good evening. this memorial day was, in many ways, a contrast perhaps more than ever because in today's traditional memorial day mix, for those who died serving this country in the armed forces and parties marking the unofficial start of summer. there were contrasts, within contrasts, as the coronavirus death toll approaches 100,000 americans killed. the president today at arlington national cemetery. the man running against him, former vice president joe biden at a veterans memorial in delaware. one wearing a mask. one, not.

contrasting signals or, perhaps, contrasting priorities. as for the vietnam memorial, with the names of 58,000 service members killed over the 19 years of that conflict, two contrasting, remembering the dead but preserving the life. those who survive the war might also survive this. contrasting signs, as well, on how the commander in chief chose to conduct himself in this moment, as a self-described wartime president. today, at ft. mchenry in maryland, reading prepared remarks, he sounded like any other president on any other memorial day. >> as one nation, we mourn alongside every single family that has lost loved ones. including the families of our great veterans. together, we will vanquish the virus and america will rise from this crisis to new and even greater heights. >> well, that was at five past 12 in maryland. at 2:34, on twitter, the

president called pennsylvania congressman and marine corps veteran connor lamb, quote, an american fraud. the president mocked the weight of three prominent women. he flung other insults as well which don't bear repeating. he continued pushing a baseless conspiracy theory about the death of a young woman. and he played golf, the very thing he attacked president obama before during the ebola outbreak. if the president still believes there is a war underway, he clearly now sees it as every state for itself. we have learned the administration's latest plan on testing continues to largely put the burden on individual states. experts say voicing doubts, the executive director of the association of public health laboratories telling "the new york times" that when it comes to abobtaining the supplies need to do that testing, which has been a huge problem as you know, said, quote, you can't leave it up to the states to do it for themselves. this is not the hunger games. then again, the president, as you know, has already weighed in

quite clearly on the subject. setting the tone as far back as march 13th. >> dr. fauci said, earlier this week, that the lag in testing was, in fact, a failing. do you take responsibility for that? and when can you guarantee that every single american who needs a test, will be able to have a test? what's the date of that? >> yeah. no, i don't take responsibility at all because we were given a -- a set of circumstances. and we were given rules, regulations, and specifications, from a different time. and we're now in very, very strong shape. >> keeping him honest. back when he said that, it was hard to figure out whether he was merely ducking accountability in retrospect or also going forward. today, the answer seems clear. -l the president is leaving responsibility to the states, while also tweeting credit for any success belongs to him. meantime, he is not telling the truth about conditions in those states. tweeting yesterday, quote, cases, numbers, and deaths, are going down all over the country.

in fact, sadly, new cases are going down in just ten states. they are rising in 18 and holding steady in 22. in other words, in 40 out of 50 states, coronavirus infections are not declining. now, it would be good to report tonight that they are, but that, sadly, is not so. new deaths are declining slightly. the blue, dotted line is the five-day moving average. however, because week end numbers tend to be underreported and this is a three-day weekend, it's hard to draw any conclusion yet. and you won't hear this president or his administration reminding those states where cases are rising. that under the cdc guidelines and the guidelines that the president and the coronavirus task force once backed. that was just a couple weeks ago. they shouldn't be reopening. he is doing the opposite, though. in fact, tweeting this morning, quote, transition to greatness, get ready, it is already happening. that type of language, when said against what nearly every health official says, including ones on his own task force, is creating the final holiday contrast.

side by side, two different americas this holiday weekend when it comes to the coronavirus. in one, you see empty beaches. people keeping their distance, wearing masks, being cautious. in the other, even in states where cases are not dropping, there are people packed together, throwing caution and perhaps viral particles to the wind. and, in the middle of all this, the president's been threatening to move the august republican convention out of charlotte, north carolina, if the state's governor does not, in the president's words, quote, guarantee we will be allowed full attendance in the arena. talking about thousands of people, from all 50 states, packed into an arena in the middle of a pandemic. we are joined by cnn chief political analyst, gloria. also celine gounder. so dr. gounder, what do you make of the trump administration's doubling down on putting responsibility of testing on the states? do you think this will turn into the hunger games scenario, with states competing for resources

and supplies, yet again? >> anderson, i think, sadly, the federal strategy is no strategy and an abdication of responsibility to the states. we've already seen a hunger games, lord of the flies kind of scenario, previously, involving ventilators and other personal protective equipment. and i think we're going to see this continue. you know, i think there just needs to be more leadership and more role modeling from the federal level, which we're just not getting right now. >> gloria, given all we saw and heard from the president this weekend, i'm wondering what message et cetera he is sending to americans about the virus and where we stand again against it because there is this strange double speak. i mean, he talked about others playing both sides, whatever that meant. but he seems to be making both sides of the argument. on the one hand, through his coronavirus task force, they put out these guidelines about how states should reopen. but then, he's undercutting it immediately and continually, and that seems to be where his focus

is now. >> well, he's undercutting it and, then, not paying attention to it. and then, when he orders states, who have reservations about churches opening, to reopen, saying i'm going to override you which, by the way, he has no power to do. the message is things are normal. everything is back to normal. i'm out here playing golf. i'm not wearing a mask. never mind the warnings from dr. hahn, at the fda, or dr. birx that everybody has to be careful now, really careful, about the way we reopen and the way we behave on this holiday weekend. the president -- the president's message was i'm in charge. things are great. things are back to normal. the economy's going to get popping pretty soon. so not to worry. we have it all under control, which gives people, i think, a certain permission to say, well, if he's not wearing a mask, i don't have to wear a mask. if he's out there playing golf, not wearing a mask, not worrying

about the pandemic. well, okay, fine. that's good enough by me. and that is a mixed message, anderson. >> dr. gander, what about the testing standards laid out in this report that testing 3,000 people a day, focused on those likely to have the virus, is sufficient for containment? does that make sense to you? because i remember bill gates being on our town hall a couple weeks ago talking about the, you know, 200,000 tests a day figure that the administration was using and he essentially said that's a phony number because it takes days for many of those tests to get results. and, by that point, the person, very possibly, has interacted with any number of people and potentially spread the virus. so what is the -- the point of that -- that -- that old test? >> well, that number is nowhere near enough. so it's just some pretty quick math. if you say if you want to test everybody who comes into the hospital, which is what we're doing right now, what we call a rule out when you come into the hospital and make sure you don't have covid.

then, you talk about testing everybody who is in a nursing home, both the presidents and the staff, maybe twice a month. so every incubation period. so that's another 150,000 tests a day. and then, you have people working in meatpacking plants. people who are frontline workers, doctors, nurses, emts. not to mention, people who have symptoms and people who have been exposed. so those numbers are more like a million tests a day, anderson. >> a million tests a day. but i mean, is that -- is that a realistic number that one can actually do and get results in a timely manner? >> well, i think with the advent of what are called antigen tests. so this is the third kind of test that has come out, which is really a test for the proteins of the virus. this is a much quicker, simpler, cheaper test, that does promise to help us scale this up. it's not as sensitive as the pcr tests, which are the first tests to come out, the test for the genetic material. but if you're talking about repeat testing people, on a fairly frequent basis, you know, once a month, twice a month,

depending on the setting. that probably is sufficient. but we need to be scaling up that capacity, dramatically, right now. >> gloria, it does seem -- and i mean, it's an awful thing to think about. but it does seem like there is a -- such a clear, obvious political calculation by this white house, by this president, on battling this virus. i mean, that's -- it seems like it is being seen through political terms. i mean, obviously, even just his focus on churches reopening. i mean, you know, i -- you know, he has not had a track record throughout his life of being a big attender of churches. and, you know, obviously, everybody wants religious institutions to be able to open and function and people be able to express their faith and gather together. but it's the idea that, you know, he is the person pushing this when it's really not up to him. it's just one of the more obvious political kind of considerations he's making.

>> sure. sure, it is, anderson. throughout all of this, we've seen a president who wants to take responsibility, when it's good for him, such as saying i think churches need to reopen. this is very important. he -- he said churches are essential and he wants that to reopen. when it comes to taking responsibility for testing, as we were just talking about, for getting enough swabs for testing, from the beginning of this, getting enough ppe, et cetera. he's like, well, that's up to the states. it's up to the states. and so, in terms of reopening, if the states do it well, he'll take some credit for that. but the governors are the ones there left saying, wait a minute, it is -- as you -- as you use before, the hunger games, it is the hunger games because we have to compete against each other and why didn't you use the defense production act, from day one, to help us? so we didn't have to compete.

new york doesn't have to compete against oklahoma or what other state. or so the governor of maryland didn't have to go to south korea to get what he wanted. so it is a president who says, wait a minute, your responsibility when it could fail. but my responsibility when he's giving the political message, which is i'm a cheerleader. things are going to get better. thangs a things are great. here i am out on the golf course. i, personally, don't want to wear a mask. it's a personal decision so, you know, that's up to you. so it is -- it is, clearly, political for this president who, by the way, was tweeting liberate states with democratic governors who were worried about reopeni reopening too quickly. if that isn't political, i don't know what is. >> dr. gounder, when you see, you know, states reopen. there's -- there's several states that have reopened that have not seen an uptick in -- in cases which, you know, people look at and say, well, look. you know, that state, there hasn't been. obviously, you know, we're looking at the numbers.

cases rising in 18 states. falling in 10. holding steady in 22 states. what do you say to people who say, look, the economic damage being done is worse than the -- than the medical issues? >> well, i think one issue that has not been clearly communicated to the american public, anderson, is why testing is so important here. so it's actually twofold. it's, both, for public health and for the economy. so, from a public health perspective, we want to know who is infected right now. and we want to separate them. we want to isolate them and offer them treatment. but we want to separate them from people who are not infected so we can break chains of transmission. so we don't have ongoing transmission. and, secondly, if you think about it, you know, do you want to go get your hair cut or see the dentist when your dentist or hairdresser might have covid? whereas, if we had more regular testing of everybody, something that paul romer, the former chief economist of the world bank has proposed. the idea that i see my dentist and i know he's been tested in

the past two weeks, that would make me feel a lot more confident about going out in public. and so testing is really key to protecting the public's health and the economy. >> picture from the ozarks we were showing there. gloria, dr. gounder, thank you so much. silicon valley executive has been writing about the pandemic. his writing has really been essential reading for me and many others. his latest effort can be seen on youtube posted today. compares how tightly countries have locked themselves down with how well they have done in slowing their outbreaks. thomas, great to see you. you describe what's happening as a hammer and a dance. what happens if some states continue to, you know, observe strict guidelines or at least stricter, compared to what other states are doing, which is the hammer? while the others start what you call the dance, as we saw this weekend. a lot of dancing has begun. >> that only works if travelers going into the state that is doing all the right measures, can be quarantined. so alaska, hawaii, for example,

have been doing that and enforcing it. everybody that goes into these states are into a -- get into a two-week quarantine. many other states have rules like this, but they're not enforcing them. as a result, a state, for example, like california, that has been very aggressive on the hammer and wants to dance but is getting a lot of people from outside. and they're not being quarantined. then, all of these efforts have been worthless. >> how do you see big-picture what's happening right now in the united states? >> we are seeing one of the only places in the world where the highest level of sovereignty decided not to use its power. that hasn't happened in nearly any other country in the world. as a result, as we were just saying, the states are left to fend for themselves but they don't have all the power that other countries have. and one of the key ones that other countries have is the one of closing their borders. and so, this is something that there are some precedence for

and at this point, given that some states don't care as much as others, i think the states that really care about, should consider that. especially, just quarantining all the travelers that are coming into those states. >> is that even possible? i mean, for a state like new york or, you know, i don't know. for any state, is it really possible to close their borders and quarantine anybody who comes in? >> it is possible. but some states, obviously, have it easier than others. for example, california. all of its neighbors have very few cases. and so as a result, where california's really easy, hawaii or alaska they might just want to quarantine people coming from airports. obviously, for states like new york, it's harder. but we've done this in -- in europe. germany, for example, czechoslovakia, all these countries are very, very interconnected. and for a few weeks, they just close the borders. >> you know, part of the reason for locking down was to give the health care system, sort of,

time to space out the cases and not be overwhelmed and not collapse. have -- has it -- has that, actually, worked? so, moving forward, we're seeing all these places reopening. if there is a groundswell, now, of cases, what happens? >> yeah. so there's really two goals, right? one of them is to prevent that from happening in the future. and i think we are in a better position now because at least we are alert. we know what's going on. we're testing much more. and if there's massive outbreaks, we can see that coming. so i think that is -- we are in a better position, in that regard. the problem that we have is that, going for that strategy, which is mitigation, might end up with what we called herd immunity. it means that we don't go for a lot of people not being -- being infected all the time. but, over time, they accumulate and accumulate and accumulate. and, by the time 65% of the population has been infected, you have, in a country like the

u.s., a million, 2 million, people dead. so that is the -- the -- the issue that states like california, hike llike hawaii, idaho, like alaska, want to avoid. if we can crush the curve and really get the cases to a minimum until we have vaccine or treatment, we can reopen the economy, safely, without all the death and sickness burden. >> if there is -- i mean, if -- if the vaccine, you know, takes longer than people think, herd immunity. how long would it take to get herd immunity? and -- yeah. >> yeah. no. i think the best country that has explored these is sweden. in the very beginning, they said we're going to be cautious but we are not going to close a lot of places. they asked people to stay home. and what they said, at the beginning, was there's no way to stop this. and, by may, around 25 to 50% of our population will have caught this, anyway.

well, it turns out that they did a test of antibodies, the way we -- we -- the ones that we were talking about before. around the beginning of may. they were expecting, again, 25, 50% of people infected. they found 7%. and so that means that they are ten times -- like, they need to multiply, by ten, the number of infected. and then, go order to get to herd immunity. so it's not -- it's not going to be fast. it's going to take a long time. and, during that time, people are scared to go out. they don't want to consume. and the economy is penalized, instead of taking the hit early on, aggressively. and then, once the cases are controlled, opening up, much more -- with much more confidence. >> obviously, the death toll in sweden is much greater than any of the neighboring states around it. you've also written about seeding and spreading. can you explain what you mean by that? >> yeah. so -- so the two keys there, right, is you don't want, first, if you are doing hammer and the dance. you are controlling the cases in your state, right?

first, you don't want people to come into the state and see new cases. and then, after that, you don't want them to spread into -- into the state. so there are some rules you can follow to do that. like, for example, for travelers. if you quarantine them for two weeks, all of them, then, suddenly, your seeding is much lighter. and then the spreading. we now have good understanding of what works and what doesn't. for example, you were talking about churches. it's really not that bad it's not that churches are open or closed. the issue with churches is a lot of the spread of coronavirus is perfect for churches. it spreads really well in places that are contained, a lot of people that are together for a long amount of time. singing, talking, and touching. right? so that's why there's been so many outbreaks in churches. should not be open or closed. in fact, it's not, right? a lot of churches are open, remotely. and there are other many ways we could do to open -- open them safely. for example, we could be doing this outdoors. we could be wearing masks.

we could be making sure that everybody keeps six feet apart. these measures would dramatically reduce the contagion in churches. but these rules are also valued for all the economy. we can, using these insights, change economy, change how businesses are set up so we can reopen the economy more safely. >> thomas, i appreciate all you're writing about. >> breaking news from the white house. in the wake of new numbers from brazil, more than 800 fatalities just in the last 24 hours according to government of brazil. nearly 12,000 new cases. second only to the u.s. jeremy diamond has the latest for us. the administration is now moving up their travel restrictions on brazil. >> that's right, anderson. just yesterday, the presidents had announced these new travel restrictions, barring most foreign nationals who have been to brazil in the last two weeks from entering the united states. that was supposed to go into effect on thursday, at the end of the day. instead, they are now moving that date up to tomorrow, at the end of the day tomorrow.

this, of course, comes, anderson, as there has been an explosion of cases of coronavirus in brazil. it is now has the second most reported cases in the world. we should note that president trump has, you know, floated these possible restrictions last week. but, prior to that, anderson, he had repeatedly praised the brazilian president bolsonaro for his handling of the coronavirus pandemic. despite the fact that bolsonaro has been one of those leaders who has repeatedly downplayed the threat of this virus and really focused more on the economic impact than on the health impact in his country. but, nonetheless, this seems to suggest, anderson, that there is a growing concern at the white house about this. and we should note that the cdc director, robert redfield, just a couple weeks ago, he said that if there is, indeed, a second wave of this virus or second peak of this virus in the fall, in the winter, in the united states, that it likely will be triggered, in part at least, by growing cases in the southern hemisphere. and so, this is certainly part of the concern at the white house. and among the coronavirus task force.

and the white house, we should note, anderson, has left open the possibility of additional travel restrictions on other countries in latin america. anderson. >> jeremy diamond. thanks very much. up next, what it looks like in one alabama town where social distancing is dropping even as cases are rising and ts mayor of montgomery, alabama, who says his hospitals are still at a crisis level. >> later, both hope and fresh doubts in the search for a vaccine. breaking news on human trials. also, caution from another respected team of researchers who now say there is a 50/50 -- or a 50% chance they get no result at all. we' we'll be right back. they are compelled to step forward.

to the front lines. and into the unknown... for all of us.

we have been talking tonight about the president's celebration of this holiday weekend as a turning point toward in his push to what he calls transition to greatness. meaning resurgence of the economy. looking to numbers, though, red line is the moving average of new cases in the state. it's moving, there, in the wrong direction. in a moment, we will approximjo the mayor of montgomery, alabama. first, gary tuchman reporting from gulf shores. >> coronavirus cases in alabama are going the wrong way. they are trending up. but the state is now wide open for business. social distancing is the state's rule. but that effort has often been

unexercised in futility at restaurants and bars in the beach town this memorial day weekend as people come back to party. at this restaurant and bar in gulf shores, alabama, many wonder why it took this long to open. >> i'm just here just to have fun and meet everybody. and just be cool, you know? >> across the street, the beach is jammed. groups are supposed to be six feet away from each other. police work to enforce that. the groups are, also, ordered to only consist of people who live in the same household. there is no active effort to enforce that. bailie carr is 21. she just graduated from college. >> i mean, everybody's got to go somehow, you know what i mean? >> you mean die? >> yeah. but, in a way, like, i mean, i don't want to die. but i mean, if that's what god has in store for my life, then that's okay. >> my family has the same mindset as me. and we kind of disagreed that if we get it, we get it. we're going to handle it, as a family, and just get over it because that's what family does. >> when it comes to coronavirus,

medical experts will tell you they're very concerned about the immediate future here, in alabama. on this beach, though, your eyes and ears will tell you something much different. >> just like the flu, right? >> well, it's not just like the flu. it's far more contagious and far more deadly. >> i know. but people die from the flu also. so, to me, that's just the way i look at it. >> do you have any concerns being at the beach with so many people with your children? >> not at all. >> how come you're not worried at all that someone could walk by and get you sick? >> because there's enough wind and air that's going to clear it all out of here. >> the wind and air don't clear it away. there's no proof of anything like that. there is wind and air everywhere in this world. >> yeah, i'm not worried about it at all. >> and then, there was the issue of masks. we saw a grand total of zero being worn on the beach. >> do you ever wear a mask? >> no. my wife and kids do. i don't. >> how come you don't? >> i just feel comfortable that i'm going to be okay. >> but the mask isn't to keep you okay. it's to keep your wife and kids okay. to protect them. >> i get it.

i get it. survival rate is so high, i think -- >> you're not worried about them getting sick because they're going to live. >> we're all going to get sick for something eventually. >> president trump is part of this conversation. >> i mean, if he's not wearing a mask, i'm not going to wear a mask. if he's not worried, i'm not worried. >> the president. >> yes, sir. >> speaking of masks, alabama has mandated them for restaurant and bar workers. some restaurants have them. but at others, where we arrived unannounced, and shot cell phone video, employees were not wearing masks. the manager here telling us, after our visit, he has now given masks to his employees, with instructions to wear them. at this other restaurant/bar where we also saw no employees wear masks, the manager told us they will continue not wearing them because she wants it that way. despite it violating the state order. traffic, very heavy in alabama's beach towns. all nearby hotels sold out as the holiday weekend began. alabama is back in business. covid surge or not.

>> when it's my time to go, it's just my time to go, i guess. >> gary joins us now. so who enforces violations of the state reopening orders? >> well, anderson, the police departments throughout the state of alabama have that right to make those kind of arrests. i talked, just a short time ago, to the police department here, in gulf shores. they say they've made no arrests over this memorial day weekend. i talked to one police officer. he said they've issued several warnings. now, at this time, it's not the most pleasant thing to make these kind of arrests. but you don't have to be a sleuth to find these restaurants around here with waiters and bartenders with no masks. they are all over the place. matter of fact, i got my lunch at a place just like that, earlier today. anderson. >> gary, thank you. stay safe. steven reid is the mayor of montgomery, alabama. he joins us now. mayor reid, thanks for being with us. you said alabama's easing restrictions has given people a false sense of security. i guess, when you see the beaches of alabama crowded with people. you know, no social distancing.

not wearing masks. are you concerned? >> absolutely. it gives me pause to think about what we may see the next week or two, when people get back to their communities, from vacationing down on the gulf coast. it's problematic that people believe this pandemic -- it's problematic for me that people are cavalier about their behavior. it's problematic, to me, that we have not done a better job, at the state and national level, of explaining the seriousness of this virus to, not only the people, directly, but, also, to their friends, their family, and certainly our first responders and medical personnel who also participate in this. >> it's difficult for -- i mean, any public official, you know, obviously, you want your community to, economically be thriving. and you want the people of your community to be safe and -- and healthy. there are an awful lot of people who are just, you know, tired of lockdowns or being at home. and, you know, see the president

not wearing a mask. and just think, you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. what -- how do you -- what do you say to that? >> well, what we're trying to do, in montgomery, is to make sure people understand we have not won this battle, yet. we want people to stay at home. we want them to wear a mask when out in public. we've been strongly encouraging that for, now, a couple of months. we are also asking them to adhere to the cdc guidelines on social distancing. but we also understand that people are seeing stories of recovery. we're working with our small-business community, to make sure they get back up and going. we have a fund together, recover together fund, here in this community, to help our small businessowners. but we don't want to do that at the expense of the health of the community. we have to continue taking these precautions. and we're trying to overcommunicate, not only with business leaders but, our faith leaders, as well as our hospital administrators, who have told me

that this is a crisis. this is something they have not seen in decades in this region, and they are very concerned. not only for the community but, also, the staff. so, you know, they have an emotionally and physically spent staff right now. and that has a domino effect, not only here, in montgomery, but throughout this region. and we just have to continue to sound the alarm where there is concern. >> do you -- i mean, in montgomery, how do you -- do you have power to, you know, enforce? i mean, who's -- who's in charge of enforcing the -- the mandates from the -- from the governor? is it city by city? is it up to the local officials? >> by and large, it's city by city. county by county. except for, maybe, two counties out of 67 in the state. we have to adhere, when the governor lifted the shelter-in-place order, that really made a big impact. i think that gave people a false sense of security of where we stood in this battle against the

pandemic. so we'll -- we'll continue to try to explain to people where we are right now. and what we're doing is we are trying to partner with our community leaders. we're trying to partner with people, social media influencers, to let everyone know where we stand. and we still have a little bit ways to go to beat this virus. we're just not there yet and we have to get people to understand that. or we're going to have a second wave that's going to cost us much more than it already has. >> yeah. i know you have been very vocal about the lack of icu beds. you know, intensive care unit beds in montgomery. i know, at one point, you were down to one icu bed left. where do you stand with that now? how are your hospitals? >> we've seen a marginal improvement. we have probably 7% of icu beds. the hospitals believe that this is manageable. but it's not sustainable. and that's what they're sharing with me is that they are concerned about ppes. they are concerned about their beds. they are concerned about icus,

as well as just the overall resources that are dwindling. so we aren't at the cliff, yet. but we can see it. and so we're just trying to make sure people understand we want to slow things down, before we get too close. >> mayor steven reed. appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. wish you the best. >> always a pleasure. >> up next, breaking news on a potential coronavirus vaccine in the works. the news comes as a group of researchers at oxford university say the declining rates of infection may hinder the ability of scientists everywhere to successfully develop a vaccine. we'll explain that, ahead. bottom line is,

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there is breaking news to report on the race for a

vaccine. a tenth company now says it's entered the human trial portion of the testing process. maryland-based novavax says it expects preliminary safety results by july. however, a different team in the united kingdom is advising caution when it comes to news about vaccines. researchers at oxford university are past the clinical testing phase and are now trying to test thousands and say they are facing a hurdle that may, at first, sound like a positive. a declining infection rate. told a british newspaper this weekend it's more difficult to test a vaccine with fewer people getting sick. quote, there is a 50% chance that we get no result at all. for more on the hunt for vaccine, i'm joined by cnn medical analyst and director of ethics at medical center and ian hayden, the company moderna. >> when you hear oxford's coronavirus vaccine trial has 50% chance of showing no result, at all. this, after the amount of time and money that's been put behind it. is that a setback? how do you see this?

>> it's a big setback, anderson. but it's predictable, in some ways, because you're trying to test a vaccine as the virus ebbs and flows. we know some parts of the world, it's rising like brazil. or, in other places, it's diminishing, like the uk. so, when you start out to test it and give it to people, you're presuming the virus will be there to infect them. so you can figure out if the vaccine works. but if it starts to get tamped down by behavior change or just ebbs and flows, naturally, you're usually at risk of wasting time. and while the president likes to talk about warp speed in developing vaccines, i think we might have to think about some alternative research trial designs, in order to get answers. >> ian, first of all, how have you been feeling since -- since we last spoke? because you're participating in -- in a study for moderna for the vaccine. what -- what stage are you at? >> that's right.

yeah. so i received both doses of the vaccine, at this point. and i feel totally normal. i feel like i did before this whole thing started. that is to say, you know, i'm in good health. so, at this point, i'm just waiting and being watched by the clinic. >> and -- and do you get -- i mean, do you have a sense of -- of how long this may take? for your -- for your -- >> yeah. unfortunately, as a participant, i'm not given any information about the trial any sooner than anyone else. so recently, moderna was out with a press release showing some preliminary data from my study. and seeing that press release online was the first i learned a bit about my own body. the fact that i have developed antibodies as a result of this vaccination. it's unclear, yet, whether those antibodies are going to be useful. but, you know, i am sort of like everyone else, just waiting, eagerly, for this kind of news. >> if memory serves me, the small and medium doses of the vaccine were the most effective

or the least side effects. and they are going to continue with those, and not with the higher dose. did you get the higher dose? >> i did. yeah. i was among the first people to receive the highest dose. >> did you get a lot of side effects? >> i did have a bit of a rough go of things for 24 hours there. fever, nausea, things like that. that passed, after about a day. i'm happy to see that moderna is discontinuing the highest dose at this point. i think that's good news, overall. but there's still a lot to be hopeful about for this candidate vaccine, moving forward. of course, still, it will take months till we know it's really working. >> you talked about different methods. can you explain the difference between a clinical study like ian is participating in and what's known as a challenge study, which is i think what you might have been referring to. >> yeah, it was, anderson. so, in the standard study that ian is in, you get these safety reports. and then, you've got to job to, like, 10,000 people. and you need a big number because you are waiting for nature to infect people who you have egivgiven the vaccine to,

see what's going to happen. so it can be a long haul. months. maybe a year. there is another design. it's ethically contentious but one i would defend, and that is, vaccinate the people and then deliberately infect, maybe, 4 to 500 of them with the virus. pick people who are young, who are facing pretty remote risk of death or hospitalization. and the reason you do that, anderson, is that does speed up the ability to get good, hard data, quickly. you're not waiting a year. you can get an answer in months. so obviously, controversial, because you would only take volunteers. people who knew that there was no rescue for them, if they were to get really, really sick from getting infected. but i think it's something we ought to be thinking about. >> and, art, i mean, i guess, the ethics behind this you're an ethicist. you look at ethical issues all the time. is the fact that just the -- the global nature of this, the death

toll, does that tip the balance in -- in a case like this, for you? >> yeah. i think it does. we're up to 100,000 deaths here. every month, we delay, trying to see if the standard method of getting an answer gives us a vaccine that can work. it means hundreds, thousands more deaths, worldwide, while we're waiting. remember, anderson, the risk factor for a young person 20-30 who might volunteer here is about the same as donating a kidney to try and rescue someone else. so it's not a wild risk they're taking. it's something we do tolerate. and, again, you only take volunteers. you'd only take people who, certainly, understood what was going on. but i think, if we're going to get, you know, hopefully, a vaccine. maybe it won't be this first one. maybe it'll be the second one. maybe it'll be the third one we try. but we need speed. the world, basically, is going to have to vaccinate its way out of this pandemic, ultimately. and i think the standard way of doing it is just too slow. >> in -- i know you and i have spoken about this before. where -- what do you think about

the challenge study idea? >> yeah. it's something i have given a lot of thought to. i've written an op-ed on it. basically, i'm not looking to rush into something like that. but it's something i am open to. and -- and i've written that, basically, the conditions would have to be right. and there are several conditions. it has to make sense scientifically. of course, it's risky. but as dr. caplan mentioned, for people like me, we're pretty much the lowest-risk cohort. there's something like a 99% chance i wouldn't need to be hospitalized if i were to catch covid. that certainly lowers the risk a bit. it would be better if we had medications and interventions. but, you know, at the end of the day, if the conclusion is that a challenge study really could speed things up. that there was scientific justification to do it and it could, you know, perhaps, prevent a second wave. it is something that i would be open to. >> ian, we've talked before and i just think it's amazing what you've done, thus far. and thank you. and i thank you for talking about it. appreciate it. and, art, thank you. really important discussion to

have. art caplan. thank you. up next, we continue to remember those who have fallen to the drau coronavirus. a police officer who dedicated his life to his family, his community. tell you about him when we return.

♪ here's what we want everyone to do. count all the hugs you haven't given. all the hands you haven't held. all the dinners you didn't share with friends. the trips you haven't taken. keep track of them. each one means one less person vulnerable, one less person exposed, and one step closer to a healthier community. so for now, keep your distance. but don't lose count. we'll have some catching up to do. we mentioned at the top of the broadcast that any day now this nation will have suffered 100,000 deaths due to the coronavirus. it is a staggering figure and

one we can only begin to really try to wrap our minds around. it's more than just a big number. each death obviously represents a family that's been changed forever. and as often as possible on this program we want to remember those who have been lost. tonight our randi kaye brings us the story of a new jersey police officer, charles roberts. his police chief said of him in a statement to cnn, "there was no other like him, an officer ready to aid any who needed him." >> reporter: charles edward roberts had a zest for life and a twinkle in his eye. his wife of nearly 18 years, alice roberts, calls him the ultimate people person. with a generosity that was unmatched. >> he was just an incredibly generous, giving, selfless, empathetic person. >> reporter: rob, as everyone called him, had a knack for making people feel safe. a perfect fit for his job as a police officer for the last 20 years in glenridge, new jersey. there was nothing rob wouldn't do for his community. >> if the crossing guard calls

out sick, because many of them are senior citizens, you know, he would be the one crossing the children. >> reporter: rob made family a priority too. the father of three coached his kids' teams. and together they went hiking and fishing. to mets games and concerts. this is video of rob teaching his youngest daughter, natalie, to ride a bike. >> go natalie. all by yourself. you did it. go natalie. go. >> he would just be constantly incredibly positive towards everyone. you know, you got this, you did it. a constant source of encouragement. >> reporter: then in april everything changed. rob had been self-isolating upstairs in their home after seven of his co-workers were diagnosed with coronavirus. rob had bad headaches and had lost his appetite and sense of taste. but he didn't have any fever. still, on april 21st, just as a health care worker was telling rob over the phone that he had

tested positive for the virus, he collapsed and stopped breathing. the health care worker on the other end of the line called 911, and rob's fellow officers raced to his home. >> we found him collapsed on the floor. i was frozen on the stairs, and his co-workers said oh, he has a faint pulse. and i think he radioed everything's kind of a blur after, that but he radioed for additional backup. and shortly after he started cpr. i just remember getting my kids to the basement. >> reporter: for three weeks doctors desperately tried to save rob. his sister also waited for answers. >> it is heart-wrenching. i have three children who absolutely adored and looked up to him. and we were -- it was like we couldn't breathe for three weeks. just waiting for information, updates. >> reporter: around town residents put up blue hearts to support the officer. they also held a vigil on the

family's front lawn. but rob never regained consciousness. the day before he died, doctors allowed alice inside her husband's hospital room. >> we face-timed with the children from the bedside on may 10th, mother's day. we just basically told him he wasn't alone. we played music for him. we told him it was okay to go. >> reporter: rob died may 11th. he was just 45 years old. doctors told the family rob had surprisingly low potassium levels, which stopped his heart. his wife says rob's brain never recovered from lack of oxygen. alice says she and her children are grateful for the time they had with him. >> we're not angry. we're just grateful. we just wish we had more time. and you always think you're going to have more time. it's just so quiet without him. it's just -- it's like an energy has been sucked out. and it's just a big gaping hole. >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn,

west palm beach, florida. >> what a man. what a family. our thoughts with the entire roberts family tonight and all those who have been suffering due to the coronavirus. we'll be right back. i was just going to say on slide 7, talking about bundling and saving...umm... jamie, you're cutting out. sorry i'm late! hey, whoever's doing that, can you go on mute? oh, my bad! i was just saying there's a typo on slide 7. bundle home & auto for big discosnouts. i think that's supposed to say discounts. you sure about that? hey, can you guys see me?

this virus is testing all of us.

and it's testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. so abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. good evening again. in this hour of "360" the president is poised to make this memorial day a turning point in his campaign to reopen the

country, to transition as he