may all the veterans we have lost rest in peace, and may their memories be a blessing. i'm wolf blitzer. thanks very much for watching. anderson cooper starts right now. >> good evening. this memorial day was in many ways a study in contrasts. perhaps more than ever because in today's traditional memorial day mix of official remembrance for those who died serving this country in the armed forces and parties marking the unofficial start of summer, there were contrasts within contrasts as the coronavirus death toll approaches 100,000 americans killed. the president today at arlington national cemetery, the man running against him former vice president joe biden at a veterans memorial in delaware. one wearing a mask, one not. contrasting signals or perhaps contrasting priorities. as for the vietnam memorial with the names of 58,000 service members killed over the 19 years of that conflict, two contrasting traditions. remembering the dead, but

preserving life. a virtual ceremony was held online so that those who survived the war might also survive this. contrasting science as well in how the commander in chief chose to conduct himself in this moment as a self-described war-time president. today at fort mchenry in maryland reading prepared remarks he sounded like any other president on any other memorial day. >> as one nation we mourn alongside every single family that has lost loved ones, including the families of our great veterans. together we will vanquish the virus and america will rise from this crisis to new and even greater heights. >> well, that was at 5 past 12:00 in maryland. at 2:23 in twitter, the president called congressman and lam an american fraud. over the weekend in tweets and retweets he mocked the looks of the weight of three prominent women, other remarks that don't

bear repeating. he continued to push the baseless conspiracy theory about someone who worked for joe scarborough and he played golf, the same thing he attacked president obama for during the ebola outbreak. he clearly now sees the virus as a state for itself. the latest plan attesting continues to largely put the burden on individual states. experts say voicing doubts, the executive director of the association of public health laboratories telling "the new york times" when it comes to obtaining the supplies needed to do that testing, which has been a huge problem already as you know, said, quote, you can't leave it up to the states to do it for themselves. this is not the hunger games. let's hope not. then again, the president, as you know, has already weighed in quite clearly on the subject, setting the tone as far back as march 13th. >> dr. fauci said this week the lag in testing was, in fact, a failing. do you take responsibility for that? and when can you guarantee that

every single american who needs a test will be able to have a test? what's the date of ha? >> no, i don't take responsibility at all because we were given a set of circumstances and we were given rules, regulations and specifications from a different time and we're now in very, very strong shape. >> keeping him honest back when he said that, it was hard to figure out whether he was merely ducking accountability in retrospect or also going forward. today the answer seems clear. the president is leaving responsibility to the states while also tweeting the credit for any success belongs to him. meantime, he's not telling the truth about conditions in those states. tweeting yesterday, quote, cases, numbers and deaths are going down all over the country. well, in fact, sadly according to the data from johns hopkins university, new cases are going down in just ten states. the they're rising in 18 and holding steady in 22. in other words, in 40 out of 50 states, coronavirus infections are not declining. now, it would be good to report

tonight that they are, but that sadly is not so. new deaths are declining slightly. the blue dotted line there is the five-day moving average. however, because weekend numbers tend to be under report and had upward corrected later, this is a three-day weekend, it's hard to draw any conclusions much less definitive ones as the president has. you won't hear this president or his administration reminding those states where cases are rising that under the cdc guidelines, and the guidelines that the president and the coronavirus task force once backed, that was just a couple weeks ago, they shouldn't be reopening. he's doing the opposite, though. in fact, teeting this morning, quote, transition to greatness, get ready, it is already happening. that's the language against what every health official says including ones on his own task force is creating the final holiday contrast. side by side, two different americas this holiday weekend when it comes to the coronavirus. in one you see empty beaches, people keeping their distance wearing masks, being cautious. in the other, even in states where cases are not dropping, there are people packed together

throwing caution and perhaps viral particles to the wind. and in the middle of all this the president has been threatening to move the august republican convention out of charlotte, north carolina, if the state's governor does not in the president's words, quote, guarantee we will be allowed full attendance in the arena. talking about thousands of people from all 50 states packed into the arena in the middle of a pandemic. for more now on the state of the country this memorial day, we're joined by cnn chief political analyst gloria borger. and an epidemiologist and infectious disease specialist host of podcast simply epidemic. what do you think of doubling down on the sporesponsibility o testing on the states? do you think this will turn into the hunger games scenario of states competing for resource ands supplies yet again? >> anderson, i think the federal strategy is no strategy and abdication of responsibility to the states. we've already seen a hunger games, lord of the flies kind of

scenario previously involving ventilators and other personal protective equipment. and i think we're going to see this continue. you know, i think there just needs to be more leadership and more role modelling from the federal level which we're just not getting right now. >> gloria, given all we saw and heard from the president this weekend, i wonder what message he's sending to the americans about the virus and where we stand in the fight against it, because it is this strange double speak. he talked about, you know, others playing both sides, whatever that meant. but he seems to be making both sides of the argument. on the one hand through his coronavirus task force, they put out these guidelines about how states should reopen, but then he's undercutting it immediately and continually, and that seems to be where his focus is now. >> well, he's undercutting it, and then not paying attention to it, and then when he orders states who have reservations about churches opening to reopen saying i'm going to override

you, which by the way he has no power to do, the message is things are normal. everything is back to normal. i'm out here playing golf. i'm not wearing a mask. never mind the warnings from dr. hahn at the fda or dr. birx that everybody has to be careful now, really careful about the way we reopen and the way we behave on this holiday weekend. the president's message was i'm in charge. things are great. things are back to normal. the economy is going to get popping pretty soon, so not to worry, we have it all under control. which gives people, i think, a certain permission to say, well, if he's not wearing a mask, i don't have to wear a mask. if he's out there playing golf not wearing a mask, not worrying about the pandemic, well, okay, fine. that's good enough by me. and that is a mixed message, anderson. >> doctor, what about the testing sanders laid out in the report that testing 300,000 people a day focused on those

likely to have the virus is sufficient for containment? does that make sense to you? i remember bill gates being on our town hall a couple weeks ago talking about the 200,000 tests a day figure that the administration was using, and he essentially said that's a phony number because it takes days for many of those tests to get results. and by that point the person very possibly has interacted with any number of people and potentially spread the virus. so what is the point of that, that, that old test? >> that number is nowhere near enough. it's just a pretty quick math. if you say you want to test everybody who comes into the hospital, which is what we're doing right now, call a rule-out when you come to the hospital to make sure you don't have covid, that's already about 100,000 tests a day. then you talk about testing everybody in the nursing home, both the residents and the staff maybe twice a month, so every incubation period. so that's another 150,000 tests a day. and then you have people working in meatpacking plants, people who are front-line workers,

doctors, nurses, emts, not to mention people who have symptoms and people who have been exposed. so those numbers are more like a million tests a day, anderson. >> a million tests a day, but i mean, is that a realistic number that one can actually do and get results in a timely manner? >> well, i think with the event of what are called antigen tests, this is the third kind of te test that's come out for the proteins of the virus. this is a much quicker, simpler, cheaper test that does promise to help us scale this up. it's not as sensitive as the pcr test which were the first tests to come out, the test for the genetic material. but if you're talking about repeat testing people on a fairly frequent basis, you know, once a month, twieflsce a month depending on the setting, that probably is sufficient. but we need to be scaling up that capacity dramatically right now. >> gloria, it does seem -- it's an awful thing to think about, but it does seem like there is

such a clear obvious political calculation by this white house, by this president on battling this virus. i mean, it seems like it is being seen through political terms. obviously just his focus on churches reopening. i mean, you know, he has not had a track record throughout his life of being a big attender of churches and, you know, obviously everybody wants religious institutions to be able to open and function and people be able to express their faith and gather together. but it's the idea that, you know, he is the person pushing this when it's really not up to him. it's just one of the more obvious political kind of considerations he's making. >> sure. sure it is, anderson, throughout all of this we've seen the president who wants to take responsibility when it's good for him, such as saying i think churches need to reopen. this is very important.

he said churches are essential and he wants that to reopen. when it comes to taking responsibility for testing as we were just talking about, for getting enough swabs for testing, from the beginning of this, getting enough p.p.e., et cetera, he's like, well, that's up to the states. it's up to the states. and so in terms of reopening, if the states do it well, he'll take some credit for that. but the governors are the ones there left saying, wait a minute, it is as you used the phrase before, the hunger games. it is the hunger games because we have to compete against each other. and why didn't you use the defense production act from day one to help us? so we didn't have to compete? new york doesn't have to compete against oklahoma or what other state or so the governor of maryland didn't have to go to south korea to get what he wanted. so it is the president who says, wait a minute, your responsibility when it could fail, but my responsibility when he's giving the political

message, which is i'm a cheerleader. things are going to get better. things are great. here i am out on the golf course. i personally don't want to wear a mask. it's a personal decision, so, you know, that's up to you. so it is clearly political for this president who, by the way, was tweeting "liberate states" with democratic governors who were worried about reopening too quickly. if that isn't political, i don't know what is. >> dr. gander, when you see the states reopen, there's several states that have reopened that have not seen an uptick in cases which people look at and say, look, that state, there hasn't been. obviously we're looking at the numbers, cases rising, 18 states falling in ten, holding steady in 22 states. what do you say to people who say, look, the economic damage being done is worse than the medical issues?

>> well, i think one issue that has not been clearly communicated to the american public, anderson, is why testing is so important here. so it's actually twofold. it's both for public health and for the economy. so from a public health perspective, we want to know who is infected right now, and we want to separate them. we want to isolate them and offer them treatment. we want to separate them from people who are not infected so we can break chains of transmission. so we don't have ongoing transmission. secondly, if you think about it, do you want to go get your haircut or see your dentist when your dentist or your hairdresser might have covid? where if we had more regular testing of everybody, something that the former chief economist of the world bank has proposed, the idea that i would see my dentist and i know he's been tested in the past two weeks, that would make me feel a lot more confident about going out in public. so testing is really key to protecting the public's health and the economy. >> there's a picture from the ozarks we're showing there. gloria, dr. gander, thank you so much. the next guest silicon valley

executive writing extensively and influencially about the pandemic. his reading has been essential for me and many others. he can be seen on youtube and how tightly countries have locked themselves down, how well they've done in slowing their outbreaks. he's tomas. great to see you. you describe a hammer and a dance. what happens if some states continue to observe strict guidelines or at least stricter compared to what other states are doing, which is the hammer, while the others start what you call the dance as we saw this weekend, a lot of dancing has begun? >> that only works if travelers going into the state that is doing all the right measures can be quarantined. so alaska, hawaii, for example, have been doing that, and enforcing it. everybody that goes into these states are -- get into a two-week quarantine. many other states have rules like this, but they're not

enforcing it. a state like california that has been aggressive on the hammer and wants to dance, but is getting a lot of people from outside and they're not being quarantined, then all of these efforts have been worthless. >> how do you see big picture what's happening right now in the united states? >> we are seeing one of the only places in the world where the highest level of sovereignty decided not to use its power. that hasn't happened in nearly every other country in the world. as a result as we were saying, the states are left to fend for themselves, but they don't have all the power so that other countries have. one of the key ones that other countries have is the one of closing their borders. can a and so this is something there is precedence for. some states don't care as much as others. i think the states that really care about should consider that, especially just quarantining all the travelers that are coming into their states. >> is that even possible? i mean, for a state like new york or, you know, i don't know,

for any state. is it really possible to close their borders and quarantine anybody who comes in? >> it is possible. snats ha some states have it easier than others. california, their neighbors have few cases. california is really easy. hawaii and alaska, they might want to quarantine people coming from airports. obviously for states like new york, it's harder. but we've done this in europe. germany, for example, czechoslovakia, all these countries are very interconnected. they have a lot of people coming back and forth in the states and they close the borders. >> part of the reason for locking down was to give the health care system sort of time to space out the cases and not be overwhelmed and not collapse. has that actually worked? so moving forward we're seeing all these places reopening.

if there is a huge -- a ground swell now of cases, what happens? >> yeah, so, there are really two goals, right. one is to prevent them from happening in the future. i think we're in a better position now because at least we're alert. we're testing much more. there is a massive -- we can see that coming. we are in a better position in that regard. the problem we have is that going for that strategy, which is mitigation, might end up with what we call herd immunity. it means that we don't go for a lot of people being infected all the time, but over time they accumulate and accumulate and accumulate. by the time 65% of the population has been infected, you have in a country like u.s. a million to 2 million people dead. so that is the issue that states like california, like hawaii, like idaho, like alaska want to avoid if we can crush the curve and really get the cases to a

minimum until we have a vaccine or treatment, we can reopen the economy safely and without all the death and sickness burden. >> if there is -- i mean, if the vaccine takes longer than people think, herd immunity, how long would it take to get herd immunity and -- yeah. >> yeah, no, i think the best country that has explored this is sweden. sweden said, we're going to be cautious, but we're not going to close a lot of places and schools. they asked people to stay home. what they said in the beginning was there is no way to stop this. and by may, around 25 to 50% of our population will have had this anyway. it turns out they did a test of antibodies, the ones we were talking about before around the beginning of may. they were expecting 25, 50% of the people infected. they found 7%.

so that means they are ten times -- they need to multiply by ten the number of infected to get to herd immunity. it's not going to be fast. it's going to take a long time. and during that time people are scared to go out. they don't want to consume and the economy is penalized instead of taking the hit early on aggressively and then once the cases are controlled, opening up much more -- with much more confidence. >> obviously the death toll in sweden is more than any of the neighboring states around it. you've already written about -- >> that's right. >> -- seeding and spreading. can you explain what you mean by that? >> yeah. so, the two keys there, right, is you don't want first -- if you're doing a dance, you're controlling the cases in your state. first you don't want people to come into the state and seed new cases. after that you don't want them to spread into the state. so there are some rules that you can follow to do that. like, for example, for travelers, if you quarantine them for two weeks, all of them,

then suddenly your seeding is much lighter. and then the spreading, we now have good understanding of what works and what doesn't. for example, you were talking about churches. it's really not that minor. it's not that churches open or close. the issue with churches is a lot of the spread of the coronavirus is perfect for churches. it spreads really well in places that are contained. a lot of people are together for a long amount of time, singing, talking and touching, right? that's why there's been so many outbreaks in churches. the solution should not be open or close. in fact, it's not. a lot of churches are open remotely. there are many other ways we can do to open them safely. for example, we can be doing this outdoors. we could be wearing masks. we could be making sure everybody keeps 6 feet apart. these measures would dramatically reduce the containment in churches, but these rules of thumb are also valued for all the economy.

we can use the insides, change the economy, change how businesses are set up so we can reopen the economy more safely. >> tomas, i appreciate all you're doing and writing about. thank you very much. breaking news now from the white house in the wake of new numbers out from brazil. more than 800 fatalities just in the last 24 hours according to the government of brazil. nearly 12,000 new cases, second only to the u.s., jeremy diamond is at the white house for us. jeremy, the administration is now moving up their travel restrictions on brazil. >> reporter: that's right, anderson. just yesterday the president had announced these travel restrictions barring most foreign nationals who had been to brazil in the last two weeks from entering the united states. that was supposed to go into effect on thursday at the end of the day. instead they are now moving that date up to tomorrow at the end of the day tomorrow. this, of course, comes, anderson, as there has been an explosion of indicaticases of coronavirus in brazil. they have the second most cases in the world. we should note president trump has floated these possible

restrictions last week. but prior to that, anderson, he had repeatedly praised the brazilian president bolsonaro for his handling of the coronavirus pandemic. despite the fact that bolsonaro has been one of those leaders who has repeatedly down played the threat of this virus and really pooh poohed the notion of the lockdowns and focused more on the economic impact than the health impact on the country. nonetheless, this seems to indicate, anderson, a growing concern at the white house about this. we should note cdc director robert redfield a couple weeks ago said if there is indeed a second wave of the virus or second peak of the virus in the fall and the winter in the united states, that it likely will be triggered at least by growing cases in the southern hemisphere. this is certainly part of the concern at the white house and among the coronavirus task force. in the white house, we should note, anderson, has left oklahoma topen the possible of travel restrictions.

>> jeremy diamond at the white house. the mayor of montgomery, alabama, says his hospitals are at a crisis level. later both hope and doubt in the search for a vaccine. human trials in the race for vaccine. a team of researchers say there is a 50% chance they get no result at all. we'll be right back.

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we've been talking tonight about the president's celebration this weekend in a turning point in his push to what he calls a transition to greatness, meaning a resurgence of the economy. looking at the numbers in states such as alabama experts worry about a transition to something worse. that red line is the moving average of new cases in the state. it's moving there in the wrong direction. in a moment we'll be joined by the mayor of montgomery, alabama. first our gary tuchman reporting from the gulf shores. >> reporter: coronavirus cases in alabama are going the wrong way. they are trending up. but the state is now wide open for business. social distancing is the state's rule, but that effort has often been an exercise in futility at restaurants and bars in the beach towns of alabama this memorial day weekend. as people come back to party. at this restaurant and bar in gulf shores, alabama, many wonder why it took this long to open. >> i'm just here just to have

fun and meet everybody and be cool, you know. >> reporter: across the street the beach is jammed. groups are supposed to be 6 feet away from each other. police work to enforce that. the groups are all supported to of people who live in the same household. there is no active effort to enforce that. she is 21. she just graduated from college. >> i mean, everybody's got to go somehow, you know what i mean? >> reporter: you mean die? >> yeah. but in a way, i don't want to die, but i mean, if that's what god has in store for my life, then that's okay. >> my family has the same mind-set as me, and we kind of just agreed if we get it we get it. we're going to handle it as a family and just get over it because that's what a family does. >> reporter: when it comes to coronavirus, medical experts will tell you they're very concerned about the immediate future here in alabama. on this beach, though, your eyes and ears will tell you something much different. >> just like the flu, right? >> reporter: it's not just like the flu. it's far more contagious.

and far more deadly. >> people die from the flu also. >> reporter: they do. >> to me that's the way i look at it. >> reporter: do you have any concerns being at the beach with so many people? >> no, no i don't. how come you're not worried at all somebody can be sick and walk by and get you sick? >> if there's enough wind and air it's going to clear it all out of here. >> reporter: the wind and air don't cliear it away. there's wind and air everywhere in this world. >> no, i'm not worried about it at all. >> reporter: and then there is the issue of masks. we saw a grand total of zero being worn on the beach. do you ever wear a mask? >> my wife and kids do. i don't. >> reporter: how come you don't sfl >> i feel comfortable i'm going to be okay. >> reporter: but the mask isn't to keep you okay, it's to keep your wife and kids okay, to protect them. >> i get t i get it. the survival rate is so high i think -- >> reporter: you're not worried about them getting sick? >> we're all going to get sick from something eventually. >> reporter: president trump is part of this conversation.

>> i mean if he's not wearing a mask i'm not going to wear a mask. if he's not worried, i'm not worried. >> reporter: the president? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: speaking of masks, alabama has mandated them for restaurant and bar workers. some restaurants have them, but at others we arrived unannounced and shot cell phone video. employees were not wearing masks. the manager here telling us after our visit he has now given masks to his employees with instructions to wear them. at this other restaurant and bar where we saw mae ease not wearing masks, the manager said they will continue not wearing them because they want it that way despite it violating the state order. traffic very heavy in alabama's beach towns. all nearby hotels sold out as the holiday weekend began. alabama is back in business. covid surge or not. >> when it's my time to go it's just my time to go, i guess. >> gary joins us now. so who enforces violations of the state reopening orders? >> reporter: anderson, the police departments throughout

the state of alabama have that right to make those kind of arrests. i talked just a short time ago with the police department here in gulf shores. they said they made no arrests over this memorial day weekend. i talked to one police officer on the beat. he said they've issued several warnings. at this time it's not the most pleasant thing to make these kind of arrests, but you don't have to be smooth to find these restaurants with waiters and bartenders without masks. in fact, i got my lunch at a place like that earlier today. >> gary, thank you. stay safe. steven reed is the governor of alabama. thank you so much for being with us. you said alabama is easing restrictions, has given people a false sense of security. i guess when you see the beaches of alabama crowded with people, you know, no social distancing, not wearing masks, are you concerned? >> absolutely. it gives me pause to think about what we may see in the next week or two when people get back to their communities from vacationing down in the gulf

coast. it's problematic that people believe this pandemic -- it's problematic for me people are cavalier about their behavior. it's problematic to me that we have not done a better job at the state and national level of explaining the seriousness of this virus to not only the people directly, but also to their friends, their family, and certainly our first responders and medical personnel who are also participating in this. >> it's difficult for -- i mean, any public official, you know, obviously you want your community to economically be thriving and you want the people in your community to be safe and healthy. there are an awful lot of people who are just, you know, tired of lockdowns or being at home and see the president not wearing a mask and just think, you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. how do you -- what do you say to that? >> well, what we're trying to do in montgomery is to make sure

people understand we have not won this battle yet. we want people to stay at home. we want them to wear masks when out in public. we've been strongly encouraging that now for a couple of months. we are also asking them to adhere to the cdc guidelines on social distancing. but we also understand that people are seeing stories of recovery. we're working with our small business community to make sure they get back up and going. we have a fund together, recover together fund here in this community to help our small business owners. but we don't want to do that at the expense of the health of the community. we have to continue taking these precautions and we're trying to over communicate, not only with business leaders, but our faith leaders as well as our hospital administrators who have told me that this is a crisis. this is something they have not seen in decades in this region. they are very concerned, not only for the community, but also the staff. so, you know, they have mostly

physically spent staff now. that has a domino effect, not only montgomery, but throughout the region. we have to continue to sound the alarm where that's concerned. >> in montgomery, how do you -- do you have power to, you know, enforce -- i mean, who is in charge of enforcing the mandates from the governor? is it city by city? is it up to the local officials? >> by and large it's city by city, county by county, except for maybe two counties out of 67 in the state. we have to adhere when the governor lifted the shelter-in-place order. that really made a big impact. i think be that gave people a false sense of security of where we stood in this battle against the pandemic. so we're continuing to try to explain to people where we are right now and what we're doing is we're trying to partner with our community leaders. we're trying to partner with

people, social media influencers to let everyone know where we stand and we still have a little bit of ways to go to beat this virus. we're just not there yet, and we have to get people to understand that, or we're going to have a second wave that's going to cost us much more than it already has. >> i know you've been very vocal about the lack of i.c.u. beds, intensive care unit beds in montgomery. at one point you were down to one i.c.u. bed left. where do you stand with that now? how are your hospitals? >> we've seen marginal improvement. we have probably 7% of i.c.u. beds. the hospitals believe that this is manageable, but it's not sustainable. and that's what they're sharing with me. they are concerned about p.p.e.s. they are concerned about their beds. they are concerned about i.c.u.s as well as just the overall resources that are dwindling. so we aren't at the cliff yet, but we can see it. and so we're just trying to make sure people understand, we want to slow things down before we get too close. >> mayor steven reed.

i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. wish you the best. >> always a pleasure. >> up next breaking news on a potential coronavirus vaccine in the works. the news comes as a group of researchers at oxford university say the declining rates of infection may hinder the ability of scientists everywhere to successfully develop a vaccine. we'll explain that ahead. some companies still have hr stuck between employees and their data. entering data. changing data. more and more sensitive, personal data. and it doesn't just drag hr down. it drags the entire business down -- with inefficiency, errors and waste.

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to start watching today. this breaking news report on the race for a vaccine, the 10th company has entered the testing trial of the human process. novavax says it expects preliminary safety results by july. we have a different team in the united kingdom is advising caution when it comes to

vaccines. researchers at oxford university are past the small testing phase. they are now trying to test thousands and they say they face a hurdle that may at first sound like a positive, a decline in infection rate. they told a british paper this weekend it is more difficult to test a vaccine with fewer people getting sick. quote, there is a 50% chance that we get no result at all. for more on the hunt for the vaccine i'm joined by senior medical analyst and director of the division of medical ethics at nyu langone medical center and ian, a trial for vaccine being developed by the company moderna. art, when you hear oxford's coronavirus vaccine trial is a 50% chance of showing no results at all, this after the amount of time and money put behind it, is that a setback? how do you see this? >> it's a big setback, anderson, but it's predictable in some ways because you're trying to test a vaccine as the virus ebbs and flows. we know in some parts of the world it's rising like brazil,

parts of -- in other places it's diminishing like the u.k. so when you start out to test it and give it to people, you're presuming the virus will be there to infect them so you can figure out if the vaccine works. but if it starts to get tamped down by behavior change or it ebbs and flows naturally, you're usually at risk of wasting time. while the president likes to talk about warp speed in developing vaccines, i think we might have to think about some alternative research trial designs in order to get answers. >> ian, first of all, how have you been feeling since we last spoke? because you're participating in a study for moderna for the vaccine. what stage are you at? >> that's right, yeah. so i received both doses of the vaccine at this point and i feel totally normal. i feel like i did before this whole thing started. that is to say i'm in good health. so at this point i'm just waiting and being watched by the clinic. >> and do you get -- i mean, do

you have a sense of how long this may take? for your -- >> yeah, unfortunately as a participant, i'm not given any information about the trial any sooner than anyone else. so recently moderna was out with a press release showing some preliminary data from my study. seeing that press release online was the first i learned a bit about my own body, about the fact i have developed antibodies as a result of this vaccination. it's unclear yet whether those antibodies are going to be useful, but i'm sort of like everyone else, waiting eagerly for this kind of news. >> if memory serves me, the small and medium doses of the vaccine were the most effective or the least side effects, and they're going to continue with those and not with the higher dose. did you get the higher dose? >> i did, yeah. i was among the first people who received the higher dose. >> did you get a lot of side effects? >> i did have a bit of a rough

go of things for 24 hours there. fever, nausea, things like that. that passed after about a day. i'm happy to see that moderna is discontinuing the highest dose at this point. i think that's good news overall, but there is still a lot to be hopeful about for this candidate moving forward. still it will take months before we know if it's really working. >> art, you talked about different methods. can you explain the difference between a clinical study like ian is participating in and what's known as a challenge study which is what i think you might have been referring to? >> yeah, it was, anderson. so, in the standard study that ian is in, you get these safety reports. then you have to jump to like 10,000 people and you need a big number because you're waiting for nature to infect people who you've given the vaccine to to see what's going to happen. so it can be a long haul. months, maybe a year. there is another design. it's ethically contin shus, but it's one i would defend, that is vaccinate the people then deliberately infect 4 to 500 of

them with the virus. pick people who are young, who are facing pretty remote risk of death or hospitalization. and the reason you do that, anderson, is that does speed up the ability to get good hard data quickly. you're not waiting a year. you can get an answer in months. so obviously controversial because you would only take volunteers, people who knew that there was no rescue for them if they were to get really, really sick from getting infected. but i think it's something we ought to be thinking about. >> art, i guess the ethics behind it, you look at ethical issues all the time. is the fact that just the global nature of this, the death toll, does that tip the balance in a case like this for you? >> yeah, i think it does. we're up to 100,000 deaths a year. every month we delay trying to see if the standard method of getting an answer gives us a vaccine that can work, it means

hundreds, thousands more deaths worldwide while we're waiting. remember, anderson, the risk factor for a young person 20 to 30 who might volunteer here is about the same as donating a kidney to try and rescue someone else. so it's not a wild risk they're taking. it's something we do tolerate. and again, you'd only take volunteers, you'd only take people who understood what was going on. but i think if we're going to get, you know, hopefully a vaccine, maybe it won't be this first one. maybe it will be the second one, maybe it will be the third one we try, but we need speed. the world basically is going to have to vaccinate its way out of this pandemic ultimately, and i think the standard way of doing it is just too slow. >> ian, i know you and i have spoken about this before. what do you think about the challenge study idea? >> yeah, something i've given ape lot of thought to. i've written an op-ed on it. basically i'm not looking to rush into, but it is something i'm open to. i wrote the conkigss would have to be right. several conditions.

it has to make sense scientifically. of course it's risky. but as dr. kaplan mentioned for people like me, we're pretty much the lowest risk cohort. something like 99% chance that i would even need to be hospitalized if i were to catch covid. so that's one. that certainly lowers the risk a bit. it would be better if we had medications and interventions, but at the end of the day if the conclusion is that a challenge study really could speed things up, if there was scientific justification to do it and it could perhaps prevent a second wave, it is something i would be open to. >> ian, we talked before and i think it's amazing what you've done thus far and i thank you. thank you for talking about it. i appreciate it. art, thank you. a really important discussion to have. art kaplan. >> thank you. >> up next we remember those who have fallen to the police officer. a police officer dedicated his life to his family, his community. tell you about him when we return. so, no more tossing and turning. because only tempur-pedic adapts

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we mentioned at the top of the broadcast that any day now this nation will have suffered 100,000 deaths due to the coronavirus. it is a staggering figure and one we can only begin to really try to wrap our minds around. it's more than just a big number. each death obviously represents a family that's been changed forever. and as often as possible on this program we want to remember those who have been lost. tonight our randi kaye brings us the story of a new jersey police officer, charles obts.

his police chief said of him in a statement to cnn, "there was no other like him, an officer ready to aid any who needed him." >> reporter: charles edward roberts had a zest for life and a twinkle in his i've. his wife of nearly 18 years, alice roberts, calls him the ultimate people person. with a generosity that was unmatched. >> he was just an incredibly generous, giving, selfless, empathetic person. >> reporter: rob, as everyone called him, had a knack for making people feel safe. a perfect fit for his job as a police officer for the last 20 years in glenridge, new jersey. there was nothing rob wouldn't do for his community. >> if the crossing guard calls out sick, because many of them are senior citizens, you know, he would be the one crossing the children. >> reporter: rob made family a priority too. the father of three coached his kids' teams. and together they went hiking and fishing. to mets games and concerts.

this is video of rob teaching his youngest daughter, natalie, to ride a bike. >> go natalie. all by yourself. you did it. go natdlalie. go. >> he would just be constantly incredibly positive towards everyone. you know, you got this, you did it. a constant sort of encouragement. >> reporter: then in april everything changed. rob had been self-isolating upstairs in their home after seven of his co-workers were diagnosed with coronavirus. rob had bad headaches and had lost his appetite and sense of taste. but he didn't have any fever. still, on april 21st, just as a health care worker was telling rob over the phone that he had tested positive for the virus, he collapsed and stopped breathing. the health care worker on the other end of the line called 911, and rob's fellow officers raced to his home. >> we found him collapsed on the floor. i was frozen on the stairs, and his co-workers said oh, he has a

faint pulse. and i think he radioed everything's kind of a blur after, that but he radioed for additional backup. and shortly after he started cpr. i just remember getting my kids to the basement. >> reporter: for three weeks doctors desperately tried to save rob. his sister also waited for answers. >> it is i have three children who absolutely adored and looked up to him. and we were -- it was like we couldn't breathe for three weeks. just waiting for information, updates. >> reporter: around town residents put up blue hearts to support the officer. they also held a vigil on the family's front lawn. but rob never regained consciousness. the day before he died, doctors allowed alice inside her husband's hospital room. >> we face-timed with the children from the bedside on may 10th, mother's day. we just basically told him he

wasn't alone. we played music for him. we told him it was okay to go. >> reporter: rob died may 11th. he was just 45 years old. doctors told the family rob had surprisingly low potassium levels, which stopped heart. his wife says rob's brain never recovered from lack of oxygen. alice says she and her children are grateful for the time they had with him. >> we're not angry. we're just grateful. we just wish we had more time. and you always think you're going to have more time. it's just so quiet without him. it's just -- it's like an energy has been sucked out. and it's just a big gaping hole. >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn, west palm beach, florida. >> what a man. what a family. our thoughts with the entire roberts family tonight and all those who have been suffering due to the coronavirus. we'll be right back. t-mobile and sprint are joining forces to power your business. we're building a 5g network that will

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good evening again. in this hour of "360" the president is poised to make this memorial day a turning point in thinks campaign to reopen the country, to transition as he says to great next. this happening even as this day of remembrance also marks the approach of a disastrous milestone, 100,000 deaths from coronavirus. right now the death toll stands at more than 98,000 lives lost. and in 40 out of 50 states the number of new cases is either rising or holding steady.