cnn.com/coronavirusanswers. a programming note saturday morning cnn and "sesame street" teaming together for a town hall for families. love "sesame street." the abcs of back to school. saturday morning 10:00 a.m. eastern here on cnn. the news continues now with chris cuomo. chris? all right. thank you, anderson. i am chris cuomo. welcome to "primetime." now we know the president lied to you about the worst medical crisis in our generation. we know he encouraged you to do things that were bad for your health -- ignoring masks. going to crowded rallies. defying governors who told you the truth about the need to socially distance and shut down for a while. the remaining question is why would he do this? early on when it was mostly blue states and minorities getting sick and the largest numbers and

the biggest cities, remember that? well, that seemed to be out of convenience for trump, right, about playing to party. i know that sounds wicked but after what you just heard on this tape, can you really say it's not a legitimate question about whether he would do that, whether he would sacrifice people for his own benefit? really? didn't he already tell you he would do that in not so many words? but i don't know about that theory that it was just about the blue states because he kept up the same perfidy, faithlessness, with his own base. the facts make it clear he did use supporters more dirty because he kept telling you especially to go where you could get sick. and not wear a mask. talk about eating your own. he wanted it so badly he put the

people counting on him most in the worst position. what is the real lesson? he not only won't admit his breach of duty, right, he never does. remember, this is the man who told you christians he's never had to ask god for forgiveness. not only did he do it before, not only does he refuse to admit it was wrong, but he is continuing it tonight in michigan. this is what's happening with cases in michigan. do you see the chart? pretty simple picture. what did dein michigan? take a look at the crowd. take a look. take a look. oh, they're outside. sure. they're all sandwiched together masks optional. remember he told them so many times that masks are weakness. yeah he said it's your patriotic duty. once. the only one in that crowd at a safe distance from exposure for sure? guess who?

trump. clearly, he favors his own feelings over the fates of his supporters. otherwise, would he really hold such a reckless event? and not a word from him about how risky this is to not have a mask on. not one. instead you know what he told them? we're rounding the turn on the virus. put that graph up again. that is what he told them in michigan. we're rounding the turn. does this look like rounding the turn to you? do you see any kind of curve there other than up? the cdc says more than 25,000 of us could die from covid in the next 23 days. doesn't have to be that. what if he went on like a mask tour? they give out maga masks. why not say wear 'em? everybody everywhere. i'm not holding anymoralies. in fact i'm not holding any rallies until the numbers

come down. not doing it. wear those masks. let's get the numbers down in the red states more than the blue states ever could. i am all over testing. i'm sorry that kids aren't back in school. i'll do everything to get them back in there. it is wrong for kids not to be in school but remember his rationale. he can't tell you the truth about the virus or even how to reduce your risk because that would cause panic. that's not leadership. >> america will prevail over the china virus. as franklin delano roosevelt said, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. as the british government advised the british people in the face of world war ii, keep calm and carry on. that's what i did. this whack job that wrote the book, he said, well trump knew a little bit. they wanted me to come out and scream, people are dying! we're dying! no. no. we did it just the right way. we have to be calm. we don't want to be crazed

lunatics. >> my brothers and sisters who lost people, who have had sick people in their family, who worried about their kids, who had this themselves, who have the long haul syndromes you think he did it exactly right? 200,000 dead and he is giving himself a pat on the back? you want to call woodward a kook fine. why did you give him so many hours of access twice? he didn't say you knew things, mr. president. you did. you said it in your loud, obvious voice. you said it. you told him it was worse than the flu. you told him the numbers were more. you told him you knew with it was a deadly thing. you told him you knew it wasn't just old people it was kids. you said it not woodward. that's the fact. fdr, churchill? i used them last night as points of contrast. they did nothing like what trump did.

if they did what he did we'd probably all be speaking german today. they said, here,the truth, it's going to be bad. we have to get in the fight. we're going to bleed. of course they said it more eloquently. of course they are good leaders and i'm someone who repeats their thoughts. he is the leader. i have to be calm. that's leadership. this is what he thinks is nonpanic causing leadership. listen. >> if biden wins the mob wins. if biden wins the rioters, anarchists, arsonists, and flag burners win. the left wants to get rid of me so they can come after you. >> nonpanic inducing? here come the crazy blacks and their kooky anarchist white friends from the suburbs led by a monster named cory booker. blue-eyed assassin. that's not panic inducing?

the illegals coming for your women. selling drugs and killing. islam hates us. we must keep them out of the country. that's not panic inducing? that's calm leadership? why does this all matter? why does it matter more than anything else that we've learned about this president? i'll tell you why. because it is right to say that those who support this president often do so despite how he is as a person. that there are bigger concerns, feelings of humiliation and disaffection and disenfranchisement and you are right. there is an intractable class structure in this country that is horrible for whites and blacks. there are unique problems of color. no questioning it. they are systemic. it means they happen everywhere. how we hire, how we lend, how we educate. but it happens with whites, too.

and you have all these people looking down on you and saying this is as good as you get and what you have you may have to give to somebody else and you may have to pay more. and it makes you angry and then they seem to not respect you. it is not about trump for you. it is about him being angry at the same people you are. but here's the thing. is he doing you right? he the right agent for you? his wife said, we deserve complete honesty from a president. she's right. but he has never given you that. honesty with trump is as real as a jack-a-lope. that's a jack-a-lope. they don't exist i'm told. even about something that has killed so many of us, compromised too many of our kids, he lied to you. it matters because not only did he lie but he defied the best guidance with the people that should matter the most to him.

he encouraged you, his own supporters, to put yourselves at risk and your families. it matters because he kept those around him in power, quiet, or echoing the same poison. they made choices. they made choices. the people around him that didn't tell the truth and kept people quiet who wanted to, they should be exposed. i know that is a dangerous thing to say. believe me i know the price. but there is no reason to do this job otherwise. i will not be remembered as somebody who watched this go on and didn't say anything about it. you deserve the truth especially if he gets another term. he has to do this job better than the way he is doing it right now. how will you be remembered? will you call these things out? case in point about why this matters. what he did? echo effect. florida. you think it is a coincidence the governor there was allegedly saying there was no covid there? when there was?

that he hid the truth from people, hid the numbers from people there? and punished those who tried to reveal it? sounds familiar, doesn't it? same time, same game. doing what the boss does. confronted with the reality of the contagion, the man elected to fight it, what does he say to you? it is what it is. that expression was very common where he and i grew up. it is what it is. it means there is nothing you can do. broke my ankle. season's over. i'm sad. but it is what it is. can't do anything about it. the response to a pandemic is what you make it. you can do something about it. trump chose to lie to you and to make less of it. not only was it bad faith, it was bad strategy. you can't lie about a virus and make it less contagious. and on top of it, he did not even have the brains to tell you it's not a big deal, but do everything you can.

at least give himself a chance to be right. give you a chance. believe in you enough. care about you enough to at least give his supporters a chance to be safe. instead of encouraging you to do the worst for yourselves. wow. double dumb but singularly sinister. now, major trump zones have suffered and our kids the people he must protect are not in school in too many places and that is wrong and it is true at least partly because he failed to muster the testing and guidance they did need and do need. it is not what it is. but he is who he is. he is a liar who would rather expose you to health risk than expose himself to political risk. i don't care who comes after me and about what. it is true.

time and time again. seven days out of seven. and he is on tape doing it here. and he did it about what matters most. is he trying to clear it up instead of owning it? of course. here's the new defense. >> i didn't lie. what i said is we have to be calm. we can't be panicked. i don't want to jump up and down and start screaming, death, death, because that is not what it's about. >> first of all, that's not what you did. what you did was you told one person on tape that you knew it was bad. you knew what it was. and then in public you said it was not those things. what you did was in private, not private. you were talking to a freaking reporter. what did you think was going to happen? that's why they wanted him to keep it quiet until after the election. nope. you said, i know it's bad. then you told people in public, it's not that bad. go to the places they're telling

you not to go. go without a mask. i do not know how any of you can be okay with this. because it is not okay. and remember, he doesn't even believe the theory of his own case. got to be calm. but the black man's coming. helter skelter. got to be calm. but islam hates us. gotta be calm. but don't vote. don't vote by mail. oh, ho. it's going to be a fraud. the election is going to be rigged. am i calm enough? illegal immigrants. we love immigrants, but they're coming. they're going to rape you. they're going to sell you drugs and they're going to kill you like these two, three people i found. is that calm? this is about life and death, not left and right. it can't be bad to make people panic but good to let them die. giving people information is not panic. trusting in the american people

enough to let them do something with the information that affects them, there is nothing wrong with that. he wants to play what aboutism and blame biden. biden is not the president. bob woodward, this isn't about him. you said it on the tape. look at the excuses. >> if bob woodward thought what i said was bad, then he should have immediately right after i said it gone out to the authorities so they can prepare and let them know. >> do you believe his bs? you're going to put it on the reporter? are you kidding me? are you kidding me? you say something because your arrogance makes you think you can charm anyone, you can get away with anything. you could go in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody, one of your own with a red hat on and it would be okay. but it's on him? it's not on you. not on you to tell the truth. huh? he should have told the officials. oh, because they would have spoke up, right?

how did that work out for fauci when he told people the obvious about wearing masks? remember what you said? fauci has been wrong about a lot of things. i don't know about fauci. then you had all your boys the puppets, the trumpets go out there and his family is getting threats because of you. because he tried to tell people things that you didn't want him to. that's what woodward should have done? he should have told people you weren't telling the truth? that's not your job? i thought you alone could fix everything? you alone certainly did make it worse. he didn't turn you in for your lies so it was okay to keep lying? 200,000 dead and you're telling people not to wear masks? you say nothing about it tonight? in a state where the curve is going like this? that's a curve? it's called a spike. up. is where it's going. curve means kind of two different directions.

but you know what? he does make one good point. where is everybody else? where are the voices out there who call themselves pro life, got to protect it. that's what my faith teaches us. the ones elected to keep checks and balances on the president, country first. party second. many gop senators, conservative, moderate, they won't answer questions. they won't answer any questions about the woodward tapes. cornyn said he wouldn't comment since he didn't have any confidence in the reporting. it is a tape, proeth. the president doesn't deny the tape. it's the media's fault? others, like senator purdue and tillis, they defended trump. along with the big kahuna himself mitch mcconnell. listen to this. >> well, i haven't read the

woodward book but we all know it was dangerous, the president knew and i think took positive steps very early on for which he should be applauded not criticized. >> you wonder why we're in the worst shape in the world. that is the face of the response to the pandemic. more so than trump you know why? you know trump is not up to the job by himself. you know he's relying on the people around him. you know that an old horse like that -- they knew. they knew what he knew. these weren't top-secret briefings. they knew what he knew and they knew when he knew it and now you know what the president knew and when he knew it and you know all of them didn't tell you the damn truth and it made people sick and it allowed people to die. so how do we figure this out?

here's what we do. we listen. it's time to listen. we are just outside this election. we have former national security adviser and ambassador john bolton. unhe left his job exactly one year ago today. talk about an anniversary i'm sure he likes marking. he is the author of "the room where it happened." let's go to break and come back and get his take on what the woodward tape reflects, the reality of it, the context of it, and what he makes of what it means for you going forward. next. (vo) businesses are always making choices. here's a choice you don't have to make: the largest 5g network... award-winning customer satisfaction... or insanely great value. now, with t-mobile for business, there's no compromise.

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the president calls legend bob woodward names. blames him for his own yapping

on a recorded interview. trump was told about coronavirus, told how bad it could be, told what we needed to do, and lied to you about it. he was dangerously close with authoritarians like kim jong un in ways that don't make sense and certainly didn't yield the results promised. it lines up with another book by someone who was on the inside. that book is "the room where it happened, a white house memoir." the author is trump's own former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton. welcome to "primetime." >> thanks for having me. glad to be here. >> what do you make of what the president said to woodward and his refusal to acknowledge that he did anything wrong? >> look, this is a very serious political problem for the president which is what he understands it to be. it is not a matter of truth or falsity here for him. this is an existential threat to his re-election which i think

explains the strength of his response to it. it is striking how clear he is on these tapes to woodward of his appreciation for how dangerous the coronavirus was compared to what he was saying publicly at the time, what his senior advisers and cabinet officials were saying at the time. there is no way you can reconcile those things. and that coming out of his own mouth, i think this could be nearly the point where the campaign ends. >> so when i originally read your book, it kind of gave me the ability to give the president a break, because of how you detail his, just, incurious nature. the man doesn't want to read. he didn't want to listen. so i gave him the benefit of, you know, that inadequacy so he probably didn't please be what was going on with coronavirus. now i know he did. what i don't get is this part, ambassador. why would he do his own people worst?

why would he tell his own supporters not to wear a mask and to go to places where they'd be exposed to the virus? when he knew that the virus could get them? >> because i think he was driven by his own logic. my reaction, of course i was out of the government at this point in january/february, was that he was simply resisting information he didn't want to hear. he didn't want to hear bad things about xi jinping, about the extent of the disease in china, most importantly about the potential negative impact on the u.s. economy. his ticket to re-election. so once you're saying it's not a problem, we don't have to worry about it you then can't tell people wear masks, do social distancing, because it sounds like there is a problem. i think he couldn't figure out how to get out of that. that is what drove him in that direction. what the woodward book does is make it much more serious. because if he did know and he did it anyway, you simply can't reconcile that with the qualities, the character you

need in a president of the united states. >> and you know your assessment of the nsc told him and he didn't do anything about risks to the country. i don't understand again. you spent so much time around him and getting a sense of what he does or doesn't do in terms of thinking, why did he think it was a good bet to deny the pandemic when doing that almost assured that it would be extended and therefore do more harm to the economy whereas what is every first term president dying for, a crisis right? not to be calloused but to put his arm around it and say i own this. i did everything i could. re-elect me. >> i think trump believes that if he talks about a particular threat or crisis in ways that he thinks benefit him, that he can get away with it endlessly. i saw this in situation after situation. don't talk about north korea's ballistic missile tests. call them artillery.

call them something else. they won't be in the news and therefore won't be a threat. how you characterize foreign leaders. same kind of approach. i think he just didn't understand the coronavirus wasn't reading the memos. and the disease was not subject to that same kind of treatment. once that logic drives him down a particular path it is very hard to correct from that point. >> and in terms of how you saw this extended, the idea that you had witnessed this president not wanting things discussed and then that's it. you want to keep your job you have to stay there. for instance the other story in the headlines right now from the whistle-blower, the whistle-blower saying, hey. wolf, and cuccinelli told me, no more briefings of congress about russian interference. you got a tape or what you say about russian interference intel to what the president wants to hear. do you believe that could have

happened? >> i believe it could have happened and i think people were self-censoring to a certain extent. i think that is a real problem. look, you can receive intelligence from the intelligence community, disagree with it. disagree with the implications of what the policy is. disagree with what the priorities ought to be in terms of gathering new intelligence. these are all legitimate subjects to discuss. it's when you close your mind to what's coming in entirely and just refuse to receive it that you're in real trouble. this is a trump characteristic. and it carries over as well to what he says publicly. you made a very interesting remark on the coronavirus. he said not just that he didn't want to cause panic but that he was a cheerleader. and he wanted to keep people's spirits up. i think that's a telling aspect of his character but it is not what a president is. he is a leader not a cheerleader. the american people are not children. they're adults.

and the way a leader reacts is you tell them the truth. if you don't think the american people can take the truth, you're saying we've got a very serious problem with our system of government. and you mentioned at beginning roosevelt, churchill, really great leaders who can inspire people, also tell them the truth. that is just not part of the trump approach. >> cheerleaders, also a function of what he wants to cheer on. i mean, he's basically pitching, you know, race invasions right now. and saying this election is going to be rigged. i don't know exactly what he is cheering for. more to your bailey wick you say in terms of this kind of displacement of reality for his own advantage that when it came to the mbs situation of saudi arabia woodward says trump was bragging about saving mbs's ass and you said trump was sometimes defending saudi arabia for personal reasons of distraction. how so?

>> well, the time that trump made the statement supporting saudi arabia happened to coincide with a lot of press reporting about ivanka trump's use of personal e-mail. and as he often does i think he hoped that his statement would cancel that out. he was right about it. by diverting people's attention to mbs. i do think there is a legitimate argument here about american interests dealing with saudi arabia. that wasn't necessarily the top of his agenda, though. >> just to be clear when i was talking about the nsc before, not to confuse people, the national security council, you say in the book the nsc saw the threat from covid. you know, i don't want people confused. bolton left. yeah. but the nsc you understand saw the threat. it wasn't that they missed it. >> that's exactly right. it's been reported in a number of sources, the "new york times" did a long tiktok on the

government's reaction to covid and they say in this long article in early january staff at the nsc and elsewhere in the government were raising the red flag about that. the first page of woodward's book talks about how my successor and his deputy were in seeing the president at the end of january. people knew what was going on. the problem was not failure to understand this was a threat. the problem was in the oval office and the president's empty chair. he did not want to deal with this. >> they got things wrong early on even at the task force level but once they figured out they were wrong they wanted to make a shift. it was the president who didn't and now we see that on the tapes. a few more things for you, ambassador, if you would. first, woodward says that mattis, general mattis said that the president is dangerous and unfit. former official coates doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie he said about the president. and you said in your own book

that you, now secretary of state pompeo and treasury secretary mnuchin that you were all worried. worried about what? >> well, worried about the way the president conducted affairs with foreign governments in many cases in my view coming close to if not crossing the line on obstruction of justice, interfering in prosecutions and investigations in this country. it was very hard for people. and remains very hard for people in the administration to know how to handle the president in these cases. everybody had a different take on it. but there's never been an administration in contemporary history anyway where so many people went in hoping to serve the country and just finally came to a realization they couldn't live with their own conscience and continue to do it. the country suffers when that happens. >> here is the criticism that always assures i don't get the first interview with the book. why did you wait? if you saw these things when you were in offices specially you,

you are such a veteran, so savvy, you've been at the highest level so many times. if you knew that this wasn't just aberrant but it was dangerous, why save it for a book? why not say it when you were there and step down? >> well, look. the question of how long you stay in a job like this is complex. everybody makes his own calculation. i felt that i could prevent worse things from happening. you know, you can call that a rationalization. it may well be. i finally left when i couldn't stand it anymore. why did i put it in a book? because i felt it would take 500 pages to detail it, fact by fact. >> it's good that you wrote the book. but do you regret not saying what's in the book on a show like this or ten shows like this when you were there and you were already sure? couldn't have taken you that long to figure out that you shouldn't be there anymore.

>> well, you know, i could have left after 30 days, too. and i would have had one opportunity to make that point. i felt, and i continue to believe and there were other people in the government, some still in the government, trying to do the right thing for the country, which is what we all owe our real loyalty to, the constitution, not the individual in the office. and i think, look. different people are in different situations. and i don't criticize any of the others. i've had disagreements with people like mattis. i've never doubted he acted in a patriotic fashion. he left after two years. you know, if i had a better answer for you, i'd be happy to give it but you try and make the contribution you can and prevent bad things from happening. >> well, i tell you what, a group of people who have no reason to coordinate their answer, there are so many of you who had high positions who say, look. i was afraid to leave. not afraid of trump. but i was afraid of what would

happen. but i also wanted people to know and they had the same struggle you say you have. so look. there is only one thing required for your book to be helpful and it is an open mind. there is a paucity of those. the book has done very well regardless. the book is "the room where it happened." its writer ambassador john bolton. sir, thank you very much for coming on the show. we'll see you again. >> thanks for having me. i appreciate it. >> be well, ambassador. all right. so now, what is the effect of what the president admitted on the tape? as i pointed out, you saw echo effect, right? other officials had to stay quiet. couldn't tell you the truth because he didn't want you to. right? you saw that he had other governors of red states would echo him, right, like happened in texas until he got burned. like happened in georgia until he got burned. like happened in florida and they're still getting burned. how about the governors who relied on him to their own detriment? we have one. the governor who says you know

what? i would have taken a more aggressive action sooner if trump was giving me better information early on when we didn't have our own information. that governor is phil murphy of new jersey. what's his basis? what does it mean? where are we today? next. when i came to the u.s., i was fifteen years old. my family was really poor. now, i've got fifty employees. when the pandemic hit, i was really scared about losing my business. but osmar, my financial advisor from northwestern mutual, he told me, brother we got your back. his financial planning helped to save my business. if i could talk to my younger self, i would say, you're going to be proud of yourself.

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i know that when you hear the number of cases in the millions and 200,000 dead, it just becomes a haze, a fog. the numbers lose meaning but the perspective is that it didn't have to be like this. the cdc is projecting we could lose 25,000 additional americans over the next few weeks. how many fewer would we lose if everybody was on the same page? instead of what we saw at the trump rally even tonight. even on the heels of him being accused of exposing his own people to risk that he knows

exists. studies have shown earlier action would have saved lives. tens of thousands of lives. you know who believes that? new jersey governor phil murphy. he knows it all too well, painfully so. he was one of the early epicenters of this. welcome back to primetime, gov. >> thanks for having me. good to be with you. >> february 7th trump tells woodward he knew about airborne transmission. he says around that same space knew it was going to be worse than the flu, he knew it wasn't just old people it was young people. it was going to be bad. this was deadly stuff. you remember him telling you that? >> listen, my reaction is we were in a whole different mindset. i think i can speak on behalf of the governors who moved aggressively early, we were as early as anybody, your brother, connecticut, michigan, other states. this common thread to those actions. number one, we were voracious

and remain voraciously interested in the facts, the data, any data we could get. secondly, that data informed our policies. thirdly, we shot straight with our people. even if it was not comfortable. even if it was truth. that they necessarily didn't want to hear. we built up a bridge of trust with folks and as a result of all of that, we crushed the curve. we brought it right to, you know, as close to the ground as you can do it. and not with standing that we paid a huge price. so when i hear the february 7 anecdote, and i'm asked the question, do you think you could have saved more lives, the answer i have to believe is yes. you know this. we memorialized folks at each one of our press conferences. i speak to families of folks who have lost loved ones almost every day. the thought that i could have made one less memorial or one less phone call just if we had that extra step of data.

i think that weighs on us and it should weigh on us. >> substantiate it for people who push back. the pushback is, ah, come on. you had your own reasons to know or not know. don't put it on the president. it is not his job to tell you everything. >> i think it is his job. in fairness i think the leader of the country has to shoot straight not just with governors but i think with our entire population. the fact is as you know we have our own experts. we speak to experts around the country around the world all the time. but the federal government sits on the cdc, the nih, reams, gobs of data and experts, and they can play an existential role no one else can play. so yes we can find a lot of the answers ourselves and we did and we moved aggressively but, boy, having full insight into what the federal government knew and knows is a dimension that i wish

we had. >> well, past is history. right? the time to act is now. that is all we control. so going into the fall we know what the concern is. people actually get sick in the fall. they get all kinds of stuff. a lot of it will present and maybe be covid. you still don't have the testing to do in real time any kind of rapid testing of a significant part of your population. let alone your school population. so what are your concerns heading into fall? >> first of all, we talk about the february 7 conversation like it was an event that happened and is over. i just want to say on september 10th the president could still bend the curve in the right direction, mandating a national masking policy is the best example i can think of. we do that for three or four weeks, we have a whole different fall. so i want to make sure that we all remember this is not over. we're still playing the game. we are still in the event. listen, we've built up as much

testing capacity per capita as any american state. but god knows we can all use more. we're back to school. we're a combination of both hybrid, some modest amount of full in person. and some good amount of remote and the remote schools have all committed to a date by which they'd be back in person safely. so our principles are safety, high quality education, equity. so far i'm knocking on wood here in new jersey. so far so good. i've toured a couple in-person schools. it was really -- i was really, really impressed. you are right. the experts will tell you we could face a second wave in the fall and we have to be prepared. we're doing everything we can be. we just need the federal government to be as robust a partner as possible. >> i really believe that from the best data, you know, not all data is equal. you want accurate data. that if you get masks into places where you have community spread and you amp up testing of accurate testing that is quicker turn-around and subsidize it in places that need it, you

shouldn't have a second wave. you should be able to get kids in school and we should be able to control it with some spikes in areas that are understandable based on what we've been through. so, governor, phil murphy of new jersey, we will be here for you to make the case of what's happening and what you need as always. >> thank you, chris, for having me. >> all right, governor. god bless and be well. stay healthy. all right. so where are we? as we count down the weeks to the election let's bring in the wizard of oz. okay? he'll do a little time travel. a couple of years. why? he wants to show us where we may be headed. that was good. is that time travel? next. my derm just let me in on her little anti-aging secret-

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all right. we're going to cover trump and biden a lot. probably close to daily. i mean, we're coming right up to the election. what about biden versus clinton? what?

hillary clinton losing four years ago surprised a hell of a lot of people, right? so the wizard of odds wants to look at the numbers behind why trump versus clinton is not trump versus biden. hello, my brother, harry enten. what do you have for us today? no secret, biden is in better shape than clinton. tell us why. >> yeah, i mean, it starts off really just by looking at the national polls. look at where we are right now compared to four years ago on this date. what you see is that biden's lead nationally is not only more than double what clinton's lead was at this point, but biden is over 50%. clinton never got anywhere close to that. when you look at the polls and you're honest with yourself, there's only one conclusion to reach, christoher, and that is that joe biden is in a significantly better position right now than hillary clinton was four years ago at this point. >> popular show. swing states, please. >> yeah, i know. this is your thing all the time,

right? the swing states. here's the key nugget, right? look at these key swing states. michigan, minnesota, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and look at where joe biden is. he is up in all of them. and i know we had this discussion on tuesday night. oh, the race is closing. look at where we are right now compared to a month ago in those states. all of those polling averages are within a point of where we were last month, and in all of those key states, joe biden has a five-point lead or better. >> if you take the m.o.e. into consideration, is it more than a three to four hoff poi-point ra anywhere? >> i mean, look, if you look at those swing states and you take into account the margin of error, of course it might be closer than these averages indicate. but that is the reason we take an ave right, right, chris? it helps to shrink that margin of error and give us more confidence in these results. there have been a ton of polls conducted specifically in

pennsylvania and wisconsin. and the polls i trust the most, joe biden has never trailed in any of these states, at least over the last six months. >> florida not on your list. does it matter still as much as always? >> i mean, florida matters. look, if you're joe biden, you want to win in the state of florida, right? if you win in florida, donald trump pretty much has no map to win, but we have a slide up here if we can just flash forward to it that shows the electoral map. .and that gives you a really indication. if you just give jd in the states where his lead as five points in september, he gets to 279 electoral votes. that is enough to win and that is without florida. florida is great for joe biden, but he doesn't need it to the same extent that donald trump does. >> what this past week shows us is we are a lot farther away than just the days count. this is about moments, transition, the debate a little bit, but there's a lot that can happen that will change these

numbers one way or the other. harry enten will be along for the ride. thank you very much. we'll be right back. >> i'll be riding shotgun with you. >> yeah. we'll be back. ♪ ♪ ♪

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let's bring in d. lemon. i watched him wrestling with his tie like it was a python. >> are you kidding me? >> still wrestling. >> you're, like, three minutes early. >> well, i owed you some time. >> you did that on purpose. what did i do to you? >> only good things. >> what did i do to you? >> only good things. you look good. >> thank you, so do you. >> believe me, the less they see that tie, the better. i paid a lot of money for this. as long as it stays in place. so john bolton is on -- >> i was just going to say i saw, that was a great interview. >> and i chase him a little bit because i don't like that these guys didn't say anything when they were in office and it seems gratuitous and opportunistic just because the book is coming out. >> right. >> however, i will push back on myself while you're getting your tie straight. >> i'm good now. >> i've heard from too many of those guys for it to just be about self-interest.

there is something apparently to the notion that whether it was mattis or mcmaster or coats or bolton that, look, man, we couldn't just leave. you know, once you are aware of how reckless this guys is, as bolton says, they wouldn't leave him in the room alone with kim jong-un. >> yeah. >> they wouldn't even think about it. that you can't leave. it's too dangerous to leave this guy. and i can't really say anything because he'll go nuts. it's all he cares about and then i really have no ability to help this. >> yeah. i see -- look, i hate to be -- >> both sides cuomo. >> i hate that. i see how one could feel that way. but there are certain times and certain situations in your life where you have to say this is beyond the pale. >> right. >> this is nowhere near normal. this person is a danger and what is happening here is a danger to the democracy. >> right. >> and what they're doing is so egregious that i can no longer be a part of it. and therefore i'm going to leave. not only am i going to leave, i

am going to inform the american people about what's happening because it's really -- what this administration has -- i was watching this president today deal with the press and say things like, oh, find out for yourself and just completely spinning about, you know, -- >> saying woodward says i knew something. >> woodward's not the president. >> woodward doesn't say it. trump said it. >> the whole thing about blaming was infuriating because i'm a journalist, right? and woodward is not even a working member of the press anymore. he's an author. he was. and very respected, right? you know what he did. woodward and bernstein, but he was writing a book. >> second book. >> second book. woodward is not the president of the united states. >> right. >> woodward did not take an oath to the people. woodward does not work for the american public, and so as -- as i'm sitting here and he's spinning and lying and doing all this stuff and the press secretary kayleigh mcenany is doing the same thing, what they have forgotten, two