>> back to wolf. >> people were watching this debate around the world. 200 countries and territories. clearly this debate was an enbae embarrassment for the united states of america. in the big picture, how much was fact and how much was false? >> it depended who we were listening two. president trump, there were times where almost every single thing he said during the concluding section of the debate was inaccurate. and these were largely false claims the president has made before. these weren't one-time slips,

they have been fact checked and are still long. >> what about the claim about former vice president's health care plan. >> the bigger problem is that you are going to extinguish 180 million people with the health care. >> that's not true. >> you are going to socialist. >> break that down. >> that was not true. the democratic primary where bernie sanders proposed a medicare for all, single payer plan which would have eliminated about 180 million people. biden rejected that. he selected the public option which allows them to if they want enter into a medicare type program. bottom line, this is inaccurate.

>> president trump's claim about manufacturing jobs created on his watch. >> they said it would take a miracle to bring back manufacturing. i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothing. gave up on manufacturing. >> we did not. >> how do you rate that claim? >> everything is inaccurate. from the beginning of trump's presidency it's a net loss of 237,000. we have lost manufacturing jobs. if you want to be generous and go to the prepandemic, it's a gain of 343,000 which would be pretty good. but the president was adding more. there were jobs lost under obama but he inherited a recession in which a steep decline was

underway. that turned around. then there was a slow but steady increase in manufacturing jobs until trump took office. >> you will be back every ten minutes doing fact checking. and we are waiting for the first results of our instant poll to get reactions from people watching the debate. anderson? >> thanks. we are going to get a reaction from people who were watching the debate, undecided voters. >> they are happy, feel they are begin the green light. i don't know what the president meant when he said stand by -- >> just that he would get back to it. >> you might want to let it fall in his face on that one.

>> my heart breaks when you were saying why should we be surprised. i don't want it to become something people are not surprised by. i have a friend whose son was watching this on the west coast and said, mom, should we buy a gun to protect ourselves? >> there are young people across the country, this is the only america they know. they are growing up in a country where they can't go to school because somebody has mishandled this virus so badly and this person says something so terrifying they ask their mom should we buy a gun. the country deserves better than that. i am as bipartisan as you can get. we are beyond politics. we are in a swamp of misbehavior

we wouldn't tolerate from our children in a class. this is not a normal night. >> the problem is it is not a normal night. it is normal for this president. that is the point. this was trump's greatest hit. the conspiracy theory, the devisiveness, the inhumanity. it was all there. this is who he is. that's who came and what people saw. it will probably thrill some of his supporters, but it will, i predict, have turned off a lot of other people. as i said earlier, he put a sorry end to a sorry saga with his performance. >> i think it's such a low moment in american presidential history that you see an

incumbent precedent incumbent president of the united states bullying his opponent in a shameful way and declining to say how he felt about white supremacy. give me a break. and then declining -- he was asked specifically would you tell your supporters not to be violent after this election, and he declined to do that. when i say frightening and i don't know whether this is what your friend is referring to, but when you say frightening, that's what i think americans are looking at and saying wait a minute, this is not the way democracy is supposed to be. i don't see support donald trump, don't support him, whatever, but i don't see how you defend that behavior i guess we have come to expect, david, but to me it was a crescendo

tonight. >> the democrats owe a lot to chris wallace. it was chris wallace who asked those questions, not joe biden. he asked for a reason. he asked the president to do something he doesn't like to do. >> which is? >> say something bad about people who don't support him. >> the white supremacist. >> and, two, he knows the president doesn't think this election is fair. the president believes the absentee voting, which happens in pennsylvania. but these states who mail ballots without r he thinks it's unfair and

rampant from fraud. he knows the president is not going to -- >> that's different than violence. >> the president made those two gaffs and those are worse than gaffs. if i was joe biden, i would be focusing on he wouldn't say he wouldn't pack the court. >> i don't think that's a big issue. >> it's a very big issue. >> another important issue is covid-19. to hear the president of the united states dismiss his experts on fundamental policy. >> i think the president did a

much better job on that. the president brought that up. there is a cost of health of quality of life of shutting down this economy. i think he did a good job of painting joe biden as -- addiction is up, suicide is up, domestic violence way up. all of these things are happening and we ignore that because we look how many people die and not how many people suffer. >> the trap that biden fell into on that question, and i agree with you, is he should have said i want to open up, but the right way. >> he should have said that on that point. the bottom line is that the country is in the throes of the vaccine and how that's treated.

i think right to where he dismissed fake news, some of the criticisms of his handling this thing, i think it was him reflexively row sponding. -- responding. it's dangerous. dismissed his fbi director and cdc director. when inconvenient he dismisses it. >> i am speaking for conservatives because i hear this over and over again. the media is focused on one health crisis and there are others going on. >> you can't solve one without the other. the reason people were isolated was because we didn't have a handle on this. the president pushed the country back into opening up at a pace that now we see waves coming

again. >> and without the proper -- >> and ridiculing biden on masks. >> and cdc on being too tough on their guidelines on how to safely open up schools. >> i totally agree with you and i think biden tried to make that point and didn't make it as well. >> he didn't make it at all. >> if you remember back to the debate, or maybe you want to forget it, that donald trump interrupted a segment to insult joe biden's intelligence, that he did not go to college. where did that come from? >> you have been talking about this element of donald trump for four years and this destructive

impulse to lash out in ways that are -- i got a text from the grandfather of a 12-year-old, to your point, not an african-american kid. we just had to talk will off a rage spiral. his first ever debate and shit-show doesn't begin to describe it. >> i want to say a couple more things. biden had an opportunity. i think he did reasonably well, but could have done better. thank goodness climate change was mentioned. what trump didn't take responsibility on, those are federal forests in california

because of rampant climate change. i was sad to hear the way president trump talk about it the way he did. the other thing biden gets credit for is the way he conducted himself. three conversations, one was between trump and chris wallace. that was its own thing, and then there was a conversation between trump and biden. biden sometimes did well, but trump was always terrible. there was another, biden and the american people. i thought he did a good job turning over and over again to the american people. that was effective for joe biden. >> let's get reaction from the running mate, kamala harris. we will go to her in one second.

in the meantime, dana bash, to you. a friend of mine in kansas city watching her first debate with her sixth grade daughter, her daughter bursts into tears and runs to bed because she was so appalled at what she saw from the president of the united states. we want to dive into the substance, but it's hard to get there. >> because you couldn't hear or listen to what they were trying to say. when joe biden tried to talk because donald trump kept interrupting him. and even chris wallace, the few times he got in there, he didn't have any luck. it was at the end of the dough ba de/* -- debate when he called

out donald trump. >> it was a clear contrast in what they were trying to get out of the debate. ultimately, if you could hear something at the end of the day, you may have only heard one side of it because the president worked the reps on this rather than speaking to the american public. >> now i think we have senator kamala harris. are you there? >> i am, jake. >> thank you for joining us. simple question, after what went

down this evening, do you think joe biden should participate in a second or third dough bait? -- debate. >> joe biden addresses the hopes and dreams of the american families and he has a plan for dealing with those hopes and aspirations. >> do you think the american people benefited from what we saw this evening?

>> -- of public health pandemic and being measured against the great dough presidentiepression crisis. joe was trying to have a mature conversation about that. donald trump interrupted, bullied the moderator and lied to the american people. i think the american people did benefit from a clear contrast of what they have now and what they could get. i think it will be achieved from everyone votes. >> something that has alarmed the anti-defamation league.

he didn't denounce the white supremacists and then he told a group to stand back and stand by. members of that group that are blamed for a lot of violence in cities, are rejoicing. >> i heard what he would all heard, the president of the united states in the year of our lord 2020 refuses condemn white supremacists, and in addition has created a number of policies with pride, which is toend the training on the issue of race and what we must do to avoid pre prejudice and bias.

this is a president -- people talk about is he doglessing? through bull horns. joe biden is not afraid to speak the phrase black lives matter. he said we need to deal with this and speak truth and do it with a spirit of unifying our country. contrast so clear. on the one hand donald trump throughout his campaign for presidency trying to sow hate and division, trying to get the american people to turn on each other. and on the other hand joe biden. recognizing the kind of division that has taken place in our country. and there was a genuine goal of unifying our country once, god

willing, he wins this election. >> there are a number of democrats who say if judge barrett is confirmed and if you and joe biden win, then there should be consideration of adding seats to the us supreme court. neither of you are willing to give a straight answer whether you are willing to entertain that idea. it is not a fringe idea. chuck schumer said he is not taking anything off the table. is that an idea you are willing to think about? >> we are 35 days away from an election that is probably the most important election of our lifetime and our children's lifetime. there is nothing about these next 35 days that joe or i will take for granted and so the focus right now is on reminding people that we have this

election that is very much in play. it is about reminding people that -- in the spirit of hypocrisy, donald trump is trying to push through someone right now. deal with later later. focus on what is happening now. vote. let's not get distracted. let's be focused on what is right in front of us because there is a lot at stake in terms of our integrity, our election system. >> i will respectfully note that you also declined to answer that

question. senator kamala harris, thanks for being here. >> good to be with you, jake. thanks for the question. >> i don't understand why they won't answer that question. >> i understand why they won't answer that question. this is sort of like the medicare for all of the general election which is that there is an idea being talked about on the left of their party and they want to stay in the middle. but it should not be anything new. this is something joe biden has avoided talking about since the primaries. but he would should be clear. the idea of packing the court is not widely held democratic idea. people are talking about it, many on the internet. when you look at how democrats feel about this, this is not something democrats -- >> that was one of the more memorable moments that joe biden

had on this issue in the debate. he said the democratic party is me. i am the democratic party. that is something he practiced and delivered. the biden campaign understood that donald trump was going to go after him as being a socialist, somebody who is a puppet of the left of his party. so he wanted to put his face to the heart of that argument. unclear if he did it, but he had a memorable line. >> i know he would want to talk about the substance of this stuff, but when you have the president of the united states telling a neofasist group to stand back and stand by threatening to take down the election system, that seems off

point. >> the president we knew would attack on mail-in balloting. listen to what he said about unsolicited ballots. >> a solicited ballot is okay. you are soliciting, they send it and you send it back. unsolicited, they are sending millions of ballots all over the country. there is fraud. how do you rate that statement? >> that is fault. -- false. there is no significant fraud in mail balloting. nine states plus the district of columbia are sending out unsolicited ballots, about half because of the pandemic, but about half of them including

utah did so before the pandemic without incidence. so mail fraud is exceedingly rare. >> joe biden pushed back about it in republican controlled states. >> why is it for them not the same process? no one has established that somehow mail-in balloting is fraudulent. >> look at -- they have no idea what happened. >> what do you make of that? >> there was no evidence of fraud in new york's 12th district.

there were a significant number of ballots rejected for missing or flawed signatures. some ballots were sent out late to voters. but it was said that trump lied about what happened and he has done so repeatedly. no fraud in the 12 th district. almost everything he said about mail-in fraud was wrong. there was no mail-man selling ballots. he was caught altering primary ballot applications. he told a story about something that allegedly happened in philly today or this week.

l literally, everything the president says about ballots needs to be fact checked. >> who was pleased with tonight's debate were america's a adversaries, china, tehran, russia. the u.s. intelligence committee has said this has been their objective. from their view, mission accomplished. >> and neo-fasist groups around the world and the country. >> anna, the debate started out

with both sides on the attack. >> we have 14 voters who were undecided. we saw heads shaking and eyes rolling. let's start with jacqueline. you said this was an exhausting debate. what did you think about the interrupting? >> it was exhausting, like two children fighting. i came here to try to learn and have an open mind and try and decide who i really wanted today vote for and hear their opinions rather than social media. i felt like i was just watching two people argue and talk over one another.

>> you said it was what you expected? >> american political theater at its finest. we only get to see this every four years. i was glad to see joe biden showed up just like he debated paul ryan for vice president. trump had good command. it was nice to see. i think we have a real battle here. >> maria, did the interrupting make you feel more strongly or less strongly towards one of the candidate? >> it was distracting. i found myself agreeing with president trump. it is not what he is saying, but how he is saying it. i find myself being swayed against him not for him even though i believe in what he is saying. >> kevin, you said it was a train wreck. >> train wreck, disaster. >> you voted for trump in 2016.

you did not like what you heard. >> i was not pleased with it. the whole interrupting started with him. president trump was very childish. i was disappointed that joe biden got drawn in, but i was also difficult that he would not, when you are hearing stuff, crazy stuff about his family that is not true, how are you going to leave that unspoken without saying anything against it. i get it, but it was too bad. >> did it bother you hearing joe biden calling the president of the united states clown, name calling. >> i think we have gotten past that. he called lelizabeth warren

pocahontas. but when the shoe fits -- when the clown shoe fits. >> you were laughing at a lot of those moments where other people were shaking their head. >> again, he is our commander in chief. if you are in a debate. people want to be respected. calling him a clown is out of pocket. i just don't agree with it. >> i spoke with every one of these people before you came to me. the number of people who called this debate frustrating, a train wreck, exhausting, was pretty much the entire group. nobody felt good about what they heard. there were a few high moments. i will toss it back to you so you can show us one of them. >> we measured their reactions

before the candidates spoke. men's responses will be in green and women's yellow. if lines go up, they liked it, if the lines go down, they didn't like it. the moment that hit the high mark with both men and women. >> show up and vote. you will determine the outcome of this election. vote, vote, vote. if you are able to vote early, vote early. if you are able to vote in person, vote in person. vote whatever way is the best way for you. he cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of this election. in terms of whether or not the votes are counted, they are all counted, if i win, he will accept it. if i lose, he will accept it.

>> obviously there were very few moments that were high for both men and women. that was one of the highest across the board. you felt strongly. this will be your first election ever voting. why was it such an important moment for you? >> no matter what you stand for or who you stand for, it's important for these elections, to go vote because that's you saying what your stance is. 40 years from now, i hope i can be proud of who i voted for. >> why did you feel like you were really, really engaged in that moment with joe biden talking about voting? >> it's so important for everybody living in the united states is to go out and vote and let your voice be heard. >> it's such a normal thing,

right? nothing relevant they were speaking of and yet in this election it struck a high note. >> i agree with that. it's important to get out there and let everyone do their part so all of their voices are heard. >> these are undecided voters. the question here is was there a clear winner? let me do a quick show of hands, if you will. who thought joe biden won the debate. one person. show of hands if you thought donald trump won the debate. and of course that doesn't necessarily mean that those people raising their hand have made up their mind who they will vote for. but as you can see, there was no clear winner. a couple people one way or

another, but no clear winner. >> not a lot of hands being raised. back with our folks. it's also interesting how people saw it through the television in their homes. >> i think in a way they saw it the way we have seen around this table which was that it was not an edifying debate, that donald trump did not behave as one would expect a president to behave. these are undecided voters. they couldn't decide. so i think it's probably not going to change the trajectory of this election very much. but it was sort of a stark viewing of this president's character. i know we have seen it for the last 3 1/2 years out there. >> that's baked into this. nothing the president did that helped him and it could have. it's more of a missed opportunity for trump to show a

different side of him than it was that this is fatal to him. how many times have we said fatal, this is it? >> another side. >> i said it didn't change it. >> for voters, isn't the decision how you want to spend the next four years? >> exactly. >> one woman who spoke i think maybe first who said i kind of liked some of the things he says, but i just don't like the way he behaves. that means i probably can't vote for him. that will be the story in some ways of this election. >> that's been the story the last four years. >> women have moved away from him in big numbers. what is really interesting is watching women without a college degree who voted for him by 23 points in 2016. that was a major thing for him. he is now battling to win that group with joe biden.

it is an even fight. this is why. in that way i think he did himself dramatic harm tonight. >> i agree. >> i think so, too. another group he had in his pocket were older white voters. i don't think that older white voters. i don't mean to speak for folks i don't spend a lot of time with. i don't think they like stuff like that. i think they remember a time when decorum was a part of the deal. i don't understand the political strategy. at the end of the day they are supposed to be dividing their base and unite us. i am hearing from republicans, white people, older voters, that they don't like what they saw.

but white supremacists liked what they saw. >> the moment that really stuck out to me was when joe biden was talking about bo and him having served in the military and the president turned the conversation to hunter, all of the harangs about ukraine, and then he turned it to biden's son being thrown out of the military service because of cocaine. biden said that's not true. but then biden said families suffer from people who have drug addiction. i am proud of my son for overcoming what he did. i am a mother. you think that's a good father. >> he said my son. >> and i am proud of him

overcoming it. it was an important moment. >> we are going to have an important take on who, if anyone won tonight. we will have the poll of cnn's debate watchers. back after the break. sarah: for a while i've had like a, kind of negative self image. there was like this contrast between like the way that i was thinking about my personality and the way that i was thinking about my body. with noom, i was able to learn how to interrupt those habits and create new ones. so my goal was 35 pounds and i've lost about 30 pounds now. so.. i've never been this confident in my body. my name is sara and i changed my life with noom. visit noom.com and lose the weight for good.

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even though it was chaotic, we have our fact checker back. >> his own former spokesperson said riots and chaos and violence help his cause. >> i don't know who said that. >> i do. >> who? >> kellyanne conway. >> i don't think she said that. >> did she say that? >> she didn't use those exact words, but she was asked about

criticism of pete and -- i have the quote here. he knows and mayor pete knows that the anarchy and violence reigns they will know who is the clear choice for law and order. and that is president trump. >> and the question was about trade deals. >> trade deals, he talks about the great trade deals. china has perfected the art of the steal. we have a higher trade deficit than we did before. >> biden was slightly off here.

he would have been correct if he was talking last year. in 2018 the u.s. trade deficit hit a record $380 billion, but it declined down to $308 which was a couple billion lower than the obama. but trade deficit is not the best way to measure a trading deficit. >> appreciate it. how does the race change? >> i don't think it does. trump needed to change the dynamic tonight and i think he just reinforced the dynamic. i think biden did what he needed to do. it wasn't a stellar performance, but it was good enough. he did his decency and hung in

there 90 minutes and that's what he needed to do. i have the sense that donald trump know he's losing at some level and i think he's angry about it and i think he indulged the anger. >> if i was a republican elected official running for office, i would be pretty mad at him. he allowed himself -- he indulged himself, to the detriment -- to the woman that was quoted in ohio. i liked a lot of the things he said. i don't think this is a center of left country. i think this is a center of

right country. we can win with a center of right campaign, but you can't when you have someone as kcaustc as what the president was in this debate. a lot of republicans will be upset we have a winning message, contrast and we had a candidate who didn't do well in biden, but donald trump ran wild. >> it's unusual because he's known for being so restrained in indulging his appetites. >> i love hearing from voters. those were undecided people in an important state. the one woman said i wanted to learn something and i couldn't learn. >> poll watchers, do they think

either candidate came out a winner. we will hear from ohio voters. did any of them make up their mind tonight? it's a lifetime appointment. and a majority of americans say the vote for the next supreme court justice should wait till after the election. but instead of letting our voices be heard, trump and mcconnell are rushing it through and taking a short cut to the highest court in the land. there's a pandemic devastating every corner of the country, but they're just rushing to play politics with the court. it's a lifetime appointment, tell senators to do it right.

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new verdict on how tonight's off-the-rails trump-biden debate played with viewers. joining us once again, sew, david, who won? >> i just want to make clear for the audience, this is a poll of debate watchers. this is not a poll of the country, at large. and in this sample of debate watchers, it was slightly more democratic audience. 39% democratic.

36% independent. 25% republican. so we are seeing a slightly more democratic audience, in this group of debate watchers. and now, i can reveal to you, who won the debate tonight. joe biden, hands down. 60% of debate watchers say joe biden won the debate. 28% say donald trump won the debate. and take a look at how this compares with expectations, wolf. we asked these debate watchers, going in, who do you think will win the debate? well, for that, before the debate, you saw 56% said biden. 43% said trump. he, significantly, the president, underperformed expectations of these debate watchers, in this poll. we also asked who was more truthful in the debate? 65% say joe biden. seems these debate watchers agree with daniel dale and his fact checks here. 29% say donald trump.

and what about who's attacks were more fair on the other one? okay. were biden's attacks fair? 69% of these debate watchers say, yes, biden's attacks were fair. 28% say no. the flip side of that, were donald trump's attacks fair? only 32%, a third of debate watchers, said they were two-thirds of debate watchers, 67%, say, no, donald trump's attacks tonight in the debalt we debate were not fair. wolf. >> let's go back to jake, dana, and abby. he stood up to the president of the united states. he didn't back down, at all. and he clearly didn't need a teleprompter. >> that's right, wolf. and i guess it's no surprise, abby, with a slightly more democratic-leaning audience, as this poll had. not to mention that just utter embarrassment of a debate, that people would overwhelmingly say biden won the debate and donald trump lost. but i have to say, i don't think

it's, so much, that joe biden won the debate. i don't think he had any, like, outstanding moments. i don't think he commanded the stage. i think it's more just that donald trump lost it, and lost it aggressively and repeatedly and, frankly, offensively. >> yeah. you could see it in the focus group when you looked at the show of hands. most of them didn't raise their hands for either one of these candidates and i think that's a pretty accurate reflection of where we are. i think tonight was a lot of missed opportunities for the president to clear up some real issues that he had. some vulnerabilities, especially on the coronavirus. he completely, completely missed an opportunity to really set the american public straight about whether he has this pandemic under control. and, you know, don't take it from me. i mean, tonight, the president's campaign says he turned in the greatest debate performance of presidential history. and then, there is chris christie, the jer junew jersey governor, he said tonight, i

think, on the trump side, it was too hot. so even the people who are there for the president, they don't -- they didn't think that he did what he -- >> except for the people -- >> whose jobs depend on it. >> right. i mean, it could have been written by donald trump. >> probably, was. >> probably. i think the fact that -- the fact that the expectations in this instant poll, versus the reality of what the people who are part of this saw, is really telling. so before the debate, 56% of the people said that they thought that joe biden would win. but afterwards, 60%. and then, more importantly, making your point, jake, 43% said that they thought trump would win. but afterwards, 28%. it was donald trump's debate to lose and he lost it. >> yeah, because he wasn't just debating joe biden. he was debating chris wallace. he was debating democracy. he was debating decency. he was debating truth and facts.

i mean, he was opposed to everything. it was donald trump debating the concept of whether there should be debates. >> i have to tell you. i'm curious to see what you have heard. i've gotten some texts from republicans saying, you know, this is the kind of thing that we've heard from people who have come out of the administration and turned on the president. that, this is how he performs, in private. and we've seen, now, a lot of that in public. >> and i heard from a republican congressman, abby, who was embarrassed that the president asked the proud voice, the far-right, neo-fascists, to stand by. >> well, that was really shameful, as we all have been saying. but i mean, i don't think we should discount that, you know, some 20 something percent of people in this poll say they did like it. many of those people are probably republicans. >> absolutely. still more takeaways from tonight and our focus group of undecided voters. have they made up their minds, after tonight? stay with us.

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welcome back to cnn's coverage of debate night in america. we are getting new information act jo about joe biden's take on tonight. let's check in with arlette saenz. arlette, what are you hearing from the biden camp? >> saying that joe biden is going to show up, despite what we saw at tonight's debate, where president trump interrupted and dominated a lot of the evening's debate and conversation. the biden campaign knows that the next debate in miami will be a town hall, and says that biden relishes being able to talk with everyday voters. something he'll get the opportunity to do in that debate. and they question whether the

president might engage in the same type of tactics he did, tonight, when he is in that town hall in the upcoming debate. now, one thing that the biden campaign did acknowledge is that the campaigns and commission are constantly talking about formats and rules for these debates. but they did not indicate whether there are any specific changes they would try to see in the wake of this debate. but ultimately, the biden campaign says that biden is going to show up. you heard kamala harris, earlier in the evening, also saying that he will never get up a chance -- give up a chance to talk to voters, and connect with those voters. so we will expect to see the former vice president at these next two debates in miami and nashville. but ultimately, tonight, the biden campaign is trying to frame this as a moment where joe biden showed himself as capable of being president. they said that there was one person that was a leader on that stage. another person, that was a liar, referring to the president. and ultimately, they think that the way that biden carried himself in this debate will hold

some sway with voters, who they are trying to bring into their corner heading into november. >> is he staying in cleveland tonight? heading back to wilmington, delaware? what's his plan? >> so joe biden is staying overnight here, in cleveland. and tomorrow, he is kicking off this train tour through eastern ohio and western pennsylvania. and that train tour is going to take him to some trump counties in pennsylvania. a state that helped take president trump to the white house, back in 2016. two of those counties that biden is going to stop in, the president won by more than 30 points. and we have seen this tactic from biden, trying to go into these trump-country type of areas, to try to win over supporters who may have backed the president last time around, but who, perhaps are thinking of a different option, this time. >> very interesting, indeed. thanks very much, arlette. let's go back to our fact checker, daniel dale. the president trying to deflect criticism of his handling of the coronavirus by claiming former vice president biden will shut

down the country if he were in office. listen to this. >> he wants to shut down this country, and i want to keep it open. wait a minute, joe. let me shut you down for a second, joe. just for one second. we want to -- he wants to shut down the country. >> all right, daniel. what are the facts? >> wolf, this is, again, false. joe biden has not expressed any desire to shut down the country. he has not presented any plan to shut down the country. here's what happened. in an august interview with abc, biden was talking about the importance of listening to scientists on the pandemic and he was pressed about what he would do if scientists said we need to shut things down. he said, in that case, he would shut it down but he didn't say this was his intent. and he walked back these kmep comments after the interview. he said, in september, there is going to be no need, in my view, to shut down the economy. presidents, themselves, can't shut down the whole economy. so bottom line, biden has expressed a willingness to do some sort of shutdown, if

recommended by scientific experts, to combat the virus. but it's false to say he wants to shut down or is planning for one. wolf. >> let's turn to another key moment, daniel, in the debate about the coronavirus pandemic. listen to this exchange between the former vice president and the president. >> this is the same man who told you, by easter, this would be gone away. warm weather, it'd be gone just like a miracle. and by the way, maybe you could inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of it. >> that was said sarcastically. you know that. >> so daniel, the president claimed he was being sarcastic when he talked about injecting bleach. >> he just wasn't, wolf. he wasn't sarcastic in april suggesting to use disinfectant to combat the virus. this is an egregious rewriting of history. we all saw what happened. trump was dead serious. what happened is he looked in the direction of medical experts, including dr. deborah

birx and he said, and i quote, and then, i see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? because you see it gets in the lungs. it does a tremendous number on the lungs. so it'd be interesting to check that. so that, you are going to have to use medical doctors with but it sounds -- it sounds interesting to me. so, bottom line, wolf, trump's s sarcasm claim is just false. >> he clearly was not being sarcastic. daniel, we are going to get back to you soon. more fact checking coming up. anderson, over to you. >> let's get more results from our poll. david is back with that. david. >> yeah, anderson. that's right. this is a poll of those folks that were watching the debate. not a poll of the country, overall. but of debate watchers, which was clearly also a more democratic-leaning audience. we asked, of course, the basic question, who won the debate? 60% say joe biden won the debate. 28% say donald trump won the debate. i mean, that's -- that's

atrouncing there, obviously. take a look at which candidate actually talked more about solving the country's problems or do you believe had a better plan for solving the country's problems? 63% say joe biden. 30% say donald trump. how about which candidate better addressed concerns about their candidacies? 59%, joe biden better addressed any concerns these debate watchers had about their candidacy. only 37% for donald trump. which of these candidates seems to be the stronger leader? seems to be a strong leader? this is a slightly better category for the president. 55% for joe biden. he still beats the president here. but 43% of debate watchers in our poll say that it was donald trump who seemed to be the stronger leader. and then, we also asked these debate watchers, anderson, did the debate make your mind up? more likely. would you be more likely to vote

for biden or vote for trump because of this debate you watched? look at the bottom number there. a majority of debate watchers say, neither, that the debate did not make it more likely that they would vote for either candidate. a third said, yes, more likely to vote for joe biden. only 11% said more likely to vote for donald trump. so across the board, all the stuff we talked about going into the debate, of what donald trump needed to do to upend the trajectory in this race. according to these debate watchers in our poll, anderson, he didn't do them, at all. he did not accomplish what he needed to do. >> david chalian, i appreciate it. let's go to our team here standing by. kirsten powers, do you think joe biden did what he needed to do? or donald trump did what he needed to do? i. >> i actually am going to differ from a lot of people i have been hearing tonight. i think biden did a great job. i don't think people appreciate how hard it is to keep your cool, stay focused, when you have somebody interrupting you, constantly, bullying you.

you know, berating you. being nasty. the way that the president was acting tonight with biden. and i think you have to bear in mind that that's what he was dealing with. i mean, i used to do a regular segment with bill o'reilly. bill wasn't even as bad as the president was and seven minutes was enough, you know, you could barely -- you walk off the set with a migraine. so the fact that he did this for an hour and a half with the president behaving this way, and still landed some really -- made some really good points. i think he was excellent talking about covid. i think he had some moments where he really connected with -- with the people who were watching. you know, when he was talking about covid. when he was talking about how many of you are sitting there with a -- you know, an empty kitchen seat with somebody that you lost? i think his response is very humane way he spoke about his son. i think he actually did well all things considered.

>> what do you think? >> i think this was a tremendous night for joe and democrats, because you have to take context into account. joe is significantly up nationwide. a new poll came out that said he is nine points up in pennsylvania. the ratings for this debate will be very, very high. i'm going to suggest that the ratings for the coming debates might not be as high because tonight was not a pleasant viewing experience for a lot of americans. and so, really, if you are the biden campaign, you are thrilled. joe spoke directly to the american people. the dynamic of the race has not changed, which is great news for joe, cakamala, and the democrat >> scott jennings. i mean, people don't want to watch the next two debates. do they want the next four years to be like what we just saw tonight? >> yeah. i've been thinking a lot, anderson, about this "new york times" poll that came out over the weekend. it actually had donald trump at 46% job approval, which is pretty good for him. but only 41% on the ballot

against joe biden. and i've been thinking why would you have a gap like that? but he's obviously losing some people who say i like his policies, but are something else, exhausted. and i am thinking about if those people were watching this debate tonight, how do they feel? and i also think about debates like this, anderson, through the lens of audience. and the main thing, in terms of job approval, all this four years, has been women. he does fine among men but women have never given him high marks. and i cannot imagine he did anything tonight that any female viewer who was thinking about supporting him would have appreciated. so if you are looking at it from a raw perspective of what do i have to do to add back to my coalition to get back to where i need to be to win the election? i didn't find it, tonight. >> you know, it's interesting because if people were tuning in to try to figure out which candidate to vote for, if they're undecided and it's unclear how many people are still undecided.

nobody really got a sense of what the next four years would look like. certainly, not with donald trump, you didn't really get a sense in terms on policy. if you were looking for any kind of policy guidance of what they're actually hoping to achieve, i'm not sure anybody really got that. kirsten. >> yeah. no. i mean, it seems like the strategy -- you know, if there was a strategy and i'd be interested to know what scott thinks about this. but if there was a strategy, i suspect that it was to just keep hitting biden and just hit him, hit him, hit him, until he finally couldn't take it because, you know, a lot of people had concerns that biden, over an hour and a half, maybe, wouldn't hold up that well. i think he did, actually, hold up pretty well. but if you're trump, you just think i'm going to keep hitting him. and you saw how he crumbled a little bit in some of the primary debates and i'm just going to keep doing that. and it just didn't work. you know, biden was really able to kind of withstand it. in fact, biden kind of started out slow and i felt like as he was getting hit, he got a little bit sharper.

>> scott, what do you think? >> i will answer that, anderson because i think, kers tirsten. holes he couldn't climb out of. the problem is he went from being an offense to just being offensive. if you are going to hit somebody and rattle them, you have got to let that rattling take effect. and trump just kept sbrinterrupg and badgering him all night long. he did make i think a few misstatements on some of the agenda items but that's not what we are going to remember from this debate. so i think the strategy was there but it was overplayed. >> andrew yang, did you ever imagine a sitting president of the united states, you know, not criticizing not, you know, repudiating white supremacists? and, in fact, telling them to stand by. you know, stand down and stand by. i mean, they're -- the only

people celebrating, it seems, online tonight about tonight's debate are white supremacists and neo-nazis. >> that was a really dark and painful moment for millions of americans to see our president fail to do the obvious thing, which is to repudiate white supremacists. and instead, he gave them cause to celebrate. but to me, it was clear that joe was instructed to try and keep his cool, speak directly to the american people. and he did both of those things. the other dark moment, beyond the failure to repudiate white supremacists, anderson, was when trump raised the specter of fraudulent balloting toward the end where he raised this ridiculous image of dumping ballots in a river. but the truth is that we may be counting votes, for quite some time, after election day. and we have to keep americans' confidence in the integrity of the process high so that we are able to wait for a number of days if that's what it takes.

so that was, to me, another very, very dark and difficult moment to watch because trump, clearly, is trying to, already, work the american people. and say that the outcome should be something that we question. >> scott -- i mean, scott, as a republican, to -- it's not just he didn't repudiate white supremacists. he told them to stand by. like, oh, don't -- don't do anything, now. but stand by because i might need you? i mean, stand by cause if things don't go my way, i'd love you to not stand by any longer? and -- and come to a town near you? i mean, what does that -- can you believe that a president of the united states would say that? >> well, i'm just going to say, he's going to have to speak for himself on this because he has to clean this up. he has to clear it up. it's the wrong answer. it's always been the wrong answer. there is a clear, right answer to these questions, which is, anyone who is committing violence, left, right, white, black, up, down, if you're in a city and you're committing

violence, and you're doing it in the name of white supremacy or antifa or anything else, you're all the same. you're hurting america. so go home and stop it. it's always been the right answer, and it's always been that clear. and the fact that he can't look into the camera and say it is a problem. and so, i hope that they come out later tonight, tomorrow, whatever, and clean it up because everybody who is committing violence deserves condemnation. white supremacists and everyone else in these cities that's doing it. they all deserve it. he knows it and he needs to clean it up. >> kirsten, the fact that we are even discussing this, still, given all that happened, you know, with charlottesville. it's incredible that he still can't answer that question in a way a decent human being would. >> but i think he answers it honestly, in the sense that that's how he feels, right? and i think that -- that's the problem. so, you know, the idea that he is going to clean it up. i mean, maybe, he would do that for political reasons but he's consistently done this throughout. i mean, he did it in the election last time.

he's done it, you know, throughout his presidency. this is -- he does not repudiate this. that -- that is his -- always his first answer is to either make excuses or to just say, you know, i'm not going to say anything about it. and he does -- it is -- it is astonishing. it's still astonishing, you know, no matter how many times he does it. i don't think we should ever lose, you know, our ability to be shocked by it. >> yeah. scott. >> you know, anderson, one issue on this. i think trump's resistance to this, often, comes in his innate resistance to being scripted by a media person. so, in this case, wallace was trying to get him to repeat after me. and as we know, trump has this internal resistance to allowing anybody in the press to make him say anything. but -- but even if that's your attitude, it cannot trump your better, moral judgment about these issues. it's politically wrong. but it's just wrong as the president. >> i would just give another alternative which is, a, he actually believes this.

or, b, that his -- anybody who is praising him or likes him, he's not going to criticize. he wants their votes. he likes the fact that they're stroking his ego. he supports -- you know, he says he likes, you know, he didn't repudiate qanon, a baseless, ridiculous, absurd, conspiracy theory, based on anti-semitic and anti-catholic tropes. and the first thing he said when finally asked on the record about it, they say nice things about me. if they are neo-nazis walking through the streets, he's not going to criticize them. i got to go back to -- to jake for more. jake. >> anderson, thanks so much. we want to go back now to foour focus group of undecided voters in battleground state, ohio. cnn's ana cabrera is with them outside westerville. and specifically, his push to have states loosen their restrictions when it comes to covid. but before we listen to that,

remember, you'll see lines at the bottom of your screen. green lines for men. yellow lines for women. gre green, up, means they like what they hear. down means they didn't. take a listen. >> you got to open these states up. it's not fair. you are talking about almost being in prison and you look what's going on with divorce. look at what's going on with alcoholism and drugs. it's a very, very sad thing and he will close down the whole country. this guy will close down the whole country and destroy our country. >> so, ana, what are the men in your focus group telling you about why this resonated with them? >> well, first of all, jake, i have to say, the men seem to be much more trigger happy when we were watching this debate. much more strongly agree and strongly disagree, throughout the evening. so that was one comment that resonated with a lot of the mean, here. and, in part, because we have small business owners here. we have fathers, who want their kids back in school. tom, i know you were happy to

hear the president talking about reopening the economy. >> yeah. i was. my wife and i are small business owners. and this shutdown has hurt us, quite a bit. and i think we've learned. you know, i think we can do both. i think we can reopen and be safe. and it's time to get back to it. >> so you don't necessarily think that you have to have the pandemic under control, in order to reopen the economy. >> no, i think we know how to be safe. you know, i think we're -- we distance. we wear masks. we -- we understand how to be safe. and that -- and that we can do it and if we can do it, in restaurants, we can do it in salons, like our business. i think we can do it everywhere. >> what about you, eric? because you -- you said, oh, yeah. oh, yeah, i want to reopen this economy. you got to get your kids back to school. >> we got to get the kids back to school. i think, like he said, we can do it safely and effectively if we just all put our heads together, follow the guidelines that were given. and we can reopen safely. >> so you have confidence that it is safe enough to put your kids back in school and to reopen these businesses? >> i would say that if we all follow the guidelines, and we do

what our part, we can get the schools open again. >> and that's why you said yes, that was a moment that you felt strong. andre, you felt a little bit more torn, you said, in that. >> right. i think that it needs -- it's nice -- it would be nice to have the economy opened up. but it needs to be done safely. i think that there's -- there's -- there's some understanding that needs to be had that not everybody's comfortable with everything opening up. so i think people can make those decisions. the ones that want to, can. can get things going again. >> but do you feel like this president has done everything he can to make the conditions safe enough in order to get things reopened so that the virus doesn't spread? >> i -- i think there's been a lot of things, like we were talking about earlier. i think the science is being followed but i think so -- so many people, this is like an unprecedented thing, so many people don't know exactly what to do and there's some conflicting information out there about what should be done. what works and what does not

work. >> kevin, i know you have been very unhappy with what you've heard throughout the past four years of this presidency. how has this president's response to the coronavirus impacted you? and what are your thoughts about how that may impact your vote? >> well, i mean, it's been difficult because my mother is in very fragile health. and so, we have to, we go and me and my siblings take care of things, on a weekly basis, that she can't do for herself. and because of corona, we have to be very careful about it. and -- and unfortunately, we can be as careful as we want but if the people around us refuse to be careful, that makes it difficult for us to enter into things, without taking a risk of -- of possibly making our loved ones ill and die. >> okay. so there you have it, jake. you hear how the men feel about the coronavirus. and that's why that was one of those moments that resonated

here among the men of our group tonight. >> and, ana, you know, nine out of ten voters made up their mind and looking at this one undecided voter in your whole group and thinking make up your mind. did tonight's debate help any of these voters decide who they are going to vote for, ultimately? >> the answer is yes, jake. again, 14 undecided voters going into this debate. i asked them to give me a show of hands before the debate, if they knew who they were going to vote for. and not a single hand went up. so let me ask the question, again. show of hands, who has decided who they're going to vote for tonight, based on what they heard in this debate? one, two, three, four, five, six of our 14 undecided voters have decided, tonight. show of hands. who is planning to vote for joe biden? one, two, three, four. and show of hands, who plans to

vote for donald trump? one, two. so there you have it. we've got four joe biden voters, now. and two donald trump voters. i want to get a few reactions, as to why is it joe biden for you? >> i think donald trump opened the debate with his strongest arguments, which were all lies about hillary clinton and joe biden's kids. he didn't really state that he had much of a plan. he just came out and started by throwing trash on hillary clinton. all that was discredited disinformation from -- from russia. it's just bizarre that he would start with that. >> you, also, are planning to vote for joe biden, tonight. you made upo your mind. why? >> i mean, even coming into this, i felt that i was leaning toward joe biden. i think, for me, just -- i think, for me, my biggest thing

was seeing how we can continue to collaborate together. i think president trump didn't convince me that that was his priority, in any aspect of his plans, he never really gave anything succinct that really stood out to me, personally. and those are things that concern me, and the things that are a priority to me, i feel that joe biden spoke to. there is no perfect candidate. but there is a candidate who, clearly, is trying and wants to develop actions that will create some results. and i think those results are the things that i look forward to. >> okay. let me get the other biden voters here. and then, i'll come back to our trump voters. christine, why did you decide, tonight, that biden is your guy? >> i think my 17-year-old daughter said it best. she said to me, the -- biden is the candidate the country needs now. i feel like the last three and a half years, with trump, have just been so divisive. and i saw it, again, tonight in the debate. and it scares me, honestly.

it embarrasses me as an american to watch that kind of attitude displayed to my children. displayed to us, as americans. i think we deserve better. and while i'm not 100% confident that biden, you know, put his message out there in a way that i can stand 100% behind. i'm ready. i'm ready to take the chance. and i -- i will stand behind him, before trump, at this point. >> your hand as well. you are going to be voting for biden. >> yeah. i came in leaning towards biden. but i was, you know, going to give trump a chance. you know, when he was -- during his presidency, you know, he came in here with no political background and i was like, you know, he had the opportunity to make a lot of changes, not really caring about how people viewed him since he doesn't have that background. i was thinking in particular about health care reform, and i was really hoping to see major changes in that since it's such a hard thing to make everyone happy. and you needed someone to go in

there and just be like, hey, this is what's going to happen so that we have better health care for everyone, you know, across the nation. >> and for you, it's very personal. >> yeah, absolutely. i kno you know, i have a child that's autistic and we are very lucky living in ohio where you get secondary insurance through medicaid. i can't even imagine if we did not have that insurance in place for him to cover all the things that our primary insurance doesn't pick up. so i care deeply about that subject. sq >> why did you feel like biden has a better vision? >> i don't know if he -- i -- i think he has -- you know, he seems to maybe care more about health care reform. and i don't know. he may not make any difference, either. but trump, you know, he really had the opportunity to do something with that. he didn't do it. and i'm ready to have someone else try their hand at that. >> okay. let's hear from our trump voters, who are going to vote for trump tonight.

>> yeah. so i have to admit. i think joe biden did a lot better than i expected him to do tonight. but it really made me mad when he blamed the coronavirus deaths on trump. i thought that was really unfair. i don't know that anybody could have prevented any of these deaths. and for him to lay all 200,000 at trump's feet really kind of made me mad. i didn't -- i did not like that, at all. and i don't think it was a -- it was a fair tactic. >> and so, did trump -- it was more what biden did that turned you off to him to make you vote for trump? or did trump speak to you tonight, specifically? >> no, trump didn't speak to me. i was looking for biden to kind of win me over and he didn't. he actually turned me off. >> okay. so yours would be a vote against joe biden, for trump. and you, also, are planning to vote for trump after tonight. why? >> yes, ma'am. coming into this debate, i was very open minded. leaning more towards president trump. but former vice presidep joe bi

listening to his kour counterarguments, how he carried himself. president trump was fiery. he was passionate. he provided more of what he did in 47 months, versus the 47 years that former vp joe biden was in. so it happened with the credibility. the unemployment he provided and helped with, along with opening back up america and what he wants to move towards. >> okay. thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and thanks to all of our group here for participating in our focus group tonight. and being part of this experiment and this conversation as we go forward. eight of our voters are, still, undecided. and we'll be looking to these candidates to give them a lot more. jake. >> all right. well, they still have a few more weeks to go. ana cabrera, thank you so much and, please, thank the focus group as well. abby, it's interesting

because -- yso you had 14 undecided voters. six of them made a decision. and roughly 4-2 -- not roughly. 4-2. 2-1. and that is actually what happened in the 2016 election, except reverse. people who were undecided and late deciders, ultimately, went for trump over hillary clinton. went for the challenger, if you will, if hillary clinton was the establishment candidate and the democrats to have the white house. so it's kind of interesting it's playing out there and polls indicate that's playing out as well. >> trump is now the establishment. i mean, he is the incumbent. so he is the one who has to say, you know, this is why you need to give me four more years and it's harder for him to run a sort of adversarial campaign against biden. you actually saw president trump really struggling to define joe biden. he kept trying to define joe biden as other people. as the radical left or as a socialist. but really, he had trouble really saying what is joe biden, really? i, also, think what we saw tonight in that focus group was the gender gap. that is literally the 20-point

gender gap that we are seeing in all the polls. the president is not winning over women because they cannot deal with his demeanor and his temperament and his way of behaving. >> i got an e-mail from a republican pollster who is in the field, all the time, across the board for lots of races who said the key group in tonight's debate are those republicans and independents, who like most of trump's policies, but dislike his persona. all they saw tonight was what they hate about donald trump. >> yeah. he was his own tweets, come to life. >> he was. he absolutely was. and what you just said about the fact that, you know, the whole likability question. and about hillary clinton. i mean, that is such an important difference that we talked about at the beginning of the night. that it's good to underscore. which is, when people broke for donald trump over hillary clinton, there was a feeling among a lot of those late deciders that they didn't like either of them. but they just said, eh, we'll go

with the guy we don't really know about. not the woman who we have seen in our living room for decades. it's not the case with joe biden. he is well liked, comparatively. certainly, for a politician, who has been in -- in the public li life for 47 years. it is very, very different not just from hillary clinton but from donald trump. >> and polls indicate among voters out there who dislike biden and trump, more of them are going to vote for biden, which is opposite of what happened with hillary clinton. coming up next. more results from our instant poll of debate watchers. how are they grading the candidates on the issues, after what they heard tonight? stay with us. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ [ engines revving ] ♪ ♪ it's amazing to see them in the wild like th--

shhh. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. more dangerous and corrupt president than trump. he's harming our basic values, giving rise to hate, and he's selling out america to big corporations. i'm working to protect immigrants, women, communities of color, and lgbtq people. and i'm making corporations like pg&e and insurance companies play by our rules. we need experienced leadership to wipe away trump's stain on america for good.

many debate watchers had very strong reactions to tonight's often chaotic face off between president trump and former vice president joe biden. david chalian is back with more results from our instant poll. david, what else are you getting? >> remember, wolf, this is a poll of debate watchers, not a poll of the country, overall. but these debate watchers. we tested a whole bunch of issues, trump versus biden, and how it came out in the debate.

and in nearly every issue, except one that we tested, wolf, biden bested trump by 2-1. take a look. overall, who won the debate? 60% of these debate watchers say joe biden. 28% say donald trump. who would better handle the coronavirus outbreak? 64%, biden. 34%, trump. who would better handle health care? 66%, biden. 32%, trump. who would better handle racial inequality in the u.s.? another topic in tonight's debate. take a look here. 66%, biden. 29%, trump. so, again, all those issues, 2-1, joe biden bests donald trump. here is the economy. who would better handle the economy? and it's basically tied here. 50% say joe biden. 48% say donald trump. we have been seeing this in all the national polling and battleground state polling. the economy is clearly the issue where donald trump has the best

hold with the electorate. and it shocks me, every day, that it's not all he talks about, wolf. >> very important point, indeed. david chalian, thank you. we have another key debate moment to fact check right now. fact checker daniel dale is back. dani daniel as expected, the president went on the attack against the former vice president's son hunter biden. claiming he was given millions of dollars by the mayor of moscow. listen to this. >> he wasn't given tens of millions of dollars. >> totally, discredited. >> we've already been through this. i think the american people would rather hear about more substantial subjects. >> so do i. >> well, you know, as the moderator, sir, i'm going to make a judgment call here. >> someone gets three and a half million dollars from the mayor of moscow. >> all right. so, daniel, any truth to that? >> so, first thing, the issue is about payment from the wife of the late mayor of moscow, not the mayor, himself.

more broadly, though, wolf, this is one where i actually can't render a firm verdict. we just don't have proof, either way. it's important to note off the top, though, hunter biden, through his lawyer, denies this allegation. he never got such a payment. so what is trump talking about? a partisan report from republicans just released, got a $3.5 million payment from this russian businesswoman. it was for a consulting agreement, according to the wire transfer. hunter biden co-founded a firm called rosemont seneca. a separate partnership. i don't know, either way. but that's what they say. it's also important to note senate republicans did not, themselves, provide proof the money actually went to hunter biden. hunter biden, who is a businessman, would have done anything wrong in receiving such a payment. finally, wolf, i will note, as "politico" reported this week,

trump, himself, tried as a businessman to do business with the government of the same late moscow mayor. so bottom line here, i don't really have a bottom line. i can't be firm on this one but trump doesn't have proof, himself, wolf. >> very interesting. let's turn to another familiar line of attack the president leveled, daniel, against mr. biden as he tries to appeal for suburban votes. watch this. >> but if he ever got to run this country, and they ran it the way he would want to run it, we would have -- our suburbs would be gone. by the way, our suburbs would be gone and you would see problems. >> all right. daniel, the verdict on that -- that claim. >> wolf, this is so false, i think it's safe to say it's ridiculous. what is trump even talking about here? it's an anti-segregation rule from the obama era. it's called affirmatively affirmative fair housing rule. and what it does is update a decades-old rule.

contrary to what trump said, this does nsimply requires town document racial discrimination in their neighborhoods and create goals to reduce segregation. it's affirmatively affirmative fair housing. look. we already have a significant amount of suburban poverty. the suburbs still exist. obviously. so bottom line here, wolf, the claim that a biden presidency means the suburbs are gone is -- is just false. >> excellent work, daniel. thank you very much. anderson, back to you. >> wolf, thanks very much. now, let's get reaction to another over-the-top attack by the president tonight as he responded to joe biden raising concerns about trump's handling of the pandemic. listen. >> a lot of people died and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter, a lot quicker. >> mr. president? >> did you use the word smart? so you said you went to delaware state but you forgot the name of your college. you didn't go to delaware state. you graduated, either the lowest or almost the lowest, in your

class. don't ever use the word smart with me. don't ever use that word. >> oh, give me a break. >> because, you know what, there's nothing smart about you, joe. 47 years, you've done nothing. >> yeah. don't ever use the word smart with me is what he said. i don't know that a lot of people do use the word smart with president trump. but -- but, probably, some do. andrew, does -- where does the race go, from here? i mean, does anything change tomorrow? >> again, you have to take the look at the context, anderson. where the republicans and donald trump needed a boost, and they did not get it tonight. and, scott, when you talk about the plan for tonight from the trump team. i guarantee you that this was not the plan. i guarantee you that trump was not told to be this antagonistic, this negative. and when he goes back, because i've been a candidate, you get prepped ahead of time. and then, you go back and talk to your team afterwards.

i have a feeling, right now, their team is preparing their résumes and looking for -- for an exit door because this was not the plan, at all, on that side. whereas, joe was given a plan, he stuck to it. he -- he was told keep your cool. talk to the american people. don't get dragged into conflicts that are irrelevant to the american people and he did just that. >> look. andrew, nobody's quitting a campaign in october. i mean, the reality is i'm sure the strategy was for donald trump to go and try to rattle joe biden. to try to get on offense. to try to really rev him up and get him to lose his temper. he has lost his temper in debates that you were in. he screamed at elizabeth warren. he challenged a guy in iowa to a pushup contest. so that was, clearly, something they had thought about. but the problem is there is a moment, where you have to let it breathe. and you have to get the person where you want them, and then let them dig. and then, you come back and bury the hole. i mean, it's a classic sort of debating strategy. but if you keep talking over

them, and you go and you just keep on, then it all becomes about you. and that's another thing about the framing of this race. donald trump needs a choice. a choice between his ability to recover the economy and joe biden's failed record and ideas. biden needs a referendum on trump. and trump's strategy, overplaying, kept him at the center of the race tonight, which means it's still all about him. and if you believe the polling, that's not a winning hand. >> so, scott, what would donald trump do or what should he do in a second debate? >> i mean, i don't know. i mean, you go out -- look. at some point, he has to say, here's what i am going to do in a second term. here's joe biden. he's radical left. here's what they want to do. and, america, you may not love it all but you know my policies are going to get us back to normal faster than his. that's the simple framing of the race. and everything about the economy and regular life and whatever. it all has to be put in that box. and every day they don't put

this race that thin that box is day. and by the way, people are voting right now. they have limited time to make that case so i guess that's what i would do with the next debate. >> kirsten? >> yeah. i mean, i think that the plan, to the extent there was a plan, i agree with scott. i mean, i think it was to go in and try to rattle biden. but the thing is, with donald trump, you can't really have a plan unless there is a teleprompter, right? so, once the plan didn't work, he didn't correct for it. it wasn't -- he wasn't able, really, to rattle biden the way i think he thought he would be able to rattle him. and honestly, i don't even know how great of a strategy that is, in the first place. because even if biden had gotten rattled, i don't know. then, you just would have had two people kind of not acting that great. i don't know how that really helps trump. i think trump needs to be focused on the things that people care about. and i don't think the way -- i mean, i can't even really think of anything substantive that he

said, in terms of really, you know, defending his -- his record. i mean, he said some things that aren't -- aren't true about his record. we don't have the greatest economy in the history of the world or the country, obviously. so, you know, i think his time would be better spent doing that. and he was able to act like this when he ran the first time because he was the one who was running against the status quo. and he was the fighter. and he was, you know, kind of taking down all the status-kwqu people. but now, he is the status quo. so that strategy can't be the same strategy. >> i, also, want to play another exchange that -- that they had. i think we have it ready. let's take a look. >> the question is -- the question is -- would you shut up, man? >> who is on your list? >> gentlemen, i think we've ended this -- we have -- no. no. we have ended this segment. we're going to move onto the second segment.

>> that was really a productive segment, wasn't it? keep yapping, man. >> the people understand, joe. >> i don't even know what to make of it. i don't know if there is a question out of there. but i mean, it -- it -- do you see any changes in a second debate? i mean, obviously, it's up to the commission on presidential debates, which is this nonpartisan group that exists that they are the ones who organize these debates. i'm not even sure. i mean, do you -- do -- there is a lot of -- i've heard people talk about should mics be able to be cut off? that doesn't seem like a solution that would actually be, ever, done in a presidential debate. >> well, they've already settled on these rules and the next debates are going to be upon us, pretty quickly. so i'd imagine we are all going to be subject to similar experiences a couple of weeks from now, anderson. if there is a group of people -- there are a lot of people upset about tonight. but one group of people that, in my mind, should be very upset are down-ballot republican

candidates because you are looking at very, very competitive senate races in south carolina, in montana, in alaska. and anything that depresses turnout for republicans, which i'm going to suggest tonight might depress turnout in some precincts. to me, that's a very, very big, big impact of tonight that, probably, is not getting talked about enough. >> we are going to take a break. still ahead, daniel dale has a big-picture look at how president trump trampled on the facts in tonight's debate. back in a moment. our home was burned to the ground

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we're breaking down the first trump/biden debate, that included a slew of false statements by the president when the face-off wasn't veering off the rails totally. let's go back to cnn fact checker daniel dale. so daniel, what's your big takeaway from tonight? >> wolf, it's that this president is a serial liar who keeps serially lying. this was just so much dishonesty on -- on the biggest stage from the president of the united states. and, wolf, i had people, you know, tweeting me, texting me, being like daniel dale's probably on oxygen right now or taking a drink. how is he surviving this? the truth is, wolf, this is always what it's like with donald trump. this is what it's been like for five years. basically any unscripted event featuring donald trump will feature a huge quantity of false

claims and it's stuff big and little. i mean, we know that he stretches numbers. he'll make up that he got the michigan man of the year award. stuff that, you know, speaks to his character, his level of honesty, but isn't that important, honestly, to the american people's lives. but what we had tonight was really important deception on things like health care, on things like the pandemic, on what joe biden might do in office. i think a few things are especially notable about trump's dishonesty. one is the frequency. you hear, i hear, oh, people say all politicians lie and spin. this is so abnormal. what we heard from biden is a little stretching, sometimes he got numbers wrong, but he's at least a more conventional political spinner. trump is an unprecedented liar in the oval office. the number two thing that i think is notable is trump's imperviousness to fact checking. again, as i said early are on your show, this is stuff we have fact checked before.

this isn't stuff oh, he got confused in the moment. this is a deliberate strategy of disinformation, and i also think it's notable just the range of top innings that he is inaccurate on. so, you know, it's basically everything. there are some topics where he's more dishonest than others, for example, almost everything he says about mail-in voting is dishonest, but you'd be hard-pressed to find literally any subject on which the american people can right now and over the last five years have been able to take donald trump at his word. this has been a truth crisis. this is what we've been doing with and we continue to deal with it during this campaign. >> excellent work, daniel. thank you very much for all the important fact checking. back to you guys. >> poor dan. he needs extra pay for all that fact checking. one thing that i think is a very important story and it's hard to ignore it, is the fact that donald trump, president trump, is really at war with the election itself. >> yeah. >> with the very concept of democracy. he is spreading all sorts of

falsehoods, as daniel just pointed out, about vote by mail, which as joe biden correctly pointed out was in five states for roughly a decade and now lots more states are doing it because of the pandemic. and he's making it very clear that if he loses, he is gonna challenge the ballots of the american people. >> yeah, i mean, if you ask me, that probably should have been how the debate started. i mean, this is the foundation of democracy, and it kind of came -- was snuck in toward the end and i was really disappointing to see that the president wasn't pushed to give firm answers on a couple of basic questions. will he agree to peacefully transfer power if he loses? he did not answer the question and pivoted to his claims about spying during the transition, et cetera. and then he also wouldn't say is that he would ask his supporters to remain calm while the ballots are being counted. >> quite the opposite. >> he said the opposite. so, i mean, really, these are big deals in this election, in this democracy.

it kind of got short shrift and the president once again refuses to stand up for these basic ideals. >> and he's been doing this now for a while. this is also, according to pollsters, turning voters off. >> and, look, the thing is is that he's turning some of his own voters off. >> right. >> again and again. in places where they are already voting. north carolina, for example. and, you know, privately, i'm sure you both have heard this also from republicans, they're tearing their hair out because when the president says over and over again, as he has been now for months, that the way to vote that many of these states are doing and that his own party is helping and encouraging their voters to do, mail-in -- >> his own campaign. >> absentee -- his own campaign. it's hard to do it when the guy at the top of the ticket is saying, you know what? it's fraudulent. >> and it's hard to -- i said this early? i'ier and i'll just it again before we say good-bye, it's hard to escape the conclusion of anything other

than president trump has come to the realization that he's not going to win and he wants to drag the rest of the united states down with him. wolf? wolf's not there. we're gonna take a break and we're gonna be back next week for cnn's live coverage of the vice presidential debate. on wednesday, october 7th. chris cuomo and don lemon right now are going to pick up our coverage of tonight a's debate after this quick break. stay with us.

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and here we go, the coverage you all have been waiting for. we know you stayed up late just to watch me, don lemon, and that guy, christopher cuomo. did i say your name right? >> it works. i think we should call the show tonight "men with pants." >> because this is the first time we've actually worn pants in six months. >> one of the upsides of the pandemic is we've only had to worry about our tops. now we've got a lot to worry about. >> jeans and sweat pants and shorts. >> fishing shorts for me. >> it's official now. this is official. it's the first debate. and, yeah, we have a lot to worry about. this is our special coverage of the presidential debate. 34 days to go until election day. can you believe it? 34 days. but, chris, what we saw tonight was not normal. this was not normal in the course of a presidential debate. >> one other