this is "gps", the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the show, america on fire after another black man is dead at the hands of police. brian stevenson, the author of "just mercy" and renown social activist joins me to discuss if the uproar this time will actually change things. pulitzer prize winner nicole hannah jones on america, racism and violence. then, hong kong in beijing's crosshairs. the mainland government is asserting greater control over the island. citizens of hong kong have

reacted angrily, so has the united states government. what happens next in this high stakes showdown? >> this is a tragedy for the people of hong kong, the people of china, and indeed the people of the world. i'll talk to the last british governor of hong kong, chris batten, as well as the city's legendary campaigner for democracy, martin leech. also, it's graduation season, at least on the internet. i will give graduates my thoughts and share some of the smartest that i have seen. first, here's my take. like most of you, i'm still taking in the events of the last few days, the gruesome death of george floyd, the riots on so many american cities. i just want to make a few brief observations. some people are asking why is this happening now, haven't things gotten better for african-americans? many are titans of business,

hold political office or are leaders in their communities. so let me say the events of the past week are happening against four backdrops. the first is our criminal justice system. things have improved along some dimensions for african-americans, but there are still pervasive inequities in this country, and most importantly, there are deep inequities in the criminal justice system. "the washington post" said start from something simple, like stopping a driver. in an interview with the "post" they explained that blacks are almost twice as likely to be pulled over as whites, even though whites drive more on average. blacks are more likely to be searched following a stop and just by getting in the car a black driver has about twice the odds of being pulled over and about four times the odds of being searched. according to their research, blacks are more likely to be searched even though they are less likely to have contraband.

it goes all the way to the death sentence which also seems to suffer from systematic bias. just one example, in a north carolina law review analyzing murder cases from 1980 to 2007 in that state, killing a white person made it through times more likely that someone would get the death sentence compared to killing a black person, and there are dozens of studies of various aspects of the system all pointing in the same direction. second, this is happening against the backdrop of a police that over the last several decades has been given more and more arms and greater and greater leeway in what they can do with them. when i travel around the world, this is one of the things that stands out about america's police force. it looks like an invading army with the kind of weaponry that in most countries is wielded only by an army. plus, you have unions, juries and laws that make it hard to actually dismiss a police officer for misconduct even for

totally legitimate reasons. third, let's not forget this is all happening against the backdrop of a pandemic, a lockdown, and three months in which 40 million americans have lost their jobs, a toll rivaling the great depression. this creates an atmosphere of anxiety, fear, and purposelessness for three months. it should be a wakeup call to leaders everywhere that people want to and need to return to some sense of normalcy, of course with maximum efforts to stay safe. it is also happening against a fourth backdrop, no national leadership on these issues. americans respond to leaders when they show empathy and courage, even when the message is hard to hear. recall robert kennedy's plea to the people of indianapolis after the death of martin luther king not to embrace violence. watch mayor lance bottoms talk to her city of atlanta.

but at a national level, there's just an effort to further divide, not to unify. in any event, i remain optimistic. these protests are part of the airing of problems, real problems, that many countries suppress. i've always been reminded in these moments of the closing lines of one of my favorite books by my former phd adviser sam huntington. in american process the promise of disharmony, he writes, critics say that america is a lie because its reality falls so far short of its ideals. they're wrong. america is not a lie. it is a disappointment, but it can be a disappointment only because it is also a hope. and let's get started. ♪ a warning, you are about to see some graphic video.

>> mama, that's who george floyd called for when a police officer's knee was on his neck. floyd later died in police custody, and floyd's killing along with other high profile killings of african-americans have captured america's attention. angry demonstrators have gone out to city streets across the u.s. for the past five nights. many protests have turned violent. let me bring in brian stevenson, an attorney and professor at nyu law school, the founder and z k executive director of the equal justice initiative. brian, thanks for coming on, and tell me how you react to the point i was making. you know, people are asking why is this happening. what do you think is the background that people need to understand? >> well, it's interesting. next month will be the 155th anniversary of thousands of emancipated black people who celebrated the end of slavery.

it's called june-teenth. they believed that this country would recon with all of the lies and distortions created to sustain slavery. black people were told to be -- said to be not fully human, not evolved. they can't do this, they can't do that. and these lies were needed to justify enslavement for two centuries. but rather than recon with those lies, confront that history, we've done the opposite. we've actually found ways to legitimize white supremacy. there was this myth of white supremacy and rather than protect and formally en slave black people, we did the opposite. we denied them the right to vote we had promised. we denied them the land. we allowed in this country for decades black people to be menaced and targeted and lynched and victimized, and our justice system did nothing to hold people accountable. we actually perpetuated this idea that black life does not matter, black rights do not matter.

for 100 years, black people were denied basic equality. i was born at a time when black people could not vote. i couldn't marry anybody i chose. there were laws prohibiting that. i couldn't go to the public school. i started my education in a colored school, and in the 1950s and '60s when black people put on their sunday best and went to places to protest jim crow and segregation, they would get beaten by the police literally on their knees, and that turned into some changes in laws, but since that time we have not reckoned with this history. we have not acknowledged the wrongfulness of white supremacy and segregation and racism, and because of that we now live at a time when there's still a presumption of guilt that gets assigned to black and brown people. the data you cited are a manifestation of this presumption, and until we recon with this history as germany has done, as rwanda has done, as south africa has done, we will live in a state, we will live in

a nation where black people are marginalized, menaced, excluded and threatened in the ways that we've seen with these acts of police violence. >> so help us explain, because you've been struggling with the criminal justice system for so many years, why is it that you hear people at the top seemingly trying to do the right thing, president obama when he was president, even now there's been this judicial prison reforms in terms of sentencing and things like that, but why is it not translating down to the day to day lives of black people when they encounter the police, the prosecutor, the jail? >> i don't think we've made the kind of effort that we need to make. there's been some discussion, usually in crisis, but it hasn't been followed by the kind of implementation. five years ago i was part of a task force with police chiefs and activists and advocates. we went around the country, we gathered testimony. we came up with 40 pages of

recommendations to change police culture, and that's what has to happen. the culture of policing in this country has to change. we trained police officers like we train soldiers. they're taught how to shoot and how to wrestle people and control people. they're not taught how to manage conflict and they're not taught how to de-escalate. we don't require data. we can't even tell you how often police kill folks in this country because there's no requirement for data. we haven't required the legal structure to change so that people can be held accountable. so this task force in 2015 made all of these recommendations, and frankly, when the new administration came in, they threw it away. they did exactly the opposite. they didn't support implementation of this, and that's been part of the problem. the justice department actually retreated from lawsuits where they were holding police departments accountable because they wanted to say something else. this is the consequence of that and i don't want to put it all on the white house because mayors and governors and local

legislators have not implemented these reforms either. we can change the culture of policing in this country. we've seen it happen before. we changed the culture around people driving while drunk. remember there was a time we didn't take seriously people who got in their car intoxicated even when they killed others but mothers against drunk driving and other advocated changed the culture on dmomestic violence. there was a time police would never arrest men accused of abusing their spouses. we've gotten to a point where we don't tolerate the same way. we have a long way to go. the culture is changing but we haven't changed the culture of policing. until we create a nation where our police officers see themselves as guardians rather than warriors, don't view the people they police as enemy combatants as you do in a foreign conflict, we're going to see the incidents that we've seen in minneapolis and too many communities across this country. >> do you think it even goes

beyond that? i wonder whether the police are being asked to handle things that are really part of a more general societal breakdown or, you know, issues where, i don't know, there should be greater efforts made to help kids be in school and work hard. you know, the police becomes the solution to a whole bunch of problems that are not in their origins, criminal in nature. >> i think there's some truth to that but the police have a role to play. the identity of police officers in this country for a long time has been to enforce all the conditions that give rise to true ansy, give rise to poverty, give rise to hopelessness. it was the police who tracked down fugitive slaves to sustain slavery. it was the police who turned their backs on white mobs when they were lynching people. it was the police that brutal li ized and blooded nonviolent

protestors. that identity cannot be ignored. you're right that there are broader issues that also have to be addressed. in 2001 the bureau of justice projected that one in three black male babies born in this country was expected to go to jail or prison, and that's not just about criminalalty. it's the way we traffic, enforce, menace and prosecute, and no one said anything. no one saw that as the crisis that it is. >> thank you so much, brian. i got to break in at this moment thanking you for those eloquent words. we're breaking in to take you to an amazing event going on 215 miles up in space. the spacex crew dragon is just moments away from docking with the international space station. this after yesterday's historic launch from kennedy space center in florida. it was the first time since 2011

when the space shuttle program ended. that accrued mission was launched from american soil. now let's watch and listen as the two astronauts, doug hurley and bob behnken, get ready to unite with their international colleagues. >> you can see much more clearly there the hinge mechanism for the nose comb, those four black circles are the four bulkheads, not to be used at this point. then of course the pedals of the soft capture system. wow. >> we're inside ten meters. we cannot make out the docking target but we do see the outline. >> copy and concur ten meters.

>> we're less than ten meters away. again, we're closing at that rate of less than a tenth of a meter per second. we should be just about 1:45 away from docking. >> there's a center line camera right in that middle so you can see where the forward hatch is and right in the middle of that there's a window and the center line cameras that's aligned with the center of the vehicle and the center of the docking mechanism. so that is what the autonomous docking system is using to line up with sort of a cross hatch cross toarget on the docking port. again, the forward docking forward on pma-2 or the pressurized meeting adapter. >> we are just five meters away. again, we're racing that sunset as dragon continues to close.

four meters to go. >> those shadows of the space station on the vehicle. you can actually see the center line camera pretty clearly there, sort of with the contrast of the sun right now. >> three meters to go. two meters. we are inside the hands-point, the crew hands-off point. one meter to go. soft capture complete. >> soft capture confirmed. stand by for retraction and docking.

>> and we just heard it, soft capture. we have docking, that coming at 7:16 a.m. pacific time with the station and dragon flying 262 statute miles right over the border between northern china and mongolia. >> you saw a little bit of motion there of dragon. it was that relative motion that the soft capture system is damping out. once that motion is clear, then the soft capture system will be retracted and dragon will go for hard capture. >> again, if just now tuning in, that soft capture, that docking coming 7:16 a.m. pacific, 10:16

a.m. over on the east coast, dragon and the international space station were flying 262 statute miles right over the border between northern china and mongolia. that soft capture now going to retract. it's one more step on the way to docking complete. >> so the next step here is once the soft capture ring is retracted, there are 12 latches that we refer to as hard capture latches. those are what will really create that pressure tight seal between the dragon spacecraft and the international space station. once soft capture is complete, i believe we'll get that call from our core here, anna. then we'll get confirmation of hard capture and the crew, of course, aboard have this

information on their displays so they'll also see indication of our capture complete. once those two steps are done, then that's docking complete. >> that's right. and we're expecting to hear some words from everybody, a pretty monumental moment. for doug hurley, he's returning to where he last docked almost nine years ago on the very last space shuttle mission, now commanding the very first commercial spacecraft to deliver astronauts to the international space station. >> that's got to be cool for them. they've mentioned quite a few times that they're best friends, our favorite dads in space as we've been calling them. this has got to be really cool for them. it's got to be really cool for their families too watching this. >> it looks like we have another

quick handover. we'll get that video back shortly. we're about 75% complete already with that retraction. once that retraction is completed, we'll keep an eye out for the 12 ready-to-hook indicators. those 12 hooks will begin to engage and that will securely attach dragon to the international space station. >> right now the vehicle confirming that the soft capture system has deployed correctly and is fully retracted and then once the soft capture system is fully retracted, that will set up the vehicle to put in the hard capture pins. there's 12 of those around the docking ring and that's what creates that airtight seal between the dragon spacecraft and the international space station. the volume between which we refer to as the vestibule is

currently not pressurized. of course it was just exposed to the vacuum of space until literally minutes ago, about four minutes ago. so just waiting for the vehicle to get that. >> dragon spacex, ring retraction complete. docking system is holding for mcs reconfiguration. >> we see those ready-to-hook indicators lighting up green, so we should be just about to step into those 12 hooks beginning to engage to get that secure mate between dragon and the international docking adapter on the space station. >> wow, right now those two vehicles are flying together. they are attached to each other. >> they are. it's been just under 19 hours since we lifted off, actually about 18 hours, 42 minutes and 15 seconds. we promised about a 19-hour ride up to station and made it just a

few minutes before that. we are tracking them to still take about another ten minutes, but able to step through all of their burns about 16 minutes ahead of schedule and get us to where we are now. >> if you missed it, just a few moments ago, that initial docking coming at 7:16 pacific. there were 262 statute miles flying together over the northern border of china and mongolia. really exciting. we're just waiting for this docking complete to be confirmed. we're expecting to hear some words obviously from the crew on board and all the excited teams down here who are just waiting for this moment. and then it's time to start getting dragon integrated into the station. there will be annum bi umbilica will enable them to flow power.

>> mcs is configured. we're proceeding with hook drive-in. >> all right, and they did a quick -- so the motion control system on board station now back under those control gyros so handed over from the russian thrusters and dragon given the go to drive those hooks. >> and that is history being made. now, there might seem a contrast between what's going on in space and what's going on in america, but let me remind you that america was convulsing in unrest when the original moon landings happened in 1969. so maybe the lesson is that we can be divided on earth but we are united in space as human beings. anyway, next on "gps" i will talk to the pulitzer prize winning reporter nicole hannah jones about the history of violence and racism in america. when the world gets complicated,

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30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar ensure max protein. now available in twelve-count. stock up today! i think america must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots, and in the final analysis a riot is the language of the unheard. >> that was of course martin luther king jr. from a smeech call speech called the other america.

the words were spoken in 1967 but still ring true today. joining me is pulitzer prize winner nikole hannah-jones, a reporter for "the new york times" and the creator of the 1619 project. i want to ask you about the words of martin luther king but juxtaposed against the words of the mayor of atlanta who said stop rioting, stop burning businesses. 50% of the businesses in downtown atlanta are minority owned. how should we think about this tension of the riots and violence being used in what is clearly a just cause? >> i think what we're seeing is the manifestation of a network of inequalities that black americans face and have always faced. when we're framing these conversations, it's important to understand that we are talking about the descendants of people who were enslaved in this country for 250 years and had to

endure 100 years of legal apartheid and who have only had full citizenship rights for 50 years. we shouldn't be surprised that black americans are at the bottom of every social indicator and that we don't pay attention to that and so people are forcing america to see it. so i understand what the mayor is saying, but at the same time even in atlanta black people are attending -- large numbers of them -- failing schools. large numbers of people in the city of atlanta are still living in poverty, are still having high infant mortality rates. black people experience disadvantages no matter how many small businesses black people own in a particular city. >> you wrote i think on twitter something which i thought was very intriguing. you said let's not forget that even when people were protesting nonviolently as martin luther wing was or john lewis was, that

part of what they were doing was trying to expose the violence that the system, particularly the police were using, in a sense they were baiting the police to do what they often did which was use violence. >> yes. unfortunately in this country black people's rights have been contingent on convincing enough white americans that they actually deserve them, and the way that the civil rights movement had to do that -- you know, somehow we forget that white americans were tolerating racial apartheid for 90% of black citizens until the civil rights movement, and the only way that black americans were able to turn white americans to deciding this was no longer tolerable was to absorb white violence. when black people simply protested peacefully and they were not experiencing white violence, white americans were fine to turn a blind eye and they did that for decades. so i think it's a bit of a misnomer to call the civil rights movement a nonviolent

movement. certainly the protestors studied nonviolence as a tactic but they had to court white violence in order to get white people to have sympathy. and that to me is kind of the appalling contradiction. >> you write in that 1619 project and i think it was the opening essay, these very eloquent words where you said that black americans, african-americans, believed in the best of america even as they were exposed to the worst of america. what you meant was they held america to its highest ideals even when they were exposed to the most brutal variation from those ideals. do you think african-americans still believe in the best of america? >> i think it's very hard for black americans to believe in the best of this country, particularly after the election of barack obama leads to the election of a president that many consider to be a white

nationalist. but herein lies the rub. we are a 13% minority in a country literally founded on white supremacy. we have no choice but to believe that we can fight to make this country truer because if we don't believe that, then we just have to submit to our subjugation. i think black americans have always been in this position of being in a country that did not treat us as citizens but having no choice but to fight to try to make ideals that did not include us true. that's the role that we still play but i think these days it is very hard to believe in the best of this country. >> what advice would you give people? there are people i know who are, you know, who really feel and empathize with the pain and suffering that black americans have gone through and are going through but say this is ultimately going to help people like donald trump get re-elected. scenes of black people vrioting

is going to trigger a response among some whites, maybe many whites, and that leaves them very uneasy. what do you say to people who worry about that this, that there will be a kind of whitelash to these riots. >> there's a whitelash to black americans no matter what black americans do when black americans are demanding their rights. the time has passed that black people have to be held hostage to white fears about whether they're going to have their rights or not. prior to these riots, a third of all black american children live in poverty compared to -- excuse me, yes, a third compared to 12% of white americans. we spend 23 billion more dollars on schools that serve predominantly white students than black and latino students. black women are three times more likely to die of childbirth. we have twice the unemployment rate of white americans. these were the conditions of black americans before the riots and white people were willing to tolerate them as long as black

people quietly endured. honestly, the circumstances for black america are very difficult right now. they were difficult before the riots. they will be difficult after the riots. if people truly believe in justice, then being forced to confront what they have been able to ignore shouldn't turn them and if they can be that easily turned, they weren't really that interested in justice. >> if you were to predict what the effect of this politically would be, do you think it will strengthen the kind of racists out there or people like that? >> we as a nation elected donald trump and there weren't all of these riots so maybe, maybe not. i'm not going to try to predict politically what's going to happen. what i am going to say is that the lives of so many black americans were untenable prior to these priots and white

americans wanted the comfort of not being confronted with that but the circumstances that black americans live in are not palatable to black americans. people were saying that black people speaking up for their rights, demanding accountability prior to the riots were going to lead to trump's re-election. that holds black people hostage to the politics of white grievance and i think black people are not willing to do that. >> nikole hannah-jones, powerful words, thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps", from protests in america to protests in hong kong, china is clamping down on this nearby territory and that is exacerbating already sky high tensions between beijing and washington. that story when we come back. heading in a new direction. but when you're with fidelity, a partner who makes sure every step is clear, there's nothing to stop you from moving forward.

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when britain handed over hong kong to china in 1997 beijing agreed to treat it differently from the rest of china. the idea was called one country, two systems, and it assured that the island territory would be granted much more freedom and autonomy. china was accused of breaking that promise this week when china's national people's congress banned submission and subversion in hong kong. at the same time, it is weighing a very tough response against china. now, let me bring in two people who know hong kong intimately. chris patton oversaw that 1997 handover as the last british governor of hong kong. martin lee is a politician and

lawyer known as the father of hong kong's democracy movement. martin lee, let me ask you if i can to start, what do you think prompted beijing's decision? so far they have been somewhat careful about not doing something as overt as what they just did last week. >> i think they have admitted failure. in other words, they cannot continue with this policy which is to give hong kong people the right to rule hong kong with a high degree of autonomy. but six years ago china published a document in which it claimed that it has the central government of the chinese communist party has comprehensive jurisdiction over hong kong. that is completely reversal of the promise. what they are doing now is an implementation of that new

policy which is clearly a breach of the british declaration. they're waiting for the british government to do something about it. >> do you think, mr. lee, that they did it this last week, do you think it's partly because of the pandemic or is it partly because relations with the united states have gotten so sour that they decided what is the -- there's no danger of a penalty because we're already being penalized with tariffs. has something changed in the last few months? >> it could be both. cantonese have a saying, if you're sick, they'll kill you while you're sick. so it is possible. the cold war with the usa could be another reason. the third reason is that they are afraid of losing control of the legislative council in our next election just a few months away in september. so they want to make sure that

they could actual ly do it even if they cannot control the hong kong legislature. for all these reasons. >> chris patton, what do you think the international community should do about it? do you think britain has a particular role, washington and the world? go in that order. >> britain has a particular responsibility which is both legal and political and economic and above all moral. that's why i'm pleased -- i'm not a member of the government but that's why i'm pleased that the foreign secretary has worked with his colleagues in australia, canada and the united states to set out very clearly how appalling china's behavior has been, a complete breach of international treaty. i'm pleased that britain and i think the united states is trying to raise the issue at the united nations but has been blocked so far by china.

i know that the european union has put out a statement very similar to the one from the uk and others, and i think there's more we can and must do and we must try to put together all our colleagues and others around the world who are appalled by the fact that this regime is behaving so much worse than the predecesso predecessors. there's a real threat to the world order which china represents. getting back to the question you asked martin, i think that the chinese leadership are trying to take advantage of the fact that other countries are obsessed with the coronavirus, understandably, which of course was partly the responsibility of chinese mendacity and secrecy in the early stages when it was getting out of hand. they're trying to take advantage of that not only in hong kong but over the indian border and using muscle in the south china sea and making threats to taiwan. i think they see this as an

opportunity for doubling down on their usual bullying. i don't think that the rest of the world is going to go along like this. they're still talking about china as a state builder. chinese communism is a menace, a danger to democracy and a danger to a lot of its neighbors as well. >> the fundamental question, chris patton, that a lot of people are grappling with however in the west, i know in washington, and i'm sure elsewhere is the special status that is given to hong kong allows the people of hong kong to trade freely, to move capital back and forth freely, and to travel freely with the west with the rest of the world. by taking that special status away, you primarily hurt the people of hong kong. how should we think about this dilemma? >> that's a real worry. i know a lot about this subject because it was while i was

governor that we finally concluded the agreements to treat hong kong differently in the u.s./hong kong act. we also, while i was governor, concluded the extradition treaty between hong kong and the united states. the real dilemma we face is how we can ensure that china, chinese communism pays a price for what it's doing without hurting people in hong kong, and i think it's very difficult. there are issues similar to the magnitsky sanctions that you could use against individuals. i think there are things like technology transfer, but above all it's going to be very difficult to protect hong kong from the consequences of what chinese communism has done, and i don't want to see people in hong kong and businesses in hong kong hurt because of what china has done itself. it's a complicated thing. i think the americans, i hope, will be looking at how they can use a scalpel rather than a

sledge hammer on this issue. above all, we have to work together, particularly those of us who recognize that china is a threat, chinese communism is a threat, and this is a similar moment as i think "the new york times" pointed out recently in the 20th century history to breaching international treaties and endangering global order. >> stay with us, martin lee and chris patton. next, while protestors have been out in force in america, relatively few have taken to the streets in hong kong this week. why? i will ask martin lee that and more when we come back. if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. with roundup sure shot wand you don't need to stoop to their level. draw the line. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to pinpoint those pesky bedfellows. it lets you kill what's bad right down to the root, while comfortably guarding the good.

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we are back talking about hong kong with chris patton, the last british governor of the territory, and martin lee, hong kong's great lawyer and political leader. martin lee, how would you respond to the point that chris patton and i were talking about which is that if one were to strip away hong kong's special

status and the united states and other countries would treat it like china, that hurts the people and the businesses of hong kong, how does one think about holding china accountable without damaging the fate of the people of hong kong? >> well, it's not going to be easy, but when we need is a well thought out, sustainable policy in the interest of long-term future of hong kong, and making hong kong's interest of paramount important and not hurting hong kong. i think the easiest way at the moment is not to allow china to walk away from the treaty obligations under the british declaration. there's no reason why we should allow china to walk away. we should hold china with the agreement with britain which is to trust people and let the

people be masters of their own house as promised by giving us a high degree of autonomy and giving hong kong democracy as set out in the basic law under the constitution and not to interfere in hong kong's internal affairs which is also provided for in the constitution of the basic law. >> do you worry that if the protestors return to hong kong's streets that there's a possibility that the chinese will send in armed forces, that there will be a kind of forcible occupation of hong kong? >> i don't think they will need to deploy the people's liberation army if they put their armed policemen in our police force which we believe they're doing, that would be good enough. so they don't have to deploy the troops because our people are unarmed. so that is a dangerous thing. that is why i really appeal to young people not to resort to

violence because how can you win by using violence against communist china? our young people feel helpless and they don't know when to do and they are prepared to sacrifice many years of imprisonment or even their young lives for the future of hong kong. >> chris patton, martin lee talks about this careful, strategic policy that keeps hong kong safe while holding china accountable. it feels like the trump administration has kind of pursued something of the opposite. trump has lavishly praised china when he's wanted his trade deal. then he attacks it on coronavirus largely to deflect blame, i would argue, from his own performance. it seems that we're entering a period which reminds me of the 1950s of anti-communism where you're not going to get a strategic scalpel like policy. you're going to get something

very big and blunt. >> well, i couldn't begin to fathom out the doings of president trump's diplomacy so let me just give three particular examples of things i think we can do. first of all, we do have to work with allies again. this would be a great step forward, and i hope we can see it in relation to china because what has happened in hong kong is bad for the world as well as being bad for hong kong. secondly, i think that britain should take a lead with the united states and others in setting up an international contact group which will focus on what's happening in hong kong, keep an eye on what's happening in hong kong, helped, i hope, by the pressure for a u.n. international policy. i would like to underline what martin said about the fact that there will be demonstrations i'm sure in the future, not the least maybe this week about

tiananmen. but i very much hope that those young people and others won't allow themselves on the fringes to be provoked into violence by the sort of policing that we've seen in the last few months which suggests that sometimes the communist view is to squirt pepper spray into children's faces or fire tear gas at them. i very much hope that the thing can go forward with decency and dignity. hong kong is an extraordinary moderate community and it's taken chinese communists to produce this mayhem occasionally. >> chris patton, let me ask you about an awkward reality which people tell me about in mainland china which is that you talked about the change in china under xi which is undoubtedly true but there's also a rise in chinese nationalism and a lot of people think xi should be tough on hong kong which they regard as a very

privileged province that didn't have to go through the kind of turmoil that they did. is there a danger that xi will play to sort of domestic nationalism to stay tough on hong kong? >> yes, very much so, and he's doing that in relation to taiwan and india and around the south china sea and he's doing it in hong kong, and he's helped by the fact that during the demonstrations last year and the violence that accompanied them, most of the social media was dominated by nationalists and coverage suggests that this was anti-chinese and all about hong kong's sense of its own citizenship. that's something that the chinese regime simply doesn't understand. it doesn't understand but it feels threatened by somebody like martin because martin has been elected by them. fancy that. what a heroic act that would be in china. so i think this nationalism is being whipped up and i think

both the nationalism and what's happening around the world are signs of a sense of nervousness in the chinese leadership and rightly so. but i think the whipping up chinese nationalism requires from other countries, from liberal democracies and xi hates democracies. he said that from the beginning. i think it requires of us intelligence. it requires a certain verbal restraint with absolute firmness in standing up for what we believe in and recognizing that hong kong is a victim of what could happen to us all. >> that is an eloquent point to end on. martin lee, chris patton, lord patton, thank you very much. to update you on what we saw before, bob and doug, the crew of the spacex crew dragon are

about to enter the space station. i want to apologize to our viewers because we ran out of time because of that docking. i'll give my advice to graduates next week if you still want it. thanks for being part of my program. i will see you next week. i'm brian stelter and we are covering the coverage of twin calamities in america. cities are cleaning up after the worst weekend of civil unrest in america since the 1960s. when i say worst, i mean the most widely spread with acts of vandalism in at least three dozen cities since friday. protests in some cases have given way to riots, countless injuries among protestors and police officers, disturbing scenes of looting and fires, also some disturbing videos of police aggression at some of these protests. we have reporters and commentators standing by in minneapolis, philly, baltimore, san francisco and elsewhere. we're going