we're having trouble reaching paul begala. we had a problem with the shot so we apologize for that. we had hoped to talk to paul about his new book, but we'll do that later this week. i want to give you a quick reminder. don't miss "full circle." we were on until march 19th was the last time we had done it and then we stopped during covid. technically it became too complicated. we are back starting yesterday. you can catch it stream live, monday, tuesday and friday,

cnn.com/fullcircle. watch it any time on the cnn app or any time ondemand. and get alerts very yeah the cnn app. i want to hand things over to chris cuomo. see what he's working on. the news continues. chris is here for "cuomo prime time." >> it's baby talk because you're doing it with wyatt. coop, you're going to be a great dad. i knew you would. i'm so happy for the love you're getting with your little man, wyatt. some days he'll be doing crazy flips off the diving board and your hair will move like this. anderson, have a good night. i'm chris cuomo, welcom to "prime time." the president wants you to pay attention to the following numbers during this pandemic. >> i want to give you some numbers which are rather spectacular that just came out. the strength in new car sales is also evident in the used car market, soaring demand, literally soaring demand is putting upward pressure on the used car prices. i think most people are anywhere

from surprised to shocked by these numbers. >> i don't know what car sales have to do with fighting a pandemic. the answer is nothing, right? but that's how he started the coronavirus press briefing. i do know there are a lot less people to drive cars because we have 157,000 dead americans. and there are a lot of people who are too sick to drive cars as well because we have over 4 million cases. he says people are shocked and surprised by these numbers. no. i doubt they are shocked by anything. anymore. maybe that you would try to distract from the fact that our lives are being compromised by a pandemic, against which you refuse to do what you could. and i doubt that they're even surprised anymore. that you are well aware of the reality. you cannot plead ignorance. you know what governors are begging you to do.

you dismiss their needs as easily as this. >> i've gone to your rallies, i've talked to your people. they love you. they listen to you. they listen to every word you say. they hang on your every word. they don't listen to me or the media or fauci. they think we're fake news. they want to get your advice from you. so when you say everything is under control, don't worry about wearing masks, many of them are older people, mr. president. >> what's your definition of control? >> giving them a false sense of security. 1,000 ameri-cacans are dying a . >> it's true. it is what it is. >> that is the biggest thing he's said to you. that's an expression here in new york, specifically in queens where he and i come from. it is what it is in this context is it is a pandemic. a pandemic that is being allowed to run rampant by his inaction.

that is what it is. but we test so much. maybe we test too much. they say in the books and manuals. no, there is no manual. there is no book, okay? the reality of testing is it takes too long. and it's not being done in the right places in the right ways. so our kids are going to be out of school thanks to his inaction in too many places, too many kids. he is right. it is what it is. a pandemic that is eating us alive. not a hoax. not disappearing. a pandemic that we are handling worse than too many other places because it is what it is, and more importantly, he is who he is.

>> we are continuing to monitor and moner it particular hot spots across the south, southwest and the west. and we're seeing indications that our strong mitigation efforts are working, very well, actually. the recent rise in cases has not been accompanied by a significant increase in deaths. >> he is ditied to the script because he has no independent grasp other than what people are telling him. now, the shame goes to the people who are writing these messages for him to read to you that they know are deceptive. they are not doing everything they can do to fight this pandemic. i thought the carnage was supposed to stop with this administration. more crime, according to him now.

tougher economy, according to him now. and a pandemic that was not of trump's making but is certainly out of control because of trump's inaction. the daily average of deaths has roughly doubled. when other countries have seen it reduce. 500-plus additional deaths a day. and the president says that's insignificant? he won't say when all americans will have access to the rapid covid test because he doesn't know and it's not his focus. we are looking at that very strongly. how do you look at something strongly? hmm. they're doing nothing. why does the uk have 90-minute test turnaround and capability and we don't? we are the richest country in the world with the greatest resources. that was his pitch.

maga was about manufacturing at its best. i would argue that it was a dog whistle to a culture war that he wants to fight about us versus them, including race and religion, which it certainly was early on and it is every chance he gets a chance to make it that, but at its best, it was about bringing back manufacturing. isn't this the perfect time to kickstart companies? what's worse than that inaction, his insane pushing of states to send our kids to schools that he knows are not safe. his kid's not going back to school like that. i guarantee you. that is what it is, too. it is unsafe to send kids to places that can't space, can't trace cases they get, and can't even test in time. did you hear that a second grader just tested positive after attending classes on the

first day of school? his or her classmates and teacher now quarantining for 14 days. how many of us, including my family -- i'm going through this just like you. how many of us are going to have to decide to keep our kids out of school? and then what? who's going to help with the cost for so many of you not being able to work? what's it gonna do to our kids? how is it not going to result in imbalances in places where people have money and they're able to put together these pods. you hearing about pods? families getting together. grouping, who is excluded, whose got the money to pay for extra teachers because the schools can't do the work in america. this is the time for government to work for us. this is why we have a federal government. so we must keep pressing for it to do what it can. and that means we can only spend

so much time complaining about the status quo. because we only know what we show. what can we do? let's turn to a very valuable mind, okay? former white house ebola response coordinator -- of course, in the obama administration. ron klain. not just theory, practice. they had to do this. thank you for joining the show again tonight. let's start off with the president's greatest defense to what is being done. he says we test more than anyone else in the world. india's got almost 1.5 billion. they don't test as much as we have. is that the correct answer and proof of purpose of this administration? >> well, it may be proof of a lack of purpose of the administration, chris. the fact that we're six months into this and still really don't have a plan at all. the u.s. is about middle of the pack in terms of per capita testing.

we're pretty low in terms of per capita testing among well-developed and wealthy nations. i think the fact that the president wants to compare america's health care system to india, i don't think that's really a comparison. most americans want to abide, want to live with. the bottom line is we have people in this country contracting covid at record rates, dying at record rates. we're losing americans here, right now, at about the same pace we were losing americans in world war ii. we certainly didn't hear fdr tell people it is what it is. >> well, listen to the president here talking about why the numbers work in favor of the argument that he's doing a good job. >> yeah, take a look at some of these charts. >> i'd love to. >> okay. we're going to look. >> let's look. >> and if you look at death -- >> start to go up again. >> well, right here, united states is lowest in numerous categories. we're lower than the world. >> lower than the world?

>> we're lower than europe. >> in what? in what? >> take a look. right here. here's case death. >> oh, you're doing death as a proportion of cases. i'm talking death as a proportion of population. that's where the u.s. is really bad. much worse than south korea, germany, et cetera. >> you can't do that. you have to -- >> why can't i do that? >> you have to go by -- you have to go by where -- look, here is the united states. you have to go by the cases. >> all right. let's help people understand this, okay? here's my simple explanation and then you get into it from a policy perspective, the reality of this. so the interviewer is saying as a percent of population, we have too many people dying. the president says, yeah, but not by percentage of cases. now, why is one answer better than the other? the simple explanation is, well, we have a great health care system. so the fact that we are able to save people that may be saved -- may not be saved in other parts of the world because our health care system, our clinicians, our

first responders are so good does not excuse the fact that we have so many death as a function of our population. is that a fair assessment? >> it is. and there are more factors to it. for example, the case mortality rate is higher in some european countries because their populations are older. they have a higher percentage of ole people, for example. they also have some denser cities. the bottom line, though, is the key number most americans want to know is how likely am i do die from covid, right? that's the bottom line. if i'm walking around today in america, what's my chance of dying from covid. and that statistic, the one that jonathan swan in that interview was pushing. america has one of the worst numbers on planet earth. you are more likely as an american to die from covid than you are in almost any other country. >> now, part of that -- ron -- >> new cases of covid today in paris, texas than in paris, france. >> fair point. >> more cases of covid in the smallest state in the country than in the entire country of

spain. so, you know, we have it very bad here, and comparing our country to other countries shows how much the trump response has failed. >> and just to be clear, it's not about cherry picking numbers that make united states look good. there are just as many that make us look bad. this is about process and strategy of attack. that's why the testing matters so much to me. we are testing in a way that is so ineffective that we are exposing our most vulnerable, the oldest, and we have too many people who are getting caught by surprise. and this president refuses to acknowledge that. here's the proof. >> here's one right here. united states. you take the number of cases -- now, look, we're last. meaning we're first. >> last, i don't know what we're first in? >> again, it's cases. >> okay. >> and we have cases because of the testing. if you take a look at this other chart, look, this is our testing, i believe, this is the testing. >> yeah, we do more tests. >> now, wait a minute. >> don't we get credit for that?

and because we do more tests, we have more cases. >> this matters, okay? because i can't tell you, ron, how many people say, will you stop saying that testing is the problem? yeah, in some places they don't get the results that fast, but we test more than anywhere else in the world, chris. he can't do better than best. what's the reality? >> the reality is that about 80% of the tests are taking a week or longer for people to get results and that makes -- adds up to the testing total, but it's pretty useless. if you've been walking around with covid for a week, you've probably infected a lot of other people at your workplace or wherever you're hanging out and whatnot. the fact that we're so slow on getting the tests back, makes the results, for all intents and purposes, pretty useless. the president talks about kids going back to school. kids are going to go back to school. we're not going to know if they

have the disease or exposed off or not, bringing it home or not. that's the big testing gap, right? even when we test people, we get them positive, we don't have contact tracers to identify who that person's been in contact with so we can isolate cases and keep the disease from spreading. bottom line is we're, you know, eight, nine months into this in total, president still doesn't have a plan. he has charts and statistics and numbers, but where is the plan to get this under control? >> he is insisting that we test too much. and, again, i am all about testing because i think it's all we have. all we have is the ability to figure out who we need to remove from society so they can heal and not make anybody else sick. it's the only pro-- the problem actually how much we test. here it is. >> there are those that say you can test too much.

you do know that. >> who says that? >> oh, just read the manuals, read the books. >> manuals? what manuals. >> read the books. >> what books? >> now, he went into bs mode to justify it, but let me give him a better defense than he gave himself. ron, we only have a lot of cases because we're so good at measuring how many people are sick in this country. these other countries stink compared to us. they haven't tested as much. that's the only reason we have more cases. they ave a ton more cases than we do. they're just not counting them as well as we are. >> so, first of all, chris, they have zero cases in spain yesterday. zero. zero cases in france. zero. zero. we had 70,000. even if we're picking up more because we're testing, 70,000 to zero is not because of testing. that's the first thing. second thing is, forget the case counts. forget all these things. let's go to people who are dying. we're losing almost 1,000 americans a day, almost every single day.

no matter how you count the tests and the cases and the rates, you know, that's a death toll that is world war ii levels. death toll in the united states. and for the president to say that just is what it is is not presidential leadership. >> well, it would be, if he was saying, look, the pandemic is what it is. it's going to eat as many of us as it can, that's why we're going to do "x." the second part. it's fine you recognize, yeah, that's what it is. great. let's not be in awe of it. let's attack it. he doesn't do the second part. now, this other point that i want to make. this is another of his strong arguments about why he's being unfairly treated here. important for people to get it. here it is. >> i think we've done an incredible job between the ventilators and stopping very infected people from china coming in. meaning putting the ban on china, which, frankly, nobody wanted me to do. practically nobody. because it was very early in january. then putting the ban on europe. not an easy thing to do when you put a ban on europe.

that's a big thing. we would have probably lost hundreds of thousands of lives more had i not done that. banning china from coming in -- >> but it was already in here by the time -- it was already here. by the time you banned china, it came in through europe. >> nobody knew the extent. >> what is your read on it? he banned from china. a lot of people on the political left were against it. he did it. did he make the right move, did he make the right move with europe or is the issue timing? >> well, think it's a bunch of things. first of all, 44 countries banned travel from china before we did. we were the 45th. and the ban wasn't complete. 40,000 people came here from china after he put that ban in place. he said it was in january. early in january in that interview, it actually took effect in february. that's just another lie, another mistake. on europe, the fact of the matter is most of the cases we had on the east coast, most of the cases there in new york came from europe, not from china. and he didn't act on that until the middle of march when the

disease was already here in large numbers. all these travel restrictions were smart things to do. they should have been done on time. they should have been done more completely. when he imposed the travel restriction on china, i said before congress that this wasn't a travel ban, it was a travel band-aid. it bought time. the real question, chris, isn't about the travel restrictions, it's what did he do with the time that the travel restrictions bought? did they get testing running, did he get tracing running? did he get kboimt to our hospitals, our health care workers. we probably lost 1,000 health care workers in america to covid because they weren't protected. did he do any of those things? that's the shame here. whatever the travel restrictions bought us in terms of time he squandered with inaction. >> here's his defense. >> nobody knew what this thing was all about. this has never happened before. 1917, but it was a totally different -- it was a flu in that case, okay? but other than 1917, there's

never been anything like this. >> you guys all missed it. fauci, birx, all the big brains said it's not going to be a big problem here and then when it started to come here they said, nah, we're going to be okay. so he's no different than anybody else. >> well, of course, that's a lie also. dr. nancy messonnier at the centers for disease control told reporters in a february 25th briefing that the pandemic was coming. it was inevitable. that she warned her own family to prepare for a major disruption of u.s. life. the day after she did that, donald trump basically prevented her from speaking to the press again. so this isn't just a question of he didn't see it coming. people in his own administration told him it was here, told him it was about to explode, and he did everything he could to suppress the truth, to suppress the facts, and to tell people it was going to go away. right? it wasn't just that he didn't see it coming, chris, he was either telling us, oh, it's 15 cases going down to 5.

it's going to go away like a miracle. it's going to go away by easter. it's going to go away when it gets warm. it's going to go away by memorial day. time and again he was wrong. and what's more, after it came and it raged, he stood there in may and june and said everybody should reopen everything right away. after we learned the painful lessons of new york and new jersey and we didn't share those lessons with florida and georgia and texas. instead, he egged though states on to ignore what had been learned in the northeast and open as quickly and rapidly as possible. as recklessly as possible. >> and now he's doing it with schools. >> he saw it coming. >> i'll tell you what, ron, schools are different. you know, i'm a parent. i got three kids at different states of school and i'm telling you, families are not gonna send their kids to schools if they're afraid of them getting sick and bringing it home. this is gonna be a problem. it's different than business. and it is gonna be a time for act or you're gonna see a lot of

rogue actors doing it their own way. ron klain, thank you for the guidance. i look forward to using you much on this show to help us understand where we are and where we need to be. god bless. stay healthy, you and your family. >> thanks, chris. thank you. now, what happens when government doesn't do what you need it to do? you start doing things on your own. for better and worse. my next guests are defying orders to keep their businesses shut down because of covid, okay? they've already been arrested for reopening their gym in new jersey. and they are not giving up their fight. even under the threat of losing their -- that's them breaking into their own place. they're not breaking into somebody else's. they will make the case for why they are in the right. next on "prime time." alright let's roll. c'mon pizza's here. whoa! is that shaq? this is my new pizza the shaq-a-roni and it's bigger than pizza because for every shaq-a-roni sold, $1 is donated to the papa john's foundation for building community.

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two new jersey gym owners were arrested and they were charged with defying the state's covid restrictions last week. but that didn't stop them from doing this. now, just to be clear, they're not breaking into somebody else's place, this is their place. they're kicking in the plywood barricade at the front door of their gym because they want customers to get in. they say that at the atillas gym that they have done what they were supposed to do to make it

safe the way that other businesses that they are similar to, in their own estimation, did, but that they are not allowed to open, all right? this is a court battle. they could go to jail. now you have the state a.g.'s office there in jersey recommending a fine of up to 10 grand a day. so this has become about more than business. and i want these men to make the case because they're somewhat representative of what's happening all across this country. ian smith and frank trumbetti are the owners and they're here now. how are you doing, fellas. >> good evening, chris, how are you? >> so, look, the best case they have on you is this is about health. it's not about not liking exercise. it's not about not liking you. it's about keeping people safe and you should respect that and you're not. your response. one at a time. >> i would say that actually when this first started, they asked to two weeks. when we first opened up, we gave them two months. we gave them until may 18th.

at two months, they had no plan. plain and simple, they had no plan, we did. we actually wanted to prove that we could open up safe. they actually say that liquor stores are essential. that actually every place that you can go into home depot and lowe's is essential. i disagree with that, okay? we're all essential. everybody's essential. and bottom line is this isn't about opening up a gym. they have violated everyone's constitutional rights. we all have the right to make a living. we all have a right to actually do what we want to do as americans. we are promised liberty. and they have actually put such oppressive restrictions on us that it's just unacceptable to us. >> and, ian, they say they agree with you, and you have the right obviously, but you have to balance that right with the risk to people who will come in there, be breathing all over each other in too tight a space. a gym is different than other places because people are

getting so exercised. excuse the pun. it's not about restricting your liberty. it's about keeping people safe. counter? >> i would argue that the gym is a place to keep people safe. this is a place where people come to build their immune systems, to build the strength of their bodies, physically on the outside and the inside. this is a place where people come to relieve stress. this is a place we have soldiers that have served our country who come to deal with their ptsd. this is a place we have recovering drug addicts who use this as an outlet. this is a place that saves lives. this is a place that creates health and fosters health. >> how do you keep somebody from being sick? so i come in, i'm sick. and, look, everybody knows that i'm a fitness guy and i have a lot of friends in the gym business and a lot of people in this kind of pain and i understand and i feel sorry for them. >> you would not be allowed in. you go to a home depot, a lowe's, liquor store, they don't do anything but require a mask and make you stay six feet

apart. when you come into your gym, you stand in front of the biometric scanner that takes your temperature. you take a disinfectant pen and you put it in the dirty bin so we can disinfect it. you're handled a bottle of a disinfectant that is from an eco lab proven to actually kill the coronavirus in 45 seconds. when it's diluted at 4 ounces per gallon. we actually have an air scrubber in here, which is an auto -- a mobile decontamination unit that actually circulates approximately 10,000 cubic feet of air per minute through a uv light run through generators that provides 99.9% chemical-free and virus-free air. there is science that says the masks don't work. plain and simple, it is a safe place to be. it is not a confined space. we actually have 25-foot ceilings in our gym. they have actually taken all gyms and they've actually considered them as one. they are not all equal.

i agree. >> well, the state says that, too. the state see that, too. look, i don't agree with you about masks, but that's -- that's not what we're talking about here. they say, well, no, that's not right. we've allowed outdoor drills. we are allowing one-on-one indoor martial arts, ian, allowing yoga instructions, whatever you want to do outside as long as you can follow certain rules. why is that not enough? >> you can actually full-contact fight outside. you're an athlete. you actually are one of the tough guys out there. if we're actually sparring outside and i punch you in the stomach and i knock your mouthpiece out, you're going to spit in my face. but governor murphy says you can't get covid that way because it's outside. >> somehow walking into a facility that is highly regulated that has a 15-point safety protocol that goes above and beyond what any business in the state of new jersey and i would argue any business in the country has done so far, you

can't get -- you can get covid just because, what, there's dumbbells in here? it's very inconsistent. >> so here's my concern. i think you got a good case, i'll be honest. i don't think it's one by one. i don't think there's malice on the part of the state. obviously. but sometimes they go too far. here's the problem. you lose here because they are the regulatory authority. and what do you do about $10,000 a day? and what do you do if they want to lock you up because they have the law on their side of keeping people safe during a pandemic? >> first of all, executive orders are not laws. so bottom line is we'll fight this to the end. and you actually -- we listened to your part that came on before this and you seem like you're a big numbers guy. actually, i would like to put some numbers out there for you. are you aware actually when this first started there were 2.1 million people in the united states in long-term care facilities that represent 0.6% of the population, but on july

17th, that 0.6% of the population represented 53.3% of all the deaths that occurred in the united states from covid. >> yes. >> and that's because the governors are not doing their job, okay? in new jersey alone, from june 1st the percentage of told deaths in new jersey in long-term care facilities was 42.3%. now, you would think they had control of it because they don't let anybody into long-term care facilities since march 13th when they started executive order 104. okay? 107, i'm sorry. and then when you go back and you would think they'd go down. so from june 1st, the actual total number, percentage of deaths was 42.3%. now fast forward to june 23rd. on june ered, t23rd, the total percentage of death in new jersey went from long-term care facilities rose to 49.7%.

and i brought you to the media's attention for 23 state days more people died out of the 70,000 residents in new jersey that live in long-term care facilities than the 9 million people that he calls the knuckleheads, okay? we're not doing what we're supposed to do, okay? and then that day on june 23rd, he actually would always admit how many people died in long-term care facilities. >> right. >> how many people died in the general population. on june 23rd, it peaked with 57 total deaths in new jersey. blessed souls that he says. >> right. >> god help them. okay, 50 of them died in long-term care facilities, 7 out of the other 9 million people in general population. >> but, frank, i don't think it's just about -- >> there is a task force. there is one more thing. there is a task force. >> right. >> the u.s. army has a jtf 57 covid-19 task force that was disassembled on june 24th.

that task force's job was inside of the long-term care facilities in the state of new jersey to document all new cases and document all of the deaths. the state of new jersey has not updated any of their deaths in long-term care facilities since they disassembled that on june 24th. >> frank, i think it's -- >> look it up. that's the facts. >> frank, i am not questioning you. >> you're a numbers guy. that's the facts. the bottom line. >> frank, i'm not questioning you. hold on a second. >> we're being blamed -- >> i'm not blaming you for the way that you are suggesting. let me just -- let me just balance it out. >> not you. >> not you. >> i'm talking about we're being villainized as small businesses in general that we're responsible for the spread, but over 50% of the deaths are coming from places that are supposed to be under our governor's control. >> i understand and there's no question, frank -- frank, give me a chance. give me a chance, frank. >> we have had 15,009 visits to our facility. zero pods cases. nobody's sick. we will actually have the rapid

-- you just said something about the rapid tests. >> yeah. >> i will have 250 rapid tests available to be administered by a nurse on thursday. >> rapid tests are great. >> who else does that? >> i don't know. look, i'm saying -- i think you guys have a good case. i get their general suspicion of places where you're going to be congested and people are going to be breathing all over each other, but one size doesn't always fit all. rapid tests with quick turnaround or point of service turnaround would be very important. what you're saying about long-term care facilities, i'm not questioning it. we did the wrong job by the most vulnerable people. and even though obviously the oldest and the most fragile will die the most in a situation like this, it doesn't mean that you did it the right way. >> you're knocking trump because of the total numbers. >> i'm not -- >> you are knocking trump because of the total numbers. 53.3% of the deaths. >> hold on, frank -- >> 53.3% of the deaths, 0.6% of the population. bottom line, that [ bleep ] knew

what he was talking about. >> frank, watch your mouth. we're on television. >> sorry, sir. >> don't worry about it. i get the passion. what i'm saying is this. one, death isn't the only metric. i'm not blaming the president for the pandemic. i'm not blaming the president when people die except there's a lot more they could be doing. if the government were doing what you're doing in your gym, we'd be in a very different place. if they were killing themselves to figure out the best way to test, we'd be in a different place. i'm not blaming you for that kind of stuff. it's not about the president. >> no, but we're being blamed by the governor for being reckless when we're doing more than what he does in long-term care facilities. >> i get your argument. i get your argument and i think you should have a fair hearing on it. >> it's out of control. all that happens is conclusionary statements with no science and data to back up that our gym or any gym or anyway small business, for that matter, is more responsible for deaths and the spread of covid than any other. >> all i'll say, ian, i don't think death is the right metric.

because it's about -- look, obviously death matters most, right? >> cases aren't the right metric? what is the right metric? >> death. >> healthy people are not dying. healthy people are not dieing. >> that's not true. >> i lost my mother from this. i lost my mother for this. >> i'm very sorry for that. >> you're barking up the wrong tree. >> i'm not barking up any tree. >> my mother got it in the hospital where they're supposed to protect. >> i'm very sorry about that and i'm sorry she got it and i'm sorry she succumbed to it i'm not attacking you for it. i'm saying death isn't the only way to measure the risk. i'm very sorry about you lose your mother, frank, and i'm sure you can understand that. i don't want to blame anybody -- i'm saying getting sick is what they're worried about. not that you're going to kill people. but that -- >> no, they're worried about deaths. they're worried about deaths. bottom line is, it's like the flu. if you take death -- if you take death, 0.6% of the poppedlation that is responsible for 53.3% of

the deaths. >> there are a lot of cases. people getting sick than different with the flu and a lot of weird after-effects. we've got to take it seriously. that doesn't change the fact that you guys may be doing things to keep people safe. >> it is important to take very seriously, and i think what needs to happen is government need to the start working with the people in order to resume life while taking things seriously. >> i agree. >> when we opened back up in may, we opened very publicly for a reason because there was no plan present and we decided that we were going to put forth a model to work with government. to this day, we've had no outreach from government, even though our plan has been proven to be pretty effective. is it perfect? no. but you would have thought by now that the new jersey government would reach out and say, hey, let me send a health official down there. let's talk about this. let's get back on track.

>> i don't disagree with that either. i would say this, ian. >> no, shut up and listen to my executive orders. if you dare defy them, you will be punished and financially ruined. >> and obviously that's not how the administration of justice should work and you should have the chance to make your case. i don't think it should have to go that far. i don't want to see you guys wine up in court to do this. but you're also allowing yourselves to be a little politicized on this, frank. i didn't mention the president. it has nothing to do with the president. >> i am the least political person. >> you brought it up in this interview and it had no place in this. that's on you, frank. be careful. if you get seen as a political actor then you're going to get treated as a political combatant. >> and that's okay, chris, because people that have known me for my entire life, i'm 51 years old know that i never had a political bone in my body. i couldn't give a crap about politics. i thought blue states were bordered by water and red states weren't, that simple. bottom line is -- >> it's true. >> and that is true. everybody that knows me and that

-- >> frank, look -- >> i made my house of glass and you guys haven't found anything to come after me with. >> frank, i'm covering it because i think it's indicative of what's happened in a lot of places in the country. i'm going to stay on your story. you guys are welcome back here to let me know what the next iteration is. it's not about red or blue for me. it's about what's right for people to get healthy and get businesses open and live their lives. so you got an opportunity here when you want it, all right? and i'm really sorrying about your mother, frank. i'm so sorry that you lost your mom. all right. ian smith and frank trumbetti. now, to be honest, if they want to make it political, we can in just this one way. if we had the rapid testing in this country that they have in the uk, i don't think that trumbetti and smith have the problem at atilla's gym that they had in new jersey. why? we have a cultural reality how quickly we can detect whether or not somebody has this and we have to move them out of the population. 90 minutes. it would fix a lot of things and

keep us safer than we are today. william schaffner, scientist, doctor, what does he think? next.

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now, those guys are characters, but they represent something that's happening with a lot of businesses around this country, so let's bring in dr. william schaffner back with us tonight. i agree, doc, that the one size shouldn't fit all and i agree a little of the preliminary let's shut everything down wound up catching the good and the bad in terms of its effect. and reopening, i understand the frustration of people saying, so i can kick box outside, but i can't have anybody inside, even though they're not going to be touching each other? i can do, you know, yoga or i can do one-on-one training, but

i can't have people 15 feet away from each other with nobody up on them. i get their frustrations. what is your take? >> i think their frustration is understandable and it's emblematic of so many people who has individuals are going out not wearing masks, not obeying social distancing. they don't really understand it. and, sure, there are inconsistencies. because one size does not fit all. but in emergent matters, we have one size. and that's the way we have to implement kind of large-scale public health interventions. in order to interrupt the transmission of this virus. >> understood. health has to come first, but, you know, look, the problem for the state is they've made ex-sens exceptions to the rules and changes within that same genre of businesses and then it starts to get a little more imbalanced in terms of what's fair and what isn't. when you think about a gym, would you go to a gym?

and if not, why? >> i wouldn't go to a gym, but then i haven't gone hardly anywhere except briefly to the supermarket, and i go to my office, but i'm totally enclosed while i'm there. i'm away from everyone else. so my contact with other people has been really marginal and very, very rare now for several months. >> so those guys say you're better off in your gym than the supermarket. everybody's touching the food. they don't wear the gloves. you don't know who is sick and who isn't. the ventilation system is not as good. the people working there don't oklahoma the same way that they do because they don't have to. their gym is cleaner even than a supermarket. how much does it matter how a place approaching its protocols? >> of course it matters a great deal. and it sounds as though these fellas have a good case. i -- i -- i'm no attorney -- >> right. >> but their constitutional case sounds terribly weak, but i get

where they're coming from as human beings and as people who are trying to run their operation in the best possible way. i'll take exactly what they say at face value. they're in a difficult situation. it sounds to me as though the health department hasn't had a reasonable conversation with them either. >> right. and also, look, they told us early on -- i don't know if this is still true, doc. you can tell me this now. that you don't get it through sweat. this virus doesn't transmit through sweat. do we still believe that? >> i don't know anything in particular about sweat, but that's something that can be taken care of in a circumstance like that by disinfection and good hand hygiene, right? we still think that this virus is transmitted through close personal contact over a prolonged period of time indoors. that's that's the major way it's transmitted.

we think now also that inanimate surfaces play a role. probably not as important as we thought initially. and we're talking about airborne transmission that is transmission at a distance. probably also happens on occasion. not very important. it's still close in contact in a prolonged period of time in an enclosed space is where most of the transmission occurs. that's the highway of transmission. the others are side streets. >> the overriding factor you've mentioned many times, it deserves to be repeated. if we had better, quick or what we call rapid testing and turnaround of results we would be in a different place, with our schools, our gyms, businesses, reality. we would know in almost realtime who we have to take care of and who we don't. and that would free up a lot of activity that now we don't know enough to be safe with. dr. schaffner, thank you. we have to continue talking sense. it's the only way we'll get

where we need to be. thank you, doctor. we'll be right back. ng, aetna never did. we're always here to help you focus on your health. because it's always, time for care.

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experience the breathtaking beauty of the grand canyon, when their eyes widen in amazement as old faithful bursts into the sky, when they gaze upon yosemite's towering sequoias, their love of country grows stronger and they know that every american has truly a duty to preserve this wondrous inheritance. >> yosemites. you know, that park where only jewish people are. historian doris kearns goodwin joins me right now. a favorite of "prime time." >> glad to be with you, chris. >> you and i should take a trip some time to the yosemite park so we can visit with all our

jewish friends are there. he'd later say nothing like this since roosevelt. this president loves to compare himself to the greats, but that's not really his job. it's yours. what do you see in this? >> i think that's true. it's no the sitting president's responsibility or should it be a contest between him and the other presidents. it's true the great act is a good thing to do to make the deteriorating parks get repaired to give a lot of jobs. but if you want to make a comparison, teddy roosevelt is the one who set aside 200 million of these parks in the first place. that made grand canyon safe from the protection of mining interest. the important thing is teddy stimulated a movement. part of a movement. that was the legacy he left. and almost all the changes that have taken place in the society that really matter are when there's an outside movement. civil rights movement under lbj

was part of. the anti-slavery movement part of lincoln. the women's movement and gay rights movement. when they connect to people in power something happens. that's what we should be looking for. that's the moment we're at right now, the possible movement out there with the black lives matter, and we need leadership. we can compare i think mr. trump to fdr. that's the really important comparison that so far he hasn't made. >> right. about seeing the challenge and what you do with it in the moment. the great american outdoors act he was signing was not just a bipartisan bill, but it was introduced by john lewis, a man he's gone out of his way to disparage, as if it were equal that lewis didn't come to my inauguration so i'm not going to his funeral. the idea of embracing bigger movements. the president spoke about that in a way. i want to play it. >> i did more for the black community than anybody with a possible exception of lincoln. whether you like it or not.

people say, oh, that's interesting. >> you believe you did more than lyndon johnson who passed the civil rights act? how? >> i got prison reform done. >> lyndon johnson. >> i've done things. >> well -- >> he passed the civil rights act. >> how has it worked out? >> you think the civil rights act was a mistake? >> help me with that. >> well, how has it worked out? the south was legally desegregated. it provided the right to vote to millions of americans. lyndon johnson would be the first one in the speech and civil rights work to say the heroes of those acts were the people in the civil rights movement. when he embraced it and asked for civil rights and asked for voting rights, it was because it was not just good for black americans or northern or southern americans. it was good for all of america to do this thing. when abraham lincoln was called a liberator because of

emancipation proclamation, he said, no, don't call me that. it was the anti-slavery movement that did it all. i was an instrument. he was far more than an instrumi instrument because he gave voice and leadership to what had to be done. it's that connection between the -- and john lewis is emblem attic of that outside movement. to not be able to say he was a great man when we've understood what he did on that bridge, that bridge that then produced the great speech that lbj gave on where he embraced the anthem of the civil rights movement. "we shall overcome." it's incomprehensible to me not to understand who he was and what he represented. >> what will be interesting is how people like you and other historians define what trump did in the moment of this pandemic. every president who has a crisis on their watch becomes defined on how they handle it. we have never seen someone deny the existence of a crisis and push an attitude of inaction

the way this one has. it will be interesting to see how it is remembered. it may get written sooner. thank you for your perspective. you're always welcome on this show. we'll be right back. behind every 2020 census taker's mask is a friendly neighbor. they'll be coming by to ask simple questions that inform how billions in federal funds are spent on local services every year for the next decade. time is running out. shape your future. start here at 2020census.gov.