the most is her fierce determination. we had the great joy and honor to be in the room with her and her personal trainer, filming her doing a the fierceness that she plunged into doing planks and push-ups and lifted weights, you know, it was amazing to see. but it was also a metaphor for a lot of her life. every challenge that came her way, she was ready to fight back. she was ready to put her all into that. and despite the fact she was a serious person, she had a lot of joy and a lot of humor and a lot of sparkle. >> and she said, she talked about it. she said, it was beyond her wild dreams that she would one day be known as the notorious rbg. how did she feel about it? >> you know, you might think that someone whose whole life is the seriousness of

constitutional law, wouldn't love being -- having that moniker. but actually, even when that came to her in her 80s, she seemed to enjoy it. we were present a number of times when it was in front of a young audience, kind of telling the joke that her and the notorious b.i.g. had quite a bit in common because they were born and bred in brooklyn. and the crowd would laugh. and she would eat it up. she enjoyed the fact that young people were seeing her as a pop star. >> i have to say, in this moment, i don't want to let anyone down. this is important, especially for women. i'm being told by my good friend, katie couric, irin, that i'm pronouncing your name wrong. emphasis on rin. >> i want to tell the story

about a workout for a second. >> go on, please. >> i love that tell this story. when i interviewed her in 2015, i asked her if it was true, before we had video evidence of this, if she could do 20 push-ups. and she was so precise. she was the most factual unerrorly. we do ten push-ups, i take a breath, and i do ten more. that defined her so much. occasionally, she needed to take a breath to have good friends, to go to the of apera, to enjoy life. but she was there to get the ten push-ups that got her to 20. it was the perseverance for the number of people that looked up to her. >> i thank you for coming on this evening and paying tribute

to her. and i thank you for all of your words and for doing this film. we really appreciate it. i'm sorry i mispronounced your name and i'm grateful to katie for correcting me. i'm sorry for your loss. >> thanks, don. >> tune in tomorrow night for the cnn films documentary, "r "rbg." this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. it's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. the historic breaking news. the death of ruth bader ginsburg. she passed away, surrounded by family after a long battle with cancer. justice ginsburg was 87 years old. she was nominated to the high court in 1993 by bill clinton. renowned for her brilliant mind at the supreme court, justice ginsberg demonstrated that one could disagree without being disagreeable toward one's

leagues. her well-known positions, recording the equity of women and the disabled, have inspired all americans and generations of great legal minds. chief justice john roberts saying, the nation has lost a inju jurist of enormous stature. ginsberg dictated this statement to her granddaughter, with the bluntness she was known for and i quote here. my most fervent wish is that i won't be replaced until a new president is installed. cnn's senior congressional correspondent, manu raju brings us the latest. good evening to you. we have to talk about the politics. mitch mccoll m making it clear, that the republican majority will try to replace ginsberg this year. does he have the votes to do this? >> that's the big question we will be looking at for the next few months here. whether or not he can prevent

more than three republican senators from breaking ranks. that majority is at 53-47. if he loses more than three, that nominee will not be confirmed. there's several senators who are resisting about moving forward. some changed their views over the last weeks and months. what appears to be the case, talking to republicans tonight and just looking at the past confirmation proceedings, typically, they take two to three months to happen. that means that there probably is not enough time to push through a nomination before the election. but there's a chance to get someone confirmed in a postelecti postelection, lame duck session of congress, between november and january. no matter what happens in november, the republicans will be in charge in the senate, from november to january. and president trump will be president until a new president -- or he has to go

through the second inauguration in the end of january. it's unclear if they move ahead in the lame duck session. mccoll m wants to move ahead. a number of republicans want to move ahead before the election because of the concerns that they have there could be election year disputes in the courts and it could wind up in the supreme court, rather than avoid a 4-4 deadlock and having a ninth justice to break a tie. that was the case in 2016, when it was a 4-4 supreme court and mitch mcconnell held open the seat that president obama put forward. mitch mcconnell making clear he's moving forward this year, don. >> it's too much.

unbelievable, this happening. and we break the news to the world, that justice ginsburg has passed away. a lot of republicans in tough re-election campaigns. how does this factor in? >> it's going to be a big question. a number of the republicans need conservative voters to get behind them, and to see them breaking ranks and angering their conservative base on such a significant issue. which is make up of the supreme court would seem to be unlikely in some of these cases. i think you could expect some of, a lot of the republican senators in tough races to side with the president to side with mitch mcconnell and to push forward and to confirm a nominee. now, one republican senator who is up for re-election in a difficult of race, susan collins of maine, said it's unlikely she does not want to confirm a nominee in november. if biden wins, she will be opposed to naming a nominee in a lame duck session.

it's unclear there's enough republicans siding with her that would prevent the president and mitch mcconnell from moving ahead and getting somebody confirmed to the bench. expect it to be the discussion and the intense focus on capitol hill over the next few months. >> as i'm speaking, i'm looking through my quotes from lindsey graham and mcconnell and others. chuck grassley, and so forth, this is 2016 that i want you to respond to. senator lindsey graham went out of his way to insist that if this day ever came, manu, that he would be consistent and not support a supreme court nominee in an election year. we will play it and then i will get your response. >> i want you to use my words against me. if there's a republican president in 2016, and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say, lindsey graham said, let's let the next

president, whoever it might be, make that nomination and you could use any words against me and you would be absolutely right. we are setting a precedent here today. republicans are, that in the last year, at least of a lame duck eight-year term, i would say it's going to be a four-year term, that you are not going to fill a vacancy of the supreme court based on what we are doing here today. that's going to be the new rule. >> okay. so, listen. over the last year, manu, there's been a lot of hypocrisy, gone unchecked, senator graham is in a tough re-election fight of his life right now. you think he is going to keep his word? >> he is actually changed his tune since then. i have spoken to him a few times about this very topic in recent months. including in late july, when i asked him, would you move forward with a supreme court nominee if a vacancy were to

arise. and he is the senate judiciary chairman, he said we will see what the market will bear. we will see if there's enough support to move forward -- >> manu, manu, listen -- >> he would like to confirm one. he still wants to confirm a nominee despite the comments from 2016. >> that is 2016, and i think i have one in 2018. correct me if i'm wrong. if an opening comes in the last year of a president's term and the primary process has started, we will wait until the next presidency. he said is it in 2016 and 2018. and recently he has changed his mind? >> yes, absolutely. he has made it clear that he is open to move. if they want to confirm someone, he said, the quote market will bear, in other words, we will see if there's support to move forward. if president trump is pushing for a nomination to be confirmed, linsey graham is in a difficult race, he will be on

the same page. >> well, that answers the question, doesn't it? thank you very much. let's go to cnn's jim acosta, our chief white house correspondent. standing by. jim, hello to you. i want to talk to you about the ---er. >> okay, thanks. >> jim, can you hear me? we don't have jim acosta. if not, we will go to jessica snyder. until jim gets ready, jessica snyder is outside the supreme court. appreciate you joining us. earlier when we joined you, when we saw you before, there were folks standing outside of the

supreme court. they had gathered after the news of justice ginsburg. what is the scene like now? >> still a massive crowd, about three hours after we heard of the passing of justice ginsburg, the crowd out here remains strong. we had a flare up of tension when the hecklers came through shouting things. but it's peaceful now and quiet and spontaneous applause erupting from time to time. everyone out here honoring the life of justice ginsburg. she served 27 years. justice john roberts when he released the statement, when the court announced justice ginsburg's passing. he called her a tireless and resolute champion of justice. she personified tireless, don. it was just last night that the national constitution center actually honored justice ginsburg with the liberty medal.

she did not attend the big event. there was a video made, where kate mckinnon, a cast member on saturday night live, who portrays the notorious rbg as she has been known in popular culture. but justice ginsburg wrote a letter for that ceremony and she gave her thanks. she directed where the $100,000 would go that she was getting for the award. she worked up until the end, don, she worked up until the end battling cancer. and really all the people up here tonight are honoring her, they are silent and peaceful right now and they just had kind words to say about her. >> jessica snyder, thank you so much, reporting from outside the supreme court. let's tri-c nn jim a costa, again. there you are. jim, you can hear me now. >> hey, don, i can, you are right. >> i understand the president

made a statement, i read it moments ago. [ inaudible ] >> that is right, that is what we are hearing from our sources. both inside the white houses and advising the campaign. i talked to a couple of campaign advisers earlier this evening and one of them said, president trump is going to follow the constitution, period. and you know, that tells you exactly what you need to know rate now, and that is he intends to fill this vacancy on the supreme court. i can did talk to a source close to the president. somebody who speaks to the president frequently earlier this evening and the source said that, you know, the president has been quote salivating. the word used by the source to replace ruth bader ginsburg if the seat becomes open on the

supreme court. the source going on to say, the president is keenley interested in the appellate court judge, amy cohen barrett. she is beloved inside the conservative movement. that would be a home run if she gets on the high court. you will see the president's allies up on capitol hill that are like minded conservatives that are pushing that kind of supreme court pick. as we discussed throughout the evening. there's such a thing of a reality of election year politics and we are now in the nitty gritty of the campaign, and the question becomes, can we push through a highly charged pick like that when you have moderate republicans who are fighting for re-election. people like susan collins and so on, that all changes the calculus of this in real time. talking to people who advice the president's campaign inside the white house, he has every intent of moving very quickly and putting somebody on the supreme court. he told hugh hewitt, the

broadcaster, absolutely i would put somebody on the supreme court if a vacancy were to happen. and he went to say, the democrats would do it. perhaps not fully remembering the history of merrick garland when back in 2016 the democrats were in the opposite situation. president obama had put up merrick garland and the republicans blocked it in the senate. you will see and hear video clips of lyndsay graham and other senators saying, we will abide by the merrick garland rule if it happens again. and that will go out the window, they see a golden opportunity.

to tilt the high court in a far right direction are for a generation to come. and i think that is why you are going to see this become, i think, be vaulted in to the top two or three issues of this campaign along with the coronavirus, and the economy. don? >> um, jim, so let's talk about the process here. we have some reporting that this will be held by all of this will be led had, i should say, by white house council with heavy involvement from the chief of staff. what do you know about that? >> yeah, that has been in the work for some time. it's not as though they will show up at the office on monday with a blank white board in an office and say, now, what do we do next? they have been gaming it out for some time. the president in the last couple of weeks put out his dream team of possible picks for the supreme court, throwing out names like ted cruz, tom cotton, and so on. and so, yes, of course, the white house council, lawyers inside the administration, also allies of the white house, you know, in the conservative movement around washington. they have been feeding names to the white house, one has to think that there's been some

initial vetting that has occurred for some of these picks and keep in mind, amy coney barrett who i mentioned before, she was mentioned as a, on a short list the last time around when brett cavanaugh was picked 54 the supreme court. one has to think, if they have to move quickly, don, they will go back to the short list along with other names, you know, to, you know, give if likes of josh holly and tom cotton and ted cruz, you know, sort of a, like, you know, a nod, a wink and a nod like yes, we thought of you but we are going to go back to some of the names like amy coney barrett and so that the conservative movement would like to see. and don, as you know, this is a god send for president trump. this is a stroke of luck for president trump that he has had before. that -- it's going to energize and animate that conservative religious conservative base that he needs to turn out in november. >> um, jim, you know, i was speaking to a conservative friend as i was coming in to

work and the news had broke, and they said, elections have consequences. this is what people talk about, the consequences of an election for those who are apathetic of going to vote. for those that may have even voted for a third party candidate. he said to me, you get what you deserve. and you get who you vote for, or who you don't vote for, depending in this situation. so, this is a prime example of the importance of voting. this is what the presidential process, voting in a president ally election, this is really the big outcome. if he gets to decide. he or she gets to decide who is on the supreme court. >> absolutely.

don. >> that is absolutely right. and i think, you know, you have to hand it to conservative the -- the conservatives have understood this better than the liberals have. and they have voted like the supreme court is at stake. in every election. both at the federal and state level. when it comes to judicial nominees, they have been thinking about how to deal with the courts. and how to pack the courts. i mean, this has been a mission of mitch mcconnell for some time now. and he is faced with perhaps the holy grail of all holy grails from a supreme court standpoint, and that is to permanently lock in a conservative majority for a generation. potentially that is what is at stake now, obviously, you know, this is a night to remember, ruth bader ginsburg, for all of us who have little girls out there, ruth bader ginsburg is who you want your daughter to grow up to be like some day. and we will all remember her as being a pioneer and a champion

for women. you can't other look what we are facing in the coming weeks. president trump is going to, make no mistake, exploit this as much as he can both politically and you know, for the sake of being able to pack the court and tilt the court in his direction in the republican party's direction for years to come. >> jim acosta, thank you very much. with me once again now, cnn's chief legal analyst jeffrey tubin and laura coates. good to see you both again. jeffrey, this is what mitch mcconnell said, this was in may. >> we fill it. >> i could not hear. sorry, what did he say? i'll fill it. okay. so he, has already said that, the trump nominee will get a full vote on the senate floor. what are your thoughts? >> well, if it succeeds, it will be the greatest act of political hypocrisy in the nation's

history. the fact that they jammed through a nominee with less than two hours to go. shows that the words of senators mean nothing. all they care about is temporary political advantage. mitch mcconnell has 53 votes. he is a master of the senate. i have learned in covering the senate. you don't make much money voting against mitch mcconnell. but his power is not absolute here. and the egregiousness of his hypocrisy, may force some senators to revisit their support for what he did four years ago. and this is going to be a big issue in the senate campaigns as well as in the presidential campaigns. and good luck to these senators

explain why they stopped merrick garland and want to jam through a trump nominee. >> listen, jeffrey, not to be contrary. >> please. >> i sit here every week night and beyond and talk about the things and you do as well. did we really need this to point out the hypocrisy that has come out of the senate in the past four years? >> you make a fair point there. this is an unusually specific example of hypocrisy with unusually high stakes. i think everyone knows the difference between february and september. and they know the stakes of a supreme court nomination. and they know, you know, that this is not some abstraction, it's about whether or not abortion will be legal in much of the country.

whether affirmative action will be legal had. whether campaign finance is regulated at all in the united states. or is completely deregulated. the stakes here are very clear. and elections have consequences as your friend pointed out. and we will see how the voters react to this. you know, i'm out of the prediction business after 2016. but -- >> everyone sitting here on this show is out of the prediction business right now. >> well, we should be. >> you have been standing by patiently, laura, thank you very much. everyone remembers the battle over merrick garland. now comes this. what do you see ahead? >> turbulence, the crafts are going to come down out of the sky.

>> we could use masks. >> we could and we could use masks in more than one capacity. wear your masks, people. what is ironic about all of this, somebody who was a good predictor, somebody who was quite -- was ruth bader ginsburg, she foresaw a great deal in her dissents she included calls to action in her dissents. she is one of the dissenters for the supreme court case that dismantled the voting rights act. she was keenly aware of how important elections were and why it was important to not disenfranchise anyone. over the summer, she had a case involving iowa, you are putting every american in the situation of either choosing their health or exercising their democratic right to vote in the country. so she was well aware of the

power and she'd often look to congress to correct the things that were a problem in the supreme court cases. and now, we have the buck returning to congresses and now we are seeing that congress in the end. the very chamber that she has looked to do say, i would like you to correct as a matter of checks and balances in democracy, could actually undo a lot of the precedent that she had up to now. it's startling and i have to say, one of the reasons, don, that she has become iconic. particularly among younger women in the country. they saw her as a vehicle and a representative of what was promised when we talk about equality. what was promised about this nation having justice be blind, what was promised about all the aspects. and they saw it dwindling away. if we talk about the hypocrisy coming up, you have to say, ruth bader ginsburg predicted this. it's time for the other branches

of government to perform the checks and balances. and if they don't, it will not be a republic anymore. >> don, if i can add one point about one important moment where ruth bader ginsburg was not prescient, people asked her, when barack obama was president and she was in her 80s, why don't you retire and let obama, a democrat, pick your successor, she said, we don't have to worry about that, hillary clinton will be president next. >> so, you are doing as we call, kitchen table talk. and that's what i have heard -- some say, i don't understand why she did not retire then and let someone else. that is neither here nor there,

here we are in this moment. laura, quickly, if i can ask you, you are not just a legal analyst in the network. you an american and a woman that participates in the democracy. what does it do for women in the election if you can offer your analysis on that? does it galvanize women? i know you, you have children, you live in the suburbs. what do you think, what do you see coming here? >> well, it should light a fire that should have already been burning for every person, democracy is not a spectator sport. if you actually are concerned, not only about who will be in the oval office, but who will surround capitol hill, who will sit in the judiciary building not just in washington, d.c., but down to your individual states.

you have to be concerned about the administrations you choose. i hope that everyone watching, what they are seeing right now, understand the importance of the trickle down theory of administering as a part of the executive branch of government. it's not just one person that controls. that's a monarchy, it's everyone that surrounds and gets a lifetime appointment. at the federal level. i look at this as an opportunity for people to galvanize around becoming more informed about who they vote for, who do you want to make the decisions that will have an impact on your life, about your body, about your children's education, your children's bodies, your children's futures and everyone in the nation. that's the question that you are asking, not just who will be in the oval office, who will wear the robe. who will hit the gavel, who do all of those things? had that includes the state and local as well. it's an election like no other. every time you have the opportunity to speak and exercise your vote. you should take the reigns with both hands and with a fist and

if you don't do it, you will find yourself always in the dissenting position and not having the platform that justice ginsburg once had. >> and you cannot complain if you did not participate in the process. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you, jeffrey, as well. i appreciate it. >> dana bash is our chief political correspondent. justice ginsburg has been -- how do you see it playing out? it's going to be an ugly fight. let's be honest. >> absolutely. it already is, let's be honest. we are appropriately mourning and talking about the unbelievable life, and all the milestones all of the, not just ceilings, glass ceilings that she went through with her, by herself, but she carved out places in the glass ceiling with her legal mind for women across the board in this country.

but, the reality is, that we are fewer than 50 days before an election. with now, eight supreme court justices, and a vacancy and the fact that this is such a polarized time. and there's so much baggage with the notion of what to do with a vacancy in the -- close to the election baggage because of mitch mcconnell's own actions four years ago in saying no, no, no, we are not giving a hearing to your nominee, all of that is playing in, in a really, really remarkable way. and we should also say, that you know, she doesn't get a vote, but the fact that that she said to they are granddaughter, that she wanted a statement out there, that she does not want

this president to be the one to replace her. you know, that's got to weigh on some of the senators who are really in a political pickle of how to approach it in the short-term. >> dana, i think it's important. i want to get it in to you. the number two, senator john thune, gop senator backing mcconnell. he said i believe americas sent a republican president and senate to washington -- we will fulfill our obligation to them. as leader mcconnell said,president trump's supreme court nominee will receive a vet on the floor of the u.s. senate. now i want you to compare that to what john thune said in 2016. okay, everyone listening. the american people deserve to have their votes heard on the nomination of the next supreme court justice who could

fundamentally change the direction of the supreme court for a generation. the next president should make the lifetime appointment to the supreme court. um, that is, that is, that is a definition of hypocrisy, extreme. >> we are going to see it over and over again when we see and hear republicans, including you played for manu the sound bites from lindsey graham, talking not just in 2016, but also in 2018. about the fact that he will not -- he said, you can use my words against me. there will not be somebody who will be approved in the last year of a term of the president. and you can bet as manu said, and i agree with him. now that he is judiciary chairman and he is in a very, very tight race in ruby red south carolina, if he does anything to make his base mad, which is the trump base, he is probably toast politically.

so, it's almost impossible to think that he will not go back on his words he dared everyone to use against him. >> he has said, manu said that he said, when he asked him again, this year. he said, i wants to see what the market bears. so that means -- yes, and he is in a tight re-election. and it's very conservative state, go on. >> the other argument that we are starting to hear from republicans who obviously want this vacancy to be filled sooner rather than later because they don't know what's going to happen in the election. is well, wait a minute, if there are only eight justices on the supreme court. then what happens if the president election is contested, ala 2000. what do you do you with an evenly divided court? >> come on, dana.

>> i'm not making it up. ted cruz is saying it. it's going to happen more and more. there's going to be arguments that they are going to pull out of you know where, and they are going to make it over and over again. but they have a lot of back-up from a base who understands that this is, they believe, rightly so, since whatever happens is a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land that this is a long-term strategy not just, which is from their perspective more important than just taking the hit on short-term hypocrisy, this is all the marbles right here. this is it. thank you. >> we saw the courage in justice ginsburg fighting cancer. she knew the stakes interest and stayed on the court. i want to bring in dr. jonathan

rhiner. doctor, good evening to you. she died of complications from pancreatic cancer. she had a long history with cancer, starting wi inin ining cancer in 1999. it's tough. it's a tough battle for everyone. never mind someone of her age. >> yeah, she had colon cancer and then was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. it's a lethal disease, because it's usually diagnosed very late. amazingly she lived for 11 years after that. no one lives for 11 years after a pancreatic cancer diagnosis. but justice ginsburg did. my father used to say, it's one

thing to have a disease, it's another thing to let the disease have you. and her really miriad illnesses over her career on the court never had her. there were obstacles to get around and get things done. she is an inspiration, my two girls, my two jewish girls look to her. especially my daughter who is a law student now. it's a big loss. but she personified resilience. resilience in the face of illness. resilience is a really classic american attribute, so, tonight we celebrate her life, i think celebration of her life is a better sentiment now than mourning her loss. >> you know, over if summer, she had a recurrent, and tried immuno-therapy and that was unsuccessful, doctor.

>> yeah, immuno-therapy is the hope for the future, it's giving more time to people with advanced cancers in situations where just a few years ago there was nothing to do. but, in every illness, there's a point of no return. and justice ginsburg got there this year. we are really good sometimes in medicine with trying to pro long life. we are not so good sometimes with preparing people for death. and you know, the further i have gotten in to my career, the more i have struggled with end of

life situations with patients. there's a time to let go and every person gets there. and the true doctors know how to manage that. and i think, it's apparent that the justice received fabulous care and she lived out the full measure of her years. >> dr. rhiner, thank you. >> my pleasure. >> we will be back -- we will be back, excuse me, with more of our breaking news, the death of justice ruth bader ginsburg.

justice ginsburg's passing sets up a historic fight over whether to fill the vacancy just 46 days before the election. let's discuss the stakes with our senior political commentator and mark mckinnon. thank you for being here and sorry we have to meet under these circumstances this evening. the nominee will receive a vote on the senator floor says mitch mcconnell. do you see a scenario where four republicans refuse to vote? >> well, rest in peace, justice ginsburg, you deserve it, and you showed what a difference can be made.

literally before coming on your show tonight. i was going to talk about how this race structurally had not changed really in over a year. and there was little that could happen that would change the equation. that was what i was thinking four hours ago and now the equation has changed. had this is going to be, you know, and by the way, this, you know, donald trump did not want to be talking about covid, we are not talking about covid anymore, we are going talk about supreme court maybe from now to election day. so the key question is, that you are asking is, are there three or are there four votes of republican defections, first, can they get it done before the election. i don't think that they want to. the heat will be intense in any case. if it's thrown in to lame duck, which is, i think, the more likely scenario.

lisa markowski said she will not vote. the election in arizona is special. if mcsally loses that race, then, the democratic senator automatically gets sworn in, so, that will be a loss of a republican vote right there. so, that's two for sure. and then, you have people like romney, grassley, who has indicated that he has a issue or problem. you see how it's easy to get to the three or four in the lame duck session. >> collins, possibly? >> for sure. >> jennifer, so, let's -- what are the options for this? do the democrats have any options? >> yeah, sure they do. you are seeing a lot of talk about that tonight. if the republicans -- if mitch mcconnell decides to jam something through in a lame duck session when he has lost the senate and when joe biden has won the presidency.

there's no doubt in my mind that there will be serious consideration given to expanding the court and in fact, i think chuck schumer should just say right now -- >> right. >> if he agrees, if you jam this through, then when we take power next year, there will be additional justices added. there's nothing -- >> that's a very smart play. jennifer, that's a really smart play. >> and there's nothing -- yeah, i mean, there's nothing in the constitution, people think it's a constitutional number, 9, it's not. it's been changed seven times in the history of the united states. so, i think that there's a real risk of blowing this whole thing up if mcconnell ends up shoving this through. >> so, having said that, mark,

strategy. do you think there's an appetite out there to expand the number of justices? >> i don't think out there, don. i mean, i think it's a very process sort of driven notion that most people don't, you know, they don't understand how it works they understand hypocrisy, and they understand a naked play for power as this will be seen as. i just think it's a very interesting sort of, if republicans really care about the court and they do. and they have done a good job of getting republican voters to the polls. they have done it for years and years and years, and democrats have a lot to do to catch up. if they care about the court and the complexion of the court, if the threat is four more justices who could be democrats, that's a very interesting, that becomes a very interesting shift in the narrative. >> my question is, and i'm not, i guess both of you would know

this. biden is an institutionalist traditional. >> would he go for something like this? >> can i just say that you know, democrats have put up a huge amount of structural change that the republicans, have manipulated process in order to get the outcomes if they want. whether it's people at the ballot boxes shutting down polling sites. gerrymandering, etcetera. the merrick garland insults, holding the seat open for a year and now saying we have to jam this through. and mark is right, it's too soon before an election. even if they tried to do that. they have already got a 5-3 conservative majority on the court. so they don't need another conservative to make decisions about the election. but honestly, because of the process manipulation that republicans have taken on, i

wonder whether joe biden would consider looking at something like expanding the court or putting term limit wills on the supreme court justices, or looking at the filibuster again, because they have, because they have beaten democrats at this game. using process to achieve outcomes. >> thank you both, i appreciate it. >> thank you, don. >> we often turn to douglas brinkley for context, but tonight we are seeing history play out in real time right now, senior political analyst john avlon with perspective. good evening to you, douglas, what is, listen, this is, she already made history, and now, her had death may impact the course of history. correct? >> well, absolutely. and i realize, you know, this is the jewish holiday right now, rashashan, and we need to reflect on her life and legacy.

and the politics are like niagra falls right now. i would caution the idea of joe biden going out and saying if i don't get what i want, i will expand the supreme court. fdr did that after he won in 1936 and did not like what the court was doing and he went and tried to sell it to have 15 justices on the supreme court and it was not republicans were saying that it was not constitutional. . biden would be starting his presidency in an awful position if he tried this. i think we have to see what the reality is. donald trump very well in the next days may pick who he thinks

is, should be the justice and you are going to have mitch mcconnell start trying to sell it on capitol hill. don't put anything behind mitch mcconnell right now. this is what he is living for. this is his retirement plan to get a conservative justice in. and the difference of ten or, john, and don, of our time, you know, when ginsburg got confirmed in 1993, it was 96-3 in confirmation of her. even though she had a liberal record. look at where we are now in the neocivil war that is playing out with the supreme court? >> john, i have heard you talk about this on television, and you know john and i talk about it when we are not on tv, that is because, that is his jam. but, you, the last time i saw you, which was last weekend, you were talking about

in a message, senate majority leader, mitch mcconnell urged his colleagues not to lock them into a position they may regret later and to counsel them, to be cautious about what they are telling the media and their views, about how to process the nomination, according to a person that saw the note. he urges them to keep the powder dry. that's a quote. mcconnell doesn't indicate a time frame for considering the nomination. but makes clear he believes there's enough time to take up the nominee this year. both of you, john first. >> look. what mcconnell is saying, there will be room to twist your arm later. judges have been the rationalization that conservatives have used to make donald trump more palatable when they have taken out the values they espoused for decades. and 2020, the tragic death of

justice ginsberg. we should remember her history, her record, her legacy, and her friendship with antonin scalia. and that's one of the things that is in danger of being lost if this goes nuclear, as i think it's likely to do. he's trying to say, some of you have spoken out before, including lisa murkowski earlier today. he doesn't want anyone to commit to principle. >> he says that -- douglas, i want you to weigh in. i have a list here, including john thune, one thing in 2016 and saying the opposite now, including lindsey graham and lisa murkowski and so on. he says, keep your powder dry and don't lock yourself in. is it too late for them to regret those positions? and will it matter if they've taken the position? >> i don't think it matters anymore in our culture right now. not when things are going to quickly.

i think mitch mcconnell is telling republicans through the media, stay quiet now. let me count the votes. let's stay unified as a republican party, so people aren't going on twitter, saying different things and creating problems for themselves. somebody saying something different a few years ago or months ago, it doesn't matter. this is a crisis situation here. this is donald trump's great wish in a very strange and grim way because he had to get covid off of the main story. and the more we're talking about trump's woman he's going to appoint to the supreme court, the better donald trump thinks he can bring out his base. and i'm going to have to find a way to make it work. he may have -- joe biden, here's my list of who i would pick to the supreme court. >> he has to figure out a way to cut through the noise. gentlemen, thank you both. i appreciate it. more on our breaking news after this.

the death of ruth bader ginsburg. >> even though they had differing points of view, they were dear friends. they were picking on each other the whole time but they would enjoy it. >> justice scalia would whisper something to me. all i could do to avoid laughing out loud is pinch myself. and people would ask, what is your favorite scalia joke. i know what it is but i can't tell you. >> they enjoyed discussing operas and, of course, they appeared together at an opera. >> that was a scene from the cnn films documentary, "rbg." tune in tomorrow night, 10:00 eastern. cnn films documentary, "rbg." that was a clip with antonin scalia, her good friend. we'll be right back.

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this is cnn breaking news. well, she was small in stature but will be forever remembered as a giant in history. this morning, the country mourns the death of supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg. it's saturday, september 19th, good morning to you. i'm victor blackwell. >> and i'm christi paul. justice ginsburg died from complications from pancreatic cancer. she was 87. today, the flags are