this is gps, the global public square. welcome to everyone around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. the state of race in america. the killing of george floyd has opened up an extraordinary moment in this country. what does history tell us about the chances of bringing about real change? i will talk to the historians with ed gordon reed and tim natale. democracies or dictatorshipdictatorship

dictatorships? a political scientist has the answers. plus the world may look a little grim these days, but i will bring you an answer to the age-old question, are humans inherently good or evil? but first here's my take. cities across the american south and west are getting pum memell by the coronavirus right now, but new york city seems to have things under control as it begins to open up. so i have to admit, i'm excited. i know it will be a very different city for a while with urban life canceled or curtailed, but still, i'm excited. the city has felt like an empty stage set full of grand boulevards but no people. now life has reemerged with people entering shops or simply walking on the streets. although limited tables in restaurants, urban life is coming back.

i know people have said this pandemic will be the death for cities, that it makes people a petrie dish for disease, that they don't need to live in such cramped quarters, that it makes them a relic of the past. maybe they're right, but historically they've been wrong. in the 1940s, the bubonic plague hit hard. advice was given that seems remarkably current. flee the city, see only a few friends and gather in the evening to eat, drink and tell each other interesting stories, their version of netflix. yet it was after one of the worst plagues in human history that the city of europe, florence in particular, launched the renaissance. in 1793, philadelphia was america's leading metropolis, the nation's capitol and the most popular city. it experienced a gruesome epidemic of yellow fever which

decimated the population. secretary of state thomas jefferson, who had always disliked cities, lived in the outskirts and continued to commute to work. he later wrote that this disease, like most evils, are the means of producing some good. the yellow fever will discourage the growth of great cities in our nation. it didn't quite work out that way. critics say this time it's different. new technologies make it much easier for people to work from home and the dangers of the disease will keep them away. there's some truth to this, but for perspective, it's worth reading harvard economist edward glaser's "triumph of the city." globalization had killed off most of the injuries, the car had proved to be a killer technology, far more important than zoom, and allowing people to live farther from the office. phone service had become cheap and easy and add riots, crime

and mismanagement and you had a molitov cocktail that wrecked city life. and yet cities came back. they found new economic life in the service sector, despite the rise of fax machines, video, e-ma e-mail. human beings like to mingle. in an industry of finance and technology, people gained huge advantages by being close to the action, meeting new people, learning day to day by men toto and comparing notes, much of which happens accidentally. it's true the coronavirus has presented big cities with new challenges, but it's important not to rush to conclusions. density is not the problem it's made out to be. manhattan, the densest part of new york city, has a lower rate of infection than any of the other burroughs. across the u.s., both capita rates of infection are highest

in the least densely populated regions. if you look abroad, massive cities have handled the virus stunningly well. type a hong kong and singapore are all dense cities with packed mass transit systems, millions traveling on subways. and yet their covid-19 deaths have been amazingly low, under 30 dead in singapore, under 10 dead in hong kong and all of taiw taiwan. they have succeeded in this difficult situation because, perhaps as a consequence of the sars epidemic, they were prepared. they invested in health care and hygiene. they reacted to the virus early, aggressively and intelligently. now they are reaping the rewards. one rule seems clear. bad leadership, misguided priorities and inept policies can sink a city. so if new york and other urban centers floundered this time, it will not be because of pandemics and technology. it will be for the same reason that countries and cities have failed throughout history: bad

government. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column, and let's get started. ♪ on july 5th, 1852, the escaped slave turned abolitionist frederick douglas told a crowd in rochester, this fourth of july is yours, not mine. you may rejoice, i must mourn. he went on, what to the american slave is your fourth of july? i answer, a day that reveals to him more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. here we are 168 years later, and this july 4th weekend, many americans are wondering whether to celebrate or chastise their country. let's look at the extraordinary six weeks since the death of george floyd with two great

historians. annette gordon reed is author of her book. tim teaches at nyu and a cnn presidential historian. professor reed, let me ask you whether -- are you hopeful that this time it's different or that this time is bigger than some of the past cases? when you look back at history, do you feel like there have been many of these moments where there is a kind of attempt to reckon with the past, and then it dissipates? >> well, yes. there have been those moments. i'm hopeful about this moment, you're absolutely right. there is something different about this. polls show that large numbers of americans think that there should be some reckoning, some sort of change in attitudes about policing, change in attitudes about voter suppression, all of those kinds of things.

i'm a hopeful person generally. i have to be. but i do know that unless concrete actions follow that hope, follow the sort of starts that have been made, then we will fall back into the problems that we've seen for so many years. >> tim, what strikes me as possibly one of the most hopeful aspects is that there has not been a kind of white backlash to many of the things that have happened. and i measure that in one very simple way which is i think it's fair to say that president trump tried to court such a backlash. and yet his numbers, his poll numbers, have actually fallen among whites. the reason that joe biden is leading so significantly is not increased support among minorities but decreased support among whites. and in a sense, you know this as former director of the richard nixon presidential library, ever since richard nixon, there has been a strategy largely employed by republicans to court this

white backlash. why do you think it's not working this time? >> every so often candor enters into the president's tweets, and he just recently tweeted "lone warrior." and that really describes at the moment his efforts, as you said, to court a white backlash. president obama, when he spoke not too long ago, was talking about the diversity of the movement, the black lives movement, the movement on the streets in response to the murder of george floyd. he noted how different that was from the '60s. i would also point out to other hopeful signs. i share with annette the sense of hope. in 2001, the state of mississippi had a referendum on what to do with the flag. two-thirds of those who participated in the referendum voted to keep the flag. the state of mississippi just

removed its flag without the kind of demonstrations and backlash that certainly would have happened if a governor had done that in 2001, but the white people of mississippi, there weren't enough of them to respond and oppose it. the second big change is after charleston in 2015, after the murder of nine african-americans in that church by a white supremacist, there were calls to remove the names of confederate generals on the ten bases of those countries that have those names. the chief administrator, which at the time was barack obama, refused to change those names saying those names were to honor individuals, not idealogies. well, in june, after the lafayette square fiasco, the u.s. military made clear in a number of very powerful ways that enough was enough. and there is a debate now, but

republicans and democrats are arguing to change those names. those are just two examples of what i think is a transformational change in the conversation in this country. >> annette, let me ask you about one area where it does seem we're still talking past each other. there is this sense, i think, of people who want to have a much broader reckoning about american history. and there is a response which i hear sometimes, not so much publicly, where people are saying, we've come a long way. we're really not as racist as we were. and it feels like these are two separate conversations in a way. i would argue, at least, i think, yes, of course, there is a lot of progress. look at the number of black elected officials, look at the number of black police chiefs. but the larger question of, has this country reckoned with the past, with 250 years of slavery and segregation and more, do you

think america has properly reckoned with that past? >> no, we have not. we've certainly acknowledged it, but i think the events of the past six weeks have told us that they're sort of talking past one another. what you're talking about has been a feature of our society for a very long time. i think a number of americans looking at the video of george floyd being killed in the moment of pandemic when we're all feeling very, very vulnerable had an opportunity to consider these matters in ways that perhaps they had not before, and we're beginning to have a discussion, but there is no doubt that we have been talking past one another. i think tlots of people did not believe the extent of the problem, that flif there was a problem, it was a problem of black culture, a problem of black families, sort of blaming the culture. i believe we've started to have this discussion, but it's not something we've been engaged in in a very effective way up until

this moment. i will say i think the talk about the monuments and so forth, all of those things are important, but they're not as important as the things that got us here when we started thinking about the nature of policing in the african-american communities. that's a much tougher thing than bringing down a statue or changing the name of a school or whatever. >> all right. stay with us, because when we come back, i'm going to ask annette gordon-reed what to do about the jefferson memorial. remember, she won a pulitzer prize for writing about thomas jefferson and his relationship with sally hemings. when we come back. some companies still have hr stuck between employees and their data.

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and we are back with the eminent historians annette gordon-reed and tim naftali. annette, you are knowledgeable about thomas jefferson. in light of that, what should we do about thomas jefferson's face on mt. rushmore? >> people have asked me this about the founding generation of confederates. it created the united states of america. if you think that's a good thing, it's worth commemorating, not necessarily celebrating, but commemorating their achievements. the jefferson memorial, for example, the replica of monticello and uva combined there with the jefferson statue in the middle is a way to

conte conte contextualize jefferson. but also having a section to talk about he was a slave owner, to talk about what that meant with his attitudes about race and those things as well. i think with the founders, there's a way to commemorate them, but at the same time you have to tell the truth about their lives. they're not people, i don't think, that can be put away. >> so, tim, annette seems to be saying commemorate people for the achievements they had despite their having been slave owners, unlike confederate generals, who were being commemorated, presumably, for mutiny in the united states to support slavery. but what do we do about woodrow wilson? the principal just renamed the school. it seems to me wilson was being

honored for things that did not have anything to do with his racist views. so how to think about that? >> wilson is a very interesting case, because he was being honored for his views about international engagement, international peace, international organizations. i learned some time ago, actually, thanks to my students at the university of hawaii, how woodrow wilson had not applied his 14 points equally to all of the nations that were struggling for freedom at the time of the broside treaty. he was clearly racist in the response that he made to koreans, for example, who wanted to be liberated from the japanese. so i think that wilson, that even in the field for which wilson is most admired, his racism played a role. and so that's why i've never been comfortable with woodrow wilson being a hero the way he

has been treated. other presidents, where they have acted in ways that have benefited the country and those ways are not permeated by their pinched racist views, then you have this moment where you're juggling and you're saying, well, we should remember them for this as opposed to that. after all, even richard nixon, who committed abuse of power and engaged in real crimes, still deserves credit for the opening to china. >> annette, what do you think of wilson? the man who wanted the league of nations and in a way has defined america's international role ever since, and yet resegregated the federal bureaucracy in an act of real overt racism? >> well, he was a terrible person. i mean, as for princeton, he made modern princeton. he took it from a sleepy college to something that is the thing that we think of today as a great university.

and he was president of the united states, the league of nations, all those kinds of things we honor, but i think it made sense for them to take his name off the school for public policy because his public policies were as you said. he initiated public policies and sort of went backwards. he resegregated institutions that had been desegregated, so i can understand not wanting to be associated with him in that way. >> is it healthy, tim, to be having this debate? there are a lot of americans who feel like does this mean we don't honor our country, we don't celebrate our country. is it a sign of weakness or a sign of strength? >> it's a sign of strength. i think of our country as struggling between the realities of 1619 and the aspirational qualities of the enlightenment. those ideas that jefferson put forward, even though he didn't live them, as annette knows better than anyone, and it's a

struggle between the aspirational qualities of our principles and the realities of america that has led to -- that bending towards justice that dr. martin luther king jr. and later barack obama talked a lot about. so if you talk about how we're aspiring to those values and then talk about how each generation has fallen short, i think it's very healthy. because in a sense you're confirming the central ideas of the country. the founders didn't achieve those ideas, but the founders didn't put a glass ceiling forever on them. each of our generations has been chipping away, using the power of those principles as our tool. so i think it's a sign of hope and of a healthy democracy to be having this conversation. >> annette gordon-reed, tim naftali, fascinating conversation. thank you for joining me. >> thank you for asking. >> thank you, fareed. next on "gps," japan has had

20,000 covid cases total since it recorded its first infection in mid-january. this week the united states started hitting more than double that number in new cases every day. how do two nations have such a different experience with the same disease? stanford's francis fukiyama has the answer. is that net carbs or total?... eh, not enough fiber... chocolate would be good... snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. with nutrients to help support immune health. with nutrients to help ♪ ♪ ♪

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engulfed the globe, scientists and politicians have scrambled to learn about how to combat its spread. so were authoritarian countries like china better equipped to mobilize their populations with contact tracing and lockdowns? could this spread the slow of the virus with information? or was taiwan the secret to success? a political scientist answers some of these questions in a writing entitled "the pandemic and political order." good afternoon. >> good afternoon, fareed. >> what is the answer to the question, what countries handled the pandemic best? >> i think the first thing to say is it doesn't correlate at all with whether you're a democracy or an authoritarian

country. if you look in both of those categories, you'll find some good performers and some bad performers. i think that the real characteristics that have been critical are different, and they can be shared by either type of regime, so one is you obviously need good state capacity, and by that we mean a public health system, adequate doctors, nurses, the people that run hospitals and organize the system as a whole, but i think the more intangible factor is a matter of trust. if people, citizens, don't trust the government, and if they don't trust their fellow citizens, then they're not going to comply with shutdown orders, they're not going to take the necessary protective measures, which can be quite burdensome, as we've seen from being indoors for the last three months. and sometimes it's a democracy that has that, so that would be south korea or taiwan or germany. sometimes an authoritarian

country has that, and that, i think, would be china at the moment. but then there are dmemocracies that haven't done so well and there are hypocrisies that haven't done so well in those categories. >> i think we can see how america just doesn't do government particularly in the health care system that well. but talk a little bit about social trust. you wrote a whole book about it. what i'm intrigued by is where does it come from? because you look at a place like hong kong, which i was fascinated by. in hong kong even though there are all these protests against the government and there are protests about the legitimacy of the government, there was still a kind of social trust which said, when the government tells you to wear a mask, you wear a mask. when the government tells you not to do this -- how do you describe that? >> well, i think there is really two different sources. so one is deeply historical. in the united states, we have a political culture that really

does not trust government. the flag with the rattlesnake that says "don't tread on me," this goes back to, you know, the 18th century where americans really don't like government authority. so this is something that really doesn't exist in most asian countries where government is regarded as benign. but there is a more proximate cause in the united states in particular, which has to do with polarization. you know, in my view, the degree of polarization we have today in the u.s. is the single biggest weakness of the country as a society. it means that citizens don't trust one another, and, therefore, they also don't trust the government depending on whether it's a blue state governor that's in control or someone like president trump that's running the federal government. and i think that's really what's hobbled the ability of the united states to respond adequately. >> so when you look at the united states, what you find is that it is the only country, i

think, in which the response to covid has been politicized in the sense that wearing a mask is a political statement, observing social distance is a political statement. i've struggled to look in other countries, and you just don't find this in a similar way, and i wonder if there is some similarity here, frank, where the response to climate change in the united states is highly polarized and politicized in a way that almost anywhere, even australia, it isn't. >> that's true and it's an unfortunate thing about the u.s., but i do think there is actually a common thread not between democracy and poor response, but between populist leaders and poor responses. so, for example, in addition to president trump, you've got bolsonaro in brazil and you've got manuel lopez obrador in mexico, both of whom are populist, one on the right, one on the left.

these are also polarized countries, especially brazil. so like in the united states, bolsonaro has a core of fanatical right wing supporters but then lots and lots of critics. i think they are quickly racing to the top of bad responses as a result of their polarization. >> how would you describe some of the successful countries in asia in terms of the key to their success? is it some kind of a confucion culture or system? people use the word, i suppose, as a respect for authority? >> it's not just respect for authority. i think one of the characteristics of confucionism is a respect for bureaucracy and education and expertise. in south korea, for example, the management of their covid response was delegated to a woman, a health professional who was running their centers for

disease control. she became the single most trusted person in the entire country because of her competence, and so there is a kind of, i think, a cultural inclination in that part of the world to trust people in government to think that they know what they're doing because they're educated and have expertise, and obviously that's something that does not apply in many other parts of the world. >> and, finally, when you look at the democracies and dictatorships, as you said, there isn't a clear correlation. the goods and bads on both sides. but it's fair to say that when people look at the u.s. and china, generally speaking they would feel that despite a bad start, china has managed to handle it better than the u.s. does that matter in a kind of geopolitical sense? >> it unfortunately matters, because people aren't looking statistically at democracies and authoritarian governments as a whole. they're looking at that one comparison. i would say it's worse than what you just said.

i mean, the united states really looks so bad now that we're not even out of our first wave, and i think it's really going to hurt american standing. i think, you know, the united states has an opportunity to correct this. the one important check that our constitution provides is an electoral check, and we'll reach that point in november, so it's not an unrecoverable situation, but i do think right now that the united states looks like it's a country in decline, and a lot of people are taking notice of that. >> frank fukuyama, always a pleasure. thank you. >> thank you, fareed. next on "gps," the world may seem dark these days, but my next guest says humans are hard-wired for kindness. a hopeful history of humankind, when we come back. ♪

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because if it weren't clear before, it's clear now. this country wasn't built by wall street bankers and ceos, it was built by the great american middle class, health care workers, docs, nurses, delivery truck drivers, grocery store workers. you know we've come up with a new phrase for them: essential workers. we need to do more than praise them, we need to pay them. as president, it's my commitment to all of you, to lead on these issues and to listen. for that's what the presidency is - the duty to care, to care for all of us, not just those who vote for us, but all of us. this job is not about me. it's about you. it's about us. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. if sttry new align digestivetive issuede-stress. it's about us. it combines align's probiotic with ashwagandha to help soothe occasional digestive upsets, plus stress that can make them worse.

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crisis, humanity's other issues continue unabated. terror continues, murderers and shootings actually up in some american cities despite lockdowns, and the stay-at-home orders are thought to have caused incidents of domestic violence to spike. it's all enough to make us fear for the present and future of humanity. that's why i wanted to hear from rodco bredman. he is the author of "human kind, a hopeful history." pleased to have you on, rodco. let me allow you to explain what you argue against in this book, which is what you call the thin veneer of civilization theory. explain what that is and why it's wrong. >> this is a really old idea in western culture which says that our civilization is only a thin veneer, and that when there is a small change in our circumstances or we're in the midst of a crisis that we reveal our true selves, that we start

looting and plummeting and show our savage side. that goes back to the greeks. you'll find it in western christianity with sinners. you'll find it with philosophers, the notion that people are just selfish, and i think it's fundamentally wrong. >> so what is the, again, strongest evidence that you have that it's fundamentally wrong? >> we can first look at what happens after natural disasters. w one case study that i look at is what happened in 2005 after katrina. we all still remember what was in the press back then, stories of murders and rapes and looting and plundering, but we actually know from sociology that what really happens, also after katrina, but every single time after an earthquake or tsunami is that people pull together from the left to the right, rich, poor, young, old. we now have 700 case studies

from geologists that proved this over and over again. so i advise people to look maybe a little less at the news because that often makes you cynical and zoom out a little bit and look at what science is telling us. >> the iconic explanation for this idea of the thin veneer of civilization is, of course, the lord of the flies, this idea of these young kids, young boys abandoned on an island and, you know, it turns into a pretty savage, you know, all against all, they band into groups. you have something interesting to see about a real life version of "the lord of the flies." >> i remember reading "lord of the flies" when i was 16 or so years old, and i remember feeling depressed. it was only after researching for this book where i thought, can it really happen? is there a real case of kids shipwrecked on an island and how

would it turn out? it turns out, yes, it did happen. a long time ago, in 1966, there were these six kids from the congo. they were students in an a anglican boarding school. they said, you know what, we're going to steal a boat. they ended up in a storm, drifted for eight days, shipwrecked on an island and survived for six months. i managed to track them down, actually, and it turns out they're still the best of friends today, and that's how they managed to survive, by staying friends. so the real "lord of the flies" is in every way the opposite of the fictional "lord of the flies." it's a story of human resilience, of friendship and hope. >> you do have the nazis, auschwitz, world war i, the barbarity of isis, cambodia -- >> the list is very long. >> how do you square all that

with your cheerful history of human beings' essential goodness? >> i wouldn't say that i'm arguing that people are naturally good. i think we've evolved to be friendly, which is something different. this is literally what biologists are arguing these days. they talk about survival of the friendliest, which means that for millenia, it was a chance to pass on their genes to the next generation. but it's important to realize there is a dark side to this friendliness. if you look at history, so often we do the most horrible things in the way of comradeship and loyalty, and because we don't want to let down our own group. so i arrive at a paradoxical view of human nature where, on the one hand, yes, we are built to connect, we have been shaped by evolution to work together, but yeah, cooperation sometimes always leads to really horrible things. >> so i want to connect this to

the present, and i think it connects in a very powerful way. the debates about defunding the police fundamentally get at this idea that do we have to approach, you know, something like policing in this very fearful attitude that says human beings are very nasty. if we let up even slightly, you know, all hell will break loose? or are we actually doing the opposite? are we assuming too much nastiness, and we could take our foot off the accelerator or brake, depending how you make the metaphor work? >> i think that what we assume in other people is what you get out of them. if you assume that people deep down are just selfish and savages, then you're going to design all your institutions around that, your schools, your workplaces and the way your police will operate, and you'll create a lot of bad things. but if you turn it around, also in policing, i think you can move tie very different kind of society. in the book i look at the criminal justice system that they have norway, which is in

almost every single way the opposite of what the u.s. has. on the one hand they have very powerful community policing where the police officer is a kind of social worker that really tries to establish trust in the community, and then the prisons, well, they are like these very strange, almost like holiday resorts where inmates get treated with kindness, and they socialize with the guards, they have the freedom to make music. they have their own music studio and own music label which is called criminal records. i first learned about this and i thought this is crazy, this is nuts. they've lost it. but then you look at the evidence. you look at the recidivism rate, for example, the chance that someone will commit a crime when they get out of prison, and it's nowhere near as high in norway as it is in the u.s. so i think the u.s. could learn from quite a lot of countries here. >> you've given us a lot to think about. it's certainly a lot to hope for. thank you very much. >> thanks for having me.

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a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! my book of the week is "humanki "humankind: a hopeful history" by rutger bregman who we had on. whether you agree with it or find yourself arguing with it, you will see it has a bigger impact on you than most books you will read this year. and now for the last look. july is a month that celebrates democracy and liberty, from american celebrations this week to france's bastille that's coming up soon.

but we should note something else, the erosion of democracy, one more grim consequence of covid. has larry diamond noted in a recent article, democracies were already weakening over the last decade. the pandemic pushed open the door for an autocratic power grab and many leaders jumped at the opportunity, all in the name of fighting the disease, of course. if the fragile thread of democracy is now under threat, there is a free and fair election and it extended the prime minister's term without opposition from other parties. many returned to positions of power while the opposition was shut out. the leader viktor orbonne made

people worry that his strict demands are here to stay. they determined it was fake covid news and made jail time. pandemics in 40 countries expressed free speech in this way. governments cracked down on free press and on critics all in the name of supposedly fighting information. now, tunisia took the opposite approach, its cabinet promising funds to the public media as it stays afloat in a crippling economy there. if you look closely, the pandemic has actually strengthened people's desires for democracy. south korea's socialistic vote had the country's highest turnout in 30 years. iran also ran smoothly, bringing to power the opposition leader. and the world's largest ever

civil rights protests show that civic engagement is alive and well. even the lockdown protests indicate the health of free assembly. in germany, the constitutional court overturned a ban on demonstrations ruling that pandemic or not, the people had a right to protest. and that country still managed to bring down infection rates quickly and has so far avoided any second wave. and that is the ultimate irony of these political maneuvers. democracies from south korea to germany have shown themselves to be perfectly capable of handling this disease without any new emergency powers. and at that very moment, demagogues are using this very pandemic to destroy democracy. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. [grunting noise] i'll take that. woohoo! 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. ensure max protein.

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it's time. hey, i'm brian stelter live from new york, and this is "reliable sources." our weekly look at the story behind the story. this hour, a patriotic hour. anything from mt. rushmore to the musical "hamilton." we're going to ask questions from the government experts that seem to be missing. where is dr. anthony fauci? why isn't he all over your tv sets? we're going to get that answer plus a look at president trump's speech this weekend. to decode president trump, you have to be able to speak candidly. i'll show you why these speeches only make sense to fox viewers. carlson. can you picture him there? can you picture him as