night's so-called debate and it's pretty clear it's the way it's going to be from here to election day. they even made a statement today saying last night's debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues. they don't know what to do. they didn't put out any specifics. they're not sure. can't cut off a person's mic. you could still hear the president, as pointed out today in "the new york times." but it's not going to make much of a difference. donald trump is what he is. it's not going to change. it's like his history of racism and his father's history of it, too. sh sure, once or twice, he's made p perfunctory statements. it's not the first time. it's a pattern. here's what he said responding to this question from moderator

chris wallace. >> are you willing, tonight, to condemn white sprem sixtupremac militia groups, and to say they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities? as we saw in kenosha and as we have seen in portland? >> i would say -- i would say almost everything i see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. >> so what -- what are you saying? >> i'm willing to do anything. i want to see peace. >> do it, sir. >> do it. say it. >> you want to call 'em -- what do you want to call 'em? give me a name. >> white supremacists and right-wing militia. >> stand back and stand by. >> stand back and stand by. now, that's just not a condemnation. that's actually an instruction. stand by. stand by means, keep your ar-15s. keep those tactical selects that you juvests that you just bough

online. and all the camo you got so you can look like you were in the special forces when, in fact, you weren't. we might need you to descend on polling places come election day. you know, things they do in places that have a lot of coups. that was no condemnation of this group the proud boys or any white supremacist and militias more broadly. in fact, the proud boys have taken it up as a rallying cry, apparently. this is the biggest thing in their lives since call of duty war zone was released and that was big. they are selling extra extra large t-shirts with that printed on them. and what did the president say, today, about all this? he did what he always does. i don't know who that is. >> i don't know who the proud boys are. i mean, you'll have to give me a definition because i really don't know who they are. i can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work. like they've done in new york. i just told you. i always denounce any form. any form. any form of any of that. you have to denounce.

but i, also -- joe biden has to say something about antifa. >> any form of any of that. he can't say -- talk about racism. he can't actually put four or five sentences, off the top of his head, together about the dangers of far-right white supremacists. his homeland security department can. they've said it's one of the biggest domestic -- in terms of domestic terror, it's the biggest threat there is. in other words, the president's inability to condemn people like the ones who shouted jews will not replace us, it appears it's just going to be more of the same. just like last night was more of the same. he gets re-elected, more of the same. and maybe, that's what voters want, and so be it. listen to what the president said, back then. and compare it to what he said today and last night. >> yes. i think there's blame on both sides. you you look at -- you look at both sides.

i think there's blame on both sides. and i have no doubt about it, and you don't have any doubt about it, either. and -- and if you reported it accurately, you would say. >> they showed up in charlottesville. >> and you had some very bad people in that group. but you, also, had people that were very fine people, on both sides. >> not then, not last night, and not today, could he simply condemn far-right hate groups. i am repeating what he said, word for word that, quote, you had some very bad people in that group. you know, the bad neo-nazis, not the good ones. all that said, and it's a lot. the bottom line is simple enough. the president cannot condemn anyone if he thinks there is even the slightest chance that they might vote for him and that's what it boils down to because that's all he cares about right now.

and there is no reason not to expect more along those lines for the rest of the campaign. it's why when he was asked about the bizarre qanon conspiracy theory. you know, based on anti-semitic and anti-catholic tropes that have been around for centuries. he said -- first thing he said was, i hear they say nice things about me. nor is there any reason to think the president will stop sowing doubt in the election process. of course, not. or commit to accepting the outcome of it. not given what he said last night. >> will you urge your supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil up rest? and will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? president trump, you go first. >> i am urging my supporters to go into the polls, and watch very carefully because that's what has to happen. i am urging them to do it. >> okay. yeah. so that's not even a stand by. that's go into the polls and

watch because things are happening. big things are happening. that's the kind of language that raises now questions nobody wants to think about. until this election, nobody's had to. there was plenty more last night to tell us what the rest of the campaign's going to look like. if last night's a preview, there will be a flood of falsehoods on the pandemic, which has now taken nearly 207,000 lives, expecting more blame shift from the president. >> if we would have listened to you, the country would have been left wide open. millions of people would have died, not 200,000. and one person is too much. it's china's fault. it should have never happened. they stopped it from going in but it was china's fault. >> so, it's nothing new. none of it is. everything donald trump is and everything he says that defines him was on display last night. in some ways, the question comes with its own answer built in. but it also comes with another question, namely, how much worse? maggie haberman is the white house correspondent. she's been covering donald trump

since long before he entered politics. she tweeted about last night but it might as well have just be about today and all the days ahead. quoting now from her tweet. people close to him are blunt that the president knows he is losing and is scared of it. so he did what he does when afraid or anxious, and tried to impose his will on the night. perspective now from cnn's chief political correspondent, dana bash, traveling with the president just outside of pittsburgh. and cnn's abby phillip. >> well, i am told from a source familiar with the president's thinking that, in private conversations, he is insisting that he did well. that he had a great night. and when it is suggested to him, strongly, that he did not have a great night, that he was too aggressive. that he interrupted too much. that -- that he is surprised to hear that pushback. what i am told is that the, sort of, feeling is that once the

president digests his steady diet of cable news that, you know, he always does. that, it is going to hit him, likely, in the next day or so that he did, in fact, interrupt too much. that he did, in fact, have a bad night, like everybody around him believes that he did. >> but, wait. do they really believe that? because all -- i'm sorry, sorry to interrupt. but i mean, all the mouthpieces who have been flooding the air wavers, you know, peter navarro and others, they've all been parodying both the style and substance of what the president said. >> that's true. but what the analogy that was given to me was remember -- how can you forget -- when the president suggested that injecting or digesting bleach would help with coronavirus. and he couldn't believe people actually thought that was a big deal. after a day or two, he got that that was a big embarrassment. that is the analogy. whether or not he will get there, you're right, it's

obviously a very open question. but despite what people who are paid, you know, to be around him say on tv, i am told that there are people who are very blunt with him, behind the scenes. never mind, again, what he is hearing from people who are almost always very complimentary of him. from david urban to rick santorum. he sees that kind of thing. and, you know, one other thing that was interesting is that they want him to, kind of, i was told, take -- take a beat to rest. they're not even going to go there on the next round of debate prep until, maybe, next week at some point. and they hope, by then, he will have absorbed it all. but, look, anderson, i get your point. it is a big if and a big hope, given the fact that they did work hard with him, behind the scenes, before last night's debate. >> abby, you know, the president had a chance to try and clean up, if you can, you know, his stand by, proud boys, comment. and take some responsibility for his behavior last night.

instead, he did what he always does, which is just try to muddy the water further. i kept wondering. today -- i mean, is part of this just a strategy to disgust and depress everybody but his supporters and maybe peel off a certain percentage of voters who just feel kind of so dirty after watching last night and disgusted that they just stay home and not vote? >> you know, it's an interesting question because i do think that a lot of president trump's political strategy, just in general, not just in this campaign or in this political moment, is about sort of beating the public down. beating down the entire system so that everybody wants to just wash their hands of what is going on. whether he intends to do that or not, i think that is actually the effect. but, you know, the president is not willing, ever really, to just, as you pointed out earlier, even say the words white supremacist. he doesn't want to say the words. this is not a new thing.

it dates back, many years, even going back to the campaign. so, you know, i think that he doesn't like being wrong. and he doesn't like admitting that he made a mistake. and so, you're going to see him trying to stand his ground for as long as possible. and then, perhaps, we might see him change his tactic. but i'll tell you, you know, one of the problems with where the president is, is that he is trying to project a persona of strength against joe biden, who he says is weak. and, in his mind, strength means dominating the conversation. it means being aggressive, in the way that he was last night. and i'm not sure that he understands how to modulate that, in a way that doesn't continue to hurt him. >> i mean, it's -- it's not just the -- i mean, dana, does it hurt him? i mean, again, among his supporters -- >> yes. >> you think it does hurt him? >> yes. well, among his supporters, the people who are supporting him, probably not. but those people he doesn't need

to reach out to, despite evidence to the contrary if you look at his actions. not only over this campaign but the past four years. he's done very little with few exceptions to reach out beyond his base. it's one of the things that have a lot of people scratching their heads, who really like him. but like, in a place where i am right now, i'm in pennsylvania. the president. his campaign believes that he really needs to win this state. and he really needs to win people who are not so sure if he is the right guy, right now. and in large part, because they don't like his character. they don't like his personality. they don't like his tweets. and what you saw on stage last night was his tweets come to life. and i will tell you, one person who is familiar with his debate prep, anderson, said they prepared him to be aggressive but not to be jason from friday the 13th and that is the perception of how his performance was. these are people who like him. >> you know, abby, anyone who thought, you know, that moderate

republicans in tough -- in tough re-election races might forcibly condemn the president's spectacle. look no further than senator collins of maine who said she thinks there was, quote, fault on both sides. wow. susan collins. yet again, you know, all this expectation about really -- fault on both sides. i mean, come on. >> we got to be real about where we are, as a country. we are in a hyperpartisan moment, and she is not an exception to that. susan collins is trying to fight for her survival by literally walking a tightrope in her state. and i think that that's what you are seeing. she's just trying to, sort of, kind of, be, quote/unquote even handed about this, in a way that is not -- does not gel with reality. you are going to see a lot of republicans sort of saying, well, it would be nice if he had said the right thing last night. but they're not going to go out of their way to condemn. to actually condemn what the

president said and did last night. that is what we are going to see, in the coming days. and perhaps, for the future debates that are probably going to look not too dissimilar from what we saw last night. >> seems like, in the past, you know, there were politicians who thought there is something more important than just political survival, you know, from time to time. like, human decency and, you know, actually having morals and virtues, and standing up for what you believe in and saying what you believe. but that seems increasingly rare. dana bash with the vice president. abby phillip, thank you very much. next, the mother of heather heyer. killed in charlottesville by white extremists. >> later, what other countries saw when they tuned in and what that means for america's role in the world. former national security adviser, susan rice, joins us. beautiful. but support the leg!

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whether he would condemn david duke. >> well, just so you understand, i don't know anything about david duke. okay? i don't know about what you are even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists. so, i don't know. i mean, i don't know. did he endorse me? or what's going on? because, you know, i know nothing about david duke. i know nothing about white supremacists. >> for a guy who watches television, nonstop, i know nothing is his favorite retort. in 2000, when he declined to run for president on the reform ticket, he said in a statement, quote, the reform party now holds a klansman. this is not company i wish to keep. in a moment, we will speak with susan brow, whose daughter, heather heyer, was murdered in charlottesville. but first, our sara sidner on the movement the president cannot bring himself to condemn or even remember.

>> let's go with a [ bleep ] antifa chant. let's start it. >> [ bleep ] antifa. >> the proud boys are known for holding rallies. being armed to the teeth, decked out in tactical gear. black and yellow shirts and being ready to rumble with anti-fascists. they say, as a whole, all this is solely for self-defense but that is not how a new york jury saw it. two between proud boys wearing red hats and antifa members in all black. >> we're fiery but we're peaceful. >> reporter: they say they believe in law and order but a apparently not in this case. >> we are not going to apologize for fighting back when somebody throws a bottle of urine at you. i am sorry. >> reporter: they say they are not a hate group and members have sued over being described that way.

but the anti-defamation league says that's exactly what they are. >> the proud boys, unequivocally, are a hate group. they style themselves as a, quote, pro-western fraternity. but their rhetoric frequently invokes anti-semitism, misogyny, xenophobia, and both homophobia and transphobia. >> so when the president was unwilling to explicitly condemn white sprupremacists and then sd this. >> stand back and stand by but i'll tell you what. i'll tell you what. somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left. >> reporter: the proud boys celebrated. >> what does stand back and stand by mean to you, as a leader of the proud boys? >> the organization does not see that as an endorsement, in any way. >> he plays it down but their

chat rooms hype it up. his exact words used as a rallying cry with this added. f it. let's go back to portland. another one reads standing by, sir. >> i was the one that said that. >> so the president mentions your name. is this going to be used as a recruiting tool? >> i mean, any media is used. i wouldn't say that it was like a recruiting tool. any time that we're in the media, matter of fact, one -- >> reporter: he then boasts about the proud boys' mentions on twitter after the debate. >> so, apparently, americans think that proud boys are more important than coronavirus, at this moment. >> reporter: the adl says there are many, serious consequences to the president's inability to plainly state that he condemns white supremacists. >> i always denounce any form, any form, any form, of any of that. >> reporter: the president was asked to do it again, after the debate. but again, never uttered the words white supremacist. >> we need to stop asking for

explanations and simply take him at his word. he believes these people are his allies and he's given them a call to arms. >> taylor knows the terror that can bring. she was targeted in a neo-nazi trolling campaign for simply becoming american university's first black, female student body president. >> to me, as a hate crime survivor and cyber harassment target, i know too well how dangerous this rhetoric is and it causes real harm and real violence in our communities. >> sara sidner, cnn, los angeles. >> my next guest knows that same feeling, along with heartache and loss. she joins us now. and author of bringing the war home, the white power movement in america. it's been over three years since heather was killed by white supremacists in charlottesville

and i am wondering last night when president trump said what he said, what did you think? >> well, i was taking a break from working on scholarship applications that i'm going to download when we're done here. and was washing dishes, and kind of gasped. and thought, well, okay, not surprised. and went back to work. this is -- this is not exactly new news. it's surprising how open he's being about it. but it's not news. >> kathleen, the -- what do you make of first of all, the proud boys, they're saying we don't see this as an endorsement. certainly, online do and they are selling t-shirts, you know, with the slogan on it. >> i think it would be a mistake to think about this as a problem that is only about the proud boys. certainly, the proud boys are galvanizing this moment for their own purposes, as we see in many different places online. but this is about a broader, social movement that includes,

not just the proud boys but, a whole host of other groups, ranging from militias to people who are erroneously described as lone-wolf attackers. all of those people heard a green light in the president's remarks. all of those people have been called to stand by. that's not the same thing as stand down and the results, i think, could be catastrophic. >> and -- and we should point out that the president may claim not to really know anything about this but his own homeland security folks have pinpointed this far-right extremism as the biggest domestic threat, isn't that right? >> that's absolutely right. and we have a whistle-blower from trump's own dhs, elizabeth newman, who's been speaking with an enormous amount of authority about the danger that this poses to our nation. this is the same movement that carried out the oklahoma city bombing, which is the largest, domestic casualty on american soil, between pearl harbor and

9/11. but most people, i think, don't realize this was the work of a social movement. that really words like this make it more difficult to do that really important public work of coming to terms with this legacy of violence. >> susan -- susan, i mean, three years ago, did you ever think that three years on, this would still be -- if not -- this would still be as big, if not even a bigger, threat than it may have been, you know, prior to charlottesville? >> no, honestly, i didn't. i really thought that people would be motivated to act. and i've since learned through watching a number of cycles that people get all excited for about half a minute. and then, they lose interest. and that's why we are where we are. people are not taking action. people are just getting emotional, and then they let it

go by the wayside. they don't really intend to do anything. or they can't figure out what to do to make a difference. >> kathleen, there -- there does seem to be groups like this. i mean, throughout u.s. history. you know, whether it's the kkk, you know, prior to world war ii, there were -- there was an american, you know, fascist movement. there was a nazi party in america. i think there was a rally in madison square garden, if my memory is correct from history. what makes it different, now? i mean, is it just obviously the internet and the connectedness that allows these people to kind of communicate together and spread misinformation and hate? >> yes. this is the place where what seems new to us, actually, has a complex, recent history. this movement came together, including some of the activists that were in those earlier waves, including klansmen, racist skinheads, and parts of

the militia movement in the 1970s and has been active in our nation since then, largely unconfronted and facing only piecemeal kinds of prosecution and public opposition. now, those groups have waged violence on americans, countless times. the record, the casualty count, is overwhelming. and i -- my heart goes out to -- >> do you know what it -- i mean, what do you mean when you say it's overwhelming? >> so, thinking about, say, the casualty count by domestic terror groups, since 1994, including the oklahoma city bombing. we are talking about some [ inaudible ] people. that number is, you know, lower than, say, the death toll from a pandemic but that's 900 people. that's families that lose their loved ones. and it far outstrips the threat posed by the radical left. >> susan, to voters out there who may be undecided about who to vote for in november, i'm just wondering what your message

is -- is -- is to them. or -- or the people -- or to people who are thinking about just staying home. regardless of who they are going to vote for. >> oh, my goodness, no, do not stay home. vote. and when you vote, realize that you are voting for the policies that that person stands for, the judges that they put in place, the executive orders that they write. i mean, you're not just voting for one individual, on one issue. you're voting for a way of life that's going to affect, not only your life but, the lives of your children, your grandchildren, and your great grandchildren. you have to take it all into account. don't wait till november the 3rd. go vote. i voted friday. my husband and i went friday and voted, in person. you can do it. go vote. go vote. go vote. >> susan brow, appreciate your time, tonight. and again, i am sorry for your loss and i appreciate all the work you are doing. i know you have a scholarship --

scholarships in heather's name that you and i have discussed. >> i do. thank you. but please, remember, that most of the victims of white supremacy are not white. most of the victims of white supremacy are people of color. and i'm actually one of the -- the rare cases. they do exist but most of the victims of people of color and, unfortunately, that's why people are refusing to step up and act. everybody, get up and get busy. >> susan, thank you. kathleen, appreciate it. thank you very much. if last night's debate caused heart burn here in the united states, what did foreign governments thing? i will talk, next, with susan rice, president obama's former national security adviser, about that. do i use a toothpaste that whitens my teeth? or one that's good for my teeth? now i don't have to choose. crest 3d white. it removes up to 95% of surface stains. and strengthens enamel. from the number one toothpaste brand in america. crest. stand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis.

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an audience of tens of millions watched the debate here in the united states. there was also large international viewership and just as in this country, the reviews were not particularly kind. especially, about the state of american democracy. and with president trump declining to denounce white supremacist groups. quote, there is a consensus in europe this debate is an indicator of the bad shape of american democracy. joining me now, susan rice, president obama's former national security adviser. she is author of "tough love, my story of the things worth fighting for" now out in paperback. good to see you. before we get to just overall impressions of the debate. did you ever imagine a president of the united states not repudiating, whether it's this proud boys group or just white supremacy and neo-nazis, you

know, racism, full-throatedly without making equivalency arguments, without couching it, without saying stand back but stand by? did you ever expect that in this country? >> well, good evening, anderson. the answer to your question is absolutely not. i mean, it's an extraordinary disgrace. the president of the united states to get on national television, before a global audience, and be absolutely unwilling to renounce white supremacy. he had the opportunity. it was teed up for him. he refused to do it. and there is a reason he refused to do it, anderson. it's not because he got confused or he didn't know who the proud boys are. he did it because he doesn't want to condemn them because he knows they support him. >> yeah. >> and he is aligned, idealogically, with their views.

we have -- i hate to say this -- we have a racist in chief in the white house. and that is, basically, the platform on which he's running. so to repudiate those who share those views, the white-supremacist wing in this society, would be politically disadvantageous to him. which is why he won't. >> you know, i kept thinking, throughout today, you know, a lot of people i have talked to have just been on all sides of the political aisle have just been kind of depressed and grossed out. and just feel sickened by what they witnessed. and i -- and i kept coming back to thinking and i know other people have thought this, before me. but, if this is just a strategy, part of a strategy, i mean, it is who he is. but also, that he wants to, you know, excite his base. but so beat down everybody else in america that percentage of people just won't even go to vote because they are just sick of the whole thing, and don't want to even think about it.

>> well, last night, donald trump's performance was absolutely sickening. that's a fact. but, for many of us, we didn't see anything last night that we didn't already know. that he hadn't demonstrated many, many times before. it was just so bold and so, you know, blatant that -- that it couldn't be denied. but this is who donald trump is. it's not who all his supporters. i want to be very clear about that. this is a segment. and i hope a very small segment and extreme segment of those who are dedicated to him. but one that he is determined to court, at all costs. and the fact that, you know, we have less than unequivocal condemnations of his performance and his refusal to condemn white supremacy for many in his party is also deeply disturbing. >> also, for a president who is obsessed with people not laughing at him and saying countries were laughing at us

when obama was president or when bush was president. the idea of, you know, vladimir putin watching the debate last night, and watching all that's been going on. or erdogan, in turkey, or whomever it is. they are laughing and if they're not laughing, they're at least ecstatic over the state of american democracy, right now. >> well, let's be clear how the rest of the world reacted. our friends and allies, i believe, did a collective face plant of just shame and embarrassment and despair. vladimir putin's doing the happy dance in the kremlin tonight because leaving aside the white supremacy comments or lack of comments about white supremacy. what donald trump did in his unhinged ranting and raving was to discredit civil discourse, disparage the american people, to whom he didn't even give the -- the -- the dignity of serious responses. and to get up and say, before the american people, yet again,

that he will not respect the results of this election. unless, he, himself, is the winner, which is the antithesis of democracy. so vladimir putin's doing the happy dance. and over in beijing, state media is crowing that the debate was chaotic, disorderly, and shows that democracy is a form of government that -- that should be discredited and discarded. and that their form of oppressive authoritarianism is, in fact, correct. so this was a disaster for u.s. global leadership in standing. a disaster delivered by donald trump, yet again. and, you know, when we think about the prospect of two more of these things, i -- i pray, i hope, that, somehow, they can be made to be different. donald trump is not going to change. but perhaps, the format, the rules, and the moderation can change. >> yeah. i mean, somebody's moderated debates, i don't know that that can happen.

you know, i'm -- i mean, maybe, they have some secret that i've never heard of. but it's -- it's not something i think our system is really built to -- to accomplish, frankly. i mean, do you worry about -- >> maybe -- >> sorry, go ahead. >> -- maybe, a trap door under his seat. >> do you worry about -- about democracy, itself? i mean, you know, until i started going to wars overseas and rwanda and all these places, i used to think things are pretty set in stone and the foundations of democracy is -- are strong. and now, i -- i don't think so. i mean, i certainly felt that seeing stuff overseas but i never really thought i would see that and start to feel that here. >> well, i think we're in a fragile moment. i believe that our democracy will endure. but i think we've learned some things from the trump era. we've learned that so much of what we have come to rely on as the guardrails of our democracy are more norms than rules and laws. and when you have an

authoritarian-minded president, and his party in congress refuses to hold him accountable. then, one of the critical checks and balances is lost. and the laws that he violates are not being enforced. and many of the -- the -- the rules he is breaking are actually norms. so we've got to get back to a good look at how we fix those holes in our democracy. >> ambassador rice, appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. >> as the coronavirus death toll moves past 206,000, cnn's dr. sanjay gupta has an exclusive look at a secret group of experts that, first, have to give their approval to any vaccine before it's allowed to proceed for public use.

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provides equal opportunities, levelling the playing field for all of us. vote yes on prop 16. breaking news from the fda tonight. commissioner dr. steven hahn says his agency will not succumb to political pressure from the white house and instead stand by guidelines on vaccine development before granting any vaccine for general use. important, especially because president trump, himself, notably added fuel to the fire when he said he might overrule the agency if it decided to strengthen guidance on any coronavirus vaccine before it became approved. >> mr. president, the fda is reportedly -- stricter guidelines for a covid vaccine. are you okay with that? >> i tell you, we are looking at that. that has to be approved by the

white house. we may or may not approve it. that sounds like a political move. >> before any covid-19 vaccine gets approval, it has to go before a little-known group of experts. a group, before now, hasn't let the general public in on who they are or what they do. dr. sanjay gupta with his exclusive report on the group and the work they do. >> reporter: if and when a vaccine is made available, may not be up to the president, alone. or even the fda, for that matter. because there is a small, secretive group that sees the vaccine data, before anyone else. >> this all gets decided by a group called a data and safety monitoring board. >> reporter: the dsmb, as it is known, is a group of experts in all sorts of areas like statistics, ethics, vaccine development. they are the only ones to get a few, quote, unblinded looks at the data, as it starts to come in. >> they know who got the vaccine, who got the placebo. they are the ones who figure out whether it's time to say this is working. that's not a political decision.

>> reporter: they are the ones that can advise the companies to apply for fda review. or they might bring a trial to a halt. and right now, they have one of the most monumental tasks in the world. >> we want to know they're fully independent, that they have no prior, you know, relationships with the company. so they're not conflicted, in any way. >> reporter: the members of the board do go through a fairly exhaustive vetting process. but these are, perhaps, the biggest questions. can the dsmb be trusted? do they have financial or political conflicts? can they be pressured? >> what they don't want is their members of their committee being besieged by outside people trying to find out what's going on in the trials. >> reporter: typically, their names remain confidential while the study is ongoing. but susan ellenberg, who serves on covid-19 dsmb's agreed to talk to us. >> how would you characterize the power of this board? >> i don't think you feel powerful. you feel responsible.

you know that everybody's trusting you with these data. >> when you are looking at data, i think there is always a perception, certainly among lay people, that it's totally objective. is it, really, that objective? >> of course, there is some degree of subjectivity. it's a judgment call. and -- and that's the way these committees work. >> i don't see any reason why it should be delayed further. >> the fda basically said it's very reasonable to wait and observe for two months before authorizing anything. the president has said, you know, they may not approve those guidelines. so, what happens, then? what's the role of the dsmb in a situation like this? >> we've certainly never been in a situation where the national leadership has seemed to be so involved, directly involved, in these kinds of processes. what will happen? i -- i don't -- i don't know. >> it was a dsmb that made the call to pause the astrazeneca trial, when a previously healthy, 37-year-old woman, developed a neurological condition in the uk.

and it was a critical decision. >> on an adverse event that happens as infrequently as one in 10,000 people or one in 20,000 people. that would be a lot of people, who would have a serious, adverse event. >> the country's top doctors assure they won't be cutting any corners on safety. but for >> i think we are in an unchartered territory. who knows what the administration is going to do. >> sanjay gupta joins us now. while politics is disruptive, politics is undermining the public's confidence. do you think politics can stay out of the vaccine process? >> after doing this piece and

talking to people for several months, i think so. there is clearly a lot of pressure. this is unchartered territory. because you do have this other organization that's removed from the fda and the executive branch of government, they're doing their own work largely confidential. as you heard i think it does offer a layer of protection that's important as you point it out as well, anderson, steven haun says the fda is not going to be pressured. >> live pictures of rallies. is that accurate? no one gotten sick, can an in-door rally and -- what do you make of the president saying

they had no problem? >> first of all, because we still have so many new viral infections everyday in this country, contact tracing is something and we talk about it all the time. it is incredibly hard to do. how do you contact tracing 40,000 people everyday and the people who got infected don't have any idea where they contracted it as a result. it is better outside, the virus are dispersed outside but you are closely clustered. you are there for long duration. if you are walking by one thing, you are sitting next to people, and obviously anderson, very few masks out there. while we may not know because contact tracing is so challenging. >> sanjay, appreciate it.

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since last night's debate, we are wondering what happens now? there are still undecided voters. after last night's debate, we spoke to a group of undecided voters. we should point out one of them is a registered republican to

vote in the primaries. were any of them swayed after the show down? >> reporter: these five undecided voters from the state of michigan, pennsylvania, florida and iowa. >> it was kind of disrespectful. it was hard to watch. >> it was a hot mess. >> it felt like two children fighting. >> it was just cringe worthy from the moment it started. >> reporter: when trump refused to condemn a far white group. how did you feel in that moment? >> there is only one answer to that question is ucoyou condemn. >> reporter: erika deangelo voted for trump in 2016 had a different view. >> i think he did condemn the white supremacist group and used similar language of what the moderator used.

>> as long as he did not break any laws, i am fine with it. >> if he's paid millions of dollars in taxes. why didn't it show up? >> reporter: was the president's tax bill an issue for you? is that a hang up for you? >> that's a hang up for me, sure. >> reporter: did you feel donald trump did a good job handling the pandemic. >> it already been proven he didn't. >> reporter: he said the vaccine is weeks away, did you buy that? >> no, not at all. >> reporter: biden didn't give any tangible things that he would or could do for the pandemic. everyone in the group was turn off ed off by trump's behavior. >> reporter: trump was your candidate, how did you think he did? >> totally rude and

disrespectful. >> reporter: this michigan voter talking about the empty chair at the table. >> that was a good moment. he did a little bit about his son, good to see him defend his son. those were the moments that joe biden shines. >> how are they helping small businesses getsiting back to thr feet. nobody is talking about that. >> reporter: are you more confused than ever? >> yes. it makes me not want to vote. >> i considered not voting after this debate. ultimately i am going to vote. my ballot is waiting for me. >> i am going to be undecided until the day before i walk into the voting poll. >>