timeline. you want to know what

transpired. you want to know if there was any indication to substantiate the claims by travis mcmichael and his father about a rash of burglaries to get their state of mind. that is important for a self-defense claim and any prudent prosecutor to try to anticipate what arguments are being made. however, the timeline is far too expansive in this respect. when it comes to analyzing this case. we are talking about the relevant inquiry that a prosecutor will look at. it's whether there was a justified killing of an unarmed person by a -- not a local law enforcement officer. not anybody deputized. but an everyday citizen, executing a citizens arrest. and, for that reason, for all intents and purposes, santa claus could have walked through that construction site. unless it had some relevance as to the actual altercation, between the two individuals, it really has no basis. and, frankly, i look at all this as part of a distraction and a concerted effort to try to say, hmm, he must have been up to something. this -- this excuses the

behavior. but this is precisely why, chris, whenever there are questions about people, whether there is suspicion, reasonable or not, you call 911. >> right. i'm asking, exactly, that question. just not about arbery. i think the mcmichaels were up to something. i think they heard about him. i think there was some kind of community chat board because they were saying we've had a lot of break-ins. no, you didn't. no, you didn't. there are no police reports of burglaries. somebody -- they reported that somebody broke into their vehicle and took their -- took their gun. that's what they say. but there are no string of burglaries in that area. but they thought there was. either, they're saying it or not. but for them to fly out of the house on the 23rd, i don't believe they knew that arbery was in the house on the 23rd. how would they have known, just moments before, unless one of these neighbors told them and they just haven't come forward and owned it up yet. but if they didn't know he was in the house that day and they saw him and went after him the way they did with the zeal they did, they were up to something. >> and by zeal, you're talking

about armed. they have shotguns. >> and passion to stop him. to get him to stop. you know, try to corner him. >> and that's the part about it. it's the hunt. it's the chase. and it's also the idea of feeling they were entitled to do so. and, yes, again, there is law in georgia that says you can make a citizens arrest. but there is criteria that needs to be there. and one of the elements is not whether you used to be in law enforcement. it'd be if somebody who is a retired n retired neuro surgeon said, you know what, i once performed brain surgeries, let me go back and you should welcome me in the hospital again. and that criteria is you had to actually observe a crime or have immediate knowledge of it. knowing about or believing you know about previous incidents of a break in through a construction site is, neither, immediate knowledge, nor,

firsthand, immediate observation. >> and not a felony. >> and not a felony. speaking of felonies, chris, if you are talking about property, which we really are here. perhaps ahmaud arbery before the 23rd but ahmaud arbery, according to his attorney on the 23rd. if we are talking about him going into a property that did not belong to him, then the person i'm most concerned about, and whose rights i'm most concerned about is larry english. larry english was two hours away, according to your own interview with him and his attorney. so because of that reason, we're talking about mcmichaels engaging in defense of property. and, to do that with force, it had to be your property, your immediate family member's property. you had to have the actual duty to protect it. or they had to have committed a forcible felony. that's not walking around an empty site. >> right. and you know who would know that? former cop. who is, you know, on the scene, right? now, let me just check something real fast. vaughn, can i use this other 911 call that we have? or no? all right. let me play this other 911 call

that we have, that we got clearance for, because it's a very different perspective than what we've heard, so far. >> hello? >> 911. what's the address of your emergency? >> i'm out here scintilla shores. there's a black male running down the street. >> where -- where -- where at scintilla shores? >> i don't know what street we're on. >> sir. hello? sir? sir, where are you at? hello? hello? >> now, travis is the name that we believe he says in there. so who would've done that, in a moment of, in the law, as we learn it, infilgrante de licto.

now, when you hear that comment, damn it, stop, travis. what's your immediate thought? >> yeah. >> well, my immediate thought is, one, if we're confirming, in fact, that that was gregory mcmichael who made that telephone call. my thought, number one, was he saying to stop to ahmaud arbery who was running? was he talking to the actual person he was trying to get to stop? or was he telling travis mcmichael not to engage in lethal force? and if those three -- we have to figure out what those things are. i'm always curious when people have different lawyers and wondering what their defense is going to be, when they do not have a joint self-defense claim there, i wonder if they will try to delineate that. and so, my immediate concern is, well -- the question he said was -- what he said to the officer was, there's a black man running down the street. i know of no code, of any state in this country, where that constitutes a misdemeanor, let alone a forcible felony that requires the use of lethal force.

>> i tell you what. a lot of jokes going around online. african-americans making jokes. i know who it's not funny too. laura coates. you worry about this. and it's no joke to us. we'll keep following this, every step along the way to justice. have a great weekend, my friend. thank you for making us better. >> thank you for watching. stay tuned. the news continues, here, on cnn.

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and welcome to our viewers here, in the united states, and all around the world. i'm michael holmes. this is cnn "newsroom." now, on a day when more than 1,600 americans died because of coronavirus, president donald trump, both, touted and downplayed development of a vaccine. mr. trump, in a rose garden ceremony, unveiling an ambitious effort to have a coronavirus vaccine by the end of the year. and, even if that goal isn't met, he proclaimed, in his words, vaccine or no vacci