and how did it most -- what's the most way to the most damage? and as that became clearer and clearer, we concluded we can't continued to have these large rallies. here we are the rest of the world, the places that have done extremely well in terms of dealing with this covid crisis around the world. you know, we have the five largest countries in europe have a population larger than the united states of america. yet, we're in the mung of august losing 1,000 lives a day and they're losing 57 a day, combined, combined, all of them, combined. so, as we learn more and we did learn more and why, by march and april, we knew a heck of a lot more, why weren't we doing what needed to be done? why are we being told we have

plenty of protective gear? and the one big thing that i did push a lot on -- i wasn't the only one -- was on the need for testing and tracing. and moving rapidly to make sure that you had the capacity to test. and trace before it got so out of control. we need to do that now. but here's the thing i'll end with this. i apologize for keeping you. >> [ inaudible ]. >> the thing that i just don't quite understand is when it's clear that some of the things that the president says are simply not true, relating to this crisis, and when enormous pressure is put on professionals in the administration from the

cdc to nih, across the board, why do we think, god willing when we get a vaccine that is good, works p why do we think the public's going to line up to be able to take the injection? we've lost so much confidence in the american people in what's said. because we're finding out again today, plasma doesn't quite work the way we were told it was. a lot of pressure put on that person to say that. this president has said so many things that are untrue that are just wrong in order to do anything -- he looks at it in one way. if the stock market is high and it's moving, and we're reducing the number of people who are in real trouble economically, then it doesn't matter what i say. that's the objective.

that's the objective. the objective is to keep the american people safe so we can begin to get back to normal, rebuilding our economy and bringing back economic growth. thank you all very much. all right. former vice president joe biden speaking in wilmington, delaware and speaking to reporters. nia malikau-henderson with us. >> well, i think the underscoring here of joe biden's philosophy that the economy cannot get fixed until the virus is under control. he is right. he's been saying that for a very long time. and i think this is going to be a message you see from him consistently over the next nine weeks. the other point i would make to what i think the vice president was doing here through his

comments about the president's handling of coronavirus, which, again, the weakest spot in the president's record with the american public right now. joe biden using this opportunity to put that back front and center and doing so in a way that ties it with character. joe biden said in his convention. character is on the ballot. he tied directly this notion of donald trump, who is not seen as honest and trustworthy by the american people, directly to he's mishandling of the coronavirus and the misinformation getting out there. those two things taking the most prominent issue in people's lives right now, the coronavirus, and attaching it to a key character metric of honesty and trustworthiness. that is the argument in a nut shell that joe biden is going to take to the american people for the next nine weeks. >> and he made the point,nia, that he's worried americans are not trustworthy of the president or of the government when it

comes to thes idea of a vaccine. there's not a vaccine but certainly a lot of hope there will be one. and the question is are people going to get it? and he's worried they're not trusting president trump to go ahead and get it. >> there were already millions skeptical of vaccines generally. now you have a administration that's been contradictory in terms of advice, health care advice, plasma. basically saying that was a miracle. and then having to back off some of the claims about that. i thought this was a great speech because it's meeting people where they are living right now in terms of juggling school, their kids, working, and having to really navigate this new reality. a lot of kids going back to school, obviously this week trying to figure out are they in school, on zoom with 30 other

kids and one teacher? i thought that was really smart. you have somebody who's said kids should go back to school. doesn't have a national plan and wants to talk more about violence in the street. so, here was joe biden basically talking to parents about everything they're talking about with their family and friends right now, which is are their kids learning in the way that say the should? if they're having to do zoom. are they back sliding in terms of their education and mental faculties because of all the stresses and strains of this new reality? i thought this was a smart play by biden, dealing with the real issues that people are experiencing because of covid right now. >> dana, what did you think? >> i think definitely what david andnia said. the way i was looking at him and thinking about it as i was listening to him speak is he was

taking the reigns of the campaign conversation and trying to pull them back to where he and his campaign wants it and that is to talk about, as david said, character. but i would use another word and that is leadership. to remind people and to implore people to where we are right now, that kids can't go to schools, parents are having to figure out whether to stay home with their kids or give up their job and how to deal with that financially. all of those issues people are dealing with as we seek, in a very real way. his argument was this was all preventible. not that the pandemic or the virus was but the ability to deal with this could have been different had you had a white house and a president -- now, he used the term angel dust. i'm not sure he meant to use that term because that's a street name for a drug. but he was trying to say the president thought magically it

would disappear, which is not how it works. whether orina not the former vi president is going to be able to hold on to the reigns and steer the conversation where he wants it is an open question when you have donald trump, who's trying to throw things like should candidates take a drug test and never mind the law and order message he's pushing. >> even when the conversation leaves coronavirus, let's say joe biden going to kenosha and talking about the issues that have taken place there. you heard him today address that saying he is going to help heal, he's going to try to bring people together. even there, he wants to have this leadership comparison of what president trump just did in kenosha yesterday. even as the conversation may go to different topics, the leadership she was talking about, i think you see clearly on display in biden's intent. >> just one thing to give a

little bit more meat on that bone. he was asked about mike schmidt's incredible reporting and his new book about the idea that the president went to walter reed, there were all sorts of questions. he didn't bite. he didn't go there. his quote was something along the lines of nothing this administration does is normal. but wouldn't speculate on that. so, he's continuing to stay above the fray, even though-you're going up against donald trump, that doesn't always work. >> i think the contrast, him standing up there, taking questions or not fighting with reporters, such a contrast from what we see from the current president engaging in conspiracy theories, often not telling the truth and there is joe biden having good manners in terms of dealing with complicated issues and reporters as well. >> look, he showed a mastery of the issues.

there's a lot of anger out there amongst his support rbz. i wonder if he needs to reflect a little bit of that more. mj, you were the. you asked questions of the former vice president, including the one that he didn't quite bite on. he said he didn't want to speculate on the visit to walter reed. but made a point of saying when he was vice president -- vice president pence was basically told to be on standby in the president having to go under anesthesia. and he did sort of say something, which was when the president would go overseas, when president obama would go overseas, biden was briefed on the possibility of what that might mean if there was some situation.

what did you think about the answer? >> what was interesting because joe biden, obviously, was formally the vice president. so, he does have insight into how these things usually work at the white house, insight into what might happen when a president in the white house is taken to walter reed for medical exam, whether it is scheduled or not. so, it's interesting when we asked him about this tid bit, about donald trump's visit to walter reed, there are still lots of outstanding questions. he made the point of saying, look, without speculating on the medical aspect of this, nothing that this administration does is normal. that, obviously the theme he's been trying to drive home about the president and conduct and then saying, when i asked vice president, is that a kind of situation that you ever encountered?

he said essentially no, other than the exception of when president trump travelled out of the country, he was put on alert because he was going abroad. i think this exchange highlights that there are, again, a lot of remaining questions about what happens in 2019 and why the white house has decided to conduct itself in a way, sort of lacking in transparency, not following previous administration's protocol about when a president might go in for a medical examination. and if i could quickly say too in the big picture about this event we saw today. clearly this is a joe biden that is set on making sure that president trump does not sort of own the conversation and turn the conversation at every possible moment to lawlessness and the issue of crime as he's been trying to do over the past few weeks and particularly for

four days straight at the republican national convention. it's not an accident that as so many parents and teachers and educators are very worried about what's going to happen with the reopening of schools during covid-19, he chose to turn the conversation back to covid-19. it's almost like he's waving a sign that says hey, american voters, this crisis and pandemic is not over, regardless of how many times the president and his allies try to sort of talk around it and paint this picture of this alternate reality where the pandemic is almost in the past tense, it is no longer an issue. >> yeah. there's still so much of it ahead of us and he's trying to make sure voters remember that. mj, thank you so much. before we wrap up this conversation, the debates. let's talk about the debates because that came up and biden said and was laughing about it. but what he would love is,

essentially, a lower third, ticker tape fact checking on the bottom of his screen. this is coming as the trump campaign is complaining about the choice of moderators. but he's going to have to be his own fact checker as well during that debate. >> yeah, it's go took be a tough challenge for him. because how much does he want to spend his time pushing back on false hoods that president trump might be putting out there, verses putting out his rationale for seeking the presidency and his policy position. it's a very tricky balance and it's a 90-minute affair. the two of them on stage answering questions. he's not going to let the president get away with a complete untruth and a complete lie about something or mischaracterization. but he also isn't going to want to squander the opportunity to make sure he's hammering home his message to voters. >> it's a delicate balance. thank you for the conversation. dr. fauci is issuing a new

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today infectious disease expert is warning about the upcoming labor day holiday just as americans are urged to do all we can now for the flu season. the first in generations happening during a pandemic. sound bite. now, in other developments, a british study finds effects may last longer than expected, with patients needing to wait more than a month to make sure they're clear of the virus. they'll send out low-cost antgen tests starting next month. and common and cheap steroids can reduce death in critically ill patients with covid. they're saying plasma should not be used as a standard of

treatment. this just days after fda authorized emergency use of the treatment. but there's not enough data -- it it's great to see you. this is extremely confusing for family whose have loved one whose are in the hospital battling the virus. so, just tell us what the truth is here. what's the data on convalescent plasma? and should this have got cdc authorization? >> the details are important. convalescent plasma is 100 years old. and the emergency use authorization just has to say does more good than harm. what's really concerning is how politicized that was. billed as a major breakthrough, which is not.

the headlines, the framing, the way it was done, really smell of political interference. and there have been far too many casualties from covid. more than 200,000 more americans died between march and july than have died in other years, if the dect rate were the same. that's from covid and the disruption. also our treasured institutions like the food and drug administration and the centers for disease control to be really casualties of this pandemic. >> so, the cdc has been politicized, right? and for it to be effective, it has to resist that politicization. how far gone is it, do you think? and what does it need to do? >> i think if you look at masks or contact tracing or testing or

lockdowns or reopening, there's a more effectival and less effective way to do those nings. and unfortunately this administration has used a less effective means and because of that the u.s. has a much higher death rate. our economy has taken a harder hit. we can't get our kids back to school, can't go back to work places without the kind of risk that could have been avoided. there are things that each of us can do. wear a mask when you're near others. make sure, if you are positive, you participate in contact tracing so they can be warned and be quarantined so they don't become infectious and infect others. there's lots we can do against this virus but it's not going to go away on its own. we have to work together, stay apart but work together and we can make a lot more progress. >> are you worried some americans won't trust the cdc?

>> i'm very worried about the lack of trust. it's very hard to fight an epidemic if people can't trust what's being said. if you see the recommendations and statements being made by those not qualified to make the statements, they don't have training in the control infectious diseases. it's not keeping faith with the american people. when you're in an epidemic, it's crucial to be very clear about what you know, when you know it, to state that clearly too, give recommendations for what's proven people can do. there are some things we definitely know. if you're feeling sick, stay home, get a test. wear a mask anytime you're indoors, near other people. and we're learning more about how to treat pastients who are very ill in the hospital. that's all good news but we're a long way from being out of the woods with this virus. >> i'm glad you say this because the foundation of a good public

health response is a government that's being accurate about what has happened j what americans need to do here. dr. fauci says there could be a vxeen by the owned of the year and they could end clinical trials early and give an emergency-use authorization when it comes to a vaccine. >> i've been through a number of vaccine trials in which euas have been done but they've been done when there was enough data that you would really feel comfortable it was safe and effective for the american public. >> as you know, doctor, the american public has to feel it's safe and effective. would you be comfortable with fast-tracking a vaccine? >> depends on the data. we need to see the data openly and the fda has said they'll provide all the data openly. is it effective? does it work? is it safe? and will people take it?

in terms of the safety, that's a complicated question. because sometimes you don't find a problem with the vaccine until tens or hundreds have been vaccinated. that means not only do you need to start carefully, but you need to monitor over time. we already have too much distrust in vaccines. we need complete openness about what's going on with the vaccine, an assurance it's not politicized and an understanding that decisions are made with one concept only. how do we save american lives. >> i want to talk to you about something joni ernts has suggested, that they may be falsifying covid cases for money. this is her conversation with a local reporter there. >> you mention something i wanted to clarify about the covid numbers and maybe being inflated by health care providers to get more reimbursement.

>> and again, this is what i've heard from health care providers and others. i can't actually look at that information. but i have heard it from health care providers that they do get reimbursed higher amounts if it's a covid-related illness or death. so, because of the additional expense for ppe and treatment that might be necessary for covid-19. >> do you think numbers are being inflated because of that? >> that, i'm not sure and that's why i want somebody to do a good fact check on this and i don't have the means to do that. but i think that should be discussed. because i heard the same thing on the news, traveling across the state today is they're thinking there may be 10,000 or less deaths that were singularly covid-19. >> doctor, just a quick fact check for our viewers, when you look at the death total on the side of the screen, 185,000

deaths. there's been a question about comorbidity. so, these wouldn't occur in the absence of coronavirus, so these are coronavirus deaths. what do you make of her questions about whether doctors in mask are committing fraud when it comes to covid numbers. >> there is a plain and simple truth here. more than 200,000 americans died in excess of historical rates between march and july. the death rate is a fact. everything else is inference. now, if you die from cancer and you also have diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from cancer. that means you had another condition. if you die from covid and you also had diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from covid. the facts are extremely clear. the u.s. death rate and the most reliable way of measuring this is what's called the excess mortality, which is the number

of deaths beyond the historical baseline and that's pin looked at by the "the new york times," cdc and the data is extremely clear. there are well over 200,000 excess deaths in the u.s. already and that's a combination of three things. one, someone who died and the doctor said yes, this is covid. that's the 125,000 number. two, people who died from covid but because there wasn't a test or they died at home or wasn't recognized to be covid, and three, people who might have had a hard attack or other serious problem and didn't get care because they were afraid or the health care system was overwhelmed. that's the bottom line. we've lost more than 200,000 americ american lives because the response to the pandemic in the u.s. has not been nearly as effectival effective as many other countries have done.

>> what does it say to you when we have coronavirus death toll deniers in the highest levels of government? >> if you look at some of the so-called controversies, i have optimism when i see what people are doing. the vast majority of people wear masks and understand it's a serious pandemic and it's not about health verses economy. just the opposite. we all want to get back to work in person. our kids back in school. we can do that by controlling the virus. the virus is not going to respond to spin. it's going to respond to a science-based approach that keeps us all safer. >> doctor, thanks for being with us. >> thank you so much. >> and next, a new report suggesting the trump administration held back its own intel about russia spreading

misinformation. i'll be asking the homeland security expert about that. plus, breaking news on a russian opposition leader. the german government saying there's no question that he was poisoned with a chemical nerve agent. you hear that? that's your weathered deck, crying for help. while you do nothing, it's inviting those geese over for target practice. today, let's stain. and right now, get incredible savings on behr premium paints and stains. exclusively at the home depot. you can't give them everything they want. but you can find lots of things they'll love at petsmart's labor day sale. get a $10 bonus card with every $50 purchase. petsmart.

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the department of homeland security withheld an

intelligence bulletin warning of a russian plot to spread misinformation. according to are a report from abc news. the bulletin titled "russia likely to -- warned of attacks on joe biden. the document was submitted for review july 7th but never distributed. a spokesman for dhs says while the agency doesn't normally comment on leaked documents, this particular draft product lacked the necessary context and evidence for broader dissemination. joining me is the former secretary of homeland security under president obama and she is also a joe biden surrogate and the former governor of arizona. thank you so much for being with us, secretary. according to these emails, obtained by abca senior dhs official intervened, saying not to distribute the information

before talking to the acting secretary, chad wolf. i wonder what your reaction is. >> the leaked document was an assessment about high confidence of this particular form of russian interference in the campaign for president. and i must say that the sequence of events kind of reeks of political interference. these intelligence products are very carefully put together and vetted before they reach the publication stage. it's very rare for an intelligence product to come out with a finding of high confidence. that means they're very sure of what they found. so too, have it delayed by the upper echelons of the department and potentially the white house, to me, is very troublesome. >> and so this quote that this particular draft product lacked

the necessary context and evidence for broader dissemination, that doesn't pass the smell test to you? >> i would like more specifics. how did it not? what sources were relied upon in the draft? how solid twhwere the sources? those are the kinds of questions that can get asked. but just to say it doesn't pass the smell test, that's not adequate particularly when there's a fine line. >> it's the primetime agency cast with over seeing election security and they haven't had a confirmed secretary since april of last year. several top positions either vacant or filled in acting capacity. do you think they're ready for the 2020 election? >> i think the individuals they have filling the top roles in acting capacity are really

operationally unqualified for those roles. and i'm very troubled by the lack of leadership in the department throughout the trump administration, the kind of floating -- who's the secretary today question? that has impacts throughout this department, which, afterall, is the third largest department of the federal government. now, in terms of election security, and the actual nuts and bolts of election security, what i understand is that the career individuals at the department have been doing a pretty good job. of getting information out and working with local election officials on election security. but they need to be able to do that job without political interference. >> secretary, thank you so much for being with us. we really appreciate it.

>> thank you. >> and let's listen in now to where president trump is speaking. >> that's them saying hello. in wilmington, more than 20,000 workers of the north carolina ship building company poured out every ounce of their strength to build an astonishing 243 ships for the u.s. navy. and it was the citizens of wilmington who came together to save a priceless art fact of american history, the glorious battleship behind me, the u.s. smpts north carolina and that is some powerful and beautiful ship. coming in, we have plenty of televisions on air force 1 and they showed it in primetime. in the 40s. and they showed that ship and i'll tell you. i shouldn't say this, they don't make them that way anymore, they really don't. what a beautiful ship. during world war ii, this magnificent ship participated in

many naval offense and in the pacific theater itself, including the marshal islands,ee wujeemau and okinawa. why are you clapping? you come from wa wa. west virginia. but we're clapping anyway. you better believe it. after the war, the people organized the mass campaign to save it from the scrap yard. a monument to the american workers that built it and an enduring symbol of american greatness, now more than 200,000 people visit the site each year to learn the history and the heroism that defines our nation. my administration is welcoming the contributions to victory in

the second world war. it is my tremendous honor to officially designate wilmington, north carolina as our nation's very first world war roam roii e city. that's a big deal. congratulations to you all. and got is saluting you up there, i tell you. we may have to go a little quicker than i thought, right? with this designation we proudly declare that in america, we don't tear down the path, we celebrate our heroes, we cherish our heritage, preserve history and build the future this mighty vessel in this magnificent town will forever tell the story. that's a fantastic thing. i want to thank senator tillis and congressman browser.

stand up, please. been tween the lightening bolts. for their work to make this day possible. thank you, tom, thank you fellas. and let me thank retired navy captain, wilbur jones, who's championed the cause of world war ii heritage cities. great job. so, wilbur, you know a lot of people wanted this, right? so, you are just the tough cookie. number one in the nation. i want to thank wilbur. that's great. i also want to recognize several of the heroes that saved american freedom and i've known several since i've been in office. there they are. here today is my good friend, who i just left and he was in the oval office with me at the white house. woody williams, 75 years ago, woody showed fearless courage, as a marine in the battle of

uwajimaya. you are amazing. i promised him i would not tell that he's 97 years old. i promised. i'll tell you, he's 100% sharp. he's 100% sharp. i know a 78-year-old that's not so sharp and he's 97. and he's 100%. because nothing to do with that. 78's young. depends who's 78. that's all. i said, man, you are something and physically in great shape. he destroyed 100 enemy machine guns, positioned after one another, knocked them out one after one. for his daring action, president truman, think of that, awarded woody the congressional medal of honor, the highest in our land. congratulations. you inspire us all. it was great to have you on air force 1. i promised him maybe two years ago, i'll take you on air 1.

he was very aggressive and said i'd like to fly on air force 1 and today we did it. thanks, woody. great job. also joining us is paul phillips, a veteran of world war ii and vietnam. he proudly served on the u.s.s. south carolina. at 93, he has returned today to visit the ship upon which he so nobly served. he's a tremendous man. it's our honor to have you with us. please, stand up. thank you, paul. thank you. perfect. thank you, paul. great job, paul. appreciate it. when greg was 20 years old, he served as a radio operator in the headquarters of supreme allied general, dwight b. eisenhower. i'd love to have heard some of those conversations. much more interesting than today, right? 75 years ago, general

eisenhower, directed greg to broadcast the long-awaited news that germany had surrendered. greg, you're being here is very, very much appreciated. thank you very much. it was a great honor meeting you before. great honor. our task today is to pass on to the next generation the blessings of liberty that you fought for. and that you bled for. all for security. you wanted to secure the future. you wanted to praise and raise our flag and you did that. you raise our flag and you stand proud and you stand tall. and we're doing it in our nation too. almost everyone. every once a while you see someone not do it. we don't like it when they don't do it, do we? we don't like it. american warriors did not defeat fascism and oppression only to watch our freedoms be trampled by violent mobs at home.

we stopped the violent mobs very easily. all they have to say is please come in, mr. president. we'll have it done in one hour. please come in. to me, just incredible that they don't immediately, as you know, portland, the mayor last night, he was raided. he was thrown out of his home and he'll stand up and fight for these people. these people only know one thing and that's strength, strength. and we have strength. for the sake of all americans, we must uphold the rule of law and defend the american dream for every child in our land. we must teach our children that america is the land of heroes. like you. you're heroes, like you, woody. you're heroes. great, great men. better believe it. we're not ashamed in america, we're not ashamed of anything. i signed a very important edict

recently, three months ago, they were ripping down statues. i said you can rip themg down but you're going to serve ten years in jail and incredibly you haven't heard of statues coming down, have you? but we're not ashamed of our country. we're proud of our country, prouder than we are of anything else. our country is great and we're going to keep it that way. we're going to keep our kunltdry great. we'll remember america's touring vilktries and recognize the utstanding virtus and pay tribute the heroes who keep us safe, strong, proud and free, and in addition to our wonderful, brilliant military, i want to thank law enforcement because without them, we're not here today very well. they've done an incredible job. really an incredible job. and thank you again to the world war ii veterans in attendance today. this is such a great tribute to

north carolina. we will never forget what you did for us. your legacy is forever in the heart and soul of a grateful nation and this spot is right now one of the most important military spots anywhere in the world. congratulations to everybody and thank you for making it come true. thank you all very much. god bless you, god bless north carolina and god bless america. thank you. >> president trump there speaking to wilmington north carolina in front of battleship, north carolina with kind of a speech with contradictions in it, let's say that. he's in front of a world war ii battle ship that was key and he is there honoring the legacy of world war ii veterans and the efforts during that war and he talked about tearing down statues and that would be civil

war era statues fchs.the writin. this is leading to the end of the confederacy. the president trying to honor the confederate history of that city which it certainly is a very different story had the n confederacy not lost the port city. what is ahead here. nancy pelosi under fire after video surfaces of her at a hair appointment inside of a salon which is in violation of current pandemic rules in san francisco, the city where this took place. we'll have her response. (vo) businesses are always making choices. here's a choice you don't have to make.

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president trump today on twitter blasting house speaker nancy pelosi for getting her hair done in apparent violation of san francisco's coronavirus safety regulations. cnn's senior correspondent manu raju is tracking this

controversy. manu? >> reporter: now speaker pelosi's office is saying they misinterpreted the rules based on what someone in the salon told them was okay. under the san francisco rules it said no one could get an appointment indoors, it has to be outdoors and she was indoors because someone at salon told her it is okay to come in and get her hair done. the footage, the security footage of her actually walking around without a mask indoors only happened for a very brief moment after she got her hair done and her hair washed, typically she had her mask on for the rest of that appointment. now president trump, of course, seizing on this, criticizing pelosi, accusing her of being hypocritical. the white house itself has violated social distancing guidelines through the course of this pandemic. but pelosi office responding that she simply was operating under how the rules were presented to her staff at the

time. brianna. >> thank you. and just in, iowa state reversing course now saying it will not allow fans at its football season opener. the university had decided to allow 25,000 fans into the stadium next week. of course, they are seeing many cases of coronavirus in the state right now. we'll have much more on this ahead. to support us no matter what. whether we see them or not, we need to know that they're always there. for the past 25 years, masimo has been monitoring patients in hospitals around the world so that doctors and nurses can make sure you feel safe. as new challenges have arisen, we've grown to bring that same safety and support to the place that you want to be most.

if we've learned nothing else, it's that when challenges arise, there's only one way to rise above. together. masimo. together in hospital, together at home.

hi there, i'm brooke baldwin, you're watching cnn. thank you for being here. we start with new concerns about the u.s. response to the coronavirus pandemic with a long holiday weekend and the start of flu season just around the corner. more than 1,000 americans died yesterday with the overall death toll now above 185,000. and another sign of trouble, the seven-day average of new cases increased week over week for the first time since july. but it is the midwest that is the biggest hot spot with cases there surging and in particular iowa. iowa had a 22% positivity rate in testing yesterday. and you're thinking what does that mean? that means that more than one in five people have tested positive for the virus. the white house coronavirus task force is calling for iowa to make changes immediately in order to stop the spread. those rec