them. thanks for spending your sunday morning with us. fareed zakaria "gps" starts right now. this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria, coming to you live from new york. today on the show, portland, oregon, federal agents in violent nightly clashes with protesters. now president trump says he could send 75,000 agents around the country. is this an abuse of power or does the president have the right to restore order? >> frankly, we have no choice but to get involved. >> i'll discuss with former homeland security chiefs janet napolitano and jeh johnson. and russia meddled in the

2016 election. that is a fact. the questions are, are they doing it again in 2020? and is china at it as well? i'll talk to the experts. then paris has the eiffel tower. london has big ben. and istanbul has the hagia sophia. what did president erdogan do to turkey's top tourist attraction that has many people upset, including the pope? find out later in the show. but first, here's my take -- we should not really be shocked by donald trump's admission in an interview with chris cwallac that he might not accept the results of the november election. he said that before the 2016 election as well. the situation now is far more dangerous. for months trump has been unleashing forces that come november could cost tens of

millions of americans to be convinced that the election was rigged. so, even if trump leaves office in january, voluntarily or not, he will leave behind a political climate that could verge on civil war. trump is an avid fan of conspiracy theories. his political rise started with with un. that barack obama was born in kenya. trump and his associates have been stoking the qanon movements which battles the president and deep state of high-ranking officials and lib ran elites who practice child torture and satanic worship. yes, check it out. all of these instincts are now being channeled into one idea, one great conspiracy, that the november vote will be rigged. now, some take comfort from the polls, believing joe biden will win with a large enough margin to make all these concerns irrelevant. maybe. but it is also quite possible that things will get very messy

in november. assuming we are still in the midst of a pandemic, all 50 states will have instituted new measures relating to voting from social distancing rules to mail-in ballots. the need to space out voters in lines and fewer poll workers could turn november 3rd into a disaster that spirals into january. imagine that on the night of november 3rd, backed up polling sites turn away voters and several states have stacks of mail-in ballots that they cannot announce their results immediately. imagine some procedures or ballots are contested. imagine this ends up in courts around the country. by december 8th, each state is supposed to decide which party's slate of electors, but what if that tally is unclear or disputed? jarod cohen, the author of

"accidental presidents" points out the election of 2020 could prove to be a toxic combination of the elections of 1876 and 2000. in 1876 four states faced serious allegation of irregularity or fraud and the situation was resolved by a back room deal. by 2000 a dispute over florida's ballots led to the supreme court intervening and unprecedented or highly controversial move settling the election in favor of george w. bush. what happens this fall will take place in the midst of the most polarized political climate in a century and with the hyperaccelerant of social media. now add to this scenario the most worrisome element, the conspiracy theorists who have already been peddling fear of the establishment and specifically warning the election will be rigged. if trump's prospects worsen as november approaches, his attacks are likely to get more

outlandish. he is already claimed in the past that large numbers of undocumented immigrants, out of state residents and dead people were voting for the democrats with no proof. he recently insisted there is zero chance mail-in ballots will be anything less than substantially fraudulent because mailboxes will be forged, he says millions of mail-in ballots will be from foreign countries. americans like conspiracy theories. it's a country suspicious of centralized power and these theories help people make sense of the word. we like chaos and chance. we prefer to see pat he weres, causes and villains. this exists on the left as well whether it's oliver stone's portrayal of the jfk assassination or the belief russia hacked into voting machines in 2016 and changed the tallies, but there is an important difference between the 2020 candidates. trump revels in conspiracy theories.

joe biden does not. one of america's greatest -- has been the peaceful transfer of political power. when john adams left the white house in 1801 and thomas jefferson was sworn in as his successor, it marked the first time in modern history that political power changed hands between two rival parties competing in an election. it is that precious legacy that donald trump is endangering with his conspiracy mongering about rigged election. for more go to cnn go and watch my recent special or read my washington post column. and let's get started. the protests that erupted across the u.s. in the wake of the killing of george floyd have been dissipating but not in

portland, oregon. for almost 06 nights citizens have come out to protest racism and police brutality. over that time some protesters have become violent and there have been acts of vandalism, including fires set and anti-police graffiti scrawled on a federal building. several weeks ago president trump not happy with the unrest sent in federal agents. video has emergeded of these feds shooting a protester in the head with rubber bullets and pulling another into an unmarked van. trump has since said he could send 75,000 agents across to cities in the country. is it trump's right or is it federal overreach? joining me now are two former secretaries of homeland security, janet napolitano and jeh johnson. jeh johnson, let me begin by asking you, what as far as you can tell is the situation in portland and did it require federal agents? >> fareed, you're right.

in portland, there have been enduring, consistent demonstrations in the aftermath of george floyd unlike most other cities. and it has continued, for the most part, peaceful. and whether or not that warrants deploying large-scale federal law enforcement, i think, is a very, very difficult question. the white house invoked a provision entitled 40 of the united states code that says the secretary of homeland security has the general ongoing authority to protect federal buildings. that is clear enough. that is done principally through the federal protective service, which janet and i know well, but beyond that, deploying large-scale federal law enforcement to the streets of portland, i think, one has to ask, is it could be unduly provocative and actually make matters worse. and i think once you do that, you begin to get unquestionable

federal ground. janet and i could probably come up with very compelling circumstances to deploy federal law enforcement to a major u.s. city to protect civil rights or to enforce federal law, but this seems to be a real challenge to me, particularly if the mayor and the governor and local law enforcement are not requesting it. >> janet that pal tan be notice, that seems to be the crucial issue. you were governor of arizona and former secretary of homeland security. is this usurpation of federal authority, what does it tell you that no local leader has asked you for this? >> i think this is so concerning to send in large numbers of federal agents in full battle gear, as it were. over not just the consent but the actual objection of local and state leaders.

from what i can tell the protests in portland were actually dying down somewhat until the feds showed up. and then that created a heightened response by the protesters and all of a sudden we have this kind of cycle going on with the huge tactics like tear gas and rubber bullets and the like. it's not the reason the department of homeland security was created. that's for sure. >> jeh johnson, you're a distinguished lawyer. what is the constitutional circumstance on this? because president trump now says he could do it in dozens of other cities? as far as i can tell, there's no violence. this is conjuring up some state of lawlessness in america that doesn't exist. can the president, in a sense,

define an emergency and then act on what he describes as a self-defined emergency? >> fareed, i think that is fact-dependent. from what i can see, the facts don't really exist here. first and foremost, the mayor, the police chief, is principally responsible for public safety. and if they're not requesting federal help, then that calls into question what they are doing. if, in fact, there is a systematic violation of federal civil rights going on. say, for example, these agents are arresting people on less than probable cause, that is hugely problematic and may, indeed, violate federal law. as a general matter, federal law enforcement can protect federal civil rights, can pursue violations of federal law, but i just don't see the circumstances exist in these cities. up till now, it has been adequate for local law enforcement. often with the help of the national guard to address a

security concern in the aftermath of george floyd. >> janet, you mentioned this was not why the department of hollanhol homeland security was created. barbara boxer has an op-ed that says, basically, maybe this was a mistake to create this super agency within the federal government that has this kind of power. others have argued, forget about defunding the police, let's dismantle the department of homeland security. it would be, in a sense, acting against your former department, but, you know, why does it exist? isn't part of the american tradition that we've never had a ministry of the interior, the way a lot of countries with strong states have had? >> well, that's correct. we haven't had a ministry of interior. and that was actually debated when the department was created. but, you know, the functions of

the department are many. it's counterterrorism, cyber security, it's disaster response and others. but it was not created to be kind of a free-wheeling federal police force to be used in cities across the united states. at the whim of the president and the now acting secretary, and it hasn't been used in that way in the past. you know, i think one of the things this reflects is that the lack of leadership at the department, you know, who are, you know, mission driven, not politics driven. >> jeh johnson, should this be -- should the law be rewritten? should joe biden come into the oval office, should the department be revamped in some

way? >> well, to the extent senator boxer is saying it is inherently unwieldy to have within one cabinet department fema and federal law enforcement agencies, i would respectfully disagree. i think with competent, attendtiatten attentive leadership, that could be done. if we're upset about what's happening in portland and elsewhere, as janet notes, then i think the answer there is to change the policy, to change the mission. if that doesn't happen, then you change the leaders who are directing the missions and promulgating the policies. during the vietnam war, for example, very fuad voe indicaew destruct -- if that doesn't work, change the leaders. >> pleasure to have you on. thank you. >> thank you, fareed. next on "gps," it is 100 days until the election here in

america. we'll talk about how russia and china are thinking about the vote. are they both trying to meddle this time? ever since i got this little guy, i felt like i was just constantly cleaning up his hair. then, i got my paws on the swiffer sweeper. it's a game changer. these heavy duty dry cloths pick up a crazy amount of hair! this is all you. we stopped cleaning and started swiffering.

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at the wilson center and has a new book out "how to lose the information war." nina, you argue we misconceive the nature of russia's disinformation and you have proof of an anti-trump rally that involves the musical les mis. >> we all think disinformation is about cut and dry fakes but that couldn't be farther from the truth. what russia does is manipulate our oe emotions. it uses previous grievances in our society and amplifies them to pit us against one another on both sides of the political spectrum. in my book i describe this flash mob that was unsealed in the 2018 criminal complaint during the russia investigation that talked about the internet research agency and the iar used $80 of facebook ads to support a pro-trump les mis flash mob

outside of the white house on july 4, 2017. so, after the presidential election, russia was continuing to interfere. continuing to drive these fissures, pit us against one another so people start to disengage as russia floods the zone with disinformation, narratives, all these things. people don't want to participate in democracy. that's what disinformation is really about. denigrating the democratic system, which is great for moscow. moscow wants us to be so occupied by our affairs here at home that we're ignoring its adventurism in syria and ukraine and putin can point to that and say, is that the sort of democracy you want? no, you want the authoritarianism i've given you for the past 20-plus years. >> that is fascinating. laura, when you look at this chinese authoritarianism is on the rise, in a sense, a great confidence. you talk about the wolf warriors

in your book. but the goals seem very different. >> yeah, that's right, fareed. i think whereas russia is really looking to engage in chaos and destruction, as nina laid out, china's goals are much more about shaping the external environment in a way that's in its favor and cultivating individuals or narratives it thinks are positive about the chinese communist party. now, it uses some of the same tactics and increasingly i think it's beginning to learn from russian tactics but it uses those to different ends. let me give a couple of examples. we see the chinese party state, its officials and media engaging in information manipulation. some of this is traditionally really aimed at amplifying and creating positive narratives about the chinese communist party. and suppressing unwanted narratives. things that are negative about china. we have seen during covid-19 an

evolution of a more assertive practice, this wolf warrior diplomacy you mentioned around chinese officials and media outlets, taking a much more assertive posture online, directly denigrating the united states, criticizing its handling of coronavirus, criticizing democracy, unable to deal with today's challenges. i think that's about a few things. the first is that, number one, you know, some of the failures at home, we are providing a little right target surface just as we do to russia. i think a lot of this for chinese officials is actually about deflecting blame from their own initial mishandling of the virus. and it's about a good example and good moment where they believe they can hold up chinese authoritarianism as a model in contrast to democracy that seems to be, you know, in their telling of it, mishandling many problems. >> it's very interesting to me because it seems on the one hand

you have china that is rising and trying to shape norms, make people aware of its influence, and russia, on the decline, essentially annialistic. is there a strategy to handle both or does one have to have different strategies for each one? what do you think, nina? >> well, i always advocate for the fact that we need to invest in the root causes of disinformation. reeling those root causes. whether it's coming from china, iran, russia or even domestic disinformation which has certainly been proliferating during the covid-19 crisis, we need to invest in a better information environment. that means giving people the tools they need to navigate this flow of information. investing in media and digital lit racy, not only for school age children but for voters as well. in addition to that, investing in journalism as a public good. you know, the united states only spends about $3 per person per

year on our cooperation for public broadcasting. in comparison so other democracies around the world, that is slim to none. it is embarrassing, frankly, and makes us less resilient. where there is a vacuum, certainly we've seen local news vacuums proliferating recently, that is where disinformation is able to step in and fill that vacuum, fill that vacuum with narratives and information that, frankly, not only a threat to national security, a threat to public health. those are the arguments i would make to counter disinformation whether foreign or domestic. >> laura, any quick additions or would you do it differently? >> no, i completely agree with nina. i'll just add a couple of things there. the first is that i think a public back from u.s. leadership in general has provided a bit of a vacuum for china to assert its

ability to shape global norms and cultivate these partnerships. as nina mentioned, we see that with russia with its adventurism. the last bit, and this really builds on nina's point about media lit ractliteracy, we need build -- against a lot of these tactics. there are a lot of thins we need to do that deal with going more directly at moscow and beijing from a foreign policy and national security perspective. a lot of this really is about building the resiliency within our own society to ensure these tactics don't htake hold. >> nina, laura, fascinating conversation. thank you very much. >> thanks so much. next on "gps," the pandemic has damaged some nations quite deeply economically, but which nations will rise above covid and thrive? the surprising answers from ruchir sharma when we return. [ engine rumbling ]

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magnificent. xfinity x1 just got even better, with peacock premium included at no additional cost. no strings attached. the world bank says the global economy will contract by more than 5% in 2020, thanks to the pandemic. advanced economies have the most to lose, shrinking up to 7%. the question many are asking, which nations are set to win in the new world? morgan stanley investment management's ruchir sharma has the answer. his latest book "the ten rules of successful nations request the request ." you say if there was a gold medal, it would go to germany. why? >> well, fareed, if you really look at how countries have

handled this pandemic, i think of all the major powers, germany would come out tops in terms of it's a mirror image in many ways of america. the governments are so coordinated, at the state level, you have a popular leader who has unified the nation and that's why i think germany emerges really as the winner. it sort of tells you about how important the state's capacity has become in this post-covid world when you're dealing with a crisis like this. >> so, when you look at germany's debt compared to other countries, what you point out is the germans spent in 2008-2009 but as an historic pattern they saved in the good years. that debt position looks very different today, right? >> exactly. so, i think this is the notion which has been forgotten by many people which is the entire idea of having stimulus and running up government debts should be when you have a major downturn.

what most governments, like the united states unfortunately has done, they keep running up deficits, even in the good times. i think what germany has showed us, you save in the good times and when you have a crisis, that's when you spend. therefore, in fact, one of the largest stimulus in the world has been enacted by germany, particularly because it saved before this crisis. even after the crisis is over, it will have one of the lowest government to debt gdps of the countries. >> the country i'm most expressed by is taiwan. purely on the response to covid, taiwan, right next to china, millions of chinese tourists, it has under a dozen deaths. you find fi wan altaiwan on the side is going to be a winner, why? >> because of its tech prowess. i don't think people give taiwan enough credit for that. it has some of the best tech companies in the world.

and the amount it spends on research and development that goes into technology is about the highest of any country in the world as a share of its economy. and today taiwan has possibly the most precious commodity, which is semiconductors. taiwan has some of the most sophisticated tech and semiconductor plants in the world. so, i'm really impressed by taiwan's tech prowess. and it's been the gold medalist of growth. there are few nations in the world, possibly south korea, which have been able to rapidly grow for many decades. taiwan is the only other nation which has been able to do so. i think, therefore, taiwan is a real winner in this environment of greater digitization. >> you have an unusual country on the left which is russia. can you explain why? wi i don't think russia of succeeding in the post-covid era. what stood out for you? >> i think what's interesting about russia, not so much the

growth angle, but just the fact completely by coincidence the environment that we are moving in of much greater globalization of countries trying to get much more self-reliant and not that dependent on foreign capital. putin had been preparing for this kind of an environment. he has been scarred by the '98 russian default crisis. once again, by the kind of sanctions which were imposed in russia in 2014 after what happened in ukraine. so i think what putin has tried to do is create fortress russia. if you look at putin in terms of its government debt, it's reliance on foreign debt to try to grow. today, nearly 100 developing countries in the world are going to the imf and other agencies looking for help, looking for assistance because they've been so badly exposed in this crisis with too much debt, to much

vulnerability. and here is putin who has been building fortress russia by almost cutting russia off from the rest of the world and making it much more self-reliant. >> one country notably absent from your list. we don't have a lot of time. give me a quick sense of why america didn't make it. >> well, i've always been very bullish on america. in fact, i think it's the comeback nation. unfortunately, in this pandemic, the government's response has been exposed a lot, the lack of coordination between so many states in terms of what's going on. and the other part is the amount of debt america keeps on accumulating. they think because they have their own currency, they can print as much as they want. you know, that's a bit of fallacy because when you try and sort of print so much money and you have so much debt and so much government involvement, it undermines the productivity of the economy. so, i think that america is sort of stretching it a bit, even though it has some of the best tech companies in the world,

which play into this environment so well, but it's extensive debt. and the way it's handled this crisis, going back to the opening segment, when we talk about germany, how different the responses have been is what sort of leaves me a bit less impressed about america than i've been in the past. >> ruchir sharma, always a pleasure to hear your insights and your research. come back soon. >> thanks, fareed. next on "gps," pope francis says he's deeply saddened by recent events at turkey's top tourist attraction. he's not alone. what is going on at the hagia sophia. that story when we come back. l k for a heart attack or stroke? even if you're on a statin? statins may lower some risks, but may not be enough. that's why science delivered vascepa. for people who have persistent cardiovascular risk factors and take a statin only vascepa is clinically proven to provide 25% lower risk from heart attack and stroke. don't take vascepa if you're allergic to icosapent ethyl

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secular space. on friday turkey stopped tourist attraction and held muslim prayers once again. it's gone with widespread condemnation. why? joining me is muss staff fa akyol, from the ca it. ol institute and opinion writer for "the new york times." first, let me make sure i have the pronunciation right. we all say hagia sophia but in turkey it's called sophia? >> it's a turkeyfied name. >> it seems quite symbolic. >> it is. this was a dream for turkey's conservatives and islamists for decades because they perceived the decision to convert hagia sophia into a museum as a secular attack on their

religious tradition. secularism had some excesses, indeed, but turning hagia sophia into museum probably wasn't an excess because the building is not just a mosque. as you said, it served five centuries as a mosque but built by vis shans, served as a cathedral for five centuries. in its status as a museum, when you entered you would see both of those heritages. you would see islamic, name of god, prophet muhammad and christ and mary. part of that christian heritage will largely be concealed behind curtains. muslims will enenjoy the building. i'm not offended with that as a muslim myself but i think it's unfair to christians. people like me, a small minority in turkey, have argued for years that if you're going to open hagia sophia, we should open it

for both communities. muslims can pray on friday, christianses can have mass on sunday. that pluralistic solution. unfortunately, pluralism is not what is driving president erdogan's agenda today. >> talk about that political narrative and agenda. is it as extreme as a desire to really expunge turkey's secular tradition? for some of these conservative supporters of president erdogan, the whole idea is that otto turk made a mistake. it should be inded and regarded as a brief phase in a larger kind of ottoman, islamic turkey. >> they do speak of parenthesis in turkey which began by -- and

closed by erdogan. let's be fair, the erdogan -- the era before erdogan, the otto turk legacy had some problems, including a fierce nationalism that didn't help the christian minority. but on certain issues, the secular idea was good. now we are seeing not an explicit rejection of secularism but a gradual toning down of it. and the assertion of aslam and muslimness in the space. and also in ra language of takig the country back. the word conquest is often used. and other muslims in turkey worry this is not helpful, either for turkey itself or the broader image of islam in the world. erdogan was saying if he converted hagia sophia into a mosque, we might face antih

anti-bigotry. he has changed has mind. maybe it has to do with the fact he's facing two new parties founded by his former ministers, criticizing authoritarianism. and the move came at this point, apparently it is a way to call the religious conservatives back to the flag again and its leader, which is president erdogan. >> give us a sense of how to understand turkey today because 25 years ago i would say that the way people, particularly in the west understood turkey was it was a secular, rare example of a secular muslim country. it was a member of nato, a loyal ally of washington's, followed the west's lead, followed washington's lead. it now seems different along every demention. it is pursuing its own independent foreign policy,

often in defiance of washington. it is becoming more islamic and less secular. what does the future hold for turkey? >> well, there are two options. one is that president erdogan's direction will define turkey in the decades ahead. in that sense turkey will just be reversing its tradition of hagamy. they were hegomonic, which built a grudge. in his earlier years when i supported him, president erdogan was just saying that we're not bringing a new hagia. ten years ago it was much more narrative, much more inclusive. it included economic progress, kuf kurds, minorities and so forth. gradually he retreated back to his ideological camp.

now his narrative, making turkey and muslim great again, i call it. that political idea is defined by one leader behind which every patriot should line. that is an awe authoritarian view. if turkey is lucky this will go down in history -- at the end of which turkey will be more plural. i hope that. or it will define the decades ahead. in that sense turkey will be, unfortunately, a prime example of what you call illiberal democracy where ballots are there, elections are happening but freedoms are curbed, freedom of speech as well as freedom of religion as well. >> pleasure to have you on. fascinating to hear your perspective. thank you. >> thank you, fareed. my pleasure. next on "gps," the civil rights hero john lewis was one bloodied when he wanted to cross the edmund pettus bridge.

today his body makes one final trip across the span. i will bring you some hope and humanity, some wise words from john lewis from an interview with me a year ago. when we come back. ♪ ♪ we shall overcome some day ♪ but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; it's important. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. after about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didn't notice before.

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for spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub? rewarded! get a free delivery perk when you order. - [group] grubhub. a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! more than half a century ago a young activist named john lewis was brutally beaten as he peacefully marched across the edmund pettus bridge in selma, alabama. that bridge became a symbol of

the civil rights movement and a place mr. lewis, who died of cancer last week, returned to again and again throughout his life. today his casket makes a final trip across that bridge. i wanted to share my own tribute to the late, great congressman. i sat down with him in his congressional office last year. he was passionate and proud. he talked about growing up, battling injustice. he's the clear -- he was the clear conscience of congress and the embodiment of american leadership at its best. in that interview i asked him about how he overcame fear and suffering to advance the cause of civil rights. his words are really his legacy, so listen in. >> there's a line you used, and it's also in your memoirs, it's also a line martin luther king used in his great speech, that unearned suffering is redemptive. the idea that unearned suffering

is redemptive, i mean, that -- does that come to you from the bible, from your spiritual background? >> it come to me from the bible, from the teaching of jesus. but it also come from the teaching of dr. king and gandhi. that you come to the point where you believe in something that is so right and so necessary, that you're prepared to die for it. >> thank you, john lewis, for always teaching us what is right and what is necessary. and thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. is that net carbs or total?...

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♪ i'm brian stelter and this is a special edition of "reliable sources." let's go to selma, alabama, on a landmark day. from what was once bloody sunday, today a blessed sunday. this is a day when the life of congressman john lewis will be commemorated in the city that was written into the history of civil rights, partly by lewis. and partly with his blood. in just a few minutes, lewis will take his final journey across this bridge, the edmund pettus bridge, perhaps one day to be renamed the john lewis bridge. we'll see a horse-drawn wagon carrying his body traveling alone across the bridge, who will be met by alabama state troopers who will be there to salute him. a marked contrast from these

scenes from 1965 when lewis and other marchers were brutalized on the other side of the bridge. today we'll see the horse-drawn wagon, we'll see this hearse, this journey, from selma to montgomery. we'll go live to montgomery in a few minutes. i want to start today in selma, as we await a short service that will take place at brown chapel, and then a short drive through the streets of selma to the bridge on your screen. let's begin with cnn's martin savidge, in selma at the bridge, joined by a couple of folks who decided to travel quite a distance to be there. martin? >> reporter: they did, in fact, brian, come a long way. one is local, one has come far. let me start with the woman who has come far. your kenzi bond and you came over 1,000 miles from texas to

be here. >> i did, over two days. >> reporter: what brought you here today? why was john lewis so important? >> i wanted to meet him my entire life. because he was a man of such strong conviction. it really means a lot to me. someone who was willing to put basically his life on the time during a trib leurbulent time i 1960s. unfortunately, i was unable to meet him so i was not going to miss this, no matter how far it was. >> reporter: you're born and raised here. john lewis to you means? >> john lewis means change to me. his life, his sacrifices and all that he did was to better the world. not just our country, but the world. and i think that through his continuous fight and his seeing things, the struggle, to put his life on the line for us, tnk