this is "gps," the goebl public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. on today's show, american exceptionalism is working in police shootings. police in the united states fatally shot about 1,000 people in 2018. that is more than 20 times the rate in germany, and almost 70 times the rate in the united kingdom. why? also, italy and spain have

had tough times with covid. almost a quarter of a million cases each. but across the ioc from italy, greece has had only 3,000 cases. what did that southern european nation do right? i will talk to the prime minister. finally, it's graduation season on the internet, at least. i'll give grads my thoughts and share some of the smartest i've seen. but first, here's my take -- in much of the developed world the covid curve has flattened. but this obscures a tragic reality. the second phase of the crisis has begun as the virus is spreading to the developing world. 11 of the top 12 countries with the largest number of new confirmed infections are now

from emerging economies led by brazil, india, pakistan and chile. the resulting devastation will likely reverse years, if not decades of economic progress. for a while it appeared that the developing world was being spared the worst of the pandemic. according to a brookings report, as of april 30th, with 84% of the world's population, low income and middle income countries were just home to 14% of the world's known covid-19 deaths. this can be explained in part by lack of testing and failure to attribute deaths to covid-19, but there may be other factors. nursing homes, which have accounted for a large share of deaths in wealthy countries are uncommon in the developing world so the elderly are not crustered together. heat may have some affect in reducing the spread of the virus. another possibility, the developing world was spared the disease in the early months because it was had less connected by travel and trade to the initial hot spots, which were china and europe.

but over the last month, the coronavirus has moved slowly but steadily across south asia and latin america. brazil now has about 1,000 recorded deaths a day and the cases are rising exponentially. africa has not seen a large spike in confirmed cases, apart from south africa, but anecdotal evidence suggests the disease is spreading. "the wall street journal" recent bely reported that in the northern nigerian city gravediggers were running out of space and were burying between existing graves or putting multiple bodies in a single grave. if the curves do not start flattening, the damage will be worse than anything we've seen in the west. the population density and unsanitary conditions make the rapid spread of the disease seem inevitable. in mumbai, one slum houses about a million people and has a population density nearly 30 times that of new york city.

africa's largest city, lagos, has had relatively few infections so far yet two-thirds of ininhabitants live in slums, many taking crowded buses to work, means it's likely only a matter of time before the numbers rise. hospital facilities in lower income countries are sparse. in bangladesh will are eight hospital beds for 10,000 people, an eighth as much as the european union. there are fewer than 2,000 ventilators across 41 african countries, compared to 170,000 in the u.s. in many of these countries, large segments of the population make just enough each day to feed themselves and their families, so governments face a deadly dilemma. if you shut down the economy, people will starve. if you keep it open, the virus will spread. and then there is phase three of the pandemic, the death crisis, which will hit the developing

world very hard. in the u.s., europe, japan and china, the economic damage is brutal, but it will be ee meal rated by massive government spending. these countries, america above all, can borrow trillions as low interest rates with relative ease. that is not the case for poor countries that are already deeply indebted. they have to take out loans in dollars, which they must pay back in their own rapidly depreciating currencies. down the line they face the real positive sprekt of hyperdeflation or default. over the last few decades as global trade accelerated, the developing world grew faster than rich countries and standards of living rose. even after the global financial crisis, developing countries recovered faster than the rich ones did. they were the less exposed to the complex financial products and they weathered the downturn relatively well. the result has been one of the great good news stories of our

time. a massive reduction in extreme poverty. from 1990 to 2010 the share of humanity living on less than $1.25 a day was cut in half. this u.n. millennium goal was actually achieved five years ahead of schedule. but now the work of decades is being undone in months. various studies estimate that somewhere between 100 to 400 million people will be pushed back into extreme poverty. in this, the most crucial measure of human progress, we are moving backwards and fast. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my washington post column. let's get started. for the west, italy was the canary in the coal mine of covid. it was the first western nation to have an out-of-control

outbreak and the whole boot ended up being locked down. but another southern european country had a very different experience. while italy is approaching 250,000 cases, greece, a poorer country, has only had 3,000. how did that happen? joining me now from santorini is the prime minister, kyriakos mitsotakis. let me ask you about those case numbers to begin with. how did you do it? you know, do you think you got lucky? what explains -- because you really -- very few countries in europe, really in the world, that have managed to have such a low incidence despite being a place that lots of travelers come to, things like that. what do you attribute your success to? >> well, fareed, we took decisions very early. we listened to the experts. we communicated clearly.

we let the doctors do the talking. we strengthened our health care system. and we managed to convince the greek population that they needed to practice social distancing, and they did. and i'm very, very grateful to greeks across the country because the success that we -- that we have this is basically attributed to them. but i guess it's not rocket science. we basically did put the extras and we did it quickly, forcefully, and we've been able to to open up our economy gradually over the past month. so far we haven't had any real outbreaks. so, we feel comfortable that we've dodged the first bullet and that we've managed to contain the first wave of the outbreak. >> as you open up, are you worried you're going to see a spike in infections and what is the plan? i noticed on june 8th, when you did announce some opening, you already had not a large number, but by most standards, but for

greece, i think 97 new cases. is it inevitable that as you open up, there will be a relaxing of social distancing and, therefore, there will be more infections? and what do you do about it? >> well, i think you're right to point out, fareed, as we do open up, obviously the risk increases. and you know, the big risk always is we don't want to be victims of our own success. people do become complacent and we do stress covid is still with us. we need to stick to basic social distancing rules. we need to wear masks. of course, we're helped by the fact that primarily in greece in the summer we're outdoors. transmission rates outdoors are lower. so far as far as domestic cases, we haven't seen a real uptick in new cases. for example, we only had four new cases reported across the country today. but, of course, our main concern is how do we handle opening up to foreign visitors?

we have a very elaborate plan to do that. we will do it gradually. and our first concern will always be the safety and health of our visitors. i need to point out that over the past month we have tested every single individual who has flown into greece. we have a pretty good database indicating positive cases for people who have traveled to greece. let me just give you one indicative number. over the past four days we tested close to 4,000 people arriving at athens airport. we had only two positive cases. both asymptomatic. if we keep to that ratio, i think we can start gradually opening up the country to foreign visitors. >> let me ask you about the broader macro economic picture. obviously, because of this lockdown and the lockdown everywhere, the greek economy is suffering its worst blow in a long time. i've seen estimates that say the economy will shrink 5%, 7%,

maybe 10%, in line with other european economies. but there is a difference this time. the germans and french have agreed finally to allow for a kind of europewide bond, europewide financing. which should provide a lot of resources to greece. is this a kind of turning point from europe? the perspective of greece that has needed these funds so badly, do you regard this as a real turning point? >> you are right, i think it is a turning point. 2020 is going to be a very difficult year for all european countries, including greece. so far we've done better than most european countries in the first three months of the year. we had a recession of 0.9%, the eurozone average was 3.6%. of course, we know the second quarter is going to be extremely, extremely difficult. we've always argued that europe needed to make a big step forward to be very ambitious in terms of supporting the recovery

post-covid. and the proposal that has been put forward by the commission, which as you rightly point out, is based on the french-german proposal which is an ambitious step. i think you're right to point out that europe, and in particular france and germany, the powerhouses, the two countries that were always at the foundation of the european integ grags project, stepped up to the plate, delivered and should this proposal be accepted, then i expect it to be accepted, it will be a true game-changer. just to give you an indication, as far as my country, greece, is concerned, we will have additional funding for investments that will be close to 32 billion euros for the next four years. it's a lot of money and we intend to put it to good use. >> prime minister, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you very much, fareed. pleasure was mine. hope to see you in santorini soon. >> i will try my best. coming up in a moment here on "gps," policing in america.

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a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! i was struck by a graphic i saw on kron.com this year. in showed in 2018 the police fatally shot about 1,000 people here in the united states versus 11 in germany and just 3 in the united kingdom. that's 31 people fatally shot in the u.s. for every 10 million people compared to 1 person per

million onin germany and half that rate in the united kingdom. it made me wonder what makes american policing so different from its counterparts in the developing world. joining me are pose sa brooks and paul hirschfield. paul, let me start by asking you, if, you know, you study this very carefully, what is the fundamental reason that american police shootings are so much higher than you see in europe, for example? >> i think i could boil it down to three main reasons. first, american police are far more likely than european police to encounter civilians in possession of firearms. so much of their training is towards scenarios and they're trained to respond pre-emptively and sometimes that can result in tragic overreactions. second of all, the threshold in which police are. er permitted to use deadly force

and other tactics in this country is much lower than threshold in europe. in the united states they're permitted to use deadly force when they have a belief their life is in danger whereas in europe they have to have an absolute necessity threshold met. legislatures are perfectly free to set higher thresholds but they rarely do so. finally, american police receive on average about three weeks -- i'm sorry. about 20 weeks or five months of classroom training, which is much lower than the european standard of at least two years. so, in 21 weeks, they naturally spend time focused on essentials. the laws, rules, tactics, equipment, force, defensive techniques. whereas in europe they have much more time to provide a much more balanced set of educational

skills and programming such as cultural awareness, communications, working with a variety of groups and a variety of tactics that will help them resolve volatile situations more peacefully. >> and, paul, i noticed that -- we talk a lot about racism, you know, correctly in the sense that you have these enormous disparities. one of the things i noticed is even in states that are overwhelmingly white, you still have per capita very high rates of police shootings. >> yes. relative to european rates, white americans are far more likely to be killed by the police, which shows that you could reduce deadly force against african-americans down to -- reduce that disparity down to zero, and it won't -- you

could remove the scourge of racism from american policing, but it won't do nearly enough to actually solve the problems of police over aggression, lack of training and lack of accountability. >> rosa, one thing i've been struck by in your writing and looking at the subject, we think this is an age old problem. we think american policing is tougher, maybe it's the wild whes west and things like that, but it seems in the last 20 to 30 years a very specific move for the police to be armed and trained by the defense department. >> well, i don't think that's quite the way i would put it, fareed. we have created a number of programs, several of them dating to the drawdown in iraq in the mid-2000s where we have decided to make military equipment

available to american law enforcement agencies, partly because dod had too much of it and didn't know what to do with it and it was just sitting around. that's not always a bad thing. a lot of police departments obtain things like filing cabinets and old desks that way. a great way to get your office furniture cheap. but i do think that there is a terrible problem also some of the equipment made available to law enforcement agencies were things like mine resistant armored protection vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers and so forth. quite a lot of american police departments, even in very small towns where there's no conceivable need for them, no terrorist threat whatsoever, availed themselves of those programs and ended up looking like they're soldiers in afghanistan rather than small town cops. and that's gotten a lot of media attention, quite rightly. it's ridiculous and those programs should be scaled back. >> but isn't it true, rosa,

they're also, when they get the equipment, they also get the training? there is a kind of counterinsurgency training you get, which seems to me is very different from what community policing should ideally be. >> not always. one of the problems with this program is a lot of police departments get this equipment and not get appropriate training or how to use it or whatever training they get is extremely superficial. ironically, when people talk about the militarization of american police, they have the tendency to focus on the wrong issues or give too much attention to those programs. those programs are unnecessary. they should be scaled back, but in many ways i think -- there are both ways in which militarization runs deeper, for instance, most police academy training in most police departments around the united states seems to be modeled on a 1980s parody of marine boot camps with heavy emphasis on

shouting and pushups and yes, sir, no, sir, and that does all kinds of bad things to police culture. but there are other ways in which the american law enforcement agencies could stand to benefit from some of the insights the military gained painfully. when you mention counterinsurgency, the american military learned quite painfully you need to focus on population protection. you can't just focus on killing people. you have to establish legitimacy otherwise you're going to fail. that's a mindset, quite frankly, some american police departments could use a little more of, that emphasis on protection of the population rather than just going out there and getting the bad guys. >> fascinating. rosa, paul, thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. next on "gps," more on policing. one of the big questions, of course, is, is it systemically, systematically racist? we'll look at the evidence.

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57% of americans think police treat whites better than blacks, according to a cbs news. a monmouth poll, that exact same number, 57%, think police officers in a dangerous situation are more likely to use excessive force if the culprit is black. so, is american policing systemically racist? there was a viral op-ed published in "the wall street journal" two weeks ago that said decidedly no, calling it a myth. joining me now is a man whose

life work is studying this issues. phillip atiba goff is joining us. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> the central claim made in that op-ed, but is often made and used in some studies, as you know, is that it is true that if you compare the number of arrests or searches or stops of blacks versus their percentage in the population, it is high. it's often double. but if you compare it to the number of crimes committed, given that depending on how you count it, african-americans account for 50% to 60% of the crimes in this country, the police is actually less likely to stop them. how should we understand that data? >> right. so, if i can, just bluntly say, this is some version of what

about black-on-black crime? this are two versions of that question. one is a really bad faith dog whistle. you hear, what about chicago, which is the other version. these people deserve it and don't bother me with it. there's another version of that question is, well, if there's crime higher in one neighborhood, shouldn't the police be in that neighborhood and shouldn't we account for that? that's a responsible question. any scientist worth their salt has to be engaged in it to get an understanding of the disparities we see, four to one, five to one, six to one, eight to one, black-to-white disparity in use of force, how much of that belongs to the police? that's a responsible question. but when you ask it responsesably, the answer that you get back is crime isn't sufficient to explain those disparities. poverty also isn't sufficient to explain those disparities. in fact, crime and poverty

together aren't sufficient to explain those disparities. if you want to talk about so-called black-on-black crime, right, and you want to do it in good faith, you have to say that's a portion of it, but it's not the whole picture. in fact, there's some form of bias that's adding to it that leads to the disparities we see. >> what to make of some studies that have shown, yes, this racial disparity does exist in terms of the police encounters, even in terms of arrests, but it disappears when you talk about the issue that we're now all talking about, which is a white policeman killing, you know, allegedly murdering a black person. you know the study i'm talking about, roland fryer at harvard, that concludes blacks and hispanics are 50% more likely to have police use nonlethal force on them, but that that disparity between minorities and whites disappears when you get to the issue of lethal force, when you

get to a killing. what do you make of that? >> yeah, that's what he argues but that's not what the data say. so, to give a better sense of the right way to be studying this, again, i have to kind of explain. there are three levels, three entry points at which bias can come in. i want to be clear. it's not all like individual police officers. it's really important to understand that. so, the first level that most people are thinking about is at that level of the officer, right? in the encounter. an officer is going to use force against a black person where they wouldn't use force against a white person. that's one level of bias entering in but it's not the only level. you can also do that, depending on where they go, right? so, if police are going into black neighborhoods, especially if they're going in at a higher rate than a crime would suggest, that's another form of bias. even if the police are acting entirely fairly, treating everybody exactly equally, there's going to be a bias in the way our law enforcement is applied. there's a third level that in

which some constitutes, law enforcement is more likely to use force than other cities. you could have a city where law enforcement is brutal and another city where they're more gentle. if the cities where they're more brutal happen to be majority black cities, it's still a form of bias. you have to be able to account for each of those three levels, okay? that's the first thing i want to make sure folks understand. when we're talking about, yes, they're more likely to have contact. well, even if they're only 10% more likely to beat up a black person during contact but they're 200, 300, 400 more likely to have contact with black people, that's going to be a compounding kind of bias. and the specific study -- >> and let me just explain, i think, what you're saying. there's a lot of marijuana use on college campuses. there's a certain amount of cocaine use in inner cities. the police disproportionately go

to the places where there's cocaine use and do not go to the places where there's marijuana use, even though historically both were illegal. >> that's right. and i'll be honest, there's marijuana use on college campuses and marijuana use in black neighborhoods is higher on college campuses but it's very rare you see law enforcement busting into a frat party and making drug arrests. the same way there's cocaine usage on wall street, but it's very rarely a wall street party is busted in. those are different forms of bias. in some of my congressional testimony i gave in september, i cited a meta analysis, a review of the 50 most cited papers on race and police bias. out of those 50, only one came back with an anti-white bias. now, in climate science we understand this. so out of the -- out of 100

studies, 98 show human-made effects on climate and two show something other than that. this is the same ratio. that's the degree to which science is clear there's an anti-black bias in contact, in use of force in general, and in use of lethal force. >> professor goff, pleasure to have you on. thanks for explaining it all. >> appreciate it. next on "gps," the world was watching as the trump administration cleared the park across from the white house recently. so, the president could have a photo op. what happens to america's international credibility after something like that? reports from europe and asia when we return. when you think of a bank, you think of people in a place. but when you have the chase mobile app, your bank can be virtually any place. so, when you get a check... you can deposit it from here. and you can see your transactions and check your balance from here. you can save for an emergency from here. or pay bills from here. so when someone asks you, "where's your bank?" you can tell them: here's my bank.

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china, russia and iran have shown glee at the unrest in america after the state department spokesperson tweeted a criticism of china, her chinese counterpart tweeted, i

can't breathe. i wanted to understand how the world is viewing america as it convulses. natalie nougayrede and parag khanna join me now. natalie is the former editor of lamond, now columnist for "the guardian." she's in paris. parag joins us. parag, looking at it from asia, does this seem a decline of american power? >> well, you know, fareed, you and i have both been around long enough to know there are these cycles much larger than this media moment. we can't treat this one episode of the george floyd protests and so forth as an isolated incident. we're talking about two decades of the delegitimation by american people? what do we mean? most of the world's population

are under 40 and most of the world's population are asian. they don't actually have any tangible memory of america leading the western triumph over the soviet union in the cold war. their first memory might be the botched gore election in 2011. then they remember the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the ill-fated wars in iraq and afghanistan, the global financialism that put predatory capitalism in the spotlight, and then the polarized politics of the trump election and now the george floyd protests, the handling of covid-19. we are looking at 20 years of the delegitimation of america in many people's eyes. >> natalie, how does it look to you? in europe are there still memories of that older american soft power or leadership? >> i disagree with the motion that this is 20 years of

deledgization of u.s. soft power. i disagree with that. i think there's a clear breaking point, a breaking moment with the trump administration, with the election of trump. donald trump -- when we watch what's going on in the u.s., we think about what donald trump has done since the beginning of his presidency. and in terms of foreign policy, in terms of dismantling essential pillars of multilateralism, pulling out of the world health organization just recently, attacking the international criminal court, threatening people with sanctions if they cooperate with this institution, and so many other things that from europe look not just hostile to multilateralism, but, in fact, hostile to us. hostile to some of the values and principles that europe and the european union, in particular, has been created to defend. so, i would really insist that this administration is for people who care about international cooperation, the

possibility of having a rules-based international order, this administration is a particular breaking point. it only believes in brutal power rivalry. and i believe no other u.s. administration has been -- no other u.s. president has been this brutal in his approach of international relations. >> let me ask you, natalie, if i can, a follow-up, which is, i see a very big distinction between the police brutality and then the protests after it. in other words, europeans seem to regard the protests as an example of american democracy and action based on the commentary i've read and seen. and it actually has resulted in people in europe looking at their own societies and asking themselves, do we have systemic racism in france or in britain? >> i think, you know, these debates do cross the atlantic.

we've seen debates cross the atlantic in the past, so it's not surprising that some of this resonates in europe, but we're talking about a different part of the world. we do have our own complexities here in europe. and i think that democracies have these debates. so, you know, the hope, surely, on both sides of the atlantic for people like me and you who do care about defending democratic principles in a rules-based environment, and individual freedoms and rights, the hope must be that, you know, just like people in the u.s. are defending and fighting to uphold principles, essential principles, people in europe are also interested in that kind of fight. so, i'm not too worried also about, you know, perhaps in the future there will be more bridges between us, but right now with this u.s. administration, it feels like we belong to different worlds, you know, in terms of attitude towards what kind of world we want to have together.

you mentioned russia and china. we know here in europe that, you know, we are a complex part of the world. we risk being turned into a playground of rather hostile big powers, es ternl powers. i think one of the things we have to think about much harder in europe, and this is happening slowly in the face of all this confusion and hostility we feel from the u.s. administration, is to think about how is europeans we build the cohesion among ourselves so we can defend things we care about in this pretty complex world of power rivalry. >> parag, let me ask you to pick up on what natalie was saying. is there a sense in asia that, perhaps, the ideals that america once -- that it was seen as standing for, or the openness, is now more available? i'm thinking of the rise in the

number of asians who want to go to canada or australia or even parts of continental europe because, you know, in many of those places, a masters level education is now available in english. >> it's a very good point you're raising. i'm glad you mentioned students. because shaping the perception of the next generation of people around the world begins with students, who captures the best and the brightest, so to speak. this is an important point because the decline in the overall number of chinese and indian students who either come to the u.s. or remain in the u.s. upon graduation began to decline during the obama administration, the later years. it actually predates the trump administration. now, obviously we have the factors of the last couple of years and you know these considering an executive order that would scale back on the hvb visas as well. we've seen america has lost and canada has gained when it comes to the best and the brycest. europe is important to mention

because even though many countries in europe are most not native english speaking, they have been switching the language of higher education to english and being able to recruit from that global talent pool. that becomes yet another data point in terms of understanding this kind of mercenary, if you will, mindset of young people around the world who no doubt admire the ideals that america has. they sympathize with what ther seeing in terms of the black lives matter protests. the last ten years, occupy wall street -- >> parag, i'm sorry, i got to stop you. we are out of time. fascinating conversation. we will have both of you back. natalie nougayrede, parag khanna, thank you so much. we will be back. my name is trisha. i'm 70 and i live in mill valley, california. my biggest passion is gardening. i love to be outdoors. i have jaybirds that come when i call. i know how important it is to feed your body good nutrition. i heard about prevagen

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thought i would do something on tv that for the last 15 years i've delivered a commencement address. a number of distinguished people have given speeches online and done an excellent job with an awkward task. a couple of messages resonated with me. tim cook, the ceo of apple gave a speech at ohio state university where i was honored to speak at the 2019 commencement. cook told the graduates to use the disruption of the pandemic to rethink the value of work and workers. >> think about an undocumented father ignored or scorned by his community, who is putting himself at risk in the fields today to feed his family and yours. think about a single mother who stocked shelves at night and drives a city bus in the morning without whom so much would fall apart. think about the hospital orderlies scrubbing down the ward on hands and knees, whose work today is a solitary and

sacred as a high priest purifying a temple. most of all, think about how you, blessed with a world-class education, might act and work and be differently when all this is said and done. >> it should be a wake-up call for all of us when the ceo of one of the largest capitalist enterprises on the planet is telling us not to judge people by their worth in the marketplace alone, but by their intentions, impact, work, and dignity. the second speech dealt with more recent events. watching those ugly videos of police behavior, many people despaired that in some parts of society, things have changed very little. in a graduation address on youtube, president obama explained that many things have gotten better, though it was not by accident. >> because citizens took seriously the mandate that this is a government of and by and

for the people. well, bit by bit, generation by generation, we've made progress. from cleaning up our air and water to creating programs that lifted millions of seniors out of poverty, to winning the right to vote, and to marry who you love. none of these changes happened overnight. or without sustained effort. but they did happen. usually because young people marched and organized and voted and formed alliances. and just led good lives. and looked after their community and their families and their neighborhoods and slowly changed hearts and minds. >> looking at the extraordinary coalition of people of all stripes who are demanding reform and change, i'm optimistic that finally change is going to come. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. gets complicated,

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i'm brian stelter live in new york and this is "reliable sources" our look at the story behind the story. coming up this hour, a new example of president trump abusing his power. i'll speak with a senior legal adviser for the trump campaign. what it means to be covering the black lives matter movement and living it at the same time. sara sidner is here to talk about covering the protests. an interview with a photographer in minneapolis, covering the protests and now is permanently blind in one eye.