problem with. >> kenny smith, i really appreciate you spending some time with us tonight. thank you. >> thank you. appreciate it. thank you, some real talk right there. >> welcome to prime time. never forget, 19 years ago today is when it happened. many of you have learned about 9/11 as history. but i am all too aware that for far too many of you, almost no time has passed. and to you, my best as always. i have thought a lot about what to say tonight. it is a special 9/11, because we come to it in the midst of another crisis. i do have a closing argument for you later in the show. but the headline is, the moment we're living is proof that never forget applies. we need to remember something that we promised to never

forget. make no mistake, we are under attack again. 200,000 dead almost, 6 million plus sickened, many of them haven't recovered from covid-19, get used to the term long haulers. i am one, but i am lucky compared to a group that are enduring so much worse. the numbers we're dealing with in this, are much greater than the attacks of that day. back then, we were in a special place that we are not even close to today. we don't have the sense of right and wrong, what we mean to each other. and as much as leaders today seem to want us to see an enemy in each other, it doesn't have to be this way. look at this.

joe biden, mike pence, this is as ugly a race as i've seen, but knocking arms in a good way, at the 9/11 memorial in new york city. an elbow bump at the height of the bitter 2020 election. why? because a moment is much bigger than politics. both of them masked up, because that's not weakness, that's strength. you're going to commemorate a day where people were taken, you do it by honoring the need to keep as many people here as you can. a present national tragedy that is not getting the response we gave it back then. i know it's different. i know it's very different. and yet what it takes to get through it is not. trump said in the campaign, maybe he could have avoided 9/11. he shouldn't have said it.

i'll tell you what, i lived it. and when it hit, he was nowhere to be found. and plenty in the private sector stepped up, they were drawing on the example of a president who hadn't been that popular, but he rose to that moment. he commanded our attention to care about one another. and there was somebody else. there was a mayor i watched every day, literally come out of the ashes with strength and straight talk. eye popping straight scary talk. it made him america's mayor. just having him on the show tonight is a sign that no dispute should render us incapable of the decency and humanity we see in one another. even in the worst of times political politically, we can always be together. former new york city mayor rudy giuliani, it is an honor especially on 9/11, to have you

on the show, i've missed you. >> it's an honor to be back, and it's also a very very unbelievably important day. i know for me, and for my city, for many many reasons, very hard reasons and as you pointed out, some really beautiful things that happened as a result of that terrible attack. >> i know we spoke about this so many times over the years, it bares some reminding for the audience who doesn't know you as well today, you were in shock the first couple days, you were in straight duty mode, trying to figure out what was going on. you made decisions. you got on your feet fast and you started to tell us what you were learning as you were learning it even when it was so frightening. and we were all living on edge then that it was going to happen again. we didn't think it was a one and

done. >> i know they do. >> why did you feel that you could tell us that kind of stuff and not freak us out. but shore us up? >> it took a little while, actually, chris. you're absolutely right, when i arrived at what is now ground zero for the first time, the second plane had just hit, my police commissioner told me it was definitely a terrorist attack. the one advantage we had was, i was in office for 7 1/2 years. we had been training obsessively for a terrorist attack. we had been attacked in 1993, right before i came into office. when i came into office. i established an emergency management center we never had before. we would constantly have terrorist threats. we must have had four or five exercises and maybe 20 tabletop exercises. we had 25 different emergency management plans.

i actually thought we were prepared for anything. probably a little bit arrogant. and when i arrived at the site and i was told to look up because debris was coming down and hitting people right near me, and knocking them on the ground and some of them died. i looked up and i saw a man on the 101st floor, this is a memory that stays with me, i think every day. i watched him throw himself out the window. i watched him come down. i grabbed my police commissioner's arm and i said, this is beyond the two of us. we got lots of plans, we don't have a plan for this, you and i are just going toe have to stay calm, we're going to have to make the best decision we can make and pray to god that it was right, we're not going to make all the right decisions. >> we're showing the video by the way, the day when you were approaching -- >> it was humbling. >> the man who grabs the mayor's arm for a moment, who has no jacket on, it comes in about 15

seconds or so. we were there, the mayor was walking around kind of figuring out what was going on. everything's still happening, moving up the streets. bernie carrick comes, grabs him. he moves bernie off him and kept moving forward. that was really your disposition from that day on. you were doing something. look, i could have done the management exercises you guys were doing, i could have never did what you did in the days and weeks and months that succeeded the event. >> you probably could have. >> no way. and that's okay. that's why you were built to lead and i was built to report on people that lead. when you were telling us the things you were telling us, there are a lot of dead people underneath this. the fact that there's people alive on the mall? stop saying it, it's too hot. if they could have gotten to the top of the roof, you made sure that people knew, stop it?

no one was going to live up there, the heat was unbearable. we can show it to you. what gave you the sense that the city, the country and the world could handle the reality? >> the first night i wasn't sure, you might remember the end of my press conference the first night, i was asked how many casualties? i was about to say it, and i said i don't think people are ready to hear this yet. because i had been told originally, it was 12,000. at that time i would have said 6,000. the reason there were much fewer casualties is the unbelievable heroism of the firefighters and police officers who got more people out than anybody expected you could get out in that period of time, which is documented in the 9/11 report. i wasn't sure. and then the second day i was like, i wanted the city to come back right away. i called up the stock exchange, i said, i want you to open

tomorrow. and dick cross says, can i come over and talk to you. i wanted broadway to open right away. and people were resisting me. and by the third day i realized, first of all, i had to let people mourn in their own way. and i could start telling them a little bit more of what they were going to face. so by the third and fourth day, i started to get them ready for the fact that we weren't going to have any survivors. i knew that, i knew that the afternoon of the first day. the coroner told me -- i went to see the coroner at 5:00 on september 11th to find out how many body bags i needed. he told me, none. i said, this can't be possible. i need a couple thousand? he said, you're not going to need any. do you realize those buildings melted? if the buildings melted, what do you think happened to the

bodies? i guess they melted. you're not going to identify these people with dna, you're not going to identify them the way you're used to. that just stunned me. and it took me about two days to absorb that. so i knew i had to prepare people that first of all -- it was finally after three or four days i announced we weren't going to have any more survivors. but i knew that at 5:00 in the afternoon on september 11th. i tried to feel my way through, chris. i would make a decision. and then i'd say a little prayer. and i'd say god, i'm not sure i made the right decision, please make it right. you make it right. this is beyond me and george pataki. i had a wonderful partnership with the governor, he was willing to allow me to sort of run things, which is natural, because i understood the city

better. i mean, he knows the whole state, i know -- i grew up in new york city. i had the fortune of having been the chief prosecutor in new york for seven years, i knew every part of new york city. so he deferred to me in a way is that a lot of governors might not do, i don't know. >> also, rudy, just to be fair, i have no problem coming at you about things i don't agree with. but you had transcended the role, and ordinarily like -- may he rest in peace, as much as my father would have wanted to have a bigger footprint. you had such command of the situation, there was no need. even when the president came, president bush came and he meant so much to the city. the eyes were on you, every bit as much, because you embodied the city. i think a lot of it was the toughness you exhibited, look, i'm not going to lie to you, i'm

not going to give you some other story. this is what it is, this is what it's going to be like, and this is how it is. i just want to say something here. and i -- you know i'm asking you this in part because people need to remember on this day. i will never forget what you did for the city, what you did for my friends and the families that i know and love that lost people, by giving them a sense of what was and what wasn't. nobody should ever forget that about you. and i do so much appreciate you coming on on 9/11 for people to remember that. i also believe that the significance of these woodward tapes is important on a leadership level. you would not handle this situation the way it's being handled right now, because we saw you handle a crisis, and i know 9/11 to anything else is apples to oranges, but what do you think of the idea of the criticism that you knew things were bad and you didn't tell us

even though telling us would help us protect ourselves? you wouldn't do that? >> well, i'm not sure that's the right interpretation, chris. >> go ahead. >> there are things i knew that i never told anybody. i never told anyone about the danger the city was in of being flooded because the slurry walls in the world trade center. >> true. >> i would have done it if i knew there was a hurricane coming. i would have done it in a minute, i felt, why let them -- let me absorb that worry. i never really told them quite what really were the conditions down there. you know, we had these wonderful ceremonies with caskets and flags. i never really told them what was really there. sao you do try to be euphemistic when you're going through a crisis. and look, i really think -- it's

a big difference between these two things. >> very. we weren't prepared for airplanes hitting buildings. that was different. we had terrorist attacks before, my people were trained for it. >> the world trade center had been hit before in 1993. >> we didn't know -- >> you knew. >> last year at this time, we didn't know what covid-19 was, we had no idea what it was. in january we didn't know what it was. i think everybody, whether it's the president or the governor's, they're dealing with something very very novel and different. and i think, you know, the president made some very good decisions. closing down the country to china was an enormously significant decision, for which he was terribly criticized. another month of chinese people coming to the united states, we probably would have another

100,000 people dead. that was a great decision. the governors of march and april, i got the quotes, are talking about how cooperative he was. governor newsom, governor murphy. >> my brother was absolutely on the list of saying when the president was good to him and when he was cooperative. as they should have been. i think the china move was obviously the smart move. i feel the president is politicize it by saying biden was against it. we scrubbed this as a fact check. he never said he was against it. in fact, he said in april he was for it. i don't want to play politics with you. >> he said the president was xenophobic. >> he accused him of being -- >> he wasn't talking about the china move, he was -- >> yes, he was. >> i'm telling you, we looked at it a long time ago, we went into

context. it was good he did it. it was good he shut off travel. he made exemptions, it was a good move and it wasn't a popular move. i stipulate to that. >> he closed down europe also. >> before anybody else was warning people about what was going on. look -- >> but that changed, rudy. >> this is why i'm asking you -- let me get the context of the question and you go ahead. >> i'm not saying he did nothing right. i've never said that. never ever. i really don't deserve all the attention i get from this administrati administration. this is what i'm saying. you didn't tell everybody everything that went on, it was too painful. this is a different situation, where the president knew certain realities about how dangerous this could be and not only did he not tell us that but he also

told, especially his own supporters not to do the things that would keep them safe, rudy. that's the part i will never accept that you would have done. never. >> i wasn't part of those meetings and neither were you, i don't know what he knew at a certain period of time or what a governor or mayor knew, it was all very novel. i do put a lot of faith in dr. fauci who says the comments that he made publicly were absolutely consistent with what he was being briefed on privately. >> back in those days, fauci was telling us we didn't have to wear a mask. >> that's right, and he was wrong. >> and it's not going to be as bad as -- >> and he was wrong. >> he was telling us it wasn't going to be as bad as people think. >> he was wrong. >> the president had -- well, he was wrong because a month later he turned out to be wrong. that's the advice the president is getting at the time.

>> the advice changed. >> not not not -- those comments were made in february and repeated in march. they didn't -- >> yeah, they didn't change at that time. >> at that time, just about everybody thought it wasn't going to be anywhere near as bad as it was. >> absolutely true. in january and early february, they started to give the president different projections and recommendations. >> you think fauci's lying? >> no. but he's saying the president reflected the advice he was given by his advisers. >> yeah, but hold on. this isn't the right -- keep it in context. what tony fauci said was, to his recollection he never briefed the president on something, and then had him go out and say something else. that assumes this information all came from tony fauci, which it did not. we know in the tape that in february, he was told things

about the potential severity of this. it's not that bad, it's not like the flu. when he knew it wasn't, could be. guess what, i'll give you that too, maybe you don't want to panic people. >> i don't know of anything -- >> i have the time line right in front of me. >> i don't know about anything he found out in february. >> february 7th he told woodward. >> it's not about fauci. fauci was giving the message about masks and getting yelled at for giving it after he changed. they didn't want him to say it. >> how would president trump know the severity of covid 19 in february. he would have had to have been a prof fett -- that's the time people were telling people to go out and have a good time. >> no, they weren't. that's what trump was saying. >> up until march. >> no, no, no, no. --

>> one president. >> he tells them to go to chinatown at the -- >> let's say nancy pelosi was wrong, she's not president. >> comments from pelosi, from your brother, from other people. in february that this was not going to be -- >> first of all, they were getting their information from the president and the federal agencies. >> they were getting their information -- they were getting the same information the president was getting. >> that's right. and in february, they started to shift. and he didn't. >> february 7th, trump told woodward the coronavirus is more deadly than the flu. two weeks later he told sanjay gupta that wasn't true. this is the more important part. i'll give you, they all didn't know anything, they're all confused. >> maybe, maybe. >> here's the bigger point. he wasn't just not telling them things he knew. i'll give you that. maybe that's good leadership, i don't know, i don't want to debate it. but he also knew that people should be wearing masks, should

be socially distancing, because this was going to be worse than we had thought. and he didn't tell them that, he told them to do the opposite. why? >> well, you know, i'm going to tell you why, when you sit in a room and you have five or six advisers, i'm sure he got conflicting information and advice. i don't remember the time line add well as you do. but i do remember a number of doctors saying that wearing a mask wouldn't help at all. >> that was way early. >> that lasted until at least march? >> no. >> i remember them saying that. >> the people around him were saying the opposite, they were wearing masks. >> the mask could help. in fact, i found it very difficult to wear a mask. i can't breathe when i have it on. >> i'm not saying it's easy. >> i tripped twice -- >> i know, and they fog up and stuff. you would do it to save lives. >> i put it down here. >> you're a smart guy, i knew you would figure it out.

the president is doing this. he said, they're turning the curve up there they're not wearing masks, masks are option at, why rudy, why not tell them where the mask. >> you think it's as bad now -- the mortality rate has been cut by 80%. >> the case numbers are still growing there. >> we have to look at -- it's not the case numbers. a lot of the covid diagnoses the new york times said are questionable. how many people died? i mean, we got all kinds of illnesses, the ones have you to fight. >> sick matters, rudy. >> sick matters, it does, but we can get sick from any number of things. >> not sick like this, rudy. i told you several times, god forbid take care of yourself. >> the reason we closed the

country is because we felt the hospitals were going to be overloaded with patients, they couldn't hand el. it would crack our medical system. and the fatality rate at that time was 4 or 5%, because it was in the early stages. it's down to 1% or lower right now, and our hospitals are not overloaded. >> that's because so many places did the right thing. rudy, you would have done the same thing they did in new york during this. if you had the information that the numbers were going to go this way and people needed to separate and be their own prof ilaxis -- >> i wouldn't keep the city closed as long as they -- >> hold on, one step at a time. >> no, you're wrong. i think what they're doing to this city could be fatal. >> that's now. that's now. i don't want to -- we'll talk about now. but i'm saying -- >> they're overdoing it now. >> again, rudy. >> they're killing this city. you talk to these people in the restaurants. >> i'm not debating you about now. let's go to then and then we can

come back to now. >> i can't remember then as well as now. >> well, listen. then matters and i'll tell you why, it's not just because -- i'm one of the lucky ones, it's not like i got some axe to grind -- >> god bless you for getting through it. >> thank you, i appreciate that. >> i was praying for you, chris. >> i know you were, and i know we've had our disagreements and you've been angry at me. you know my respect is very -- >> that's what we need to remember in this place. for you and me it's easy. i've had respect for you my entire life, that will never change. i don't have to like what you do and you don't have to like what i do for -- >> i have that respect for you and your family you know it. >> thank you, mr. mayor, i appreciate it. >> everybody should have a family like yours, my friend. >> well, i don't know about that. >> i'm talking about your brother and particularly your mother. >> one is enough. >> but this is what i'm saying. >> and your wife and kids and your dad who you know i admired

tremendously. even though i disagreed with him, i admired him as an italian american he was a hero to me when i was your age. >> pop respected what you did especially then. it was hard. >> i wish we could do that -- can i say one thing, a little different? we have to get back to that. i saw you show that picture of pence and biden and i remember -- i wrote an op ed piece when your brother and murphy and a few people praised the president. i said, this is wonderful, they're getting above politics. we got to find ways to do that. we got to find ways, i mean, i -- i was a republican mayor in a democratic city. i had to get alone with people. the head of the city council, i couldn't pass a thing without him. the first day i was mayor, i walked into his office, i said, peter, i'm the new mayor, know that. we know each other not that well. i want you to know i really respect you. he said, no mayor's ever walked

into my office before. they always require me to come over. i said, well, i need you peter, i'm not going to bull you, i need you. i need you to get through the city council, i'm willing to compromise if you are. >> that's called politics. it's called doing deals. >> we sometimes called each other names and fought with each other. >> i remember well. >> a few times we made believe we were fighting. we had a deal, but to satisfy my whack cos and to satisfy his wackos we pretended we were fighting with each other. >> it's okay when you're dead. >> your line the does not play that way, i'm exhibit a of that. >> it's a different time. >> i know, but decency -- >> you think a country needs what it's going through right now? the president should treat me as someone who should be destroyed

and attacked on a regular basis? is that what the country needs? >> i think if -- i think if you would treat him -- from his point of view. i'll tell you his point of view. if you would treat him more fairly and your network would, you would find him to be enormously appreciative and very willing to work with you. from the day he came into office a lot of the democrats wanted to impeach him from day one. >> that's not me, that's not the free press. >> i know it's not you, but the press has been brutal on him. >> it's not about me. what i'm saying -- >> from my point of view, i've never seen a president brutalized like this. >> you've also never seen a president put out what he's put out. this president -- >> i think he's fighting back to -- he's trying to get his message out. >> and his message is, the media is your enemy, the blacks are your enemy. >> they are. >> the immigrants are your enemy.

>> the media is not the enemy. >> the illegal immigrants. >> the illegal immigrants are not your enemy, they're just not coming in the right way. >> they need to come in in the right way. >> you don't demonize them as rapists. >> he demonized ms-13. >> that's way beyond, rudy. if this were a generation ago, trump would have been saying this about your parents and mine. >> no, he won the. >> my parents and your parents didn't sell drugs. >> not ms-13, just the unwashed immigrants. >> chris, the ones he's talking about are the ones who commit crimes of which there are a fairly -- >> he went way beyond that, rudy. >> he did notp i know him really well. he is not referring to illegal immigrants who come here and

they just want a job. he is sympathetic with that. >> he said, those caravans are filled with bad people. >> well, they are. >> they're going to come here. >> in some cases they are. >> in lower percentages of bad people than our citizens, rudy. >> come on, i'm just saying, you know what he's doing, rudy. >> you don't have to deal with the people that come over the border. you haven't met with like he has the families of children that were killed by illegal criminals. >> yes, i have, i covered it. the system should be changed. change the rules. >> that's what he wants to do. >> no he doesn't. he said i want to do the wall, it plays better. >> no, no, he had a deal -- >> i don't want to go that far back. >> they didn't want to give him a victory. >> he walked away -- he wants to get the same protection that

allowed his wife to bring her family into the country. >> he wants to stop immigrants from coming over so they don't hide with them, chris. that's what he wants to do. however you interpret what he's concerned about are krimen ats who hide with the other illegal immigrants that come in here. >> that's always been the concern, nobody ever air rad indicated the entire policy, that's what he wants to do. >> your party is in favor of an open border. >> then they're wrong and they should lose the debait on is that issue. i have no problem with that. you never heard anyone come on my show and -- >> we can't have an open border. >> i'm not saying -- >> i've never made that argument, and i've never condoned it on my show. demonizing the people. >> he would be willing -- let me tell you honestly, he would be willing to compromise. >> then do it. >> he has sympathy for the

people who are here illegally, who are working and are not criminals. >> all right, fine. >> he has great concern about the ones who are criminals and victimizing our people. >> let's see him do it, that's fine. if you're worried about crimes, that are a lot of places to look before you look at illegal immigrants. i'm fine with suring up the rules. i've covered it on the show many times. i want to get to something else. you say we have to get back to decency. we had our fights about what you were doing in ukraine and what that was about. i believe it was an obvious political research campaign to take down biden. >> i didn't do an opo research campaign, i'm a layer. this all goes back. i finished what i was doing a year ago. so it was part of my representation of my client to show that a lot of the information from the steele dossier, a lot of the information that was attributed to sources and other sources

came from the ukraine. i was able to prove that. based on russian collusion. when i did that. mueller was still investigating russian collusion. he didn't conclude that until late march, april of last year. >> right. >> i was collecting information as a defense lawyer to defend my client. >> i'm not accusing you of trying to defend your client. you're looking for information to frame biden and make him look as bad as what trump looked. >> i wasn't trying to frame biden. i was told that biden got bribed. >> yeah, you were told by smaddy people. >> i've got -- no, i wasn't. i was told by direct witnesses. >> i know they were direct witnesses, but there are people who are found to be shady. >> the new prosecutor over there, said once and for all, biden had nothing to do with

what's wrong with barisma. i'm not saying the company is okay, the prosecutors are not part of the company's problems. that's what i'm saying, you know that's what he said. >> biden, biden -- the biden family got anywhere from 8 to $10 million, some of it laundered, i got the documents. >> he en this do the have any proof of that. they have this guy, kolonitsky, head of anti-corruption -- >> chris, you can't stop me in the middle of an answer. >> the context matters. let's put an end to this for once and for all. biden jr. and biden sr. do not appear in this proceeding. >> totally untrue. i can show you the documents. will you let me finish the answer? >> i can show you a document in this $14.3 million is laundered.

this is a latvian, ukrainian document, and 3 million of that goes to biden's kid. look, the biden family enriched themselves in iraq, in ukraine, and unbelievably in china. >> if you cared about that so much, rudy, and first of all, i'm not stipulating to those facts, the guy investigating it doesn't come to the same -- >> you don't have to. >> if you're upset that his son is making deals he shouldn't make, you have ivanka trump getting trademarks from china, she just got one in the last week, she's working for the united states of america and cutting her own business deals. why would you support trump ever if you are worried about that kind of conduct. >> if you're worried about the conduct, you should be worried that biden's song has the chinese business as his partner. >> his guys say he made none. >> he won't disclose -- >> his guys say he hasn't made any. >> he has.

>> he owns a piece of the company, he hasn't make any money. i want to end where we started. >> i hope we do, this is unsatisfying when you can't answer the question, chris. if you're going to ask me a question. >> i'm giving you full opportunities. >> i didn't -- i did not do opo research on joe biden, i was defengding my client in the most honorable way a lawyer can do. and i have been defamed with that charge. >> i am not trying to defame you. i'm saying that's what it looked like to me. >> if people had paid attention to the dates, they would have seen that i did it well before biden was even a candidate for president. >> there's also concern about you getting schnookered by these guys. that was part of the concern. >> i have the documents and the proof, and the witnesses. >> right, but some of this stuff, the 2016 conversation

between biden and porishenko was used. this is the same stuff that that guy derkach who now our government is saying he's a bad guy. >> i never used that conversation -- >> why would you even meet with this guy. >> he's no part of my report. my report to the state department was rendered five months before i knew his name. >> why would you meet with this guy? >> it has to do with direct witnesses. i interviewed him, because he had additional information. what he gave me was a document from the ukrainian government going back to january of 2017. saying that $5.3 billion in foreign aid is unaccounted for. >> he's called by our government to be a russian operative and a propaganda pusher. >> please, please, please let me finish. >> go ahead. >> two people have already been indicted by the ukrainian

government for embezzling about $140 million. two of them are close associates of george soros two months ago. >> so what? what does that have to do with anything? >> they run -- what it has to do with is the fact that our foreign aid was being diverted to ngo's illegally. that's the document that durkach gave me. >> our government seems to see him differently than that. but i wanted to let you answer -- >> there's -- >> you know our government sees andre as a guy that should note be respected or trusted and they think he's a propagandist -- >> that's okay, they can see him that way. he is not. he doesn't have a single bit of information about biden. >> that seems to be true. >> all the witnesses. but he has none. >> i believe that. >> i rendered my report about biden six months before i even know the name durkach.

at best, he's a hearsay witness who has read documents. >> i would keep him out of it -- >> they haven't given any information particularly about biden. >> i want to ask you one more thing. >> this is a complete diversion. >> good, then let's leave him alone. our memory of this day foreme will never change, and your role and your righteousness and your righteousness of purpose -- >> i appreciate that, chris. >> if i were to say anything else, i would be lying. i do want to know, though, don't you believe that from now going-forward. we're not out of this pandemic thing. it's -- we're not as bad as we were, but we don't know where it's going to go. >> i agree. >> do you agree this president should be telling people wear masks, socially distance. don't go to crowded situations. do what you can to keep yourself safe? >> well, he certainly says that. >> no, he doesn't.

>> i think the question of social distancing, masks, a lot of that depends on where you are, how bad it is there. there are very very different situations in this country. >> true, but in the places where they have community spread like in michigan where he just was. >> it's not a factor. >> in michigan where he just was, their case numbers are growing at a rate that has the governor worried about events like this. should he be holding an event like this? >> let's not talk about the governor of michigan, please. >> the numbers are the numbers. let's not bring politics into it. pandemic zng the have any part sang feelses, it kills us all. the numbers are the numbers, rudy. >> we're going to have to disagree about that. >> there's community spread. >> we're going to have to disagree. >> there's community spread in michigan everywhere that was relevant to this, to have people with their kids with no masks in a crowded area, you would do that? >> chris. i don't have all the facts. when i look at the mortality

rate, the fatality rate of the disease now, it's different than it was three months ago. we're in a different world right now. we're in a world of 1% fatality. >> people are still getting sick, the numbers have plateaued. >> i faced a ten -- i faced a 10% fatality rate when i got prostate cancer. these are things you face in life and you have to move forward. you can't stop your whole economy. >> yes, but you did what you could to beat the cancer. >> how many people -- we had to do it, but how many people did we kill with the shutdown? how many people didn't get diagnosed with cancer. how many people had hard attacks that weren't addressed. how much domestic violence was there, how much depression. i don't know, but a lot. >> i don't know that you're asking the right question. >> you can't do a shutdown -- >> you're not asking the right question. because -- >> while they were straining

their resources to take care of people, it's how many people won the have died. how many people wouldn't have been sick. >> i have a good friend that runs a -- >> if the pan denlic was a hoax, how many people would still be with us. >> he never said it was a hoax. that's an unfair comment. >> that's an unfair comment. but shutting down being a bad thing is a fair comment? >> i'm not disagreeing with the shutdown, i'm just untiling you, you have to understand there's a -- another side to it, we killed people with the shutdown. >> no. >> maybe we had to do it. but you have to stop it -- >> you saved people with the shutdown. >> you killed other people. not everyone dies of covid-19. chris, a lot of people die of heart attacks. >> it was about saving people, rudy, and it still is. >> of course it had a risk. people couldn't get cancer treatment.

people couldn't get diagnosed with cancer. >> i have not heard -- >> a week or two weeks -- >> i have not heard nor seen a single clinician put out anything that says, you know what, on balance we would have been better off without the shutdown. we actually shouldn't have done it. >> i didn't say that. >> that's a false metric, by saying having the shutdown may have been bad too. >> come on. chris. it's something as a leader you have to consider before you shut down an entire economy. you got to consider it, if if you don't consider it, you're totally irresponsible. you have to consider, if if you close down an entire economy. if you say people can't go for elective surgery, sometimes elective surgery is what saves your life. some people are going to die if you do that. >> 200,000 people died in this country. we have millions and millions of cases. >> well, many more would have -- >> cases in georgia and florida, good for you don't be like

everyone else, they ended up having catastrophic consequences in that state. >> they didn't have catastrophic consequences. they had a lot of -- >> they had a huge spike in cases. >> diminishing people dying of it. >> now -- >> the number is way down. >> now. but then it was way up, thanks to him letting it run rampant by encouraging people to do stupid things. >> maybe we should remind people the real source of this virus is china. >> that's who trump said he was getting his advice from what the virus would do. now it's the change in a virus, it's a bad thing. then he said xi is doing a great job. i'm getting my info from him. >> everyone accused him of being a xeno phobe for a month. >> well, he can be a xeno phobe. you know what's happening back in china, they're getting back to life now, faster than us. let's end where we started. >> give him credit for

something. >> i give him credit for doing the right things. for keeping tony fauci. >> why don't we call it a draw. >> you win, having you on the show. >> a long day, and a difficult day, and i thank you very much for understanding that. and i really like the fact that i came on your show tonight. it makes me feel good, i really love you. >> rudy, i love you, i love what you did for my city. >> i can disagree -- we see the world differently. >> that's okay. that's okay. >> we can argue what happens, as long as we agree that -- >> i'm so happy -- >> thank you very much. and you too, you had your own big fight. you're always welcome on this show. >> i'll be back now. okay? >> rudy giuliani. >> now that we've made the peace, like in the godfather. >> no more illusions to the godfather. i love you, rudy giuliani, thank you for what you did, we'll disagree but with decency, you be well especially on this day, thank you for what you did.

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former white house communications director anthony scaramucci is here. thanks for joining me. i know this is a hard day for you and a lot of people you know. and those you lost. god bless their memories and god bless you and your family. i have three minutes. give me a mix of how rudy led and what rudy thinks of how the president is doing on this. what you think versus the reality of what the woodward tapes show us. >> chris, i love the mayor. you love the mayor, i'm glad to see him back on the show. he was a savior to the city back then. i'll always remember what he did. i think he's misguided on what the president's doing. i'll remind the mayor he was reading roy jenkins biography of churchill when the towers came down. it inspired him. i would encourage him to go back

and read that biography. what the president is doing right now is the opposite of what clutch ilwill do. the woodward tapes are everything you need to know about this president. it's a surge ing general's warning label for the future of the world and the mayor doesn't see it the way i see it. i love him anyway. >> your compliant makes somebody an anmy and endorses people trying to seek out violence against them and destroying families online. what i don't get is, we always have the same chfronversation. this has to matter to the base. the base supports trump despite him as a person. their frustration and anxiety matters more. when he was telling you not to wear a mask and do whatever you want when he knew in the same

places it could make them sick, will that still not matter? >> for a lot of them it won't. last night interviewing people and said the pandemic is a hoax. they bought into the president's non-sense and lies. you know he's vicious. i tried to help the guy. he comes after me and my family. what president does that. he's a disgrace. and a bully. the bully is not supposed to win in america. that's why we're rallying and organizing against him to make sure we send him home. >> if this doesn't matter, and things in the swing states are as tight, do you think that the democrats and how they have dealt with the -- everybody should be on the same page. more equality in the society. the message that look at the violence that they think is okay, do you think there could be a losing case for the

democrats? >> well, i do. the president knows how to tell the big lie. he's telling people joe biden wants to defund the police. he doesn't want to defund the police. remember the president is the president. he's controlling the bully pulpit. so my message to the biden campaign you have to go five times harder on the messages and let people know they will be safe in the suburbs and the city. this is donald trump's america. all this catastrophe is happening. i'm worried about that. >> may 31, less than a week after george floyd. biden said burning down communities needless destruction is not american. the facts are there. biden has to make the case for himself. thank you for being with me. god bless you and your family. >> you too. especially on this day. >> never forget. we'll be right back. who've got their eczema under control.

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rudy giuliani did great things for the city on ni9/11. is he still the same man? that's for you to decide. we mus never forget. 9/11 was death come way too early for far too many. i'm so sorry for so many people. and i wish the survivors and loved ones solace still. i will never forget the sites and sounds and the smell. i was in that hell scape. watching those who couldn't escape. it was rescues not a moment too soon and for many it was too late. it was ash everywhere. i keep it with me still. this was what was on me and around me. it was everywhere. and on everyone. it wasn't ash, it wasn't moon dust. it was all too much of this

earth. building and everything else that was in it. pulverized in our eyes. gone.d with tears but never - spread everywhere. on everyone. still found months later in places you didn't think to look with eyes that neuter roar and death and despair. never forget. remember too what came after. how we cried. and dug and buried and hugged and fought. and mourned and pitied and paid and patriots all. we were angry at them. but just as passionate in our commitment to us. there was no color or kind. there was just like minds. just for a minute. streets filled with quiet courtesy. communities making we of me. remember, god bless america replaced the anthem for a

minute. as we were open in our collective call for help from above, from below and anywhere. so many were lost. but new family was found. must that moment only be made by a bomb? we need each other now as we did then. hard types make strong people. in the worst we see america at her best. it is still true. if we are led to it. not away. we can make ours ourselves better as we did. we always have. never forget. never forget. that's all for us tonight. thank you for watching. "cnn tonight" starts now. >> it's amazing. every single year. when it happens. i still look up and expect to see the twin towers. and they're not there. and it's just a reminder of what

happened and what used to be. and seeing rudy giuliani on really brings it all back. >> there is a tale of two rudys. you'll never make me not remember what he did for the city and for me. i watched him up close. i watched him. is that who he is today? >> no. >> my opinion, no. time goes on. men meet moments different ways. i don't understand why he gives this president the gift of his loyalty. and the risk of his own reputation. i just don't know why. >> well, because he's not getting power out of it. he doesn't need it. he has the money. he has the legacy. i don't know why he defends a man against things he would never have done himself. >> i think it is