about the outcome, that turns the focus more inward and makes it more dangerous world for the united states allies. i'm not trying to overplay this at all, but the united states is a country that the rest of europe and many other democracies around the world look to set the standard. we live in an era of rising autocrats and rising populists. this is not a good trend. >> and that is not hyperbole. thank you. i appreciate that. i'm so glad we had this time here together. >> born in the usa. they are songs of desperation and troubles, and people see them as anthems of patriotism. why? because you can give a message that things are bad, that we live in a place that is capable of greatness. we didn't see it tonight. not from biden, not enough and certainly not from the president because that's not his message. imagine how people would respond to someone who's telling them

what's bad but also reminding us about how we can be great. that's my regret that we are not well served. >> i'm don lemon. >> thank you for watching. our coverage continues. good evening from the health education campus of case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic. i'm chris wallace of fox news, and i welcome you to the first of the 2020 presidential debates. between president donald j. trump and former vice president

joe biden. this debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. the commission has designed the format, six roughly 15 minute segments with two minute answers from each candidate to the first question, then open discussion for the rest of each segment. both campaigns have agreed to these rules. for the record, i decided the topics and the questions in each topic. i can assure you none of the questions has been shared with the commission or the two candidates. this debate is being conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the cleveland clinic, which is serving as the health security adviser to the commission for all four debates. as a precaution, both campaigns have agreed the candidates will not shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. the audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent. no cheers, no boos or other

interruptions so we and more importantly you can focus on what the candidates have to say. no noise except right now as we welcome the republican nominee, president trump and the democratic nominee, vice president biden. [ applause ] >> how are you doing? >> good. how are you? >> i'm well. >> gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night. let's get going. our first subject is the supreme court. president trump, you nominated amy coney barrett over the weekend to succeed the late ruth bader ginsburg on the court. you say the constitution is clear about your obligation and the senate's to consider a nominee to the court.

vice president biden, you say that this is an effort by the president and republicans to jam through an appointment in what you call an abuse of power. my first question to both of you tonight. why are you right in the argument you make, and your opponent wrong. and where do you think a justice barrett would take the court. president trump in this first segment, you go first, two minutes. >> i will tell you very simply, we won the election. elections have consequences. we have the senate, we have the white house and we have a phenomenal nominee, respected by all, top top academic. good in every way. good in every way. in fact, some of her biggest endorsers are very liberal people, from notre dame and other places. i think she's going to be fantastic. we have plenty of time, even if

we did it after the election it 168, i have a lot of time after the election, as you know. i think she will be outstanding, she's going to be as good as anybody that has served on that court. we really feel that. we have a professor at notre dame, highly respected by all, said she's the single greatest student he's ever had. he's been a professor for a long time at a great school. and we just -- we won the election, and, therefore, we have the right to choose her and very few people knowingly would say otherwise. and by the way, the democrats, they wouldn't even think about not doing it. the only difference is, they'd try to do it faster. there's no way they would give it up. they had merit garland but the problem is, they didn't have the election, and they were stopped. and probably that would happen in reverse also. definitely would happen in reverse. >> president trump, thank you. same question to you, vice president biden, have you two minutes. >> first of all, thank you for doing this. and i'm looking forward to this, mr. president. >> thank you, joe. >> the american people have a

right to have a say in who the supreme court nominee is, and that say occurs when they vote for a united states senator and when they vote for the president of the united states. they're not going to get that chance now, because we're in the middle of an election already. election has already started. tens of thousands of people have already voted. the thing that should happen is, we should wait. we should wait and see what the outcome of this election is. that's the only way the american people get to express their view is by who they elect as president and who they elect as vice president. now, what's at stake here is the president has made it clear he wants to get rid of the affordable care act. he's been running on that, he ran on that, and he's been

governing on that. he's in the supreme court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act which will strip 20 million people from having insurance, health insurance now if they -- if it goes to the court. and the justice -- and i have nothing -- i'm not opposed to the justice, she seems like a very fine person, but she's written before she went on the bench, which is her right, that she thinks the affordable care act is not constitutional. the other thing that's on the court -- and if it's struck down, what happens? women's rights are fundamentally changed. once again, a woman could be held to pay more money because she has a pre-existing condition of pregnancy. they're able to charge a woman more for the same exact procedure a man gets. and that ended when we in fact passed the afford an care act. and there's 100 million people that have pre-existing conditions and they'll be taken away as well, the pre-existing

conditions, insurance companies are going to love this, it's just not appropriate to do this before this election. if he wins the election and the senate is democrat -- oar republican, then he goes forward. if not, we should wait until february. >> there aren't 100 million people with pre-existing conditions. as far as the say is concerned, the people already had their say, they -- justice ginsburg said very powerfully, at some point ten years ago or so, she said, a president and the senate is elected for a period of time, but a president's elected for four years. we're not elected for three years, i'm not elected for three years. we have the senate, we have a president -- >> you're elected to -- >> during that period of time, we have an opening. i'm not elected for three years, i'm elected for four years. >> and the majority -- >> the hundred million people is totally wrong. i don't know where you got that number. the bigger problem that you have is you're going to extinguish 180 million people with their private health care. >> that's simply not true. >> well, you're going to socialist -- >> that's -- >> we're now into open discussion -- open discussion yes, i agree. >> number one, he knows that

what i proposed. what i proposed is that we expand obamacare, and we increase it, we do not wipe any -- one of the big debates we had with 23 of my colleagues trying to win the nomination that i worn, were saying that biden wanted to allow people to have private insurance still. they can, they do. they will under my proposal. >> that's what you said, and that's not what your party has said. >> that's not -- >> your party wants to go socialist medicine. >> the party is me, right now, i am the democratic party. >> they're going to -- >> i am the democratic party right now. the platform -- >> not according to harris. >> is what i in fact approved of. what i approved of. now, here's the deal, the deal is, that it's going to wipe out pre-existing conditions -- and by the way, the 200,000 people that have died on his watch, how many of those have survived? there's 7 million people that have contracted covid. what does it mean for them going-forward if you strike down the affordable care act.

>> joe, you've had 308,000 military people dying because you couldn't provide them proper health care in the military. don't tell me -- >> i'm happy to talk about -- >> if you were here it wouldn't be 200,000 it would be 2 million people because you were very late on the draw. you didn't want me to ban china, which was heavily infected. you didn't want me to ban europe. >> okay, mr. president -- >> you would have been much later. >> mr. president. >> you're not going to -- >> we're going to talk about covid in the next segment, but go ahead. >> let me finish, the point is, the president is also opposed to roe v. wade, that's on the ballot as well in the court, that's at stake right now. >> you don't know it's on the ballot. why is it on the ballot. >> because you said -- >> it's note on the ballot. >> it's on the ballot in the court. >> i don't think so, there's nothing happening there. >> and you don't know her view on roe v. wade. you don't know her view.

>> all right. let's talk -- we have a lot to unpack here, gentlemen. we have a lot of time. on health care, and then we'll come back to roe v. wade. mr. president, the supreme court will hear a case a week after the election in which the trump add ming station along with 18 state attorneys general are seeking to overturn obamacare. >> that's right. >> to end obamacare. >> because we want to give good health care. >> if i may ask my question, sir. >> good health care. >> over the last four years you have promised to repeal and replace obamacare, you have never come up with a plan -- a comprehensive plan. >> listen -- >> to replace obamacare. >> of course i have.

>> i got rid of the individual mandate. excuse me. i got rid of the individual mandate -- >> that is -- >> that is absolutely a big thing. >> i would ask you, sir -- >> chris, that was the worst part of the obamacare. >> let me -- >> i'll ask joe. the individual mandate was the most unpopular portion of the act. >> you have never come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare and just this last thursday you signed a largely symbolic executive order to protect people with pre-existing conditions five days before this debate. so my question, sir, is, what is the trump health care plan. >> first of all, i guess i'm debating you, not him, i'm not surprised. let me just tell you something. there's nothing symbolic, i'm cutting drug prices, i'm going with favored nations which no president has the courage to do, because you're going against big pharma. drug prices will be coming down 80 or 90%. you could have done it in your 47 year period in government.

but you didn't do it. nobody's done it. >> all of things we have done. >> he's not -- >> insulin is going -- it was destroying families, destroying people, i'm getting it for so cheap, it's like water, you want to know the truth. so cheap, take a look at all of the drugs that what we're doing, prescription drug prices, we're going to allow our governors now to go to other countries -- >> okay, when in fact -- >> this is not open discussion. >> this is big stuff. >> sir, you'll be happy, i'm about to pick up on one of your points to ask the vice president. which is he points out you would like to add a public option to obamacare. >> yes. >> and the argument that he makes, and other republicans make, is that that is going to end private insurance. >> it is not. >> i'm asking the question. >> i'm sorry. >> that's not what your party says, by the way. >> it will end private insurance and create a government takeover of health care.

>> it's only for those people that are so poor, they qualify for medicaid, they can get that free in most states except for governors who wants to deny it. anyone who qualifies for medicaid would automatically be enrolled in the public option. the vast majority of the american people would still not be in that option, number one. >> joe, you agreed with bernie sanders who is far left, the manifesto i called it. >> i'm not going to listen to him. the fact of the matter is i beat bernie sanders. >> not by much. >> i'm standing here facing you. >> if he would have left two days early, you would have lost every primary on super tuesday. >> i got very lucky, i'm going toe get very lucky tonight as well. >> why? with what? >> here's the deal, the fact is, that everything he's saying so far is simply a lie. i'm not here to call out his lies, everybody knows he's a liar.

>> joe -- >> you graduated last in your class, not first in your class. >> mr. president, can you let him finish, sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> you'd be surprised. >> you pick the wrong guy, the wrong night at the wrong time. >> listen, you agreed with bernie sanders. >> let him -- >> there is no manifesto number one. number two. >> you just lost the left. >> number two. >> you just lost the left. you agreed with bernie sanders on a plan -- >> folks do you have any idea what this clown's doing? >> mr. president. >> socialized medicine. >> mr. president. >> i tell you what, he is not for any help for people needing health care. because his -- >> who is, bernie? >> because he in fact already has cost 10 million people their health care that they had from their employers because of his recession. number one. number two. >> oh, yeah. >> there are 20 million people getting health care through obamacare now that he wants to take it away, he won't ever look you in the eye and say that's

what he wants to do, take it away. >> no, i want to give them better health care at a much better price. obamacare is not good. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> i already fixed it. obama care as you might know, but don't -- >> gentlemen, you realize if you're both speaking at the same time -- let the president -- >> obamacare is no good. we made it better, and i had a choice to make very early on, we took away the individual mandate, we guaranteed pre-existing conditions. but took away the individual mandate. >> not true. >> yes it is, that's the way it is. and that destroyed. they shouldn't even call it obamacare. i had a choice to make, do i let my people run it really well or badly. if i run it badly, they'll blame him. but they'll blame me, but more importantly, i want to help people. you have to run it so well. i just had a meeting with them. they said the problem is no matter how well you run obamacare, it's a disaster. it's too expensive. premiums are too high. it doesn't work.

>> we -- >> we do have to get rid of it and get something cheaper. >> i have to give you roughly equal time. please let the vice president talk. >> good. >> he has no plan for health care. >> of course we do. >> please. >> he sends out wishful thinking. he has executive orders that have no power. he hasn't lowered drug costs for anybody. he's been promising the health care plan since he got elected. he has none. like almost everything else he talks about, he does not have a plan. he doesn't have a plan. and the fact is, this man doesn't know what he's talking about. >> all right, i have one final question for you. >> sure. >> mr. vice president. if senate republicans -- we were talking originally about the supreme court here. if senate republicans go ahead and confirm justice barrett, there has been talk about ending the filibuster or even packing the court, adding to the nine justices there, you call this a

distraction by the president. but in fact it wasn't brought up by the president, it was brought up by some of your democratic colleagues in the congress -- >> i'm saying. >> my question to you is, you have refused in the past to talk about it, are you willing to tell the american people tonight whether or not you will support ending the filibuster or packing the court -- >> whatever position i take on that, that will be the issue. the issue is, the american people should speak. you should go out and vote. you're voting now. vote and let your senators know how you -- >> are you going to pack the court? >> let -- vote now. >> are you goingou let people know. i'm not going to answer the question. >> why won't you answer that question. >> the question is -- >> you want radical left -- >> am you shut up, man. >> who is on your list. who is on your list. >> gentlemen, i think we have -- >> you're not going to give a list.

>> we have ended the segment. >> that was a productive segment, wasn't it. keep yapping, man. >> the people understand, joe. 47 years you've done nothing. >> all right. >> the second subject is covid-19, which is a serious subject, so let's try to be serious about it. we've had more than 7 million cases of coronavirus in the united states, more than 200,000 people have died. even after we produce a vaccine, experts say it could be months or years before we come back to anything approaching normal. my question for both of you is, based on what you have said and done so far, and what you have said you would do starting in 2021, why should the american people trust you more than your opponent to deal with this public health crisis going forehead in this case, the question goes to you first, sir, two minutes uninterrupted. >> good luck. 200,000 dead. as you said, over 7 million

infected in the united states. we in fact have 5% -- 4% of the world's population, 20% of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting covid. in addition to that, about -- between 750 and 1,000 people a day are dying. when he was presented with that number, he said, it is what it is. it is what it is, because you are who you are. that's why it is. the president has no plan. he has not laid out anything. he knew all the way back in february how serious this crisis was, he knew it was a deadly disease. what did he do? he's on tape acknowledging he knew it, he said he didn't tell us or give people a warning of it, because he didn't want to panic the american people. you don't panic, he panicked. in addition to that. what did he do? he went in and he -- we were

insisting the people we had on the ground in china should be able to go to wuhan and determine for themselves how dangerous this was. he did not even ask xi to do that. he told us what a great job xi was doing, we owe him a debt of gratitude for being so transparent with us. what did he do then? he then did nothing -- he waited and waited and waited, he still doesn't have a plan. >> wrong. >> i laid out back in march -- >> sir, it's his two minutes. >> so wrong. >> i laid out again in july what we should be doing. we should be providing all the protective gear possible. the money the house has passed in order to be able to go out and get people the help they need to keep their businesses open. open schools would cost a lot of money. you should get out of your bunker and get out of the sand trap and your golf course and go in your oval office and bring together the democrats and republicans and fund what needs to be done now to save lives. >> so if we would have listened to you. >> you have two minutes, sir. >> if we would have listened to you the country would have been left wide open.

millions of people would have died, not 200,000. and one person is too much. it's china's fault. it should not have happened. they stopped it from going in. when you talk about numbers you don't know how many people died in china, you don't know how many people died in russia, you don't know how many people died in india. they don't exactly give you a straight count. just so you understand. i closed it, and you said he's xenophobic. you don't believe we should have closed the country. >> wait a minute -- >> it's his two minutes. >> if it was terrible, you would have closed it for another two months. by my doing it early, dr. fauci said, president trump saved thousands of lives. many of your democratic governors said president trump did a phenomenal job. oh, really, go take a look. your governor said i did a phenomenal job, most of them said that. in fact, people that would not

be necessarily on my side said that. president trump did a phenomenal job. we did, we got the gowns, we got the masks, we made the ventilators. you wouldn't have made the ventilators. and now we're weeks away from a vaccine. we're doing therapeutics already. far fewer people are dying. we've done a great job. the only thing i haven't done a good job -- and that's because of the fake news. no matter what you say to them, they give you bad press on it. they give you good press, they give me bad press. because that's the way it is unfortunately. but let me just tell you something. i don't care, i've gotten used to it. but i'll tell you, joe, you could have never done the job we did. you don't have it in your blood. >> i know how to do the job, i know how to get the job done. >> you didn't do very well on swine flu. h1n1 you were a disaster. >> 14,000 people died not 200,000. >> it was a very -- >> sir, you -- >> there were no -- >> you made a point, let him answer. >> there's no one -- we didn't shut down the economy. this is his economy that he's shut down.

the reason it's shut down is because, look, you folks at home, how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of covid? how many of you are in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and you couldn't even speak to them, you had to have a nurse holding the phone up so you could say good-bye. >> you would have lost far more people. you would have been -- >> and by the way, his own cdc director says, we could lose as many as another 200,000 people between now and the end of the year. and he said if we just wear a mask we can save half those numbers, just a mask. and in terms of the whole notion of a vaccine. we're for a vaccine, but i don't trust him at all, nor do you, i know you don't. what we trust is the scientists. we trust dr. fauci. >> you don't trust johnson and johnson or pfizer? >> and by the way -- >> let me move on to questions about the future. both of you have touched on two of the questions i'm going to

ask. focusing on the future first. president trump, you have repeatedly either contradicted or been at odds with some of your government's own top scientists, the week before last, the head of the cdc dr. redfield said it would be summer before the vaccine would become generally available to the public. you said that he was confused and mistaken, those were your two words. >> yeah. >> but the head of your operation warp speed has said the same thing. are they both wrong? >> i've spoken to the communities and we can have it sooner. people like this would rather make it political than save lives. i've spoken to pfizer, i've spoken to all the people you have to speak to. we have great -- moderna and johnson & johnson and others. it's become very political, because the left or -- >> so you're suggesting the head of your operation warp speed dr. --

>> i disagree with him. he said it could be there, but it could be much sooner. >> he talked about the summer before it's generally available. >> he said it's a possibility that we'll have the answer before november 1st. it could also be after that. >> it's not generally available. >> we're going to deliver it right away, logistically, we have them set up. they deliver soldiers, and they can do 200,000 a day. >> this is the same man who told you by easter this would be gone away. by the warm weather it would be gone, miraculous, it's like a miracle. and by the way maybe you could inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of it. >> that was said sarcastically, you know that. >> here's the deal, this man is talking about a vaccine. every serious company is talking about maybe having a vaccine done by the end of the year. but the distribution of that

vaccine will not occur until sometime the beginning or middle of next year, to get it out. if we get the vaccine. and pray god we will. pray god we will. >> mr. vice president, i want to pick up on this question. you say the public can trust the scientists, but they can't trust president trump. in fact you said that again tonight. your running mate, senator harris goes further, saying the public health experts, quote, will be muzzled, will be suppressed. given the fact that polls already show that people are concerned about the vaccine and are reluctant to take it, are you and your running mate senator harris contributing to that fear? >> no more than the question you just asked him. you pointed out, he puts pressure and disagrees with his own scientists. >> you're saying, senator harris is saying you can't trust the scientists. >> you can trust the scientists. >> the public health experts will be muzzled, will be suppressed. >> that's what he's going to try

to do. there's thousands of scientists out there like here at this great hospital. >> i want to move on to another subject. >> those states. >> i want to move on to another subject. >> those states are not doing well that are shut down. and he hasn't acknowledged how dangerous this would be back in february, and he didn't even tell you. he's on record as saying it. he panicked or just looked alt the stock market, one of the two because guess what, a lot of people die and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter, a lot quicker. >> mr. president? >> did you use the word smart? so you said you went to delaware state, but you forgot the name of your college. you didn't go to delaware state. you graduated either the lowest or almost lowest in your class. don't ever use the word smart

with me. don't ever use that word. >> oh, give me a break. >> 47 years you've done nothing. let me just tell you something, joe. if you would have had the charge of what i was put through, i had to close the greatest economy in the history of our country, and by the way it's being built again. >> we're going to the economy in the next segment, sir. when it comes to how the virus has been handled so far the two of you have taken very different approaches, and this is going to affect how the virus is handled going forward by whichever of you ends up becoming the next president. i want to quickly go several of those. re-openings. vice president biden, you have bip much more reluctant than president trump about reopening the economy and schools. why sir? >> because he doesn't have a plan. if i were running i'd know what the plan is. you've got to provide these businesses the ability to have the money to reopen with the ppe

as well as with the sanitation they need. will he just shush for a min isn't. >> tell it to nancy pelosi or schumer and chuck. >> nancy pelosi and schumer, they have a plan. he won't even meet with them. the republicans won't meet with them in the senate. and he sits on his golf course and literally think about it -- >> you probably play more than i do, joe. >> what about re-openings and -- >> well, he wants to shutdown this concountry, and i want to keep it open. let me shut you down for a second, joe, just for one second. we want to -- he wants to shutdown the country. we just went through it. we had to because we didn't know anything about the disease. now we found that elderly people with heart problems and diabetes and different problems where very, very vulnerable. we learned a lot. young children aren't. even younger people aren't. we learned a lot, but he wants to shut it down. more people will be heard by

continuing -- if you look at pennsylvania, certain states that will be shutdown, one of the reasons they shutdown is because they want to keep it shutdown until after the election because it's a political -- >> gentlemen, i want to move onto a another subject. >> those states not doing well that are shutdown. >> mr. president, you have begun to increasingly question the etiveness of masks as a disease preventer. and in fact recently you have cited the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates. >> no, i think the masks are okay. you have to understand, i have a mask right here, i put a mask on when i think i need it. tonight as an example, everybody's had a test and you've had social distancing and all of the things that you have to. but i wear masks when needed. i wear a mask. i don't have -- i don't wear a mask like him. every time you see him he's got

a mask. he could be speaking 200 feet away from it, and he shows up with the biggest mask i've seen. >> vice president biden, go ahead, sir. >> the way to open businesses is to give them the wherewithal to be able to reopen. >> i was asking you about masks. >> masks make a big difference. his own head of the cdc just if everybody wore masks and social distanced between now and january we'd probably save up to 100,000 lives. it matters. it matters. >> and they've also said the opposite. >> no serious person said the opposite. >> dr. fauci. dr. fauci said the opposite. he said very strongly. >> we have a minute left in this segment. >> he said masks are not good. then he changed his mind and said masks are good. >> your different approaches have affected the way you've campaigned. president trump, you're holding large rallies with crowds packed together, thousands of people >> outside. >> yes, agreed.

vice president biden you are holding much smaller events. >> because nobody will show up. it's true, nobody shows up to his rallies. >> in any case, why are you holding the big rallies, why are you not? you go first, sir. >> because people want to hear what i have to say. >> are you not worried about spreading disease? >> and i'll have 25,000, 35,000 people show up at airports. >> are you not worried about -- >> so far, we've had no problem. it's outside, according to the experts, it's a big difference. we do them outside. we have tremendous crowds as you see on 24 hours notice. >> by the way, did you see one of the last big rallies he had. a reporter came up to him to ask him a question. he said, no, no, no, stand back, put on a mask, have you been tested. i'm way far away from those other people. that's what he said, i can't -- i'm going to be okay.

he's not worried about you. he's not worried about the people out there breathing on one another. >> we've had no negative effect. >> we've had no negative effect. we've had 35,000, 40,000 people at these rallies. >> i want to finish up -- >> yes, i would. he's been irresponsible in the way he's handled social distancing and people wearing masks, basically encouraging them not to. >> if you can get the crowds you would do the same thing. but nobody cares. nobody cares. >> gentlemen, can we move on to the economy? >> yes. the economy i think it's fair to say is recovering faster than expected from the shutdown. >> much faster. >> in the second quarter. the unemployment rate fell 8.4% last month. the hit to growth, which is going to be there, is not going to be nearly as big as they had expected. president trump, you say we are in a v-shaped recovery. vice president biden, you say it's more of a k shape.

what difference does that mean to the american people in terms of the economy? president trump in this segment you go first. >> we built the greatest economy in history. we close it down because of the china plague. when the plague came in, we close it down, which was very hard psychologically to do. he didn't think we should close it down, and he was wrong. again, 2 million people would be dead now instead of still 204,000 people is too much. one person is too much. should have never happened from china. but what happened is we closed it down, and now we're reopening, and we're doing record business. we had 10.4 million people in a four-month period that we've put back into the work force. that's a record the likes of which nobody's ever seen before. and he wants to close down the -- he will shut it down again. he will destroy this country. you know, a lot of people between drugs and alcohol and depression, when you saw shutting it down you take a look what's happening at some of your democratic run states where they have these tough shutdowns, and i'm telling you it's because

they don't want to open it. one of them came out last week, you saw that we're going to open november 9th. why november 9th because it's after the election. they can social distance, wash their hands, wear masks, but they've got to open these states up. when you look at north carolina -- and these governors are under siege. pennsylvania, michigan and a couple of others -- you've got to open these states up. it's not fair. you're talking about almost it's like being in prison. and you look at what's going on with divorce. look at what's going on with alcoholism and drugs. it's a very, very sad thing. and he'll close down the whole country. this guy will close down the whole country and destroy our country. our country is coming back incredibly well, setting records as it does. we don't need somebody to come in and say let's shut it down. >> your two minutes, sir. we're now moved to you. the president says it's a

v-shaped recovery. you say it's a k-shaped recovery. what's the difference? >> the difference is millionaires and billionaires like him in the middle of a covc covid crisis have done very well. billionaires have made another $300 billion because of his tax proposal, and he only focused on the market. but you folks at home, you folks living in scranton and claymont and all the small towns and working class towns in america, how are you doing? this guy paid -- >> i understand. you've agreed to the 2 minutes so please let him have it. >> can i get my time back? the fact is he has in fact worked on this in a way he's going to be the first president of the united states to leave office and leave fewer jobs in his administration than when he became president. fewer jobs than when he became president. first one in american history. secondly, the people who have lost their jobs are those people

who have been on the front lines, those people who have been saving our lives, those people who have been out there dying, people who have been putting themselves in the way to make sure we could all try to make it. and the idea that he is insisting that we go forward and open when you have almost half the states in america with a significant increase in covid deaths and covid cases in the united states of america, and he wants to open it up more. why's he want to open it up? why doesn't he cake care of the american -- you can't fix the economy until you fix the covid crisis. and he has no intention of doing anything to make it better for you all at home in terms of your health and safety. schools. why aren't schools open? because it costs a lot of money to open them safely. you know, his administration was going to give the teachers and school students masks. then they decided, no, couldn't do that because it's not a national emergency. not a national emergency. they've done nothing to help small businesses, nothing. they're closing.

one in six is now gone. he ought to get on the job and take care of the needs of the american people so we can open safely. >> all right, your time is up, sir. you both got two minutes, sir. >> excuse me, he made a statement. they don't want their states shutdown. i look at new york, it's so sad what's happening in new york. it's almost like a ghost town, and i'm not sure it can ever recover what they've done in new york. people want their places open. they want to get back to their lives. i'm the one that brought back football. by the way, i brought back big 10 football. it was me and i'm very happy to do it, and people of ohio are very proud of me. >> gentlemen, i want to get to your economic plans going forward in a moment, but first, mr. president, as you well know there's a new report that in

2016, the year you were elected president and 2017, your first year as president, that you paid $750 a year in federal income tax each of those years. i know that you pay a lot of other taxes, but i'm asking you the specific question. is it true you pay $750 in federal income taxes each of those two years? >> i've paid millions of dollars in taxes. millions of dollars of income tax. and i'll just tell you, there was a story in one of the papers. i paid $38 million one year. i paid daeks. >> show us your tax returns. >> i paid $27 million one year. you'll see when it's finished. go to the board of elections. there's an 118-page or so report that says everything i have. i'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good -- >> i'm asking you a specific

question which -- >> let me tell you. >> i understand all that. >> no, mr. president, i'm asking you a question. will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017? >> millions of dollars. >> you paid millions of dollars, so not $750. >> and you'll get to see it. >> when? >> chris, let me just tell you something it was the tax laws -- i don't want to pay tax. before i came here i was a private developer. i was private business people. like every other private person unless they're stupid they go through the laws, and that's what it is. he passed a tax bill that gave us all these privileges for depreciationation and for tax credits. we built a building and we get tax credits like the hotel on pennsylvania, which by the way was given to me by the obama administration if you can believe that. now, the man got fired right after that happened -- >> vice president biden, you want to respond?

>> yeah, do want to respond. look, the tax code that made him -- put him in a position that he pays less tax than a schoolteacher than on the money a schoolteacher makes is because he says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tax code. and he does take advantage of the tax code. that's why i'm going to eliminate the trump tax cuts. we're going to emeliminate those taxes and make sure we invest in the people who in fact need the help. people out there need help. >> why didn't you do it in the last 25 years? >> because you are president screwing things up -- you're the worst president america has ever had. come on. >> let me just say, joe. i've done more than you've done in 47 years, joe. we've done things you've never even thought of doing including fixing the broken military that you gave me. including of talking about your vets. >> mr. president, i'd like to ask you about your plans going

forward because, mr. vice president, your economic plan if you were to be elected president focuses a lot on big government, big taxes, big spending. i want to focus first on the taxes. you propose more than $4 trillion over a decade in new taxes on individuals that making more than $400,000 a year and on corporations. president trump says that kind of an increase in taxes is going to hurt the economy as it's just coming out of a recession. >> well, just take a look at the analysis done by wall street firms. it points out that my economic plan would create 7 million more jobs than his in 4 years, number one. and number two, it would create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth because it would be about buying american. that we're going to make this federal government spend $600 billion a year on everything from ships to steel to buildings and the like. and under my proposal we're

going to make sure that every penny of that has to be made by a company -- >> respectfully, sir, i'm talking about taxes -- >> by the way, i'm going to eliminate significant -- i'm going to make the corporate tax 28%. it shouldn't be 24%. you have 91 companies in the fortune 500 who don't pay a single penny in tax making billions of dollars. >> why didn't you do it when you were vice president with president obama? >> mr. president, let me pick up on that. you would continue your free market approach, lower taxes, deregulation, correct? >> not lower tax on the american people. >> but in the obamas -- you talk about the economy booming. it turns out in obama's final three years as president more jobs were created, a million and

a half more jobs than in the first three years of your presidency. >> they had the slowest recovery since -- economic recovery since 1929. it was the slowest recovery. also they took over something that was down here. all you had to do is turn on the lights and you pick up a lot, but they had the slowest economic recovery since 1929. let me tell you about the stock market. when the stock market goes up that means jobs. it also means 401ks. if you ever became president with your idea, you want to terminate my tax -- i'll tell you what you'll lose haf of the companies that have poured in here will leave, and they'll leave for other places. and you will have a depression the likes of which you've never seen. >> look, we inherited the worst recession short of a depression in american history. i was asked to bring it back. we were able to have an economic recovery that created the jobs you're talking about. we handed him a booming economy. he blew it.

>> it wasn't booming. it was the weakest recovery since 1929. >> wait. is it fair to say he blew it when there was record low unemployment before covid? >> because what he did even before covid, manufacturing went in the hole. manufacturing went in the hole. number one. number two -- >> i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothing. they gave up on manufacturing. >> we brought back -- i was asked to bring back chrysler and general motors. we brought them back right here in the state of ohio and michigan. he blew it. they're gone. he blew it. >> ohio had the best year it's ever had last year. michigan had the best year they've ever had -- >> that is not true. >> many car companies came in

and went from michigan and went to ohio. >> so you take a look at what he's actually done. he's done very little. his trade deals are the same way. he talks about these great trade deals, talks about the art of the deal. china's perfected the art of the steal. we have the largest deficit than ever before. >> china ain't your lunch, joe. and no wonder your son goes in and he takes out billions of dollars, billions of dollars to manage. he makes millions of dollars. >> simply not true. >> and just out of curiosity, the mayor of moskow wife gave your son $3 million. what did he do to deserve it? what did he do to deserve -- >> none of that is true. >> mr. president, please. >> totally discredited.

>> mr. president? >> it is not true. >> mr. president, it's an open discussion, please. >> no, it's a fact. >> you have raised an issue. let the vice president answer. >> totally discredited. >> $183,000 a month with no experience in energy? >> my son did nothing wrong at burisma. >> mr. president, let him answer. >> he doesn't want to let me answer because he knows i have the truth. his position has been totally discredited -- >> by who? by the media. >> by the media, our allies, by everyone has discredit. even the people who testified under oath -- >> i'm listening to you. >> he got $3.5 million in moskow. >> -- testified under oath in his administration said i did my

job and did it very well. i'll give you the list of the people -- you're already fired most of them because they did a good job. >> wait a minute, you get the final word -- >> well, it's hard to get any word in with this clown -- excuse me me this -- >> why did he deserve $3.5 million from moskow? >> here's the deal. we want to talk about families and ethics, i don't want to do that. his family we could talk about all night. >> this is not about my famole or his family. it's about your family and the american people. he doesn't want to talk about what you need you -- the american people, it's about you.

>> we're moving on. >> can i be honest, it's a -- >> the answer to the question is no. >> ukraine with a billion dollars -- >> stop. gentlemen, i hate to raise my voice but this seems i'm debate wg the two of you. we have six segments. we've ended that segment. in that segment you're each going to have two interrupted moments. in those two uninterrupted minutes, mr. president, you can say anything you want. i'm going to ask a question about race, but if you want to say anything else go ahead. i think the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. i'm appealing to you, sir, to do that. >> well, and him, too. >> frankly, you've been doing more interrupting --

>> he's done plenty. >> less than you have. please continue on. the issue of race. vice president biden, you say that president trump's response to the violence in charlottesville three years ago when he talked about very fine people on both sides is what directly led you to launch this run for president. >> oh, yeah, sure. >> president trump, you have often said that you believe you have done more for black americans than any president with a possible exception of abraham lincoln. my question for the two of you is why should voters trust you rather than your opponent to deal with the race issues facing this country over the next 4 years? vice president biden, you go first. >> it's about equity and equality. it's about decency. it's about the constitution. and we have never walked away from trying to acquire equity for everyone, equality for the

whole of america. we've never accomplished it. but we've never walked away from it like he has done. it is true the reason i got in the race those people, close your eyes, remember what those people looked like coming out of the fields carrying torches, their veins bulging and just spewing bile and a young lady got killed. and when asked the president said there are very fine people on both sides. no president has ever said anything like that. second point i'd make to you is that when floyd was killed -- when mr. floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the white house. kid he do? he came out of his bunker, had the military use tear gas on them so he could walk across to a church and hold up a bible. and then what happened after that? the bishop of that very church said that it was a disgrace. the general who was with him said all he ever wants to do is divide people, not unite people at all.

this is president who has used everything as a dog whistle to try to generate racist hatred, racist division. this is man who in fact you talk about helping african-americans -- 1 in 1,000 african-americans has been killed because of the coronavirus. and if he doesn't do something quickly by the end of the year 1 in 500 will have been killed. 1 in 500 african-americans. this man -- this man is the savior of african-americans? this man cares at all? this man's done virtually nothing. look, the fact is that you have to look at what he talks about. you have to look at what he did. and what he did has been disastrous for the african-american community. >> president trump, you have 2 minutes. why should americans trust you over your opponent to deal with racism? >> a crime bill 1994 where you call them super predators, african-americans the super predators. and they've never forgotten it.

so you did that and they call you super predator, and i'm letting people out of jail now that you have treated the african-american population community -- you have treated the black community about as bad as anybody in this country. you did the 19 -- and that's why if you look at the polls i'm doing better than any republican has done in a long time because they saw what you did. you looked back at your testimony over the years, you've called them a lot worse than that. as far as the church is concerned and the generals are concerned, we just got the support of 250 military leaders and generals, total support. law enforcement, almost every law enforcement group in the united states. i have florida. i have texas. i have ohio. i have, excuse me, portland. the sheriff just came out today, and he said i support president trump. i don't think you have any law enforcement. you can't even say the word law enforcement because if you say

those words you're going to lose all of your radical left supporters. and why aren't you saying those words, joe? why aren't you saying the words law enforcement because you know what if they called us in portland, we would put out that fire in half an hour. but they won't do it because they're run by radical left democrats. if you look at chicago. if you look at anyplace you want to look, seattle, they heard we were coming in the following day and they put up their hands and we got back seattle. minneapolis, we got it back, joe, because we believe in law and order. but you don't. the top ten cities and just about the top 40 cities are run by democrats and in many cases radical left. and they've got you wrapped around their finger, joe, to a point you don't want to say anything about law and order. and i'll tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and you're afraid to even say it. >> all right, i want to return to the question of race. vice president biden, after the grand jury and the breonna taylor case decided not to

charge any of the police with homicide, you said it raises the question, quote, whether justice could be equally applied in america. do you believe that there is a separate but unequal system of justice for blacks in this country? >> yes, there's systemic injustice in this country. in education, in work and in law enforcement. and the way in which its enforced. but, look, the vast majority of police officers are good, decent honorable men and women. they risk their lives every day to take care of us, but there are some bad apples. when they occur and find them, they have to be sorted out. they have to be held accountable. and what i'm going to do as president of the united states is call together an entire group of people at the white house, everything from the civil rights groups to the police officers, the police chiefs, and we're going to work this out. so we're going to work this out so we change the way in which we have more transparency in when these things happen.

these cops aren't happy to see what happened to george floyd. these cops aren't happy to see what happened to breonna taylor. most don't like it, but we have to have a system where people are held accountable. by the way, violence in response is never appropriate. peaceful protest is. violence is never appropriate. >> what is peaceful protest? when they run through the middle of the town and burn down stores and kill people all over the place -- >> president trump, i'd like to continue with the issue. i promise i'll get to the issue of law and order in a moment. this month your administration directed federal agencies to end racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege or critical race theory. why did you decide to do that to end racial sensitivity training, and do you believe that there is systemic racism in this country, sir? >> i ended it because it's racist. i ended it because a lot of

people were complaining that they were asked to do things that were absolutely insane, that it was a radical revolution that was taking place in our military, in our schools, all over the place. and you know it, and so does everybody else. and he would know-touch am. >> what is radical about racial sensitivity training? >> if you were a certain person you had no status in life, it was sort of a reversal, and if you look at the people, we would pay people hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach very bad ideas and frankly very sick ideas. and really they were teaching people to hate ourtry, and i'm not going to do that. i'm not going to allow that to happen. we have to go back to the core values of this country. they were teaching people that our country is horrible place, it's a racist place. and they were teaching people to hate our country. and i'm not going to allow that to happen. >> vice president biden? >> he's the racist. here's a deal i know a lot

more -- >> let him finish. >> the fact is that there is racial insensitivity. people have to be made aware what other people feel like, what insults them, what is demeaning to them. it's important people know. many people don't want to hurt other peoples feels, but it makes a big difference. it makes a gigantic difference in a way a child is able to grow up and have a sense of self-esteem. it's a little bit like how this guy and his friends look down on so many people. they look down on their nose on people like irish catholics like me that grow up in scranton, people who don't have money. they look down on people who are of a different faith, people who are of a different color. nagt, we're all americans. the only way we're going to bring this country together is bring everybody together. there's nothing we cannot do if we do it together. we can take this on and -- >> president trump, sir.

>> during the obama-biden administration there was tremendous division. that was hatred. you look at ferguson. many places, look what happened in oakland. look what happened in baltimore. frankly, it was more violent than what i'm even you haven't mentioned. are you in favor of law and order? >> i'm in favor of law. you follow it. >> let him -- >> with justice. where people get treated fairly. and the fact is violent crime went down 17%, 15% in our administration. it's gone up on his watch. >> president of the united states of america. >> every record in the book. >> you'll be happy.

we'll talk about law and order. >> places we had trouble were democratic run cities. >> that's the question. there has been a increase in homicide in america this summer. particularly. you blame that on democratic mayors and governors. there have been equivalent spikes in republican led cities like tulsa and fort worth. is this a party issue? >> i think it's a party issue. you can bring in examples. what's going on in chicago, 53 people were shot and 8 died. shot. if you look at new york where it's going up like nobody has ever seen the the numbers are going up 200% crime. >> republican cities. >> it's crazy. he doesn't want to say law and order. he can't. he'll lose the radical left supporters and once he does that it's over with. if he ever got to run the country and they ran it the way he wants to run it we would have suburbs would be gone. and you would see problems like you have never seen. >> he wouldn't know a suburb

unless he took a wrong turn. >> go ahead. >> i was raised in the suburbs. this is not 1950. all the dog whistles and racism don't work anymore. suburbs are integrated. there are people driving to soccer practice and black and white and hispanic in the same car as any time in the past. what really is a threat to the suburbs and safety is his failure to deal with covid-19. they're dying in the suburbs. and the environment. they're being flooded and burned out. because his refusal to do anything. that's why the suburbs are in trouble. >> i want to talk about this issue of law and order. in the joint recommendation that came from the biden sanders task force. re-imagining policing. what is reimagining policing mean and do you support -- let me finish. do you support the black lives

matter call for community control of policing? >> what i support is the police having the opportunity to deal with the problems they face. and i'm totally opposed to defunding police. local police. the only one defunding in the budget calls for a $400 million cut in local law enforcement assistance. they need more assistance. when they show up for a call to have someone with them as a psychologist or psychiatrist. to keep them from having to use force and be able to talk people down. we have to have community policing like with we had before. officers get to know the people in the community. that's when crime went down. it didn't go up. it went down. and so we have to be engaged. >> that's not what we're talking about. defunding the police. >> that's not true. >> he doesn't have any law -- no law enforcement support. almost nothing.

who do you have? one group that supports you? >> we don't have time. >> name one law enforcement group that came out and supported you. >> i'll take back the -- i want to get to another subject. which is the issue of protest. in many cities that turned violent in portland, oregon, especially we had more than 100 straight days of protests which i think you would agree. talk about peaceful. many turned into riots. mr. vice president, you say that people who commit crimes should be held accountable. the question i have is as the democratic nominee and earlier tonight you said you are the democratic party right now, have you ever called the democratic mayor of portland or governor of oregon and said you have to stop this. bring in the national guard. do whatever it takes.

stop the days and months of violence in portland. >> i don't hold public office now. i am a former vice president. i have made it clear in my public statement that the violence should be prosecuted. it should be. anyone who commits it -- >> you never called for the people. -- the leaders in portland and in oregon to call and bring the national guard and knock off 100 days of riots. >> they can take care of it if he stays out of the way. >> oh, really? >> the middle of street. they shot him. for three days. >> go ahead. >> by the way. his own former spokesperson said riots and chaos and violence help his cause. that's what this is all about. >> i don't know who said that. >> i do. >> who? >> kellyanne conway.

she said that. here's the point. that's what he is keeps trying to rile everything up. he doesn't want to calm things down. instead of going in and talking to people and saying let's get everybody together. figure out how to deal with this. he pours gasoline on the fire. constantly. every single solitary time. >> to end this button up the segment. a minute to answer. you have repeatedly criticized -- you have been talking. i'm asking you -- >> he made a statement. >> if you want to switch seats. we can do that. >> national guard and it would be over. they don't want to accept the national guard. >> you have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out antifa and other left wing extremist groups. are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and

militia groups to say they need to stand down and not add to the violence and number of the cities as we saw in kenosha and in portland. >> sure. i'm willing to do that. >> go ahead, sir. >> almost everything i see is from the left wing. not from the right. >> what are you saying? >> i'm willing to do anything. i want to see peace. >> say it. >> what do you want to call them. >> white supremacist. >> stand back and standby. i'll tell you what. somebody has to do something about antifa and the left. this is not a right wing problem. this is left wing. >> his fbi director said -- antifa is an idea. not an organization. >> you have to be kidding. >> his fbi director said. >> we're done, sir. moving on to the next --

>> everybody in your administration tells you the truth is a bad idea. you have no idea. >> antifa is a dangerous radical group. >> the trump and biden records. when a president -- i'm asking a question. when the president seeks a second term, it is generally a referendum on his record. vice president biden, you like to quote your dads sayings which is don't compare me to the almighty. compare me to the alternative. in this case, you are the alternative. looking at both of your records i'll ask each of you, why should voters elect you president over your opponent in this segment president trump, you go first. two minutes. >> because there's never been an administration or president who has done more than i have done in a period of three and a half years. that's despite the impeachment hoax. and you saw what happened today

with hillary clinton, a con job. i had to fight both flanks. there has never been an administration that's done what i have done. the greatest before covid-19 came in. greatest economy in history. lowest unemployment. everything was good. by the way, there was unity going to happen. people were calling me for the first time in years calling and saying it's time maybe and then what happened we got hit. now we're building back up again. a rebuilding of the military. including space force and all the other things. a fixing of the va. it was a mess. we have a 91% approval rating at the v.a. we take care of the vets. we rebuilt the military. the job that we have done and i'll tell you, some people say the most important. by the end of the first term i'll have 300 federal judges and court of appeals judges.

and hopefully three great supreme court justices. that is a record the likes of which very few people -- one of the reasons i'll have so many judges. president obama and him left me 128 judges to fill. when you leave office you don't leave any judges. that's like you don't do that. they left 128 openings and if i were a member of his party, because they have a little different philosophy. if you left us 128 openings, you can't be a good president. you can't be a good vice president. i want to thank you. it gives us almost -- probably above that number by the end of this term, 300 judges. it's a record. >> looking at both records. why should voters elect you president as opposed to president trump? two minutes uninterrupted. >> under this president we have become weaker. sicker. poorer. more divided.

and more violent. when i was vice president, we inherited a recession. i was asked to fix it. i did. we left him a booming economy. and he caused the recession. with regard to being weaker. the fact is i have gone head to head with putin. and made it clear we're not taking his stuff. he's putin's puppy. he refuses to say anything about the bounty on the heads of american soldiers. >> mr. president. your campaign agreed both sides get two minute answers. uninterrupted. your side agreed. observe what your campaign agreed to. >> he never keeps his word. >> that was a rhetorical question. >> add back 30 seconds. >> thirdly, we're poorer. the billionaires have gotten much more wealthy.

by three to $400 billion more since covid-19. you at home you got less. you're in more trouble than before. in terms of being more violent. when we were in office there was less violence in america than today. he's president of the united states. it's on his watch. and with regard to more divided, the nation can't stay divided. we can't be this way. speaking of my son the way you talk about the military the way you talk about them being losers and being just being suckers. my son was in iraq and spent a year there. he got the bronze star. he got a medal. he was not a loser. he was a patriot. and the people left behind there were heros. and i resent. >> talking about hunter?

>> my son beau biden. >> i know hunter. he got thrown out of the military. dishonorably discharged for cocaine use. and didn't have a job until you were vice president. >> none of that is true. >> he made a fortune in ukraine and china and moscow. >> my son -- >> and didn't have a job. >> my son like a lot of people. had a drug problem. he's over taken it. he's fixed it. he worked on it. i'm proud of him. >> tens of millions of dollars. >> we have been through that. >> discredited. >> we have been through this. the american people would rather hear about more substantial subjects. as the moderator i'll make a judgment. >> $3 million from the mayor of moscow. >> mitt romney said it --

political reasons. >> i'd like to talk about climate change. the forest fires in the west are raging now. they have burned millions of acres. they have displaced hundreds of thousands of people. when state officials there blame the fires on climate change, you said i don't think the science knows. over your four years you have pulled the u.s. out of the paris climate accord. you have rolled back a number of obama and environmental records. what do you believe about the science of climate change and what will you do in the next four years to confront it? >> i want crystal clean water. and air. i want beautiful clean air. we have the lowest carbon. look at our numbers now. we are doing phenomenal. i haven't destroyed our businesses. our businesses aren't put out of commission. if you look at the paris accord it was a disaster.

people are actually very happy about what's going on. our businesses are doing well. as far as the fires are concerned, you need forest management in addition to everything else. the forest floor is loaded up with dead trees. years old and like tinder and leaves and everything else. you drop a cigarette the forest burns down. >> what do you believe about the science of climate change? >> i believe that we have to do everything we can to have immaculate air and water. and whatever else we can that's good. we're planting a billion trees the billion tree project. >> do you believe that human pollution, gas and greenhouse gas contribute to the global warming? >> a lot of things do. to an extent, yes. but we have to do better management of the forest. every year, i get the call. california is burning. california is burning. if that was cleaned.

if you had forest management, you wouldn't be getting those calls. in europe they live the forest cities. they maintain their forest. they manage the forest. i was with the head of a major country. it's a forest city. he said we have trees that are far more, they ignite easier than california. there shouldn't be a problem. i spoke with the governor. i said at some point you can't ever year have hundreds of thousands of acres of land just burnt to the ground. that's burning down because of a lack -- >> if you believe in the science of climate change, why roll back the obama clean power plant which limited carbon emission in power plants. why have you relaxed -- >> it was driving energy prices through the sky. >> why relax fuel economy standards that will create more pollution from cars and trucks? >> not really. what's happening is the car is

much less expensive and much safer car and talk about a tiny difference and what would happen because of the cost of car. you would have double and triple number of cars purchased. we have the old slugs. ten, 12 years old. it would be safer and much cheaper. >> in california -- >> cars are off the market. people would be able to afford a car. by the way we'll see how it turns out. people agree with me. many people. the car has gotten so expensive because they computers all over the place for an extra little bit of gas. and i'm okay with electric too. i'm all for it. i have given big incentives. what they have done in california is crazy. >> vice president biden, respond to the president's climate change record. i want to ask you about concern. you proposed $2 trillion in green jobs. you talk about new limits.

not abolishing. but limits on fracking. ending use of fossil fuel by 2035. and zero net emission of greenhouse gas by 2050. the president says a lot of the things would tank the economy and cost millions of jobs. >> he's wrong. number two, if in fact when our during the administration recovery act i was able to bring down the cost of renewable energy to cheaper than or cheap as coal and gas and oil. nobody is going to build another coal fired plant in america. no one will build another oil fire plant in america. they will move to renewable energy. take the federal fleet and turn it into a fleet that is run on their electric vehicles. making sure we can do that. and put 500,000 charging stations in the highways that we'll build in the future.

and build an economy that in fact is going to provide for the ability to take 4 million buildings and make sure they in fact are weatherized in a way that will emit significantly less gas and oil. because the heat will not be going out. there's so many things we can do now to create thousands of jobs. we can get to net zero in terms of energy production. by 2035. not only not costing people jobs, creating jobs. creating millions of good paying jobs. not 15 bucks an hour. prevailing wage. and having a new infrastructure that is green. and the first thing i will do, i will rejoin the paris accord. i will join the paris accord because with us out of it look what's happening. it's all falling apart. and talk about someone who has no relationship to foreign policy. brazil, the rain forest in

brazil is being torn down. ripped down. more carbon is absorbed in that rain forest than in the united states. instead of doing something about that, i would be gathering up and making sure we had the countries of the world coming up with $20 billion and saying here's $20 billion stop tearing down the forest. and if you don't you'll have significant economic consequences. >> what about the argument that president trump says that you have to balance environmental interest and economic interest and he's drawn his line. >> he hasn't drawn a line. he makes sure he wants to make sure methane is not a problem. you don't have to have standards for automobiles that exist now. he says the -- it's all true. >> the green new deal.

it's not 2 or 20 billion. it's $100 trillion. >> i'm talking about the -- >> rebuild the building. it's the dumbest -- airplanes are out of business. two car systems are out. where they want to take out the cows. that's not true either. this is a 100 trillion. more money than our country could make in 100 years if -- >> i actually have studied your plan. and it includes upgrading 4 million buildings, weatherizing two million homes over four years. building one and a half million energy efficient homes. so the question becomes the president is saying, some people would say that sounds like it will cost a lot of money and hurt the economy. >> it will create thousands and millions of jobs. good paying jobs. >> let him finish. >> he doesn't know how to do that.

it will create millions of good paying jobs and tax incentives to weatherize. it will make the economy much safer. look how much we're paying now to deal with the hurricanes. and he has an answer. drop a nuclear weapon on them. >> you made it up. >> here's the deal. we're going to be in a position where we can create hard, hard, good jobs by making sure the environment is clean and we are all in better shape. we spent billions of dollars now on floods, hurricanes, rising sea. we're in real trouble. look what's happened in the midwest with the storms that come through and wipe out entire sections and counties in iowa. that didn't happen before. because of global warming. we make up 15% of the world's problem. we in fact the rest of the world we have to get them to come

along. we have to get back into the paris accord. >> all right, gentlemen. >> why didn't he do it for 47 years? you were vice president. china sends up dirt in world. russia and india. we're supposed to be good. he made a couple statements the green new deal is $100 trillion. >> that's not my plan. the green new deal not my plan. >> rebuild everything. >> he made a statement about the military. you said i said something about the military. he and his friends made it up and went with it. i never said it. he called the military stupid bastards. on tape. i would never say that. >> play it. >> vice president answered his final question. the final question. >> i can't remember his rants. >> i'm having trouble myself.

about the economy and the question of what it will cost. >> the economy. >> the green new deal. and the idea of what your -- >> the green new deal will pay for itself. as we move forward. we're not building plants that are great polluters. >> you support the green new deal? >> oh, you don't? that's a big statement. the radical left. >> i support the biden plan. that i put forward. that's different than what he calls the radical green new deal. >> final segment. election integrity. millions of americans are receiving mail in ballots or going to vote early. how confident should we be that this will be a fair election and what are you prepared to do over the next five plus weeks because it will not only be to election

day but also counting some ballots mail in ballots after election day. what do you prepared to do to reassure the american people that the next president will be the legitimate winner of the election in this final segment. vice president go first. >> let people vote. decide how they'll vote, when they'll vote and what means. his own homeland security director and fbi director says there's no evidence mail in ballots are a source of being manipulated and cheating. the fact is there will be millions of people because of covid-19 voting my mail. like he does. he sits behind the resolute desk and sends his ballot to florida. there are enough poll watchers to make sure they can socially distance. they are open on time and stay open until the votes are counted.

this is about dissuade people from voting because he is trying to scare people into thinking it's not going to be legitimate. show up and vote. you will determine the outcome of the election. vote, vote, vote. if you're able to vote early in the state. if you are able to vote in person, vote in person. vote whatever way is the best way for you. he cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of the election. in terms of whether or not when the votes are counted, that will be accepted. if i win that will be accepted. if i lose it will be accepted. by the way, if in fact he says he's not sure what he'll accept, it doesn't matter. if we get the votes it will be all over. he'll go. he can't stay in power. it won't happen. it won't happen. vote. just make sure you understand, you have it in your control to determine what this country will

look like the next four years. is it going to change or four more years of lies. >> two minutes. >> so, when i listen to joe talking about a transition, there's been no transition from when i won. i won the election. and if you look at crooked hillary clinton and the different people. there was no transition. they came after me trying to do a coup. spying on my campaign. they started from the day i won and before i won. from the day i came down the escalator. they were a disaster and a disgrace to the country. we have caught them. we have caught them all. we have it on tape. you gave the idea for the logan act against general flynn. take a look at that. caught you in a sense. president obama was sitting in the office and knew about it too. don't talk about a free transition. as far as the ballots it's a disaster. a solicited ballot is okay. you solicit.

you're asking. they send it back. you send it back. i did that. if you have an unsolicited. they're sending millions of ballots. there's fraud. they found them in creeks. they found some with the name trump in a waste basket. they are being sent all over the place. they sent two in a democrat area. a thousand ballots everybody got two ballots. this is going to be a fraud like you have never seen. it's nice on november 3 you're watching and see who won the election. we'll do well. people are really happy with the job we have done. we won't know, we might not know for months because the ballots will be all over. take a look at what happened in new york and new jersey. what happened in virginia and other places. they're not losing 2%. which is too much in election could be won or lost with that. they're losing 30%. it's a fraud. it's a shame. can you imagine where they say

you have to have your ballot in by november 10. that's seven days after the election in theory should have been announced. we have major states with that run by democrats. >> two minutes. president trump, you'll be able to continue. you have been charging for months mail in balloting will be a disaster. you say it's rigged. it will lead to fraud. in 2018, in the last midterm election. 31 million people voted mail in voting. that was a quarter of all the voters that year. cast ballots by mail. now that millions of mail in ballots have gone out, what are you going to do about it and are you counting on the supreme court including a justice barrett to settle any dispute? >> i'm counting on them to look at the ballots. i hope we don't need them. i think so.

what's happening is incredible. i read today at least 1% of the ballots for 2016 were invalidated. they take and we don't like them. >> what are you going to do about it? millions go out. >> go vote. a solicited ballot. or go vote. >> the fact millions of people. >> go and vote. like they used to. >> either do a solicited ballot. you send it in and send it back. and send they have mailmen with lots -- did you see what's going on. west virginia. mailman selling ballots. they're being sold and dumped in rivers. this is a horrible thing for the country. >> there is no evidence of that. >> this will not end well. >> five states had mail in ballots for the last decade. five. including two republican states. and you don't have to solicit the ballot.

it's sent to you. they're saying it has to be a postmark by the time election day. if it doesn't get in until the 7th it should be counted. he's afraid of counting the votes. >> you're wrong. >> vice president biden the biggest problem over the years with mail in voting hasn't been fraud. it has been that sizable numbers. hundreds of thousands are thrown out because they have not been properly filled out or some other irregularity. the question i have is are you concerned that the supreme court with a justice barrett will settle any dispute? >> i'm concerned any court would settle this. here's the deal. when you file -- get a ballot and fill it out, you're supposed to have an affidavit. if you didn't know you have

someone say that this is me. you should be able to. if in fact you can verify that's you before the ballot is thrown out. that is sufficient to be able to count the ballot. someone made a mistake and not dotting the correct i. who they voted for, testify, say who they voted for. say it's you. that is totally legitimate. >> you have 80 million ballots sent in swamping the system. it can't be done. already it's been fraud. >> eight states. election workers are prohibited currently by law from even beginning to process ballots. even take them out and flatten them. until election day. that means it is likely because there will be a huge increase in mail in balloting that we are not going to know on election night who the winner is.

it could be days. it could be weeks. >> could be months. >> until we find out the new president. first for you, finally for the vice president. i hope neither of you interrupt the other. will you urge supporters to stay calm during this extended period not to engage in any civil unrest and pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? president trump. >> i'm urging supporters to go into the poll and watch very carefully. because that is what has to happen. i'm urging them to do it. there was a big problem today in philadelphia they went in to watch. poll watchers. a safe thing. they were thrown out. they weren't allowed to watch. bad things happen in philadelphia. and i am urging my people. i hope it's a fair election. if it's a fair election i'm 100% on board.

if i see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated i can't go along with that. >> take to the streets? >> you have a fraudulent election. 80 million ballots. people aren't equipped. and they cheat. they found ballots in a waste paper basket and all had the name -- military. they all had the name trump op them. >> vice president, final question. will you urge supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted and will you pledge not to declare victory until the election is independently certified? >> yes. here's the deal. count the ballots. some of the ballots can't even be opened until election day. if there's thousands of ballots it will take time to do it.

our military, they have been voting by ballots since the end of the civil war. that's is what's happening. why is it for them somehow not fraudulent? it's the same process. it's honest. no one established at all that there is fraud related to mail in ballot. somehow it's a fraudulent process. >> it's been established. take a look at the race -- >> you had an opportunity. >> they have no idea what happened. >> he has no idea what he's talking about. the fact is i will accept it. he will too. you know why? once the winner is declared after all the ballots are counted. that will be the end of it. that will be the end of it. if it's me, if it's not me, i'll support the outcome. i'll be a president not just for the democrats, i'll be a president for the democrats and republicans. this guy -- >> gentlemen. this is the end of the debate.

>> honest ballot count. he does too. >> to be continued. in more debates. as we go on. president trump, vice president biden. it's been an interesting hour and a half. i want to thank you both for participating. in the first of three debates that you have agreed to engage in. we want to thank case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic for hosting. the next debate will be one week from tomorrow. october 7 at university of utah. in salt lake city. the two vice presidential nominees. pence and kamala harris 9:00 p.m. eastern that night. watch. until then, thank you. and good night. [ applause ] >> clearly, this was the most chaotic presidential debate i have ever seen. i suspect most of you if not all have ever seen. most chaotic presidential debate. it will certainly raise a lot of

questions about the future of the presidential debate between these two candidates. i wouldn't be surprised if this is the last presidential debate between the president of the united states and the former vice president of the united states. we shall see. fairly soon. joe biden clearly showed up today. he went head to head with the president of the united states. who was often put on the defensive interrupting the vice president repeatedly. this will be a relief to a lot of the biden supporters who are going into this fairly nervous. the former vice president showed up. a lot to analyze and discuss. >> that was a hot mess. inside a dumpster fire. inside a train wreck. that was the worst debate i have ever seen. it wasn't even a debate. it was a disgrace. and it's primarily because of president trump.

who spent the entire time interrupting not abiding by the rules he agreed to. lying. maliciously attacking the son of the vice president. when asked to condemn white supremacy. he brought up the name of a far right group. and said stand back. and standby. we'll talk about who won the debate and who lost. one thing for sure, the american people lost. tonight. that was horrific. >> you took the words out of my mouth. i'm going to say it like it is. that was a shit show. we're on cable. we can say it. apologies for being crude. but that is really the phrase i'm getting from people on both sides of the aisle on text and the only phrase i can think of to describe it. i couldn't agree with you more.

the people who have been hurt the most by that are the people who are genuinely looking to see what each candidate stands for. and who they should vote for. there are still people out there who haven't made up their mind. on which candidate to vote for or whether to vote. i'm not sure that particularly on the latter point that that performance and that the theater there, the reality tv show. the bad reality tv show will help them in the least. >> it was a complete disaster. on all fronts. if you came into this thinking that two men in their 70s who want to be the leader of the free world for the next four years could have a reasonable exchange of ideas. you came away from this debate thinking it's not possible. you could hardly hear them at certain points. there was so much cross talk.

as you pointed out, we should be clear here, this is not both sides type of situation. there was one party on that stage. interrupting. yelling over the moderator. and from the very beginning what was so striking to watch was that usually these debates build. and build and build to the end. we started at a 12. on a scale one to ten. the president was really -- i think in a very agitated state. early on in the debate. and the tone was set. >> i have heard already from people who very much support the president. want him to do well. as this was going on. he was way too hot. they knew he was going to be aggressive. he was going to try to be on offense as much as possible. this took it too far. even for donald trump. >> think about if you're undecided. and don't like the president's style but some of the policy. and you come in tonight and the

president -- i don't know if joe biden won the debate. he had nice moments. i thought he was kind of flat. that's irrelevant. the way the president behaved, again the anti-defamation league is already out there asking the president to clarify why he didn't condemn white supremacists. and told the group to stand back and standby. the way that the president behaved on the debate stage is the way the president behaved in american politics. he's dominant and if you like that, great. he was rude, he didn't abide by the standards of decency. it was really frankly embarrassing. to clarify something, it was almost entirely trump. i wasn't talking about joe biden the part i was unsure about. the moderator. he didn't have control of the debate stage for much of the evening. he didn't remind the president he was violating the rules until one hour and 13 minutes into the debate. >> the whole thing was disgraceful.

and when you talk about the fact that the president took it to a new low, there was one part in particular. it's hard to pick out. that was really unbelievable. which is when joe biden was talking about his son who died. who he was incredibly close to. talking about him in the war hero. and somebody who was in the military. and what did the president do? he shot at him about his son who is living as a drug addict. that was a moment joe biden didn't prepare for. he was trying to pivot away from the talk about his family. in that moment he turned to the camera and said my son did have drug issues. like many of you out there. that wasn't something -- we talked about it. that he talks about very much. that was a moment where joe biden was able to shine. as the president was incredibly low. much lower than his people. >> political attacks and things

that lack decency. in that moment it was obvious the president was trying to shoe horn a political attack against one son. while biden was talking about another son who served in the military and died. that comes across. the american people are not stupid. it goes to show another thing that seemed clear to me. really from the beginning was the lack of control. that the president had over his own strategy. the plan he had going into this. what did he want the american people to take away? you couldn't tell. in so many instances you couldn't understand what he was trying to say. he was yelling over people. >> one final thought. chris wallace was pressing the president on the idea of would he concede if he loses. joe biden said yes, of course, i will. the president wouldn't. it occurred to me the thought that the president doesn't think he's going to win the election.

and he wants to bring the rest of us down with him. >> anderson? >> thank you very much. david axelrod, i don't think we have seen a president of the united states completely lacking in shame. just shameless. and immoral. there's not a moral fiber in this man. and i don't know what came out of the debate. i don't know what side won. i don't know what voters want. but you cannot have watched that debate -- i would think, and be proud of our president. the way he thinks of us as viewers as americans trying to decide about the future of the country. can anybody come away from that knowing what trump wants for the next four years? >> does this surprise you? >> no.

to see it on such full display. >> the guy on the stage is the guy we have seen for four years. rick santorum predicted what he would do. the question is whether he over torqued it and went over board. i would say way over board. and i don't think that he is going to profit from this. i think trump may have ended his presidency tonight with his performance. >> i thought the president was going to come out hot. >> he did. >> he did come out hot. >> it's not even funny. are you proud of the president of the united states? >> i think he over played his hand. here's what i saw on stage. the president who -- you can hear it by him reciting the things that happened throughout the presidency. he feels like he's been mistreated and by the prior administration.

>> all the narcissist and psychopaths feel that. doesn't make it true. >> the president came out hot. and because he is feeling aggrieved and i'm telling you. he felt like this is his opportunity to sort of turn the tables and turn it onto joe biden. and give biden the grief he has been given over four years. i don't think it worked. to answer correctly. i think he came out way too hot. i don't think biden particularly did a great job. but i think that was over shadowed by the fact trump was over doing it. >> it was -- here you have a president playing victim. when 200,000 plus people have died from covid-19. we know this is a president full of grievance. tonight he took the presidency and the office of the presidency to a new low. the american people who have suffered for the last six months

plus with this pandemic, deserve a better debate and better explanations from the president of the united states. and what i heard from him was contemptible. out of control. almost monsterous at points. when he was talking about hunter biden on a personal level. refusing to denounce white supremacy. >> standby. >> what does that mean? >> what was that? >> he's so full of grievance. but can't get passed himself. if he was looking to change the mind of any women voters, a lot of women would look at this and be frightened by it. >> first of all, jake said this was a circus. circus workers reached out and say actually we take offense. we are careful and respectful people. we work very carefully. circus workers are taking offense. this was worse than a circus. only three things happened. number one.

donald trump refused to condemn white supremacy. number two. the president of the united states refused to condemn white supremacy. number three the commander-in-chief refused to condemn white supremacy on the global stage in front of my children, in front of everybody's families and he was given the opportunity multiple times to condemn white supremacy and he gave a wink and a nod to a racist, nazi murderous organization that's now celebrating online that's now saying we have a go ahead. look at what the broad boys are doing right now online because the president of the united states refused to condemn

supremacy. that's what happened tonight. >> what surprises you? he was asked these questions before at a presidential debate. this is how he led. i thought joe biden did fine. he hung in there, like riding a bucking bronco. and he showed his fundamental decency which is what people are yearning for in contrast to this president. everybody was critical of biden when he was relatively quiet. he gained during those months. i think the same thing happened tonight. the time he didn't get to speak because the president was interrupting him, i think that worked for biden. because of the way trump debated. >> should there be other debates? >> the vice presidential debate

is next and there should be two more presidential debates. >> i don't think the country will be yearning for these. you know what will happen if the biden says he doesn't want to dignify another debate. the president will attack him for running away from debates. i don't think the country wants another one of these spectacles. >> trump failed tonight. he had to figure out a way to get women back on board for him. that kind of kindergarten behavior won't get female voters on board. he's trying to grow this republican party to include african-americans. he said he was going to reach out to african-americans on the economy. didn't even speak about it. didn't even talk about it. had an opportunity to brag on his black record and instead talked about portland. a clinical matter, i am upset. everybody i know is disgusted, upset or angry.

even my republican friends. i don't know what he was doing up there. there was not a single thing he needed to do tonight except offend a lot of people. >> he was a bully. he wasn't paying attention to his own rules -- >> well, that -- >> -- that his people agreed to. biden would say it's hard to get a word in with this clown or just shut up. >> biden missed a lot of opportunities to interrupt the president. there were a couple of times when biden did interrupt the president and it threw the president off and those were real missed opportunities. one of the other things the president did was by being the person he is, we are talking about how he did as opposed to

biden just standing there ends up looking better than anybody. >> i thought there were a couple of moments when biden did poorly. he would not give an answer on packing the court. i thought that was a bad moment for joe biden not to say i am not going to do those things. it was lost in this debate. it was really interesting. he did come out hot. i don't think chris wallace -- i understand jake said he didn't step in, but i think chris wallace was overwhelmed. you are in there in the moment and you don't expect this. i thought wallace did a pretty good job shutting him down. i thought he was helpful to joe biden on many occasions shutting the president down. by the end he said two minutes and you agree to it.

the president calmed down and the last half hour or so was somewhat of a reasonable debate. but the die was cast. i think the president got hurt tonight. >> how about when they were talking at the end about the potential for rigged election. the president was frightening, threatening when he talked about the election. he said this is not going to end well. what does that mean to the american public? that if you go and vote in person or you vote by mail, that something is going to happen? what is going to happen? was he predicting violence? >> i don't think that's fair. that's taking it too far. what the president is saying -- >> the same debate about white supremacy. >> an armed group to stand down and stand by.

>> i don't think he was telling them that, but he did not answer the question directly and he should have and it was wrong. i have no idea why he didn't. >> he did. he answered it by his silence. >> why he didn't do it when directly asked that, i don't know why he didn't do it and it was a mistake. >> when asked about the young man shot in kenosha, he defended the young man. he refused to condemn the group that came into portland by caravan. he has given aid and comfort to these groups because he feels they are on his side. all you need is to be on donald trump's side -- >> conspiracy theory, because they believe he is on their side. first thing on record about the

qanon who is talking about anti-catholic stereotypes, talking about hollywood celebrities drinking the blood of children. these are age old rival nazi things -- >> yeah, but he got elected for this in a way. he has spent his life skirting norms and institutions. is it surprising in this most important debate of his life that he trampled over the rules in this debate. what you saw tonight was the reason that donald trump has the problems that he has, and it has as much to do with who he is as a person as any of his positions, although those are areas of vulnerability as well. >> a couple of things about biden.

first of all, there were a lot of people on the left and right who weren't sure that gas had enough gas in the tank to get through the night. those questions were put to bed. he was able to stand and deliver and deal with the harassment and bullying. he stood the there. >> he certainly wasn't a powerful figure on the stage. >> but at the end of the debate you felt he was a decent human being. >> i want to call the stuff fair. there was concern can biden make it, deal with the body blows. biden did not fall apart. that was a significant development. nobody will put that against him. people were wrong. biden got asked the tough question about law and order. he said i am for the rule of law.

when trump got tough questions, he couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, didn't do it. if you are looking for peace -- stability. >> packing the court? >> he ducked. >> that's a huge issue. >> if you are looking for peace, you have to compare the performances. biden answers the tough questions more than he didn't. trump ducked. >> back to wolf. >> people were watching this debate around the world. 200 countries and territories. clearly this debate was an embarrassment for the united states of america. i want to bring in our fact checker. in the big picture, how much was fact and how much was false? >> it depended who we were listening two.

we had an avalanche of lying from president trump. biden made some false claims but marginally accurate. there were times where president trump's every lie specifically on mail in voting, everything he said was inaccurate. and these were largely false claims the president has made before. these weren't one-time slips, they have been fact checked and are still long. >> let's turn to a specific claim made by president trump about former vice president biden's health care plain. listen to this. >> the bigger problem is that you are going to extinguish 180 million people with the health care. >> that's not true. >> you are going to socialist. >> break that down.

>> biden is correct. that is not true. the democratic primary where bernie sanders proposed a medicare for all, single payer plan which would have eliminated about 180 million people. biden rejected that. he selected the public option which allows them to if they want enter into a medicare type program. if they want to keep their own insurance they can. bottom line, this is inaccurate. >> president trump's claim about manufacturing jobs created on his watch. listen to this. >> they said it would take a miracle to bring back manufacturing. i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothing. gave up on manufacturing. >> we did not. >> how do you rate that claim? >> everything is inaccurate.fro

presidency it's a net loss of 237,000 jobs. we have lost manufacturing jobs. if you want to be generous and go to the pre-pandemic, it's a gain of 483,000 which would be pretty good. but the president was adding more. there were manufacturing jobs lost under obama but he inherited a recession in which a steep decline was underway. that turned around. then there was a slow but steady increase in manufacturing jobs until trump took office. it was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire. that was the worst debate i have ever seen. >>