at's what happened in flint, michigan. >> that's exactly what sheriff chris swanson did. he walked with the protestors and he understood and he had a conversation with them. and you met them where they -- where they are. and that's what we need. that's what america needs. thank you for your service. i appreciate you joining us here on cnn. >> thank you. >> and thank you, everyone, for watching. our live coverage continues now with my colleague mr. chris cuomo. chris, that's how you do it, brother. >> well, i'll tell you what. they serve the community. they're supposed to be part of the community. the community is supposed to have the trust that the police are a phone call away for them. not a moment away from coming after them. and it takes time to build it and it's lost in a moment. so that sheriff was right. he was right to do what he did. but as i heard -- i forget who it was -- i think it was cedric said it on your show earlier tonight. it's important now, but it's important when there isn't a dead, black man in the street.

on every days, ordinary days, that's when trust is built. in a crisis, it's hard to build trust. but i think the discussions are important. especially, because my brother, we're dealing in a vacuum. ideally, the tone should be set at the top. and you and i should be talking about what leadership's doing, can leadership deliver on this? those are some big promises they made. will they be able to deliver? will the communities believe it? when will it happen? and we're not there because the promises we're hearing from the top are some of the scariest rhetoric we heard. >> i got one thing i want to ask you before i let you go. and -- and -- >> no, i'm letting you go. you're on my clock right now. >> before i take my butt home. jedi mind trick so i could get out of here. i was just going to say don't do such a good job, you had me up late and i'm exhausted. i'm up late and up early and, you know, haven't had a day off. so help a brother out. just don't do such a great job because you make me watch you when you -- >> you'll be home before i am. so let's switch it up and you get the coffee and the doughnuts tomorrow. okay?

>> i been eating way too many doughnuts on this quarantine. >> we've become the nation's policemen as it is in terms of watching everything that's going on. now, we're on the diet. >> we joke but today was a very critical point in america's -- in the history of america. and, you know, as i said earlier, i take ownership of those words. this has nothing to do with you. but i think, as i said, we are teetering on a dictatorship when you think about what the -- what the president did. he can't carry out, legally, according to the experts i've spoken to and the historians, what he promised or what he wanted to do. but, boy, it was certainly scary hearing him trying to do it, and pushing those peaceful protestors back, all so he can have a photo op. >> well, there's no question that he has designs on autocratic powers. he sees them in other world leaders, and he covets them. he is impressed by them, when they use, you know, despotic

power. kim jong un, he knows how to keep his people in control. no, you don't give it to them. you give both barrels of american freedom and that's why we fight around the world for people to have their own democracy. we do what you did tonight, don, which is giving people a chance to speak and to be heard. i love you. i'll see you soon. be safe. ladies and gentlemen, don lemon. i am chris cuomo. welcome to a special midnight edition of prime time. this is a remarkable time in our american history. the question is how will it be remembered? we're on the seventh night of racial justice protests. but there are also violent situations and terrible situations going on all over this country. and remember what we're in the middle of. we're in the middle of a pandemic. these bizarre scenes, where people are running around on the street, with no regard for law, no regard for decency, but they have masks on to protect against

covid. isn't that odd? and we have a president, who should be doing what leaders do in situations like this. leading from the front. he was hidden in a bunker, and then he didn't like the optics. so he staged one of the saddest public displays and stunts i've ever seen in presidential politics. he, literally, gave a speech where he paid sensitivity and mind to nothing that matters in the moment. he did nothing to make anything better. literally, everything he said will foment tension in this country. there was not a piece of positive reinforcement. and then, at the same time that he was saying he was an ally to peaceful protestors, he was having peaceful protestors removed from a place just a hundred -- few hundred yards from where he was. in rough fashion, by the way.

as rough as i've seen in washington, d.c. peaceful protestors. and why did he do it? for a photo op. he had them shooed away to go stand in front of a church holding a bible. i don't even know what it means. the church he stood in front of, st. john's episcopal, is known for its posture of social justice and service in the community on that. look at him. he's going to stand with a bible. as if it is, somehow, symbolic of him believing anything that's in it. as if, somehow, contact with the object would deliver some kind of love of mercy into him. or some type of divine mandate. what is he doing with the good book? holding it means nothing. holding its truths in your heart is what matters. that's what the place he's standing in front of is all about. maybe that's why he didn't go in.

now, the bishop from the diocese that -- that parish is in, that st. john's is in, it's boarded up but it is not damaged. she was outraged that trump used st. john's for a photo op. for a message that, she says, is antithetical to the teachings of jesus christ. now, although it should be our elected leaders, especially our president, the one person in this whole country who is supposed to take care of all of us. think about it. only one person gets that job. it was actually the floyd family, the family of the victim, who had to play that role today. uniting everybody in a call of peace. the people who have the most reason to be angry, to have their hearts filled with rage, they asked for calm. they asked for mercy. they asked for less demonstrations of anger. now, are they being heard?

no. another night of looting and arrests in many cities across america. particularly, new york city. and i got to tell you, i think a mistake was made here. the curfew was set at 11:00 p.m. it was at least three hours too late. the mayor, bill de blasio, welcome on the show. keeps saying no to invitations. keeps being invited just so you know. he's got the platform here if he wants to defend his actions. tomorrow night, there will also be a curfew. it will start at 8:00. good move because tonight, it started too late. who says so? eyes on the street. cnn's shimon prokupecz was there. starting at 11 was a bad move. >> you know, chris, i don't like to offer my opinion in, certainly, in these kinds of situations but i think you're absolutely right, based on what i have seen. really, just before 8:00, intense amount of looting. and what's really interesting is how organized, from what i can

see, how organized these groups are. they are young. they are young men. they are young women. and they are running around this city, as we speak, together. and for hours, you could hear the sirens and you can see the police cars going from scene to scene. from store to store. trying to chase them down. trying to stop them from looting a lot of the stores. they get away. but i'm also told that there have been several arrests. so i'm outside macy's here in herald square. obviously, everyone knows this store. it's been looted. it was boarded up. they took the wood off there, and they got inside. and actually, police got here and chased several of the looters inside. they made several arrests. but there are -- there's a store behind us with glass broken. we've seen so many stores, block by block, street by street here, from north manhattan -- upper manhattan to lower manhattan.

in union square, where we were earli earlier when i was last on with you, we saw looting there. told a best buy was looted. all sorts of different stores. what's also so sad in all of this, a lot of these stores have been closed now for months because of the pandemic. losing money. businesses that, you know, have been out of business now for months. not making any money. and, now, being looted. everything taken out and now they have to repair the stores, fix the glass. so i don't know. you know, i think, as you said, chris, i do think the curfew, in the end, is probably too late. you know, friends are asking me, well, what happens now? how do the police get this under control? i don't know. i think tomorrow, the mayor, as you said, is going to have to answer those questions. what more can they do? they brought in more officers. they doubled the number of officers that were going to be dealing with this today. and that didn't even seem to help. i don't know they got completely -- if they were completely caught off guard by this. just how well-organized these

protestors were -- i mean, these looters, i should say, were is really striking to me. they would go to stores. they would break the windows. you know, they would use hammers. they would run off. and then, others would come. and then, repeatedly come back. so we'll see what tomorrow, what the mayor will have to say. i think he's going to have to answer a lot of tough questions, chris. >> you know, i tell you, i was having one conversation with a young man who was involved in some of this ugly activity. and he was trying to run this misplaced righteousness that, you know, this is about trump and f trump and this and that. i said, no, no, no. what you're doing right now only makes his message stronger. he is trying to say that you are a problem. that you are something that needs to be dominated and eradicated and put in jail for ten years to send a message of harshness. that's what you're helping reinforce. you are reinforcing no resistance to trump. don't kid yourself. if you're going to be selfish

and do things and distract energy from a righteous cause, at least own what you're doing. shimon, be safe. you and the crew, let me know if there's anything we have to catch up with as the night continues. all right. now, let's go to jason carole in brooklyn. the barclay center there. this magnificent structure they put in there. home of the brooklyn nets has been a collection area and a starting point and an ending point for different situations and protests for the last couple of days. jason is there now walking with a group. what's the situation? >> you're absolutely right. we started at the barclay center several hours ago. and this is where the rest of this group is going to end up. at one point, chris, there were about a thousand folks who were out here. demonstrators, peacefully, marching through the streets of brooklyn throughout the night. now, we're down to just about a couple hundred, i would estimate from our vantage point. again, we're just now a little bit past -- an hour past that 11:00 curfew, and folks here are

still marching. still demonstrating. still protesting. now, i have to say, throughout all of this, for the past few hours, there have been a number of police patrol cars that have been following along. they've taken a nonaggressive stance towards this -- towards this group of people. allowing them to defy the curfew, but allowing them to peacefully demonstrate. now, i can only speak for the moment, obviously. so you -- you can't predict what's going to happen next. but, up until now, and we've been out here for several hours, this has been a peaceful demonstration, which is much different, obviously, than what we've seen with -- what we've seen happening in manhattan with some of the looting and the vandaling. have not seen that here tonight. not seeing that with this group here tonight. again, when speaking to some of the people out here, chris, it was really about the message. and, very early on, some of those speakers got up and said we don't want you vandalizing in our name. we don't want you looting in our name. what we want you to do in our

name is to speak about the george floyds of the world. to speak about police brutality. that's what we want to happen here, tonight. so, as we continue to march at this late hour towards the barclay center. we have a number of patrol cars behind us. again, allowing these demonstrators to keep doing what they're doing, at least for now. >> all right, jason. thank you very much. as always, stay in touch with what's going on. now, interesting point of conversation we're having in this country. people will look at this and then look at the ugliness. look, that's protests. yes, they're in violation of a curfew. but you have to see what is behind the actions that you are judging in realtime. okay. many of you say, oh, so you like when you see people being violent? of course, not. no, this works. there's blood that's going through this. nobody with blood going through their heart likes to see violence. likes to see anger and rage on display. wants to see property destroyed and looting. nobody wants to see that. but that can't be all you see.

understand? you have to ask why they're doing it. savages. sons of bitches. thugs. if that's what you want to see, we'll never get to a better place. i know the president reassured you on that level today. i know he made you feel it's okay to see these people as savages. and if they're white, then they're not savages. but they're these outside groups that the democrats are in control of. and they're trying to destroy him and destroy this country, and your second amendment rights. he always throws that in. out of context but on message. so what he is saying is absolutely the wrong way to create fewer situations like this. no question in my mind. the open question is what is the right way to restore order and to bring about real change? so we're not here, again. that is the question we'll take on right after this.

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bringing incendiary devices. you saw the two lawyers that are up on charges for throwing a mazel tov cocktail into a squad car that was full of officers. they had more mazel tov cocktails in their car. that's not protesting. there's nothing positive about that. it should be called out. but ignoring why the real protestors, who are the overwhelming majority of everything we see everywhere, why they're there. and not addressing that pain and that hurt and that pattern, that's gone on for generations, that's really wrong. and that guarantees we will be back here again because this won't be the last abuse of power. we both know that. so what is the right way to speak? what are the right things to address? what will make things better? i know that's a huge task, and there are like a hundred things. but we should be discussing it, don't you think? we shouldn't just be looking at pictures of the worst things every night, right?

so let's bring in angela rye and move the bar at least a little bit. hello, my friend, i have been enjoying your podcast from my home and the provocative discussions you've been having. and the questions you've been taking on during the pandemic. i think you are a big fan of useful conversation. we need it now because nobody wants to see the need for this, in this country, although you could argue this is the way things get changed. that, if people aren't outraged and on the street and demanding things and, you know, causing this type of consternation, we'd never have change in this country. but what is the way forward, angela? >> well, chris, i think our way forward involves a little bit more discomfort. the tough reality, for so many people, is that they have been crying out for so long. chris, i remember when trayvon martin was killed. and we found out that george zimmerman was not going to be found guilty.

that he was, in fact, acquitted. i remember us staying up all night. we had these no justice, no sleep, calls. and to be here, so many years later, in the exact same situation, not just for george floyd in minneapolis but, for breonna taylor in louisville, kentucky, and for ahmaud arbery in georgia. and for tony mcdade in tallahassee. for so many others, chris, who never went viral, and who don't have videos. this is the burden that we're carrying. and to compound all of that with what's happening with coronavirus, it is just maddening. and i am sitting here, in front of you, with, like, just a heaviness on, like, on my chest. i could feel the pressure all day. i was crying, and i would say for no reason but there are for so many reasons. there are thousands of reasons for my tears. and they're all people who i haven't met, but we're bound together by a common thing,

called injustice, that has been the very foundation of this country, for 400 years. and so, here we are, now, trying to figure out how we're going to get justice in a place that has never given us justice. we continue to hold out hope for a space that has never really honored that. if we're honest, chris, the biggest piece of legislation, the most -- the largest landmark legislation that has ever impacted black america is the 1964 civil rights act. we are years beyond that, and i wonder, really, how far we've come. sure, we celebrated barack obama in 2008. and, in 2012, when we elected, not once but, twice, the first black president. but this bigot in the white house now has now undone so much of that progress. so much of that progress. to the point where barack obama, himself, had to say today in his statement on medium, that protesting is the way to change. that -- that we have to demand

what we want from our elected officials. the folks who want our votes, we can make demands of them, and we should make demands of them. we have every right to hold them accountable. donald trump needs to be accountable for waste, fraud, and abuse, frankly, at this point. for the ways in which he is abusing military. for the ways in which he abuses his executive powers. and i really can't tell you what all of our options are. but what i can tell you is that we have to exercise every single one of them. that i am going to be out here with people who look like me, and the allies who want to stand with us, for some people, for the first time ever even though they've sat through so many other police killings. i'm going to be making demands. i'm going to be pushing forth agendas. i am going to be asking members of congress to introduce sweeping legislation because piecemeal by piecemeal bills won't be sufficient. >> but what do you say to people who say none of it will be sufficient? it's never going to happen. kamala harris. they want to pass laws about

uniform standards of use of force analysis for across the country. never happen. policing is a state-by-state issue. the republicans won't go for it. you don't have both houses. obama tried with his commission. had former commissioner ramsey on last night. was part of the commission on policing. he was like our report was all but thrown in the trash. and this is -- this is america. the majority doesn't embrace the problems of the minority. they will never change. why am i wrong? >> well, and i -- this is what i would tell you. you're not wrong, and that is the unfortunate reality. and, until i'm right, chris, this is the exact type of civil unrest that the country will not only continue to see but to engage in. dr. king said that riots are the -- are the -- is the voice of the unheard. it's the language of the unheard. so the reason for this outcry is because people are tired of being treated as invisible, as disposable, as voiceless, and as though they don't matter. we have been screaming black lives matter for several years. and, just now, people are

finally beginning to accept that as truth, and not as an argument. not as a damn argument. we are not saying that we're better than you. we're saying that we're equal to you. that the -- that the nightmare that our ancestors lived through, that we were three-fifths inferior is not true. we're asking people to summarily reject that. it has to be rejected in policy, too. and that is, i believe, the first frontier. we have to push for sweeping change because, if we don't, we will die. that is the reality. it's not about just an election. >> i have one other thing for you. i have, like, a hundred things. but i have one thing. i don't like the term ally. it, to me, speaks to a remoteness. i'm not your ally. i love you. you're -- you know, you're the tv family i choose. i have you on because i believe in you. i follow you because i believe in you. if somebody were to come after you, i'd be there for you. i'm not your ally. it's not out of convenience. we don't have a deal. you know, all we have, in this

country, is the bond of one to another. and i know it's not equal and you know it's not equal. but we're supposed to fight for that, together. i'm supposed to be fighting for that for you because that's what this country is about. that's all we have here. >> but, chris, you're supposed to. and the reality of it is, for too many, it has been a choice that they've ignored for decades. for centuries. family by family, it's been something that has been passively put off. and i don't know if the tipping point this time was that everybody was stuck at home, in quarantine for coronavirus and this was a face, a victim, someone who was suffocated. that they couldn't turn away from. i don't know if that's what it was. but what i know is, it's too late. and we have to take this moment to do something majorly radical to ensure that, for future generations, whether you call yourself an ally or not or stand or not, whatever you decide to

call yourself, that gap has to be bridged. because our survival, literally, depends on it. and so i appreciate your ally ship, i told you i've been crying all day. maybe i'm also really glad that you got over coronavirus and happy to see you back. but i think that the reality of it is, chris, it's going to take a lot. and it's going to stretch some people. it's going to stretch some implicit bias and some explicit bias. it's going to challenge the very foundation of white supremacy in this country but all of that has to be uprooted. and it is going to be painful. but it's time for folks to be accountable. >> it is. and it's -- it'll never change if white people don't make a change. it will never change. they have the power. power changes culture. power sets the tone. it's not going to be electeds. it has to be other people who insist on it as a mandate, like we saw with gay marriage. you saw private businesses saying, hey, you're not down with gay marriage, we're not going to support you in this state. we're not going to support you in this business because we got to be more than allies.

i'm not doing you a favor by caring about your equality. that's what this country is about. >> so what do you call it? if it's not an ally, you said it's tv family. what do you call it? >> well, for you and me. we're -- we're countrymen. this is america. we're americans. we fight for one another. it's all we got, in this country, is our connection with each other. >> but, chris, that is an ideal -- i think -- i think the fundamental challenge for me is that is an ideal that is so far out of reach for my people. it sounds really good. it has never been attained. it hasn't been attained in small instances, you know? microlevel. >> because people in power haven't made it their fight. that's what i'm saying is, look, am i going to understand what it's like to be a black man in america? no, i don't have to. i just have to understand that that's what happens to black men in america. and i have to decide that that's not what i want. that's a big reason i do the job. but until americans and the

majority see it as their problem because only they can fix it, we'll keep reliving these scenes, no matter how passionate the advocates are. no matter how good the arguments are. we could have a million angela ryes and as much of a blessing i'd see that as in my own eyes, we need a lot more than that. we can't do without you, but we need a lot more than that. the majority must make this problem their own. but, angela -- >> so what do you do? what do you do, chris? when somebody says, okay, i want to be an ally. i want to be more than an ally. you know that dismantling white supremacy is a part of that. that means accepting that white privilege is real. what's the first step to doing that to the people who are reaching out saying, what do we do, if they're in positions of power? >> let's embrace the 12 steps. first thing you got to do is recognize you got a problem. we're not even there yet. we got a president tonight, didn't even mention the problem, angela. did not mention the problem other than to say if you are out there demonstrating against the

problem and not, you know, on knees with your hands folded in front of your face, you are the problem. we have to acknowledge that it is a problem that is holding us back in this country. that it's limiting our resources that is our life's blood. we're not making the most of everything we have in this country. and if you don't do that, if you don't harness your diversity, meaning not just color but color, creed, and sex, if you're not harnessing them all, you are not going to be what you need to be in this country. it is literally existential for us. >> and i get that. >> you have to admit you have a problem. >> i want to know for you. like, you're -- you a're like deadset on tv family. i got your back. but what about the black person that you don't know? what's the thing that you're going to do with your position of power to make the road easier for that protestor, who you may have the least in common with? what about that person? >> i think my show has to be something that talks act this when there's not someone dead in the street and that's hard because people don't want to

watch. but you know what? i don't get watched that much anyway. so i don't really have that as a defense. you have to do it because it's the right thing to do. you can't just do it when somebody's dead. i know that sounds like, yeah, no kidding. i don't do it now. we do not do it now. i do not have pieces. and, look, i know my show and my team goes out of its way to fight these fights. that's why the show was created. but it's still not enough. and that's one thing that i can do, that i don't do now. and i will. that, i can control. that, i will do. angela, i got to jump. >> you know i'm going to hold you to that. >> good. you'll be a part of it. that's easy. good. you just said yes to coming on the show more. this is a win/win, as we call. thank you, angela. >> i appreciate you. you know that. and i'm so glad you're well. >> and i need the accountability. i know i can always trust where your criticism's coming from. it's always coming from a good place. not about agree/disagree. it's always about hearing it and i always will. be well. god bless. >> thank you. thank you, chris.

>> she happens to be right. i'm a big fan but she happens to be right. you have to not talk the talk. you have to figure it out. i know that a tale of two cities has been very resonant with a lot of people. but recognizing that we're a tale of two cities, well, now, what do you do about it? how do you build those bridges? it's trite but it's true. all right. now, we're going to check in, in minneapolis. very different kind of night tonight. you know, seven days since george floyd was killed. sara sidner has been set up at the scene that has become a sacred place there. there's trouble all around it. people are angry. but it's a little different there. sara, thank you for being patient while i was talking to angela but she was right to chase after me about what i want to do differently, myself, as a white guy, with a platform, in a position of power. if i'm going to say that it's up to the majority to fight fights for the minority, what am i going to do? fair question. >> but you're also an

italian-american, right, chris? >> yes. >> so you've got a long history, as well. and i'm -- i'm happy to contribute, if you need pieces, i'm happy to come out to the community to talk to the people that you want to -- you want to get on. i will say this. a very different night. we are in a different spot. we moved away from the area that really has been a sacred place. there hasn't been violence at all there. people have said that we are not going to dishonor this family, certainly not there in the neighborhood -- and the neighbors are certainly not letting that happen. the residents in that neighborhood, where george floyd lost his life. yesterday, the police were talking about finding incendiary materials and kpaaccelerants li water bottles filled with gasoline. today, it's a quiet scene. there was a curfew but there was a curfew yesterday. today, you are not seeing the kind of reaction, explosive anger. and i suspect that, in part, we know these things go in waves. people do get tired. they get disillusioned.

and they -- they realize that violence isn't the answer because it's not going to help you when you have to go to the store in two weeks from now and it's still closed because somebody decided to loot the store or break it open. but i think part of this is also, because we heard from terrance floyd today. and what did he say to protestors? he spoke directly to them. this is one of the brothers of george floyd. he showed up for the first time since his brother's death at the scene. he broke down, as he looked at the mural that was made for his brother. and saw all hundreds of flowers and messages to the family. and then, he went to the spot where his brother passed away and he kneeled. and the crowd kneeled with him. and he then spoke to the protestors, who were committing acts of violence. let's listen to what he said. >> i understand y'all upset.

so if i'm not over here wilding out. if i'm not over here blowing up stuff. if i'm not over here messing up my community, then what are y'all doing? what are y'all doing? y'all doing nothing! because that's not going to bring my brother back at all. >> and he told people to stop. and, instead, educate yourself and not just educate yourself in a general sense, but educate yourself about how to change the power structure. and he said that is to vote. he said it directly to the people that were there. and there were some folks that tried to push back, and he shut them down. and said don't do this in our family's name because his brother would have been upset to see what happened. he said we are a peaceful family. and we are a god-fearing family. and that was his message to all of those hundreds of people out

there. and i think a lot of people took that to heart. chris. >> it's very interesting if he had that kind of resonance because he certainly had the poignance in the power of the message. you have to listen to the victim's family. he is right. unless you represent a victim yourself, you have one in your own family, you have to defer to them. nobody has reason to be feeling pain more right now than those who are blood tied to george floyd. sara, thank you very much for the coverage and for the context, frankly. this is a story that's obvious on some levels. hard to understand, on others for a lot of people. so thank you, sara. i'll check back with you. you let me know as soon as you see something, hear something, we'll be right there. now, in terms of justice, defined as fearness under law, we know we're nowhere near it with the george floyd case, right? and this videotape is not a -- and also. it's not a comma in this case.

it is the case. without it, i don't think we'd be anywhere near where we are in terms of prospects for prosecution. charges, in this case. what will they mean for america? this one case. what will it be like when that case is over? where does philadelphia's -- this is a good question -- where does philadelphia's former top cop see things headed after this case, depending on how it comes out? next.

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curfews are spreading

throughout the country, night after night, because bad things are spreading throughout the country night after night. you have a lot of looting. you have violence. you have fired. let's bring in former philadelphia police commissioner charles ramsey about how this goes. it's good to see you again, commissioner. thank you, very much, for being with us, especially at this hour. so let me ask you something that people are going to think, well, no, let me go with something that's good in general. and then i got to ask you a question about the charges on this officer, in -- in minneapolis because i don't understand one of them. but, first, the importance of charges against the other three officers. and the meaning of the outcome of the case, in terms of change. >> i think it's going to be incredibly important. this case is, with the video, is just so brutal. in terms -- and graphic, when you look at it. that it makes it -- it's difficult to understand how you could not have a conviction.

now, we all know, been around long enough to know that you never know what a jury's going to do. and i would assume that they're probably going to go with a jury trial. but this is going to be one that, if it doesn't result in a conviction, especially for the officer who had his knee on mr. floyd's neck, then, that's going to really cause a total breakdown, i think, of -- of -- of what we see now. i mean, i think it's going to be even worse if that happens. as far as the other three goes, that might be a little more difficult. but, in my opinion, they're complicit, just like the chief said. i think they ought to be charge everything i've seen and read, is that at the point in time when they checked for a pulse, and then they stayed. and they -- the -- the officer continued the pressure on his neck for another 2 minutes and 53 seconds or so. i mean, they knew that this man was not breathing. they knew he possibly was in the process of dying. and yet, they failed to do anything at all.

i mean, to me, they are just as guilty as the individual who had his knee on his neck. i don't see the difference. >> couple short-answer questions. all right. one quick followup on that. if i drive the car and you rob the bank, i get stuck just as bad as you even if i never entered the bank. why doesnto a case against cops? >> first of all, i think in the long run, it will. but because police officers have unique authorities and duties, and they have responsibilities, under the law. you have to, first, show that they're acting outside of their duties and responsibilities, under the law. >> okay. >> and so, a lot of times, it's gray. it's not really black or white. this time, however, i do think it's more black and white. >> right. >> but in many cases, it's not and that's why it's difficult. >> i can't wait to hear from the officers, and i hope we do. why they didn't think to say anything about what chauvin was doing to mr. floyd. why they did nothing. the other short question i have is, why were they there so long?

you know, the job is to -- you know, even if it was over a fake $20 bill and you sent all these cops. you know, you got him out of the car in cuffs. why didn't they just put him in a cruiser and take him away? why did it take so long, this stop? >> i have no idea. they did walk him to the car. he was already handcuffed. he might've stiffened up when they got ready to put him in the cruiser. let me tell you. that's not unusual. and then, you talk to the person. and after a period of time, usually they get in. if not, you call for a wagon because it's easy toier to get person in a wagon than it is into an suv or a sedan. but, in any event, you don't do what they did. i mean, that makes absolutely no sense, at all. >> now, the charges. the charges against chauvin. now, you can always add charges, just for people at home. obviously, the commissioner knows. he's been teaching me about law enforcement for 15 years. but you can add charges. okay? that's why i don't buy the you don't want to arrest somebody until you have a case. you can arrest. you can rearrest.

it's not double jeopardy the way we think about it in the law. but let's put that to the side. the third-degree murder charge, in minnesota, is a funky statute, commissioner. i don't know if you had a chance to look at it. it's a depraved-mind murder. depraved-mind murder is a very weird thing in the law. first of all, not easy to get a conviction on it. not a good record in minnesota with it. i think they've only gotten like a dozen or so convictions on that statute. interestingly, mohammed nor, the police officer who shot a white woman, they got him on it. but i think if you reversed the colors, it would have been an interesting piece of jurisprudence. there, you had a brown cop and a white victim. i wonder if you switched it, how it would have gone with that statute and that prosecution. but it's a weird law. depraved-mind murder. basically, you have to show, in the law, that the person was thinking about something that was so eminently dangerous that, even though they didn't intend

to kill, that was the likely outcome. and it requires you to get deep into the head of the defendant. and, as we both know, that's very tricky to do in the law. you know, second-degree murder is just showing criminal negligence. you know, it makes me wonder about the charging here. that's a tricky statute. they don't win on it that often. >> well, it is a little tricky. but i -- i think they may have, also, been thinking about placing a charge on this individual, immediately, just to be able to hold him. get him into custody. they could always upgrade. i know the attorney general just got the case. it's very possible they may upgrade. but when you look at that video and, again, you can't get into a person's head necessarily. but when i look at that, that's one of those things, you almost know it when you see it. i mean, he's got his -- his knee on this guy's neck. he's got his hand in his pocket. and very nonchalantly, just killing this man. i mean, i don't know what the

heck he was thinking. but it sure wasn't i need to protect his life, which is a duty, a sworn obligation, of a police officer. is to protect life. that certainly was not on his mind. >> and he had people begging him to take his knee off the guy's neck, too. not the other cops but he had people there begging him. >> and the man saying he can't breathe. you know, just -- it reminds me of the eric gardener situation. and this is far worse than eric gardener. you had two other officers holding him down. he was already handcuffed. so you can't get in his mind. but this is one of those things that, you know, you may not really be able to define it clearly but you know it when you see it. i mean, when i see that, that's the first thing that comes to mind is that, you know, this guy just went off and just killed this man. i mean, it is truly some form of murder. i don't know which degree, but it is some form of murder. >> sir, it is always a pleasure. thank you, especially at this

hour. thank you to -- for helping me and the audience. i appreciate it. god bless and be well. >> thank you. >> let's take a quick break. when we come back, we will take you around a survey of the country and how it's going tonight in the wake of seven days since george floyd's death. next. if you have moderate to severe psoriasis, ...little things... ...can become your big moment. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop.

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curfews. they're not a suggestion. they give an extra set of legal responsibilities and ramifications to the cops, and some cities are cracking down on protesters who defy curfews. one of them, oakland, california, more than 40 people have been arrested for exactly that. police and protesters clashing at one point. tear gas used in response to rocks and bottles being thrown. cnn's dan simon joins me now. what was the state of play like? how did it finish? >> reporter: hi, chris, we just saw the last of more than 40 protesters who were detained, who were arrested, after viting the curfew. obviously, oakland is serious about this, and they're serious

about it because this city, downtown oakland, has seen an incredible amount of looting over the past few days. if you look through downtown, pretty much every building you see has the wood boards and they're trying to protect their property. so much has been destroyed. so much has been damaged. so oakland, they established this curfew today. this was the first night for it. we did have more than 15,000 people, chris, take to the streets of oakland, a lot of young people. there was a rally at a high school. it was a very peaceful protest. everybody was happy with how that went. and then the call came out to disburse. a lot of people stayed. some bottles and rocks were thrown at police. then they moved in and boxed these protesters in and then they just decided they were going to arrest them. chris? >> what did that mean, now, in terms of going forward? curfew stays in place, are you starting to see any pattern, and familiar faces among the protests?

can you put any meat on the bones of this suggestion about outside agitating groups? >> reporter: well, i think this curfew is going to stay in place for the next few days. clearly, it's working because we did not see the vandalism tonight in downtown oakland. clearly, what oakland is trying to do is they're trying to thwart the vandalism, and that's why this curfew is in place. it seems to have worked tonight. we have not seen the vandalism tonight, chris. in terms of what we're seeing though, most of the, as we've alluded to, this repeatedly, during the day, these protests are incredibly peaceful, chris, and today, with more than 15,000 people taking to the streets in oakland, it was quite a sight to see, to see a lot of teenagers, who participated in this protest, and that is really what officials wanted to stress

today, at least the organizers who put these protests on. they said, look, look at the young faces. look at the civic activism that we're seeing in oakland. look at the activism we're seeing in san francisco. so that is really what they wanted us to take away today, the organizers. and hopefully, that is the message that hopefully carries through, chris. >> thank you very much. stay safe, you and the team. appreciate it. be well. we will have more from the ground in new york city. where there has been widespread looting. the curfew there was at 11:00 p.m. it should have been a few hours earlier. we will show you why next. ♪ limu emu & doug [ siren ] give me your hand! i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! only pay for what you need.

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