this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. we'll start today's show with the problem with american policing. george floyd, philando castile, michael brown, breonna taylor, all african-american, all dead at the hands of police. why does the story never seem to change? i will talk to the former secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson. also, bogota, toronto, london, paris, and down under in auckland.

cities around the world have come out to protest the death of george floyd. how did the american angle go global? and before the protests there was the pandemic, and covid is killing african americans disproportionately. harvard's david williams explains why. but first, here's my take. i've not been one to argue that the united states under president trump is on the verge of turning into a tyranny. but left to his own devices, president trump would act little to the law or constitution. at present he's shown a willingness to shutdown investigations into his conduct, offer pardons to those the whose law breaking he approves of, punish media organizations and

social media platforms that, in his mind, are biased against him. even many of his supporters would privately say, we need not worry about trump because his excesses are always checked. but the american system of checks and balances does not work through magic. it needs its other leaders. judges generals, above all politicians to speak out and act when they see blatant abuses of power. some have done so. most recently senior military leaders. but one gaping hole remains. that is the one inside the president's own party. on monday evening in lafayette square in the shadow of the white house, police in riot gear descended upon a peaceful protest, which is explicitly protected in the constitution, and disbanded the demonstration using force and weaponry, including pepper balls, smoke

canisters and rubber bullets. the protesters were not violating a curfew or using acts of violence. the police used brute force on law-abiding citizens so the president could stage a photo op, holding a bible in front of a church. when asked to comment on this dangerous use of governmental authority which flashed across every news channel and we shall site in the world, the president's allies had to to say. snor john kennedy wasn't there because he wasn't there, unquote. one wonders whether he will comment on world events at which he is physically present. several senators, bill johnson, mike lee, demurred because they didn't see it, in johnson's words. senators rob portman and mike inslee said they were late for "lurch." a few republican senators did break with the president, but others went out of their way to defend him. ted cruz who used to describe trump as utterly a moral, and a

pathological liar said the only abuse of power was by the protesters themselves. in a brilliant essay in the atlantic, the historic and applebaum said it is quite common. dissent is rare. she mentions the masterpiece "the captive mind" which describes how collaboration provides a relief. it means no more struggle with your ideals, no more internal turmoil. once the collaborator has come to terms with his decision she wrote, he eats with relish, his movements take on vigor. his color returns. he sits down and writes a positive article, marveling at the ease with which he writes it. she could well have been describing lindsey graham who in 2015 said this about trump. >> he's a race-baiting, xenophobic religious bigot. >> then in 2018 he announced on the view with a hearty chuckle

that he no longer believed any of that. applebaum noticed one of the few writers acknowledge the pleasure of conformity. the way it solves so many personal professional dilemmas. he starts a small example kaze after i presidency. dys after the inauguration, he insists the crowds were larger than any before though the evidence clearly contradicted him. responding to trump speak, his press secretary then lied publicly and the park service altered photographs of the events. applebaum compares this action to the kinds of propaganda posters that the soviet union routinely put out, often about trivial matters which they knew their citizens would not believe. the point of the posters, she writes, was not to convince people of a falsehood. the point was to demonstrate the party's power to proclaim and

promulgate a falsehood. sometimes the point isn't to make people believe a lie. it is to make people fear the liar. we can see how this process has worked in the trump presidency. it started with the small matter of the inauguration photographs but kept on going. he then made bogus claims he won the popular vote because millions of people voted illegally, that china pays for his tariffs. alabama was at risk from hurricane dorian, that windmills cause cancer and he did not pressure the ukrainian president to investigate joe biden. as president trump has lied or misled almost 20,000 times by "the washington post" count. and republicans have repeated those lies at first hesitantly, but increasingly with a lightness of heart. marveling the ease with which they justify their acquiescence.

much blame will lie with these republican leaders, donald trump's cheerful collaborateers. go to cnn da.fareed for a link my "washington post" column. and let's get started. let me bring in the former secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson, to talk about all of this. jeh johnson, let me begin by asking you -- thanking you for coming on, and begin by asking you, we've all heard the criticisms of president trump. if you were asked, if he were to summon you to the oval office and ask you what he should do, what advice would you give him or really any president? what can presidential leadership do at a moment like this? >> fareed, thank you for having me on. fareed, in my lifetime, i think the finest example of presidential leadership was

march 1965 when in the wake of bloody sunday, linden johnson, a white southern eras president, went to a joint session of congress and proclaimed, we shall overcome. and literally embraced the words of the civil rights movement. i would advise a president in office now to do the same. i believe there would be an almost exact parallel in history if our president went to the oval office, any other national grievance that many americans see and believe, black lives matter. for reasons you and i can debate for another hour, this president, donald trump, is unable or unwilling to do that. he started a point or national leadership in this circumstance is to acknowledge the grievance and acknowledge the validity of the grievance. there are more specific

solutions to policing in america that i believe need to be addressed state by state, stidham by city, but it has to start with national leadership recognizing the grievance and encouraging all other americans to do so. >> you know, one of the things i think that fuels some of the frustration is a sense that while this president has not, previous presidents have acknowledged his grievances. of course, most prominently, your president, the person under whom you served, barack obama. i think people feel at the level of washington, at the level of national leadership, people seem to say, yes, there's a problem. you had two black attorney generals, a black secretary of homeland security, yourself. somehow the day to day experience of an african-american when dealing with a cop, a prosecutor, a judge, a jailer doesn't seem to change >> well, i think your question

answers much of itself. in 2008, when barack obama was elected, we all believed this was a moment in which we had made a major step toward a more corporate union, and we did. the reality, however, is that no president in eight years or no secretary of homeland security who is black in three years or an a.g. in eight years can eradicate from every police department across this nation those with a racist heart and who exhibit this type of deprachlt that we saw in minneapolis. this is a continuum of an effort over multiple administrations. this administration, unfortunately, seems to want to take us several steps backward. >> when you look at this issue, you headed the agency that has the largest number of federal law enforcement officers.

would you accept the argument or the criticism that law enforcement in america has a systemic racism or systemic bias within it? >> fareed, i think it depends upon how you define the question, how you define the term. define broadly enough, one could say there is systemic racism across every institution in america, depending on how you define the term. the way i look at the problem, not so much a matt i of training, but the people we are revuting to the law enforcement. there is no training that could remove from the heart of this police officer who snuffed out george floyd's life the level of depravity the racist attitude we saw in the streets of minneapolis. we need to take a hard look at whether we are recruiting people

who want to protect and serve, or we want to recruit people who are simply the neighborhood bully or the neighborhood badass. i think that's where the problem lies, along with reminding our nation's law enforcement that in some circumstances you have to de-escalate a situation, and not simply escalate the rising tensions that exist. police officers, in my view, need to be encouraged every once in a while to use common sense, and remind themselves, okay, i have a choke hold on this individual, but what brought me to this moment was a counterfeit $20 bill. so what exactly am i doing here? is it really worth it? i used to say this all the time to officers in i.c.e., enforcement and removal operations, that one incident has the ability to undermine your entire mission in a community in which you operate. >> let me ask you, jay, how do

you think about this personally? and i want to read to you a quote from your grandfather, a very distinguished black sociologist who became the president of fisk university. and in it he says, he's writing in '56 when he was still under jim crow in the south. "it's expected that negro southerners as a result of our limited status in the racial system, would be bitter or hostile. bitterness grows out of hopelessness and there is no hopelessness in this situation. he goes on to say faith is the ultimate strength of the democratic philosophy and code of the nation. your generation and your grandfather's generation were too hopeful and not angry enough and there should have been more anger and despair and desperation. >> fareed, i quote the words of

dr. charles s. johnson all the time, and i believe that to be true today in 2020. you ask me how i feel about the current situation personally. as a black man, of course, i am outraged at the murder of the hands of our nation's law enforcement of another black man. i think the better and more challenging question, however, is how do all the rest of us in this country feel. how does the soccer mom in fairfield county, connecticut, or the cattle rancher in north dakota or lindsey graham in south carolina feel about this outrage. minneapolis is not a black problem, it is an american problem. equality before the law is as american as the flag. and so we will have change when all americans come to realize that this is a problem, and that black lives do matter. and so i take to heart my grandfather's words and i continue to believe in them as representative of the character and fiber of our nation.

>> jeh johnson, pleasure and honor to have you on, sir. >> thank you, fareed. >> next on gps, the protests against the death of george floyd have gone global. how did that happen?

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it isn't just american cities that are protesting the death of george floyd. it's london. paris. auckland. and perth. cape town. nairobi. rio, and buenos aires. how did the american angle go global? joining me now are ben judah and hopefully nasreen will join me shortly. they are both journalists and

authors. ben, when you look at this, how do you square it with the idea of what we've been hearing about, which is the sort of decline of american power? has america declined but somehow yet has the power to inspire? >> it is very important to remember that a political empire and a cultural empire are not the same thing, and they've never been the same thing historically. indeed, we look back at the decline of the roman empire, political decline sets in the roman empire a good 200 years before the eventual elipse of dominance roman culture. one would say roman culture is with us to this day. what's very interesting to me right now is as the face of the american political empire, which is very much in crisis, the old ideological west, is this caricature of white america, the

face of american cultural power, resonating around the world is the face of black america. >> that's fascinating. when you say it's the face of the cultural empire, you're thinking social media, instagram, all that kind of thing as having sort of inspired or facilitated these protests. >> i think the key thing to remember is that this is a social media phenomenon. we live in an age of social media politics. we live in an age where politics has been dominated in a lot of ways over the last 15 years by sudden leading social media protests from egypt to russia to ukraine to france. and instagram as a platform is dominated by america, its charisma. black american artists and

celebrities, which millions of people around the world look up to. simply look at britain, france and germany. these are all countries with roughly or just over 20 million active instagram users. they've been exposed from the beginning to the protests and been inspired by what they see now. >> nasreen malek, you are joining us from cairo. welcome. how much of this is an anti-donald trump protest or is that reading too much into it? does trump figure in these protests around the world? >> i think he does figure, but only figures as a response, as opposed to a trigger. there is kind of two stages to the current way the protest. one was a spontaneous one that has no relation to trump or the administration or, indeed, the sort of awakening of far-right energy in the u.s. at the moment. but i think the response of donald trump and his

administration and the security in the police has poured oil on the flaim and has retriggered a much more intense reaction. there is a trump angle, but it it wasn't what triggered the protests in the first place. >> ben, is there a common element to these protests? you know, are they about floyd, about racism in general? how would you describe it? because it feels like a moment like the '60s, where suddenly these protests are erupting all over the world. >> over the last five years we've seen a rise in far-right nationalism across many of the countries where protests are taking place. in many ways there's been a contessa cross the kind of greater western world, between national populists and between post nationalists cutting through our cunanan tour. then we look at france where there would be large protests. this is a country where recent polling is around 40%.

if we look at germany, there's been a long run of polling the last few years of the afd far-right party. in the u.k. there are protesters, their voice hasn't been heard in the country for brexit. so i think there is a common awakening and a desire to stand up amongst millennials, gen z. it may well oppress t. >> you're coming to us from cairo. i'm interested what that region, to the best you can sense it, the response s. you've had these extraordinary protests the arab spring that turned into an arab winter with civil war chaos and the return of dictatorship in many countries. is there still hope there? >> well, there are two parts to the answer.

one is the fate and treatment of black people in the middle east of africa is really poor. any solidarity to this part of the world with african americans is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. there's arab black racism particularly subsahara african in north africa. the second part is i think the arab springs experience, what ben was saying earlier about the sort of potential of social media to bring people together and be a revolutionary force, i think it's a solitary tale as to how we can get carried away about youth and tech flnology a globalization. they're going to sleep away the old order, it all happens if the old order comes back and we get a deictatorship redux. we need to be a little bit careful in over investing in the

promise of social media and youth and technology. the establishment is far more powerful than all these things put together. >> fascinating conversation. thank you for coming. next on gps, some in law enforcement themselves admit it. american policing today has serious flaws. what exactly is the problem, and is there a solution? i'll talk to charlotte jawan who covers policing for "the new york times." will deliver unprecedented reach and reliability, and the highest capacity in history. with more coverage and more bandwidth to keep your employees connected, you will get the largest and most reliable network at an unbeatable price. t-mobile for business.

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wonder what is at the root of the problem with policing in this country. my next guest has written extensively on the issue. a national reporter for "the new york times," welcome. i wanted to start by noting some of your reporting in which you point out that derek chauvin, the officer who killed george floyd, had 17 complaints about him, but had received only two reprimands, official reprimands and one verbal one. i read somewhere else that when police officers are accused of this kind of misconduct and found guilty, only 40% of the time or 45% of the time do they actually get dismissed because there is always an appeals process. so can you just explain to us quickly what are the protections that make it so hard to go after the police for misconduct. >> there are so many protections in place for police. a lot of them are civil service

protections. for example, these officers got fired immediately, but they have a chance to appeal that decision, and so that 46% figure you're talking about is actually the number of offer certificaic fired who were later reinstated through the appeals process. so that's one thing. a lot of times these complaints are investigated by the police in an internal affairs division within the department. so it's not a fully independent review. when you try to see independent review put in place in the form of civilian review boards, you often find great frustration from the people appointed to those boards that their recommendations have no teeth that they're ignored, and they don't have a lot of power to police the police. so those are a few of the things that are in place that keep police from being held accountable on misconduct. >> we also hear a lot about

police unions which are growing at a time when most unions are shrinking. explain how that works. >> the unions have a hand in all of these protections, when you think about it, because there are job is to negotiate contract provisions, and that includes protections like appeal, like rules on when and how soon officers can be interviewed after something happens. they give money to prosecutors who are elected so they have some power there. they have power in the statehouse for laws like the in new york that protects police from misconduct, shields conduct from public view. so the unions are quite often fomenting conflict between the rank and file and the leadership. that's kind 6 what they live on. and then often great obstacles to perform, all types of

perform. you heard the police union officer said he's going to try to get those officers jobs back. >> police respond with more force. i think a lot of people watch these videos where the police seem to be dealing with peaceful protesters, using an extraordinary amount of force. and i'm always struck by this when there is this great onus on the protesters that they must always be peaceful and nonviolent, with which i agree, but the police in response to those peaceful nonviolent protesters seem to use what appears on the video unnecessary gratuitous excessive use of force. >> that's right. and i think this is one of those deja vu moments that is happening here because not only are we seeing another black man die, saying "i can't breathe," but after the ferguson protests,

the federal government reviewed the response and said the police there unnecessarily upped the ante, escalated the violence, and kind of created some of the unrest themselves. so we know this. we already have learned this lesson and yet you still see the police responding with the cops in riot gear and their batons. and you see the individual scenes play out of conflict between officers and residents that are very hard to watch. and i do think that it's important to point out that mass crowd control and mass demonstrations are one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult situation that police departments have to deal with. they have to calibrate how much force and what type of response is needed and crowds are very unpredictable. so this is not an easy situation, but we are seeing

that lessons learned been sticking. are not sticking. >> add to it there are 18,000 police departments in the country that would have to reform, you know, simultaneously almost. a pleasure to have you on. i really enjoyed your reporting. thank you. next on gps, before the unrest over the death of george floyd, the coronavirus was taking up all of the headlines and our attention. why that crisis, the pandemic, disproportionately affects african americans, too, when we come back. y memory supplements neuriva has clinically proven ingredients that fuel 5 indicators of brain performance. memory, focus, accuracy, learning, and concentration. try neuriva for 30 days and see the difference.

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today's nationwide numbers show great disproportionality. american, african americans account for 23% of all covid deaths in the united states even though they makeup just 13% of the population. that means their death rate is double what it might be. the question is why. my next guest, david williams, has the answers. he is a professor of public health at harvard. welcome, david. so, explain simply what is it that is producing this disproportionate death rate for african americans? >> thank you. great question, and is' good to be with you here today. i think the important point to remember is a pattern we see with covid in african americans, we've seen for more than 100 years for every major leading cause of death in the united states. so it's true for heart disease. it's true for diabetes. it's true for instant mortality, it's true for hypertension. across the board we see this pattern, so it's not a new

pattern. it's just that covid-19 has shown a bright light on a pattern that has existed for a long time and we have not done as much as we could to make a difference. what drives it? virtually every country of the world, the strongest predictors of variations in health are income and education. african americans have markedly lower levels of income than whites. the latest data from the census bureau shows every income white house holds received, black houses receive 59 cents, latinos 79 cents. the data is identical to the black and white gap income in 1978. you heard me correct. i didn't misspeak. i said 1979. the peak years from the gaines of the antipoverty policies of '60s and '70s. most of my students think we have made a lot more progress on closing the economic gaps in the

united states. and as bad as the income data show, they understate the extent of racial differences in economic circumstances because income captures wages. the flow of resources into the household. wealth captures our assets, our economic reserves. and for every dollar of wealth that white households have, black households have ten pennies and latino households have 12 pennies. >> you said in america your zip code is a better predictor of your health than your genetic code because the neighborhoods actually -- and their health and wealth matter a great deal. that's correct. i'm not the only one who says that. most public health experts in public health say that. dwr do they say that? where you live in these united states, for most people

determines where you go to school, determines your preparation for higher education, determines 'access to good jobs later in life, where you live determines the quality of neighborhood and housing condition, determines the extent of exposure to chemical toxic substances. determines what is easy to exercise in your neighborhood or a place to get fresh fruits and vegetables. so most of the factors that drive health are powerfully patterned by place. in many metropolitan areas in the united states, there is as much as a 20 to 25 year gap in life expectancy from one neighborhood to another that's just a few miles away. >> when we think of the kind of events the last few weeks and you think about the life of, say, young african-american men in their encounters with law enforcement, dealing with the kind of inequities you're describing, you have done research that actually can

almost quantify the level of stress that this kind of discrimination or inequity causes and then how that stress impacts one's health. >> that's correct. and i'll talk about three kinds of work that i have done. relevant to the current conversation, i and a colleague published a paper two years ago where we looked at every police killing of african americans and whites in the united states. and over a three-year window. and then we looked at the mental health of every population of the united states. we linked these two databases together. we were able to show that an unarmed african-american led to worse mental health and the entire population in the state in which it occurred for the

next three months. so we are showing the long-term impact and the community-level impact on these. and importantly it wasn't every police killing that did that. it was only police killings of unarmed black people that led to that outcome. it's the perception that that action was unjustified and unfair that seem to be the aspect of it that drove these worsened mental health in the population. more broadly i've done work on developing measures to capture the stress. these police killings, there are 60 killings of an unarmed black male on average each year. there are other things that affect african americans in their day to day life. let me tell but one of the measures. it's called the everyday discrimination scale. it captures where people are treated with less courtesy than others. poor service than others at

restaurants. people act as if you're not smart, they act as if they are afraid of you on a day-to-day basis. what does research show? people who score high on everyday discrimination have worse physical health, worse mental health. for example, pregnant women who report discrimination during pregnancy give lower birth weight. others have higher levels of blood pressure, higher levels of inflammation, higher clinical heart disease. one study finds higher levels of everyday discrimination predicts premature mortality. the cumulation of these negative effects is literally killing people prematurely. >> and i have to let you go at that, on that, david williams. totally fascinating discussion and fascinating research. thank you, sir. >> thank you so very much. >> next on gps, you will hear the great insights into the

roots of the black struggle in america from martin luther king. wise words from more than 50 years ago.

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don't cut our students' future. can attack anywhere. get fast relief here with primatene mist. available over the counter for mild ashtma. primatene mist. breathe easy again. my book of the week is bryan stevenson's "just mercy." we had bryan on last weekend and i recommended this before but if you want to read just one book to help you think about the events of the past few weeks, this is the one i would recommend. it documents the unfairness of the american criminal justice system, but it does so with extraordinary balance and empathy and even grace. it's a wonderfully written book. for the "last look," i wanted to address a question that many people have asked me one way or another, especially people who live outside the united states. the question is simple -- why is it that blacks seem to have such difficulty moving ahead in america? don't other ethnic groups also

face discrimination? don't they also have to deal with poverty and exclusion? this came to mind recently when i watched a short clip of martin luther king being asked that very question during a television interview in 1967. in two minutes, he brilliantly and eloquently answered the question. he explained that blacks are unique in being the only ethnic group that was brought to america involuntarily in chains. they labored as slaves until finally in 1865 they were freed. even then while a massive number of europeans were coming into the country and receiving land in the midwest and west, african-american slaves, despite having worked for 250 years in america, without ever being paid, received little to help them get on their feet. i would add to this, the willful destruction of the black family through much of american history. because slaves were not treated as human beings, but property,

the law did not recognize their marriages nor even their rights over their children. families were routinely and forcibly broken up. after 250 years of slavery came 100 years of state-sponsored discrimination and then civil rights. but soon began what michelle alexander has called the new jim crow, a system of policing and mass incarceration that has made it so that a black man in america has a 1 in 4 chance of being incarcerated in his lifetime, according to the sentencing project estimates. martin luther king also but an emphasis on the psychological damage done. to maintain slavery and segregation there had to be an ideology of white supremacy, one that left lasting effects on both blacks and whites. here is king summing up his points. >> emancipation for the negro was really freedom to hunger, freedom to the winds and rains of heaven, it was freedom without food to eat or land to cultivate.

therefore, it was freedom and famine at the same time. when white americans tell the negro to lift himself by his own bootstraps, they don't look over the legacy of slavery and segregation. i believe we ought to do all we can and seek to lift ourselves by our own bootstraps, but it's a cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps. many negros by the thousands and millions have been left bootless as a result of all of these years of oppression and as a result of a society that deliberately made his color a stigma and something worthless and degrading. >> and that is why the situation for blacks in america is different. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. and fees are included. n t-mos why can't all my bills be like this? i don't know mama. umph! with t-mobile, taxes and fees are included.

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hello, everyone. thank you so much for joining me this sun. i'm fredericka whitfield. now those protests have extended around the world, even more are taking place today demanding an end to systemic racism and police brutality following the death of george floyd. saturday washington, d.c. saw its largest crowds since the gh gh demonstrations began. we are seeing powerful images of defiance. washington mayor and john lewis standing shoulder to