bremacing for potential fights over ballots, both campaigns have beefed up their legal tenee level lawsuits. pamela brown, cnn, washington. >> thanks very much to pamela and to you for joining "ac 360" starts now. welcome, our guest tonight is bob woodward. his book cannot be more timely. the title is "rage." the subject is donald trump's leadersh leadership. more than 195,000 americans died. we're experiencing a steep recession in the presidential election a little more than a month and a half away. bob woodward spoke 18 times to the president in the making of the book. he recorded the conversations and you'll hear many exchanges for the first time tonight. others have already been released and they have become front page news establishing in the president's own words he knew very early on just how deadly and contagious covid-19 was. he did not share that with the

public, with the people health, security and welfare are supposed to be any president's first priority. what's more, the president suggested to woodward on the conversation on the 19th of marg marge, his priority was to hold it down. he said he wanted to minimize panic. we'll speak with bob woodward about that and more over the next hour. the book is called "rage." thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> so jared kushner today said president trump was very forthcoming with the american people about what he knew and when he knew it. i want you to respond to that but before you do, i want to play a conversation you had with president trump back on april 13th about the virus. >> this thing is a killer. if you're the wrong person, you don't have a chance. >> yes, yes, exactly. and -- >> like a friend of mine died very great real estate developer from manhattan died yesterday. >> listen.

students of mine, i teach a journalism seminar have written me have had it and one of the women said she had it. they said she was cured, and they kept coming back with the new symptoms, strange things happen. she had intense headaches. she -- >> what happened? >> she is in agony and they are telling her, oh, you're cured now. you're over it. so this -- i mean, you've said it. this is a scorge and. >> the plague. >> it is the plague. and the -- >> and bob, it's so easily transmissible, you wouldn't believe it. >> i know. >> you can be in the room. i was in the white house couple of days ago, meeting of ten people in the oval office and a guy sneezed innocently, not a

tomorr normal -- the entire room veiled out, including me, by the way. >> today kushner is saying the president was forthcoming with us about what he knew and when. that's not the tone or the content we heard from the president. >> or the words and let me take you to the scene in the oval office, the end of january, january 28th when the national security advisor to the president robert o'bryan said mr. president, this virus is going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency. he said it with passion. this was a top secret intelligence briefing, the deputy stepped in and said i agree. pottinger is the person. it seems perfectly placed by accident. he had been in china as a

reporter for the "wall street journal" for seven years. he knew the chinese lie. he told the president this. he had contacts in china. reliable doctors who said to him, this is going to be like the 1918 spanish flu. the president asked questions. f fast forward ten days later. he had been on the phone with president xi. i thought it was china. it was the united states and tragically unfortunate ly he gae

his speech, the famous state of the union speech to the congress 40 million people watched. he spent 15 seconds on it saying we're doing everything that we can. this is the moment the leader would say i got a warning trouble is comeing but then he goes on saying i didn't want to tell the truth because i would panic people. that's not what people in this country do when they're told the truth. >> yeah, americans rise to the occasion as long as they feel they're getting a straight deal from somebody. president trump said to you on those recordings released last week he believes in down playing the virus. he likes to down play it. he still likes to down play it.

he was asked moments ago as part of a town hall on another network he was participating in, i want to play the exchange and question he was asked and what he said and have you respond. >> why would you down play a pandemic that is known to disproportionately harm low income families in minority communitys? >> yeah, well, i didn't down play it. i actually in many ways up played it in terms of amazing. literally, he said to you he likes to down play it for the record. in fact, let's play him telling you he likes to down play it. >> it's not just old people, bob. today and yesterday startling facts have come out. >> so give me a moment of talking to somebody, going through this with fauci or somebody who kind of caused a

p pivot in your mind because it's clear on the public record you went through a pivot on this to oh my god, the gravity that's unexplicable and unexplainable. >> to be honest with you -- >> sure, i want you to. >> i always wanted to play it down. i still like playing it down because i don't want to create a panic. >> i always want to play it down, i still like playing it down and tonight at this town hall he says he up played it. he doesn't play it down. >> we are living in this world that is not just about some political problem or some geopolitical problem. it's about the lives of people in this country, and he was told

he knew. he told me about it. i thought it was about china and quite frankly, it took me three months to find out about that key jan 28th meeting in the oval office, which was a top secret intelligence briefing and the briefer from the intelligence community is saying well, there are problems in china but they are working on it and that's when the national security advisor and the deputy stepped in. i have witnesses to this participants in this and said no, no and pushed a very contrari contrary view based on facts and experience. >> but it's interesting because later on in an interview, you mentioned the o'bryan saying this is going to be the biggest

national security challenge for you. he didn't even remember his national security advisor saying that to him or he claimed he -- >> but here -- he didn't want to talk about it. >> i mean, we have that tape. look at the dodge here. it's classic. it's so quite frankly, sick. i asked the president specifically about that. this is in may after i had learned about it. i said do you remember your national security advisor saying that this virus is going to be not the biggest national security challenge. it's going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency. your president of this country and you know what the president said? i asked, do you remember it? he said no, but then he said but

i know he said it. i know he said it. so he doesn't remember it but twice he told me he knows o'bryan said it. what kind of -- you know, i don't know how to not -- my job is not to be emotional and i've done it for 50 years and i tried to bleach the emotions out of it, but this is a story and unfortunately, it's not over. we're right in the middle of the damn pandemic and you talk to the doctors as i have and the experts and if we had received the kind of warning and this is what you as citizens can do, this could be over. >> yeah. >> many people. i mean, there are estimates, i'm

not sure what estimate you're going to believe but some of them go up to 180,000 people would not have died of those 195,000. >> i want to -- you know, you said orwellian. way. to play a conversation where the president talks about the respon >> this will be the history we start the first draft of. and it will continue and -- >> so you think the virus totally supersedes the economy? >> oh, sure. but they're related, as you know. >> a little bit, yeah. >> a little bit? >> more than a little bit, but the economy is doing -- look, we're close to a new stock market record. >> yeah. but you have tens of millions of

people in this country who are your citizens who don't have jobs and don't have that money coming in that came in for a number of months and, you know, i always worry as you and i've discussed that in my position of privilege that i don't realize that enough and, you know, that's going to be part of the election. it's going to be -- >> i agree. >> what's fascinating to me about that. him saying, you know, you think -- with genuine surprise in his voice, you think the virus totally supersedes the economy. he's talking about his record, his legacy like he's not talking about human lives or, you know, i mean, to him, the high stock market that was the be all and end all.

>> yeah. i mean, just listening to it again i remember participating in it. this wasn't two months ago or last year. that was one month ago when he called me to see if i could get the deal between the israelis and the uae into the book. i said the book was closed. it was not possible and i told him quite directly, i said there are judgments i make in the book that i feel i have to make as an independent reporter and you're not going to like them. it's going to be tough. at the end, he said to me well, it looks like i didn't get you on this book. i'll get you on the next one. >> and then is that the conversation once he knew it would be tough he tweeted it

would be fake? >> yes, actually, one hour and 30 minutes later he tweeted out i guess as he thought some sort of defense. now, this morning he was asked about the book on fox news and he said he read it last night. okay. >> he's not known to be a big reader and certainly not a speed reader. >> and he said it's very boring and then the anchor on fox news said thank you, asked him is it accurate? you know what the president said? i mean, i want to be accurate here. he said, it's okay. i mean, it's fine. and, you know, he'd been out saying it's a political hit job and all of these things. i don't know to be honest whether he's got it straight in

his head what is real and what is unreal. that is why at the end of the book i say in totality my judgment is this is the wrong man for the job. how can you have the experience of living this white house the way i have for the last four plus years? and having not just discussions with him but people in the white house, people in the cia, people in the pentagon, people in the state department trying to get the whole picture of what this administration is. how can you have that experience and not reach that conclusion? >> what you just said, though, is pretty terrifying and that he doesn't know what is -- i don't want to paraphrase but the difference between what is real

and not real and in his head he doesn't know -- >> the evidence is right -- >> right. i agree with you but it's terrifying to hear you say it given the fact you interviewed so many presidents. is there any other president you interviewed who you would say the same thing of, they don't know the difference? >> no. and it's -- look, the responsibility he has, i mean, there are two pillars is he told me once that the job of the president is to pick -- i'm sorry, to protect the people and the second job is to tell the truth and i can get out franklin roosevelt's quotes in those wonderful fire side chats two days after pearl harbor. what did roosevelt say? it's all bad news. the very survival of this america is at stake here and i'm calling on everyone. we're going to have to work on

this every month, every week, every hour, every minute and then he said -- this is roosevelt. i mean, play it. it will bring you to tears because roosevelt said well, i'm counting on everyone to deal with all of this and not lose heart. >> we didn't hear anything like that from this president. >> no, not even close and i spent hours digging into this and asking about his fundamental attitudes and if you look at what's in the book and what's on these tapes, you find and this is part of the paradox. he submitted to an interrogat n interrogation. you heard it. i said whoa, wait a minute. what do you mean just a little bit of a connection between the

economy and the virus? and when he -- i pushed back he says, oh, yeah, well, you know, it's a lot. of course, it a lot. >> we got to take a short break. more on it when we come back. what president trump says on kim jong-un and what he thinks of president george bush and bob woodward's thoughts on the president when we come back. hey mercedes? ♪ introducing the future of fitness. it's every class you can imagine, live. welcome back to the mirror. you've got this

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we're talking tonight with bob woodward and key moments including as the presidencys those moments in his own words, he said and not being bob woodward here when it comes to the pandemic, the president doesn't have this straight in his head. they are taken from conversations with the author and we're hearing many of them for the first time. this next exchange, it's long about four minutes but it really i think important and i haven't heard it before. president trump continued to tell you he's doing a great job and when you press him on realities of what is going on, he doesn't budge. i just want to play this. >> the question is going to be we're going to look back and we're going to say the end of july, august, september, october what happened with the virus? did people -- people want, you know, we've talked about this. people want their president to succeed. now, you're right. there are some people who don't. >> no, no, no, people don't want me to succeed.

>> but if you succeed, they succeed. >> even the rhinos don't want me to sec pseudo. i have opposition like nobody has and that's okay. i had that all my life. i've always had it. my whole life has been like this. in the meantime right now i'm looking at the white house, okay? i'm staring right at the walls of the white house. >> where are you? >> my opposition all my life more than most and let's see how it turns out. we got 10 five days. let's see how it turns out. i think it's going to turn out. >> okay. today at 5:00 -- >> i was unlucky with the virus because it came in if it was me or anybody else -- >> but you got it. the country has got it and the world has got it but you're in charge of this country, and, you know -- >> and we've done better than any other country just about done better than any other country handling it and it's a

bigger, more diverse, more difficult country and we've done better than -- other than with the press. other than with the press i've done a great job. with the press, i can't do a good job because it's fake. it's fake news. it's a fake group of people and you know it and you won't write it. >> okay. are you -- >> it's one of those things, bob. >> are you going to acknowledge that in the last six, seven months you made some mistakes in judgment on the virus? >> i'll see how it all turns out. let's see how it all turns out. we took a chance on vaccines. you wouldn't be looking at vaccines for three years. we're looking at them next week. >> no, i understand. i understand. >> no, no, what you don't understand. -- >> i do. i do. >> the fda and scheduling. a vaccine takes years before it ever even gets tested. we're testing vaccines for three weeks already. >> you're in charge of the national interest and the national -- >> will i get credit for it?

probably not. i'll take the credit for it. >> no, you are in charge. i've learned one thing in 50 years in writing about nine presidents. nine. including you going back to nixon. ford, regan, obama, you name it and that is presidents have power extraordinary power and people are leaning on you and i'm saying for -- >> they do have extraordinary power but in my case, they never accepted it and never accepted this president because there are a bunch of dishonest people and despite my campaign we caught them. despite after and before we won and we caught them cold. let's so what happens. >> we're indeed going to see. is there any lesson you take because i think this is so important. i have -- i keep -- because i'm in the business of trying to

understand other people. i keep learning about how do you really understand people? how do i understand you? i mean, you and i -- >> you don't understand me. you don't understand me. but that's okay. you'll understand me after the election. but you don't understand me now. >> you don't think so? >> no. i don't think so. i don't think you get it. >> what are the questions i've not asked that have not been answered? >> i think you've asked me a lot of very good questions, a lot of personal questions. i think you've asked me a lot of good stuff. >> it's a fascinating exchange. the sense of him being a victim and, you know, a lot of it we've heard before of him constantly going after the press, of course and saying that obama spied on him. you know, the usual stuff that we've heard from him but he's saying in a conversation it reminded you of tapes you've heard that were released by the nixon library of nixon would

seemingly late at night rambling and talking about enemies. >> but he's angry. he's so angry. he's angry at me. he's angry at democrats. he's angry at republicans. and as i -- >> he sees himself as a victim. >> he sees himself -- yes, as a victim and he's just striking out at everyone but i learned from my colleague carl bernstein 45 years ago, i remember we were talking. we spent a lot of time together working on the nixon case. we would sit in mcdonalds and have coffee and big macs and somebody was really angry about something and carl said, you know, anger is really pain. somebody is feeling pain.

and i'm not a psychiatrist. i can't leap to that. when i listened to trump on this and i reflected back on what carl had said, what's going on here? then you connect it to this orwellian, we know it's a hit job. just today, this morning he acknowledged that he wanted to assassinate syrian president assad, and that mattis then secretary of defense wouldn't let him or talked him out of it. i have in my first book two years ago feared exactly that scene where trump calls mattis and i can't use the language but he says, you know, let's f-ing kill him in a furry about and i

understand the emotions because he'd seen actual video of a gas attack on women and children by assad but what did mattis do? he said oh, we'll get right on it, mr. president and turned to one of his aids and said we're not going to do that. we'll find a measured response and they did. >> yeah. i want to move on to another compelling portion of the book that focuses on the president and dealings with north korean leader kim jong-un and it's so interesting to me in the letters that you've read about what kim jong-un said and how he played to the president's weaknesses which are his flattery. the president, you know, the times i interviewed him during the campaign, you know, he's -- i never met somebody at that level who has that wealth or alleged wealth he has who is so needy for some sort of

recognition and, you know, flattery and so susceptible to it. i want to play part of your conversations. he's showing you photos of the two of them at one of the summits, the idea he's showing you photos is bizarre to me and we want to warn viewers, the president uses profanity but these are his words important context for the conversation. we'll play this. >> look at that picture. he's having a good time. you know. nobody has ever seen him smile. look at him smile. he's happy. he feels happy. but he's very smart. remember this, when you take over and i really mean this, too. you take over a country and you're 25 years old and you survive. you've got millions of people that are all smart as hell and energetic. >> they show you references of camps in north korea. president bush once told me about kim's father, kim jong-un

said i love kim jong-un because of what he's doing to his people and for -- >> you know what? that attitude got him nothing. in the meantime, they built a huge nuclear force during the last two administrations. they haven't done it during me. you hear reports that they will start again but for three years, i get nothing. >> has he given you -- >> they say president trump agreed to meet. what the -- it's a meeting. i agreed to meet. sitting home reading your book. >> i mean, he blows right through your question about the human rights abuses and consenscentration camps in nort korea. i wonder what you made of the response. >> and then he told me actually that kim jong-un, the current leader killed one of his uncles and put the head on the body,

and trump makes the point that you thought politics was rough here in the united states, look at this. so -- and there is -- >> what is it about him and dictators? >> well, we have that tape where he says extraordinary tape just out of blue. he said well, i get along with the turkish leader erdogan who is probably got the worst human rights record possible, a tyrant and trump says gee, i get along with this guy. explain that to me sometime. and i don't get along with the bad guys, and he asked me. he said as i say, explain it to me and i kind of thought well, that wouldn't really be hard

because he loves that sense of power. so as president he's in charge of foreign relations as we know and so he can -- the face of america is the face donald trump puts out. and he said we'll have good relations with putin or the crowned prince of saudi arabia, other oppressive regimes and he'll deal with kim jong-un, but he tells me south korea, he wants to get out. he wants to pull all of our troops out, and at one point, it's almost shocking. he said we have those troops there and we are allowing them, south korea to exist. the idea that we would -- that the president would think we're letting a country that is an ally with 32,000 of our troops

and he has got these inflated numbers that is costing all this money and it's not. >> i want to listen to another part of your conversation with president trump about kim jong-un and i want to warn viewers, the president uses some profanity. >> he didn't respect him. didn't like him. didn't respect him. thought he was a -- bush was too sp stupid. he had no clue. that's how we ended up in the middle east and spent $8 trillion. i said why do we have to lose? my family's expression with african americans. what do we have to lose? great statement. they said the best employment, the best this and that. okay. so the fake news says -- the first 24 hours people couldn't vote. cnn said holy s i can't believe it. he wants to meet with president trump. he wants to meet. this never happened. okay. the second -- you know, after a few days they said let's pull it back. it's making trump look too good.

this is no good. so now what they actually said i've given him so much. you know what i've given him? nothing. i met. i met kim. you know, i haven't taken sanctions off. >> he realizes how important it was to him. he keeps telling -- your excellence, this is going to go down in history. this is going to be -- >> would he have called obama or others. >> kim jong-un knows how to play trump. he calls him your excellence. kim, he's not calling the others that. that's -- it's fascinating to me that the president thought that that is what registered with the president. do you see what he called me? that's -- i mean, it's the easiest trick in the book. >> and look at the pictures. he's smiling. i've had one of my assistants

evelyn duffy and steve raleigh check the photos and there are lots of photos of kim jong-un smiling and so forth. again, trump has got this reality in his head and you -- the first interview i sat there in the oval office. i brought my tape recorder. in fact, because he would call at odd hours, i had to carry this olympus tape recorder around with me because once he called and i didn't have the tape recorder, so i had to have one by the side of the bed, one down stairs and so i took this -- this is december 5th, last year, plunked it down on the redesk in the oval office a said this is all on the record. this is the history. it's going to come out before the election. he had these pictures of kill

jud -- kim jong-un and orders appointing judges, which is very important and he had a stack of the letters between kim and -- >> he was trying to impress you? >> i don't know what he's doing. i mean, these are props. i've interviewed a number of presidents in the oval office and you sit at the other end and you do it without props. but trump had his props in this case. >> yeah, there's -- we're going to actually play that later. we'll take a quick break. why the president agreed to talk to bob woodward. we'll hear him explain on tape and my conversation with bob woodward continues. s means owning a lot of uncertainty. but unknowns bring opportunity, too. like the chance to find new ways of doing business. we can help you set up an online store, with pickup, delivery, or shipping.

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bob woodward has been chronicling american presidents. president trump declined to be interviewed for the first book back in 2018. that was the book "fear." before we play some more sound, you recount a fallingout between president trump and two of his top officials, secretary of defense mattis, dan coats after trump wanted to withdraw you from afghanistan and south korea. you read it and the bluntness smoked coats and a lie is a lie.

mattis went as far to say president trump is unfit:it's extraordinary. this is a top national security official. this is "mad dog" mattis the president kept praising on the campaign trail before he met him and spent time with him and threw him under the bus. >> he threw him under the bus because mattis did his job and as i quote mattis in the book say saying the pentagon got almost no guidance from president trume

it's okay. i have such respect. i spent hours with bush. all of the people. >> didn't he come out terribly. >> what he did in the third book was called state of denial because he got into denial. >> let me ask you. >> sure. >> he spent all that time with you. >> yes. >> and you made him look like a fool. >> no, no, no, my job is to find the best. >> you'll probably write a lousy book. i respect you as an author. >> i mean, i don't know if he's ever read any of your books, i would be surprised if he had. have you ever experienced that

with a president before that essentially, it's such an old trick. it's an old thing to try to do to an interviewer, i've been watching you work for years. you're doing great. your ratings are crazy and great. all that. >> no. and what's so interesting -- look, i knew what i was doing. i was trying to find out what happened and if you've looked through the book like on the north korean relationship, it was unorthodox. it was risky. but it's something that as trump kept beating into me we did not have a war and he's right. now we're at lands in history. obviously, we don't know. but i've -- i knew i couldn't say oh, yeah, don't worry the book is going to turn out great. i just went poker face and learned from reporting on the

cia for many, many years that the power of silence sometimes you just have to let the silence sec o suck out the truth. >> that is true, indeed. you know that better than anyone. jared kushner was asked about something he said to you, quote, the most dangerous people around the president are over confident it y idiots. you interpret as a reference to former secretary of defense mattis, rex tillerson, gary cohn. i want you to respond to that. >> he actually mischaracterizes who i was referring to. obviously, the people that we had, some people from the campaign who were in there who were obviously always trying to tell the president with confidence without the real facts. >> i just want to be clear because you just said, woodward says you were referring to general mattis, tillerson and

gary cohen and economic advisor, you're saying that's not what you meant. >> no, that wasn't clear. he's got tapes of everything. i have tapes of everything. that was never implied in that regard. >> i want you to respond. >> first of all, this is the whole trick and you have to give kushner an academy award for saying oh, well, i mischaracterized and hen then h goes on to say some people from the campaign who were in there suggesting that he was talking about campaign people as he says i have tapes, he has tapes. i could prove to you that he was talking about people who worked in the white house, who were in the administration, who were these over conkoco confident id mattis and tillerson left.

president trump when i asked about mattis said oh, he's just a p.r. guy. he public recalled tillerson who was his secretary of state dumb as a rock. he -- anyway. >> general kelly. kelly wasn't up to the job over his head that sort of stuff. it does strike me with this president. everybody is a sucker or a loser or what are some of his other -- everybody is an idiot. they are a sucker and loser. it is his view, his go-to view of other people, of all the people around him unless you praise him and especially if you're a dictator and it's fine until suddenly he senses that you've turned against him and all of a sudden, you're an idiot, too. >> no, you don't have to turn against him. i mean, people like coats and tillerson and mattis were doing -- >> true. >> -- their job as i show in the book. i mean, think of these meetings

that they have to have national event conferences, which are very super secret and mattis was in charge of the defense department, trump authorized mattis and trump confirmed this to me to shoot down an incoming missile from north korea on his own authority. and mattis took this seriously because he realized the nuclear arsenal that north korea had was stunning. it was hidden. it was probably a couple of dozen nuclear weapons. so mattis is in his quarters and he has a light that will flash in case he's in the shower and there is a national event conference called and he has to

get on the secure line and watch the missile coming out of north korea and in some cases, it landed in the never came to the united states. but -- >> what a responsibility? >> yeah. i want to play some new sound and it's about the president's leadership and how he sees this moment in history. you ask president trump about if, listen. >> was there a moment in all of this, the last two months where you said to yourself, you know, you're waking up or you're -- whatever you're doing, you say, this is the leadership test of a lifetime? >> no. >> no? >> i think it might be, but i don't think -- there are many people that said that to me, they said, you're a wartime

president. >> who said that first to you? >> oh, many people have said that. >> well, help me, i'd like to make it concrete. >> i don't like to sit back and think about that kin of thing. >> why? >> i don't have that much time to think about it. >> it's like when he was asked what his favorite bible passage is the idea that there's a lot of people telling him he's a wartime president. he's the one who said he's a wartime president. >> he did say that publicly. >> yes, he did. >> exactly. >> that's the people, it's like when he says people are talking, he says he's as busy as hell. last week he said he watched fox's morning show and all of their prime time programs, binge watching fox. compared to other presidents. all the presidents you have interviewed or reported on, the word liar is not a word

reporters generally use to describe a president. but in this administration it's become. >> i don't use that word. >> i know, i hadn't until this administration, because it is -- there's no way the president does not understand what he's saying is not factually correct. there's both intent and not just incorrect information, but it seems to be repeated intent to mislead. >> look, i'm not a psychiatrist, i'm not -- i can't put my finger on his motivation. where he says -- i don't understand him, i think that's a fair point. what i'm trying to do is describe his actions and his motives and the result of his actions.

and he -- a couple friends of mine have said, you know, they've read the book and they say, these are psychiatric hours, they are not psychiatric hours. that is not my business. my business is to find out what happened and what he is willing to say about it, and what astounded me is, he would let me push on the impeachment issue. i went down to mar-a-lago and essentially for 20 minutes did the impeachment interrogation of him that the senate and the house was never able to do. and we were shouting at each other, another time he called the house and my wife elsa said, you know, you're shouting at the president, and she said you shouldn't be shouting at the president. i said, well, i've got questions to ask.

what was important for me is that he would let me do that. >> yeah. stay with us, as you mentioned, bob woodward's book ends with something he's never done before. when the world gets complicated, a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealth management, your dedicated adviser can give you straightforward advice and tailored recommendations. that's the clarity you get with fidelity wealth management.

famously in all his books on u.s. presidents, bob woodward never delivers an overt opinion. he lets readers form their own conclusions, as he said to me earlier in the program, not this time in his book. the very last lines of your book are, when his performance as president are taken into entirety, i can only reach one conclusion, trump is the wrong man for the job. what made you do that? >> a conclusion based on overwhelming evidence. i looked -- i was typing along and the epilogue and out it came, and i realized and consulted people that that was

actually obligation. i got as close as an outsider might get to the inner trump and what how the white house works and functions, and i -- can i tell a quick story? a story about katherine graham who was the owner and publisher of the washington post. >> i would love to hear it, we have two minutes. >> okay, i'm going to do it quick. after nixon resigned, so this is 1974, she wrote carl bernstein and myself a letter on yellow legal pad, and she had more stationary than any 500 people in washington but she got, dear carl and bob, you wrote some of the stories in nixon is gone, do not start thinking -- do not think too highly of yourselves. i want to give you some advice.

beware the demon pomposity. >> that's good advice. >> that's really important for us in our business. i pondered that, i consulted with elsa, john carp, the publisher and the top person at simon and schuster with my assistants and said, is this pompous or is this true? and the answer was, in everyone, it's true. you can't -- the whole business of trump is about running away from the truth. you cannot run away from the truth here because you've seen it. >> i was stunned by the quote that kushner gave to you, if you want to understand the president, you should look at

the cheshire cat analysis in wonderland, if you don't know where you're going, any path will get you there. the fact that one of the president's closest advisers is intimating he doesn't know where he's going and is willing to take any path to get there is scary. >> it's only one of the scary truths in this book. it's -- it was very -- and it's been very unsettling to me to travel this road and stare down what i heard and saw and verified and went back and my wife elsa who edited this book six times and is my counselor and would come to me and say this is a good section, but you're not say iing what you