spot. >> i'm happy that it seems everybody is wearing their masks their their seats. but those atmospherics are going to really frame this debate. the job for the pence side is going to be, how do you get the attention off of covid and on to some other things? >> with plexiglass right there. >> we're already seeing pence signaling, he's going to be aiming for something that could be a weakness for kamala harris. foreign policy, he's nshe's not experienced as he's become. >> talking to sources in both camps, of course coronavirus is the other kind of entity on the stage there, unfortunately. and things have changed a lot since the president and his wife and so many other people in the white house have gotten covid. but when it comes to the substance of what they've been

preparing on both sides, it hasn't changed that much. kamala harris was always planning on hitting coronavirus particularly hard, particularly that he's the head of the coronavirus task force. he has culpability. and he was always planning on hitting her on the radical left positions, whether or not that's true, and other things like law and order. i think we'll hear a lot of those issues come up, despite the fact that it feels like we're in such a different world in washington. >> and we're all living through coronavirus, right? we all have kids doing remote education, we have parents that we haven't seen in months. and there are questions that senator harris could ask mike pence that we can't get answers to. vice president pence, when did president trump last test negative? because that's relevant, because

he's been traveling all over the country, including at the debate a week ago, and in minnesota, in new jersey, in ohio. when did he test negative last? because that's how we contact trace? why are you violating cdc guidelines? >> why aren't you wearing a mask ever? >> you're the head of the coronavirus task force. >> i do think this was brought up a little bit earlier in the program, talking about kamala harris as a woman, speaking for women. this is the election, potentially 30% gender gap. one of the reasons for that is the perception among woman, she will be tapping into her sense as a stepmom, an aunt, a woman herself, that will be the challenge pence has to face.

he can't just bat it away. >> let's throw it back to wolf. >> guys, thank you. the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020 in the shadow of the coronavirus, a very deadly pandemic. and president trump's own infection, the vice president, mike pence, and senator kamala harris, they're set to take the stage for what is going to be a truly, truly historic exchange. perhaps the most important and significant vice presidential debate in american history. in the midst of a very, very significant crisis election. here's susan page from "usa today." >> good evening. from the university of utah in salt lake city, welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020.

i'm susan page of "usa today." it is my honor to moderate this debate, an important part of our democracy. in kingsbury hall, we have a socially distanced audience, and everyone is required to wear a face mask, and the candidates will be required to sit 12 feet apart. the audience has agreed to express enthusiasm at the end and now, when i introduce them. please welcome california senator harris and vice president mike pence. [ cheers and applause ] >> thank you.

>> senator harris and vice president pence, thank you for being here. we're meeting as president trump and the first lady continue to undergo treatment in washington after testing positive for covid-19. we send our thoughts and prayers to them for their rapid and complete recovery. and for the recovery of everyone afflicted by the coronavirus. the two campaigns and the commission on presidential debates have agreed to the ground rules for tonight. i'm here to enforce them. one note, no one is either campaign or at the commission or anywhere else has been told in advance what topics i'll raise or what questions i'll ask. this debate will be divided into nine segments of about ten

minutes. i'll begin by asking a question, sometimes the same one, sometimes a different one on the same topic. you will have two minutes to answer without interruption by me or the other candidate. then we'll take six minutes to discuss, and then we'll move on to the next topic. we want a debate that is lively. but americans also deserve a discussion that is civil. these are tumultuous times, but we can and will have a respectful exchange. let's begin with the ongoing pandemic that has cost our country so much. senator harris, the coronavirus is not under control. over the past week, johns hopkins reports that 39 satates have had more covid cases over the past seven days than the

week before. ev even if a vaccine is released soon, the next administration will face hard choices. what will a biden administration do that a trump administration would not do? you have two minutes to respond without interruption. >> thank you, susan. the american people have witn s witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. and here are the facts. 210,000 dead people in our country. over 7 million people have contracted the disease. 1 in 5 businesses closed. we're looking at front line workers who have been treated like sacrificial workers. over 30 million people who in the last several months had to

file for unemployment. and here's the thing. on january 28th, the vice president and the president were informed about the nature of this pandemic. they were informed it's lethal in consequence, it's airborne, it will affect young people, and it will be contracted because it's airborne. they knew what was happening, and they didn't tell you. can you imagine if you knew on january 28th, as opposed to march 13th, what they knew, what you might have done to prepare? they knew and they covered it up. the president said it was a hoax. they minimized the seriousness of it. the president said, you're on one side of his ledger if you wear a mask, and on the other side if you don't. in spite of all of that, they still don't have a plan.

joe biden does. and our plan is about what we need to do around a national strategy. contact tracing, testing, administration of the vaccine, and making sure that it will be free for all. that is the plan that joe biden has and that i have, knowing that we have to get ahold of what has been going on. and we need to save our country and joe biden is the best leader to do that. and frankly, this administration has forfeited their right to re-election based on this. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, more than 210,000 americans have died of covid-19 since february. the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population is higher than almost every other wealthy nation on earth. our death rate is 2 1/2 times that of canada. you head the administration's coronavirus task force. why is the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population higher than that of almost every

other wealthy country? you have two minutes to respond without interruption. >> thank you, and i want to thank the commission and the university of utah for hosting this event. and senator harris, it's a privilege to be on the stage with you. our nation has gone through a very challenging time this year. but i want the american people to know, from the very first day, president donald trump has put the health of america first. before there were more than five cases in the united states, all people who had returned from china, president donald trump did what no other american president had ever done. he suspended all travel from china, the second largest economy in the world. joe biden opposed that position, he said it was xenophobic and hysterical. i can say, that decision alone

by president trump bought us invaluable time to stand up the greatest national mobilization since world war ii. we were able to reinvent testing, more than 115 million tests have been done to date. we were able to see to the delivery of billions of supplies for our doctors and nurses. and we began before the month of february was over to develop a vaccine and therapeutics. and under president trump's leadership, we'll have tens of millions of doses of the vaccine this year. the biden plan reads an awful lot like what we've been doing every step of the way. and quite frankly, when i look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new ppe, developing a vaccine.

it looks a little bit like plagiarism, which is something joe biden knows a little bit about. >> thank you, mr. vice president. >> i believe with my heart, they can be proud of the sacrifices they've made. >> senator harris, would you like to respond? >> absolutely. whatever the vice president is claiming the administration has done, clearly it hasn't worked. when you're looking at over 210,000 dead bodies in our country, american lives, families grieving that loss. and, you know, the vice president is the head of the task force. and knew on january 28th how serious this was. and thanks to bob woodward, we learned they knew about it, and then that was exposed, the vice president said, when asked, why didn't y'all tell anybody? he said because the president wanted people to remain calm.

>> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> i have to weigh in. >> you have 15 more seconds. >> i want to ask the american people, how calm were you when you were panicked about where you were going to get your next roll of toilet paper? how calm were you when your kids were sent home from school? >> thank you, senator harris. let's give vice president pence a chance to respond. you have one minute. >> there's not a day gone by that i haven't thought about an american family that has lost a loved one. i want you to know, you'll always be in our hearts and our prayers. but when you say what the american people have done over the last six to eight months hasn't worked, that's a great disservice to what they've done. the reality is, dr. fauci said,

everything he told the president in the oval office, the president told the american people. president trump has boundless confidence in the american people, and he always said we'd get through this together. when you say it hasn't worked, when dr. fauci and our experts came to us in the second week of march, when they said if the president didn't shut down the economy, we could lose 2.2 million americans, that's the reality. they said if we did everything right, we could still lose 200,000 americans. one life lost is too many. but the american people deserve credit for the sacrifices they've made, putting the health of their family and their neighbors first. our doctors, nurses -- >> thank you, vice president pence. you were in the front row in a rose garden event 11 days ago. what seems to have been a

superspreader event. no social distancing. few masks. and now a cluster of coronavirus cases among those who were there. how can you expect americans to follow the administration's safety guidelines to protect themselves from covid when you at the white house have not been doing so? >> well, the american people have demonstrated over the last eight months that when given the facts, they're willing to put the health of others first. president trump and i have great confidence in the american people. and their ability to take that information and put it into practice. in the height of the epidemic, when we were losing a heartbreaking number, 2,500 americans a day, we surged resources to new jersey and new york and new orleans and detroit. we told the american people what needed to be done. and the american people made the sacrifices. when the outbreak in the sun belt happened this summer,

again, americans stepped forward. but the reality is, the work of the president of the united states goes on. a vacancy in the the supreme court has opened up. and that rose garden event, there's been a great deal of speculation about it. my wife and i were honored to be there. many people there were tested for coronavirus, and it was an outdoor event which all of our scientists regularly and routinely advise. the difference here, president trump and i trust the american people to make choices in the best interests of their health. joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates and not just mandates with the coronavirus, but a government takeover of health care. >> thank you. thank you, vice president pence. >> all government control. we're about freedom and respecting the freedom of the american people. >> let's talk about respecting the american people. you respect the american people

when you tell them the truth. you respect the american people when you have the courage to be a leader, speaking of those things you may not want people to hear, but they need to hear so they can protect themselves. but this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent or a worker, if you didn't have enough money saved up, you're standing in a food line because of the ineptitude of an administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the american people. let's talk about caring about the american people. they've had to sacrifice far too much about the incompetence of this administration. the american people were not equipped with the information they needed. >> kamala harris, senator harris, i'm sorry. >> that's fine, i'm kamala. >> you're senator harris to me. for life to get back to normal,

dr. anthony fauci and other experts say that most of the people that can be vaccinated need to be vaccinated. most of the american people say they wouldn't take a vaccine if it came out now. if the trump administration releases a vaccine, would you take it? >> if dr. fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, i'll be the first in line to take it. the absolu absolutely. but if donald trump tells us to take it, i'm not taking it. >> vice president pence, there have been a lot of repercussions from the pandemic. that's our second topic tonight, the role of the vice president. one of you will make history on january 20th. you will be the vice president to the oldest president the united states has ever had. donald trump will be 74 years old on inauguration day.

joe biden will be 78 years old. that has already raised concerns among some voters, concerns that have been sharpened by president trump's hospitalization in recent days. vice president pence, have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with president trump about safeguards or procedures when it comes to presidential disability? if not, do you think you should? you have two minutes. >> thank you. i would like to go back -- >> i think we need to move on. >> i would like to go back. the reality is, we're going to have a vaccine in record time, in less than a year. unheard-of time. we have five companies in phase three clinical trials, and we're producing tens of millions of doses. so the fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if the vaccine emerges

during the trump administration is unconscionable. stop playing politics with people's lives. the reality is, we will have a vaccine, we believe, before the end of this year. and it will have the capacity to save countless american lives. your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is unacceptable. and let me also say, the reality is, when you talk about failure in this administration, we do know what failure looks like in a pandemic. it was 2009. the swine flu arrived in the united states. thankfully, it ended up not being as lethal as the coronavirus. but before the end of the year, when joe biden was vice president of the united states, not 7 1/2 million people contracted the swine flu, 60 million americans contracted the

swine flu. if the swine flu had been as lethal as the coronavirus, in 2009, when joe biden was vice president, we would have lost 2 million american lives. his own chief of staff would say last year that it was pure luck that they did, quote, everything possible wrong. and we learned from that. they left the strategic national stockpile empty, and an empty and hollow plan. >> mr. vice president, you're time is up. i'm sorry, your time is up. >> please stop undermining confidence in a vaccine. >> let me ask you the same question, have you had a conversation, or reached an agreement with vice president biden about safeguards or procedures when it comes to presidential disability. and if not, if you win the election next month, do you

think you should? you have two minutes. >> let me tell you, first of all, the day i got the call from joe biden, it was actually a zoom call. asking me to serve with him on this ticket. it was probably one of the most memorable days of my life. you know, i thought about my mother. who came to the united states at the age of 19. gave birth to me at the age of 25 in oakland, california. and the thought that i would be sitting here right now, i know would make her proud. she must be looking down on this. you know, joe and i were raised in a very similar way. we were raised with values that are about hard work, about the value and dignity of public service, and about the importance of fighting for the dignity of all people. i think joe asked me to serve with him because i have a career that included being elected the first woman district attorney in

san francisco, where i created models of innovation for law enforcement in terms of reform of the criminal justice system. i was elected the first woman of color and black woman to be elected attorney general of the state of california, where i ran the second largest department of justice in the united states, second only to the united states department of justice. there i took on everything from transnational criminal organizations to the big banks taking advantage of homeowners, to for profit colleges taking advantage of veterans. now i serve in the united states senate as only the second black woman, on the senate intelligence committee, where i've been in regular receipt of information, i've traveled the world, met with our soldiers in war zones, and i think joe has asked me to serve with him because he knows that we share, we share a purpose which is aboutying our country around ou

common values and principles. >> thank you, senator harris. neither president trump nor vice president biden has released detailed health information that had become the modern norm until 2016. and president trump's doctors have given misleading answers or not answered regarding his health. is this information voters deserve to know? vice president pence, would you like to go first? >> well, susan, thank you. let me say on behalf of the president and the first lady, how moved we've all been by the outpouring of prayers and concern for the president. and i do believe it's emblematic of the prayers and concern for every american impacted by the

coronavirus. but the care the president received at walter reed hospital by the white house doctors was exceptional. and the transparency they've practiced all the way will capit continue. the american people have the right to know about the health and well being of their president. and i'm extremely grateful. i was more than a little moved by the broad and bipartisan support. i want to thank you, senator, and joe biden, for your support. and i want to congratulate you on the historic nature of your nomination. >> thank you. >> i never expected to be on the stage four years ago. i know the feeling. but the reality is, we have an election before the american people in the midst of this year. and the choice has never been clearer. >> i want to give senator harris a chance to respond, do voters

have a right to know more detailed health information about presidents and candidates? >> absolutely. that's why joe biden has been so incredibly transparent, and certainly by contrast that the president has not. not just health records, but let's look at taxes. we now know that donald trump paid $750 in taxes. when i first heard about it, i said, you mean $750,000? no, $750. we now know donald trump owes and is in debt for $400 million and just so everyone is clear, when we say in debt, it means you owe money to somebody. it would be really good to know who the president of the united states, the commander in chief, owes money to. because the american people have a right to know what is

influencing the president's decisions. and is he making those decisions on the best interests of the american people, of you, or self-interest. susan, i'm glad you asked about transparency. it has to be across the board. joe has been incredibly transparent, over many, many years. the one thing we all know about joe, he puts it all out there. he is honest, he's forthright. but donald trump has been about covering up everything. >> thank you, senator harris. i want to give you a chance to respond, vice president. >> i respect the fact that joe biden spent 47 years in public life. i respect your public service as well. the american people have a president who a businessman, a job creator. he's paid tens of millions of dollar in taxes, payroll, property taxes. creating tens of thousands of

american jobs. the president said the reports are not accurate. he's released stacks of financial disclosures, the american people can review just as the law allows. but the distinction is that joe biden, 47 years in public service, compared to president donald trump, who brought all of that experience four years ago. >> thank you, vice president. >> turned the economy around by rolling back regulationregulati cutting fair trade. >> thank you, vice president pence. you know, that's a good segue into our third topic, the economy. this has been another aspect of life for americans affected by the coronavirus. we have a jobs crisis brewing. on friday, the unemployment rate declin declined, but job growth has stalled. hundreds of thousands of

discouraged workers have stopped looking for work. nearly 11 million jobs have not been replaced. senator harris, the biden/harris campaign has proposed new programs to boost the economy. you would pay for that by raising $4 trillion in taxes on wealt wealthy individuals. some warn that could curb growth. would raising taxes put the recovery at risk? you have two minutes to answer. >> thank you. on the issue of the economy, i think there couldn't be a more fundamental difference between donald trump and joe biden. joe biden believes you measure the health and strength of america's economy based on the strength and health of the american worker and the american family. on the other hand, donald trump

measures the strength of the american economy based on how rich people are doing. so he had a tax cut that lead to a $2 trillion deficit that the american people will have to pay for. on day one, joe biden will repeal that tax bill, and what he'll do with the money is invest it in the american people. through a plan that is about investing in infrastructure, something he said he would do. i don't think it ever happened. but joe biden will do that, upgrade the roads and bridges, investing in clean and renewable energy. joe will invest that money in what we need to do around innovation. there was a time when our country believed in science and invested in research and development. he will use that money to invest

in education. for folks that want to go to a two-year community college, it will be free. if you come from a family that makes less than $125,000, you'll go to a public university for f free. and we'll cut student loan debt by $25,000. it's about investing in the people of our country as opposed to passing a tax bill which had the benefit of american corporations going offshore to do their business. >> thank you. your administration has been predicting a rapid and robust economy. but the latest report shows that is not happening. should the american public be braced for something that will take two years or more? >> when president trump took office, america had gone through the slowest economic recovery since the great depression.

president trump cut taxes across the board. despite what senator harris says, the average american family of four had $2,000 in savings in taxes. and with the rising wages that occurred, most predominantly for blue-collar, hardworking americans, the average household income went up more than $4,000 for a family of four. and on day one, joe biden is going to raise your taxes. it's really remarkable to think. right after a time where we're going through a pandemic that lost 22 million jobs at the height, we've already added back 11.6 million jobs because we had a president who cut taxes, rolled back regulations, fought for fair trade, and freed up trillions of dollars to make

direct payments to the american people. we've spared no expense. joe biden and kamala harris want to raise taxes, bury our economy over a $2 trillion green new deal. they want to abolish fossil fuels, and ban fracking. and joe biden wants to go whaba to the economic surrender with china. and joe biden wants to repeal all of the tariffs that president trump put into effec to fight for american jobs and workers. j the american economy and comeback is on the ballot. with four more years of growth

and opportunity, 2021 will be the biggest economic year in the history of this country. >> thank you, vice president pence. senator harris? >> i think this is supposed to be a debate on fact and truth. and joe biden said he will not raise taxes on anybody making lower than $400,000. >> joe biden said twice he's going to repeat the trump tax cuts. that was tax cuts that gave the average working family $2,000 and a tax break every single year. that's the math. >> it's absolutely not true. >> is he only going to repeal part of the trump tax cuts. >> if you don't mind letting me finish, we can have a conversation. >> please. >> okay. joe biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. he's been very clear. he will not end fracking.

he's been very clear about that. joe biden is the one who, during the great recession, was responsible for the recovery act that brought america back. and now the trump/pence administration wants to take credit, when they rode the co coattails of the previous administration's success. joe biden did that. on the other hand, you have donald trump, who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the great depression. on the one hand, you have joe biden. who was responsible with president barack obama for the affordable care act, which brought health care to over 20 million americans and protected people with pre-existing conditions. and it also saved those families who otherwise were going bankrupt because of hospital

bills. on the other hand, donald trump is in court trying to get rid of the affordable care act, which means that you will lose protections if you have pre-existing conditions. and this is very important, susan. >> yes, but we need to give vice president pence -- >> he interrupted me, and i'd like to just finish, please. if you have a pre-existing condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. if you love someone with a pre-existing condition, they're coming for you. if you're under the age of 26 on your parents' coverage, they're coming for you. >> senator harris, thank you. i want to give you a chance to respond. >> obama care was a disaster. president trump and i have a plan to improve health care and protect pre-existing conditions for every american. but senator harris, you're excite entitled to your own

opinion, but not your own facts. joe biden said, i guarantee that we will abolish fossil fuels. more taxes, more regulation, banning fracking, abolishing fossil fuel, crushing american energy, economic surrender to china is a prescription for american decline. the "v"-shaped recovery will continue with four more years of donald trump in the white house. >> you've provided the perfect segue to a new topic, climate change. vice president pence, this year we've seen record-setting

hurricanes in the south. another one, hurricane delta, is now threatening the gulf. we've seen record-setting wildfires in the west. do you believe, as the scientific community as concluded, that man-made climate change has made wildfires bigger, hotter, and more deadly, and has made hurricanes wetter, slower, and more damaging? you have two minutes. >> thank you, susan. first, i'm very proud of our record on the environment and on conservation. according to all of the best estimates, our air and land are cleaner than any time ever recorded. our water is among the cleanest in the world. just a little while ago, the president signed the outdoors act, the largest investment in public land and public parks in 100 years. president trump has made a commitment to conservation and to the environment. with regard to climate change, the climate is changing. the issue is, what is the cause,

and what do we do about it? president trump has made it clear, we're going to continue to listen to the science. now, joe biden and kamala harris would put us back in the paris climate accord. they would impose the green new deal, which would crush american energy, would increase the energy costs of american families in their homes and literally would crush american jobs. president trump and i believe that the progress that we have made in a cleaner environment has been happening precisely because we have a strong free market economy. what is remarkable, the united states has reduced co2 more than the countries that are still in the paris climate accord. but we've done it through innovation, and through natural gas and fracking. which, senator, the american people, you can go look at the record, i know joe biden says otherwise now, as you do, but the both of you repeatedly

committed to abolishing fossil fuel and banning fracking. with american innovation, we're steering toward a stronger and better environment. with regard to wildfires, we believe forest management has to be front and center. even governor newsom agrees that we need to have better forest management. and as difficult as they are, there are no more hurricanes today than 100 years ago. >> thank you, mr. vice president pence, you're time is up. >> and president trump and i are always going to put american jobs and american workers first. >> senator harris, you co-sponsored the green new deal in congress. but vice president biden said last week, he does not support the green new deal. but if you look at your campaign

website, it describes the green new deal as a crucial framework. what would be the stance of a biden/harris administration towards a green new deal? you have two minutes. >> first of all, i will repeat, and the american people know, that joe biden will not ban fracking. that is a fact. that is a fact. i will repeat that joe biden has been very clear that he thinks about growing jobs, which is why he will not increase taxes for anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. joe biden's economic plan, moody's says it will create 7 million more jobs than donald trump's. and part of those jobs that will be created by joe biden are going to be about clean energy and renewable energy. because you see, joe understands that the west coast of our

country is burning. including my home state of california. joe sees what is happening in the gulf states, which are being battered by storms. he has seen and talked with the farmers in iowa, whose entire crops have been destroyed because of floods. so joe believes, again, in science. i'll tell you something, susan. i served when i first got to the senate on the committee responsible for the environment. this administration took the word science off of the website. and then took the phrase climate change off of the website. this -- we've seen a pattern with this administration, which is they don't believe in science. and joe's plan is about saying, we're going to deal with it. but we're also going to create jobs. donald trump, when asked about the wildfires in california, and the question was, the science is telling us this. he said, science doesn't know. so let's talk about who is prepared to lead our country over the course of the next four years on what is an existential

threat to us as human beings. joe is saying, we're going to invest in renewable energy, create millions of jobs. we'll achieve net zero emissions by 2050, carbon neutral by 2025. we'll re-enter the climate agreement with pride. >> senator harris just said climate change is an existential threat. do you believe that, vice president pence? >> as i said, susan, the climate is changing. we'll follow the science. but once again, senator harris is denying the fact they're going to raise taxes on every american. joe biden said twice last week, on day one, he was going to repeal the trump tax cuts. those tax cuts delivered $2,000

in tax relief to the average family of four across america. with regard to banning fracking, i recommend people look at the record. you were the first senate co-sponsor of green new deal. while joe biden denied the green new deal, susan, thank you for pointing out, it's on their campaign website. and as "usa today" said, it's essentially the same plan as you co-sponsored with aoc in the senate. and the senator said she'll resubmit america to the paris climate accord. the american people have always cherished our environment. we'll continue to cherish it. we've made great progress, reducing co2 emissions. we don't need a massive $2 trillion green new deal with new mandates on american businesses and american families. >> thank you. thank you, vice president pence.

>> it makes no sense, it will cost jobs. president trump -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> he's going to put america first, he will put jobs first, and take care of our environment. >> let's talk about that. the vice president earlier said it's what he thinks as an accomplishment that the president's trade war with china. you lost that trade war. you lost it. what ended up happening is because of a so-called trade war with china, america lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. farmers have experienced bankruptcy because of it. we are in a manufacturing recession because of it. and when we look at where this administration has been, there are estimates that by the end of the term of this administration, they will have lost more jobs than almost any other

presidential administration. and the american people know what i'm talking about. you know. i think about 20-year-olds, we have a 20-year-old. 20-something-year-old, coming out of high school and college right now. you're wondering, will there be a job for me? people are trying to figure out how they're going to pay rent by the end of the month. almost half of american renters are worried about whether they'll be able to pay rent by the end of the month. this is where the economy is in america right now. and it is because of the catastrophe and failure of leadership of this administration. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you 15 seconds to respond. >> i'd love to respond. lost the trade war with china? joe biden never fought it. joe biden has been a cheerleader for communist china over the last several decades.

and senator harris, you're entitled to your opinion, not your own facts. we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs when joe biden was vice president, and president obama said we would need a magic want to bring them back. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> this administration saw 500,000 manufacturing jobs created. and that's the kind of growth we'll see as we come through the pandemic. the green new deal, the mandates, the paris climate accord will kill jobs. >> 15 seconds and then we'll move on. >> thank you. joe biden is responsible for saving america's auto industry. and you voted against it. so let's set the record straight. thank you. >> i'd like to talk about china. we have no more complicated or consequential foreign relationship than the one with

china. it is a huge market for american agricultural goods. it's a potential partner in dealing with climate change in north korea. and president trump blamed it for the coronavirus, saying china will pay. vice president pence, how would you describe our fundamental relati relationship with china? you have two minutes. >> thank you, susan. before i leave that, let me speak to voting records, if i can. you know, everybody knows that nafta caused literally thousands of american factories to close. automotive jobs going south of the border. president trump fought to renegotiate nafta, and senator kamala harris was one of only ten members to vote against the

usmca. it was a huge win for auto workers and farmers, but senator, you said it didn't go far enough on climate change. that you put your radical environmental agenda ahead of american auto workers and ahead of american jobs. the american people deserve to know that. it's probably why "newsweek" said that kamala harris was the most liberal member of the united states senate in 2019. with regard to china, susan, first and foremost, china is to blame for the coronavirus. and president trump is not happy about it. he's made that very clear. made it clear again today. china and the world health organization did not play straight with the american people. they did not let our personnel

in until the middle of february. fortunate, president trump, in dealing with china from the outset, standing up to china, that has been taking advantage of america for decades, in the wake of joe biden's cheerleading for china, president trump suspended all travel from china. and the american people deserve to know, joe biden opposed president trump's decision to suspend all travel from china. >> vice president pence, your time is up. thank you, vice president pence. >> we want to improve the relationship, but we're going to hold china accountable for what they did to america with the coronavirus. >> thank you. senator harris, let me ask you the same question. how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china? competitors, at adversaries?

>> susan, the trump administration's approach to china has resulted in the loss of american lives, american jobs, and america's standing. there's a weird obsession that president trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by president obama and vice president biden. for example, they created within the white house an office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics. they got rid of it. >> not true. >> there was a team of disease experts that president obama and vice president biden dispatched to china to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen. they pulled them out. we now are looking at 210,000 americans who have lost their

lives. let's look at the jobs situation. we mentioned before, the trade deal, the trade war, they wanted to call it, with china. it resulted in the loss of over 300 manufacturing jobs, and a manufacturing recession. and the american consumer paying more for goods because of that failed war, as they called it. and let's talk about standing. pew, a reputable research firm has done an analysis that shows that leaders of all of our formerly allied countries have now decided they hold in greater esteem and respect the head of the chinese communist party than they do donald trump, the president of the united states, the commander in chief of the united states. this is where we are today. because of a failure of leadership by this administration.

>> senator harris, we've seen changes in the role of the united states in terms of global leadership over the past four years. and times do change. what is your definition, we've seen strains with china, as the vice president mentioned. we've seen strain with our traditional allies in nato and elsewhere. what is your definition of the role of american leadership in 2020? >> i love talking with joe about a lot of these issues. joe says foreign policy may sound complicated, but it's just relationships. just think about it as relationships. we know this in our personal and professional relationships. you got to keep your word to your friends, people who have been loyal to you, stand with them. know who your adversaries are

and keep them in check. what we've seen with donald trump, he's betrayed our friends and embraced dictators around the world. let's take, for example, russia. so i serve on the intelligence committee of the united states senate. america's intelligence community told us russia interfered in the 2016 election, and is playing with 2020. the director of the fbi said the same. by donald tru but donald trump prefers to take the word of vladimir putin over them. and we've walked away from agreements. the iran nuclear deal, we're now in a position where we're less safe because they're building up what might be a significant nuclear arsenal.

we were in that deal with friends, with allies around the country. because of donald trump's unilateral approach to foreign policy, coupled with his isolationism, he pulled us out and has made america less safe. so, it's about relationships. and the thing that has always been part of the strength of our nation, in addition to our great military, has been that we keep our word. but donald trump doesn't understand that. because he doesn't understand what it means to be honest. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you a chance to respond. >> thank you. president trump kept his word when we moved the american embassy to jerusalem, the capitol of the state of israel. when joe biden was vice president, he promised to do that, but they never did. president trump has been loyal but he's also been demanding. we've strengthened alliances

across the asia pacific, and we've stood strong against those who would do us harm. when president trump came into office, isis had captured an area of the middle east the size of pennsylvania. president trump unleashed the american military, and we destroyed them and took down their leader without one american casualty. al bag dadhdadi was responsible the death of thousands. and our hearts are with the parents of kayla miller. they're here with us today in salt lake city. their killers were brought to justice in the united states. the reality is, when joe biden was vice president, we had an opportunity to save kayla

miller. it breaks my heart to reflect on it, but the military came into the oval office. presented a plan, said they knew where kayla was. he held her for 18 months, abused her. but they hesitated for a month. when the armed forces went in, it was clear that she had been moved two days earlier. and her family believes if donald trump had been president, she would be alive today. we destroyed the isis caliphate. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> president donald trump got us out of the deal. when soleimani was traveling to baghdad to do harm to americans, president donald trump took him out. >> thank you, vice president

pence. >> america is safer, and our allies are safer. >> i would like to give senator harris a chance to respond. but not at such great length. >> i would like equal time. >> yes. please go ahead. >> thank you. first of all, to the mueller family, i know about your daughter's case, and i'm so sorry. i'm so sorry. what happened to her is awful. and it should have never happened. and i know joe feels the same way. and i know that president obama feels the same way. but you mentioned soleimani. let's start there. so after the strike on soleimani, there was a counter-strike on our troops in iraq. and they suffered serious brain injuries and do you know what donald trump dismissed them as?

headaches. this is about a pattern of donald trump's, where he has referred to our men who are serving in our military as suckers and losers. donald trump, who went to arlington cemetery and stood above the graves of our fallen heroes and said, what's in it for them? because of course, he only thinks about what is in it for him. let's take what he said about john mccain, a great american hero. and donald trump says he doesn't deserve to be called a hero, because he was a prisoner of war. and this is very important. when you want to talk about who is the current commander in chief. and what they care about, and what they don't care about. public recoporting that russia d

bounties on the heads of american soldiers. a bounty is somebody puts a price on your head, and they'll pay it if you're killed. and donald trump had talked at least six times to vladimir putin and never brought up the subject. joe biden would never do that. >> thank you. >> joe biden -- but joe biden would hold russia to account for any threat to our nation's security or to our troops who are sacrificing their lives for the sake of our democracy and safety. >> thank you, senator harris. this is such an important issue, but we have other important issues. >> i really have to respond to that. look, she has -- >> 15 seconds. >> i have to have more than that. >> i'm sorry, vice president pence, you've had more time than she's had so far. >> the slanders against donald trump are absurd.

my son is a captain in the marine corps, my son is a captain in the united states navy. the sons and daughters serving in our military, president donald trump not only respects but reveres them. any other suggestion is ridiculous. the american people deserve to know -- >> excuse me. i did not create the rules for tonight. your campaigns agreed to the rules with the commission on presidential debates. i'm here to enforce them. giving roughly equal time to both of you. >> go right ahead. >> i want to go ahead and move to the next topic, which is an important one, as the last topic was. and that is the supreme court. on monday, the senate judiciary committee is scheduled to open hearings on amy coney barrett.

senator harris, you'll be there. her confirmation would cement the court's conservative majority. access to abortion would then be up to the states if roe v. wade was overturned. vice president pence, would you respond? >> the american people should know, soleimani was responsible for the death of hundreds of american service members. when the opportunity came, we saw him headed to baghdad to kill more americans. president trump didn't hesitate and soleimani is gone. but you deserve to know, joe biden and kamala harris actually criticized the decision to take

out soleimani. it's really inexplicable. but with regard to joe biden, it's explainable. he opposed the assault on bin laden. now, with regard to the supreme court of the united states, let me say, president trump and i could not be more enthusiastic about the opportunity to see judge amy coney barrett become justice amy coney barrett. she's a brilliant woman, and she will bring a lifetime of experience and a sizable american family to the supreme court of the united states. and our hope is in the hearing next week, unlike justice kavanaugh received from you and others, we hope she gets a fair hearing. and we particularly hope we don't see the kind of attacks on

her christian faith that we saw before. the democrat chairman of the judiciary committee, when judge barrett was being confirmed for the court of appeals was concerned that the dogma of her faith lived loudly in her. dick durbin said it was a concern. i know one of our nominees was attacked by you for being a member of the knights of columbus. >> thank you, vice president pence. thank you. senator harris, you're the senator from and former attorney general of california. let me ask you a parallel question. if roe v. wade is overturned, would you want your state to enact no restrictions on

abortion? you have two minutes. >> first of all, joe biden and i are both people of faith. and it's insulting to suggest that we would knock anyone for their faith. and in fact, joe, if elected, will be only the second practicing catholic as president of the united states. on the issue of this nomination, joe and i are very clear, as are the majority of the american people. we're 27 days before the decision about who will be the next president of the united states. and before, when this conversation has come up, it's been about an election year or election time, we're literally in an election. over 4 million people have voted. people are in the process of voting right now. so joe has been very clear, as the american people are, let the american people fill that seat in the white house, and then

we'll fill that seat on the united states supreme court. to your point, susan, the issues before us couldn't be more serious. there's the issue of choice, and i will always fight for a woman's right to make a decision about her own body. it should be her decision and not that of donald trump and the vice president, michael pence. and let's look at what is also before the court. the affordable care act. literally in the midst of a public health pandemic. when over 210,000 people have died, and 7 million people probably have what will be in the future considered a pre-existing condition because you contracted the virus. donald trump is in court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act. i said it before, and it bears repeating. this means that there will be no more protections, if they win, for people with pre-existing conditions. this means that over 20 million people will lose your coverage.

if you're under the age of 26, you can't stay on your parents' coverage anymore. and here's the thing. the contrast couldn't be more clear. they're trying to get rid of the affordable care act, joe biden is saying let's expand coverage, let's give you a choice, bring down premiums, lower the age for medicare to 60. that's true leadership. >> you said the president was committed to maintaining protections for people with pre-existing conditions. you do have this court case that your administration is supporting that would strike down the affordable care act. president trump says he's going to protect people with pre-existing conditions, but not n how he's going to do that.

how would your administration protect people with pre-existing conditions if the affordable care act is struck down? >> thank you, susan. but addressing your very first question, i couldn't be more proud to serve as vice president to a president who stands without apology for the sanctity of human life. i'm pro-life, i don't apologize n for it. this is another one of the cases where there is such a dramatic contrast. joe biden and kamala harris support taxpayer funding of abortion all the way up to the moment of birth. they want to increase funding for planned parenthood. i don't know how amy coney barrett will rule, but we continue to stand for life. and are you and joe biden going to pack the court, if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed?

there have been 29 vacancies during election years, presidents have nominated in all 29 cases. but your party is openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court which has had nine seats for 150 years if you don't get your way. if you can't win by the rules, you're going to change the rules. the american people would really like to know, if judge barrett is confirmed to the supreme court, are you and joe biden going to pack the supreme court to get your way? >> i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. let's do that a little bit more. >> i'd like you to answer the question. >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. in 1864, one of the, i think, political heroes certainly of the president, and i assume also

of you, abraham lincoln. he was up for re-election, it was 27 days before the election. and a seat became open on the united states supreme court. abraham lincoln's party was in charge not only of the white house but the senate. but honest abe said, it's not the right thing to do. the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states. and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land. and so joe and i are very clear. the american people are voting right now. and it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime. >> thank you, senator harris. >> people are voting right now, they'd like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the

supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination. >> let's talk about packing. >> you gave a non-answer, joe biden gave a non-answer. the straight answer is, they are going to pack the supreme court if they somehow win this election. people across the country, if you cherish the supreme court and the separation of powers, you need to reject the biden/harris ticket come november 3rd, and we'll keep the nine-seat supreme court. >> let's talk about packing the court. >> please. >> i'm about to. so the trump/pence administration has been, because i sit on the senate judiciary committee, and i've witnessed the appointments for lifetime positions, people who are purely

purel purepurel purely -- of the 50 people who president trump appointed to the court of appeals for lifetime appointments, not one is black? this is what they've been doing. you want to talk about packing a court, let's have that discussion. >> thank you, senator. let's talk about the issue of racial justice. >> i just want the record to reflect, she never answered the question. maybe in the next debate, joe biden will answer the question. but i think the american people know the answer. >> thank you, mr. vice president. in march, breonna taylor was shot and killed after police officers broke into her apartment. the police said they identified themselves, but her boyfriend said he didn't hear them do

that. he wounded an officer, and the officers fired more than 20 rounds into the apartment. they said they were acting in self-defense. senator harris, in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes. >> i don't believe so. and i've talked with breonna's mother and her family, and her family deserves justice. she was a beautiful young woman. she had as her life goal to become a nurse, and wanted to become an emt to first learn what is going on, out on the street, so she could become a nurse and save lives. her life was taken unjustifiably, tragically, and violently. it brings me to the eight minutes and 46 seconds that america witnessed during which an american man was tortured and

killed under the knee of an armed, uniformed police officer. and people around our country, of every race, of every age, of every gender, perfect strangers to each other, marched shoulder to shoulder, arm in arm, fighting for us to finally achieve that ideal of equal justice under the law. and i was a part of those peaceful protests. and i believe strongly that first of all, we're never going to condone violence. but we always must fight for the values that we hold dear, including the fight for our ideals. i'm a former career prosecutor. bad cops are bad for good cops. we need reform of policing in

america and our criminal justice system. that's why joe and i will immediately ban choke holds and carotid holds. we will have a national registry for police officers who break the law. we will get rid of private prisons and cash bail. and we'll decriminalize marijuana, and expunge the records of those who have been convicted of marijuana. >> thank you, senator harris. let me pose the same question to you. in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes. >> our heart breaks for the loss of any innocent american life. and the family of breonna taylor has our siympathiesympathies.

but i trust our justice system. a grand injury refused the evidence. and it's remarkable that you would assume that an empanelled grand jury would get it wrong. with regard to george floyd, there's no excuse for what happened to george floyd. and justice will be served. but there's no excuse for the rioting and looting that followed. it really is astonishing. a few weeks ago, i stood at what used to be a salon, that was burned to the ground by rioters and looters, and flora is still trying to put her life back together. and this presumption that you

hear from joe biden and kamala harris that america is systemically racist, and as joe biden said, he believes that law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities, it's a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement. and i want everyone to know who puts on the uniform of law enforcement every day, president trump and i stand with you. it's remarkable that when senator tim scott tried to pass a police reform bill, senator harris, you got up and walked out of the room. and you filibustered senator scott's bill that would have provided new accountability, new resources. we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement, improving public safety, and supporting our african-american neighbors and minorities. under president trump's leadership, we'll always stand

with law enforcement. >> mr. vice president, your time is up. >> i'd like to respond. >> senator harris? >> i will not sit here and be lectured by the vice president on what it means to enforce the laws of our country. i'm the only one on this stage who has personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault to homicide. i'm the only one on this side who prosecuted for-profit colleges for taking advantage of our veterans. and the reality of this is, we're talking about an election in 27 days where last week the president of the united states took a debate stage in front of 70 million americans and refused to condemn white supremacists. >> not true. not true. >> and it wasn't like he didn't

have a chance. he didn't do it, and then he doubled down. and then he said, when pressed, stand back. stand by. and this is a part of a pattern of donald trump's. he called mexicans rapists in criminals. he instituted as his first act a muslim ban. in charlottesville, while people were peacefully protesting the need for racial justice where a young woman was killed. and on the other side, neonazis carrying tiki torches, shouting racial epithets and anti semitic slurs. and donald trump said there were fine people on both sides. this is who we have in the president of the united states. and americans deserve better.

joe biden will bring our country together, and he recognizes the beauty in our diversity. and we have so much more in common than with separates us. >> vice president pence, you have a minute to respond. >> this is why people dislike the media so much in this country. you selectively edit just like senator harris did comments that president trump and i and others on our side of the aisle make. i mean, senator harris conveniently omitted, after the president made comments about people on either side of the debate over monuments, he condemned the kkk, neonazis, and white supremacists. and he has done so repeatedly. president trump has jewish grandchildren. his daughter and son-in-law are jewish. this is a president who respects and cherishes all of the

american people. but you talk about having personally prosecuted. i'm glad you brought up your record, senator. >> thank you. >> i need to make this point. when you were d.a. in san francisco, when you left office, african-americans were 19 times more likely to be prosecuted for minor drug offenses than whites and hispanics. when you were attorney general of california, you increased the disproportionate. >> thank you. >> you didn't lift a finger to pass the first step act on capitol hill. your record speaks for itself. president trump and i have fought for criminal justice reform. >> thank you, vice president pence. thank you, sir. >> and we'll do it for four more years. >> there's no more important issue than the final issue we'll talk about tonight. that's the issue of the election. >> but he attacked my record. i would like an opportunity to respond. >> let me give you 30 seconds.

because we're running out of time. >> i appreciate that. first of all, having served as the attorney general of the state of california, the work i did is a model of what our nation needs to do, and will be able to do under a joe biden presidency. our agenda includes what this administration has failed to d. not only a ban on choke holds -- >> thank you, senator harris. these are points you made earlier in the hour. i want to talk about the election itself before we go. >> but i want to talk about the connection between what joe and i will do and my record. which includes, i was the first statewide officer to require that my agents would wear body cameras and wear them all the time. because yes, joe biden and i recognize that implicit bias

does exist, mr. vice president. contrary to what you may believe. we did the work of instituting reforms that were about investing in re-entry. this is the work that we've done, and the work we will do going forward. and i will not be lectured by the vice president on our record of what we've done in terms of law enforcement and keeping our communities safe and a commitment to reforming the criminal justice system of america. >> thank you. and i'd like you to respond to the question on our final topic, the election itself. president trump has refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if your ticket wins, what steps would you and vice president biden take, what would happen next if president trump refused to step down? >> i'll tell you. joe and i are particularly proud

of the coalition that we've built around our campaign. we have probably one of the broadest coalitions of folks ever in a presidential race. we have the support of democrats but also independents and republicans. in fact, seven members of president george w. bush's cabinet are supporting our ticket. we have the support of colin powell, cindy mccain, john k kasich, over 500 retired generals and former national security experts and advisers are supporting our compaampaign. i think they're doing that because they know joe biden will fight for our democracy and the integrity of our democracy, and will bring integrity back to the white house. we believe in the american people, and in our democracy.

and i'd like to say to every, vote, vote early, come up with a plan to vote. go to iwillvote.com, you can also go to joebiden.com. we have in our power in the next 27 days to make the decision about what will be the course of our country for the next four years. and it is within our power and if we use our vote and our voice, we will win. and we will not let anyone subvert our democracy with what donald trump has been doing, as he did on the debate stage last week, when in front of 70 million people, he openly attempted to suppress the vote. joe biden on the other hand, on that same debate stage, said, hey, just please vote. i'll repeat what joe said. just please vote. >> thank you. president trump has several times refused to commit himself

to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if vice president biden is declared the winner, and president trump refused a peaceful transfer of power, what would be your role? what would you personally do. you have two minutes. >> first and foremost, i think we'll win this election. because while joe biden and kamala harris rattle off a long litany of the establishment in washington, d.c., that joe biden has been a part of for 47 years, president donald trump has launched a movement of everyday americans from every walk of life. and i have every confidence that the same americans that delivered the historic victory in 2017 see this president's record, we have rebuilt the military, revived the economy, with tax cuts, fair trade, and american energy, we've appointed

conservatives to courts at every level, and we've stood with the men and women of law enforcement every single day. and that movement has only grown stronger. but when you talk about accepting the outcome of the election, i must tell you, senator, your party has spent the last 3 1/2 years trying to overturn the results of the last election. it's amazing. when joe biden was vice president of the united states, the fbi actually spied on president trump and my campaign. there were documents released this week, the cia made a referral to the fbi documenting that those allegations were coming from the hillary clinton campaign. and we've all seen the avalanche, what you put the country through for the better part of three years until it was found there was no obstruction, no collusion, case closed. and senator harris, you and your colleagues in the congress tried to impeach the president of the

united states over a phone call. and now hillary clinton has said to joe biden, in her words, under no circumstances should he concede the election. i think we're going to win this election, president trump and i are fighting every day to prevent joe biden and kamala harris from changing the rules and creating a massive opportunity for voter fraud. if we have a free and fair election, we'll have confidence in it. and i know and believe that president donald trump will be re-elected for four more years. >> for the final question of the debate, i'd like to read a question that someone else wrote. the utah debate commission asked students in the states to write essays about what they would like to ask you. and i want to close tonight's debate with the question posed by an eighth-grader at springville junior high in springville, utah.

here's what she wrote. when i watch the news, all i see is arguing between democrats and republicans. when i watch the news, all i see is citizen fighting against citizen. when i watch the news, all i see are two candidates from opposing parties try to tear each other down. if our leaders can't get along, how are the citizens supposed to get along? your examples could bring us all together. i'd like you to take a minute and respond. vice president pence? >> that's a wonderful question. and let me just commend you for taking an interest in public life. i started following the news when i was very young. and in america, we believe in a free and open exchange of debate. and we celebrate that. it's how we've created literally

the freest and most prosperous nation in the history of the world. and i would tell you that, don't assume that what you're seeing on your local news networks is synonymous with the american people. i look at the relationship between justice ruth bader ginsburg, who we just lost from the supreme court, and the late justice antonin scalia. they were on polar opposites, but they were the very closest of friends. here in america, we can disagree, we can debate vigorously, as senator harris and i have here on this stage tonight. but when the debate is over, we come together as americans. that's what people do in big cities and small towns all across the country. i just want to encourage you, i want to tell you that we're

going to work every day to have government as good as our people. the american people, each and every day, love a good debate and a good argument. but we always come together, and we're always there for one another in times of need. and we've especially learned that through the difficulties of this year. >> senator harris, what would you say? >> first of all, i love hearing from our young leaders. when i hear your words, i know our future is bright. it's that perspective on who we are and who we should be is something we should all aspire to me. that brings me to joe. joe biden, one of the reasons that joe decided to run for president, after charlottesvi e charlottesville, it so troubled him that there was that kind of hate and division.

what propelled joe to run for president was to see that over the course of the last four years, what you've described has been happening. joe has a longstanding reputation of working across the aisle, in a bipartisan way. that's what he will do as president. joe biden has a history of liftilif lifting people up and fighting for their dignity. joe has known pain, he's known suffering, and he's known love. so when you think about the future, i do believe the future is bright. and it will be because of your leadership, and it will be because we fight for each person's voice through their vote. and we get engaged in this election. you have the ability through your work, and eventually your vote, to determine the future of

our country and what its leadership looks like. >> thank you, senator harris and vice president pence for being with us tonight. we want to thank also the university of utah for its hospitality, and most all of to all the americans who watched this debate tonight. our best wishes for a quick recovery to president trump, the first lady, and everyone who is battling covid-19. the second presidential debate is next week on october 15th. a town hall style debate in miami. we hope you'll join us then. good evening. [ cheers and applause ] >> there you have it. two candidates largely refraining from the fireworks from last week's presidential debate. tonight, much more civil. both candidates doing their best to dodge important, serious, tough questions from susan page that they didn't want to answer. she asked very good questions,

and mike pence in the process also learned it's nearly impossible to put a positive spin on the administration's record when it comes to coronavirus with more than 210,000 americans dead. she scored some points when she said these words. the greatest failure of a presidential administration in the history of our country. the candidates, their spouses, they're on the stage there. we'll continue to watch. in the meantime, let's check in with jake. >> thanks, wolf. i have to say, it was first of all a normal debate, a regular debate. not an emotionally abusive session with somebody who is a little unhinged. both candidates got in some punches. i thought senator harris was efe effe effective going after the administration's record with covid. i thought vice president pence going after biden's record, and attacking harris on the fringes of her party, as we expected.

there will be a lot that republicans will be happy to talk about when it comes to his performance. it was more standard. there is a disparity in terms of the unanswered questions. both of them did a lot of dodging. harris wouldn't answer about the court packing. and biden and harris should answer it. but pence wouldn't answer the question about why the u.s. death rate from covid is so much worse than any other wealthy country, and wouldn't commit to a peaceful transfer of power. while they both dodged questions, i can't help but think, these ones that pence dodged are somewhat more significant. >> and i can add another one to that, that is very significant. he wouldn't answer how a second term of the trump administration would preserve pre-existing condition promises, under obama care, which they're trying to do away with in the the court. i agree with you, our hearts are racing a little bit less than last week.

this was much more civilized. but it was really stunning to see the way mike pence pivoted, almost at every question. not answering the question. and not going back to actually follow up on the question. kamala harris was more respectful of the questions and tried to answer the questions. i'm not sure if that got her anywhere. i think at the end of the day, mike pence did what he needed to do, maybe, and then some. the same with senator harris. >> i think as we've all covered mike pence, we know this is his superpower as an interviewee, he often disregards the question, and answers the way he thinks is best. but in the context of the debate, it created this imbalance between the two of them. and i think that harris missed some opportunities to push back, at opportunities when pence took them. even when it wasn't his turn, and he was given time to go over

by 30 seconds here, 45 seconds there. and these are technicalities, but in the moment, what it means that you felt like you got more talking time from pence. >> and as interviewers, it was definitely frustrating to hear the question and then not hear a follow-up, when both of them, but much more mike pence, didn't answer the question at all. went in a completely different question. >> and we can't ignore the concept of gender. we're so used to seeing white men, but definitely men, on the stage when it comes to being on a ticket. senator harris is the fourth one, with ferraro, also hillary clinton, and i wonder if a woman candidate feels like she can't push as much or steamroll as much as mike pence can for fear

of seeming and offending some ser segment of the electorate. not saying it should be that way, but it seems that way. >> i was texting with a friend who is an african-american man, saying do you think she's letting some things go in a way that maybe she shouldn't? and the answer was, are you kidding me? she's a black woman, she has to pull her punches on that. and i'm not sure if that's true. she was tough, and certainly had her moments. but there were times when maybe there could have been more follow-up. and i don't know if that's something that was going through her head or not. i hope it wasn't. >> this is something every mom in politics and particularly black women, there is this line you have to thread. i was texting with people close to her who felt like pence was taking advantage of the rules, of the fact that he was able to just flout them.

and she should have perhaps pushed back in different ways. there are ways to do it in ways that don't present in a certain way. but this is a line that only women have to thread. >> and she didn't get a lot of help from the moderator. >> she did not. >> susan page was very by the book. she followed the rules, followed the time. >> there was a moment where pence said, i've got to finish this point, and was allowed to finish well beyond his time. people saw that back home, and there was clearly an imbalance there. >> she was very effective at the beginning of the debate when she was just addressing the facts of the coronavirus response, and the inadequacy of the administration's response. these are just the facts. she went after the pence administration's the fact

that the white house is currently a white zone. >> it was right there for kamala harris to take advantage of, and she didn't. but she pivoted back to everyday americans and their personal experiences with the virus. >> right. >> but when mike pence ignored the question about why americans should follow the cdc rules when the trump administration flouted them in the rose garden, it felt like there was not any adequate response to illustrate what was going on there. >> yeah. >> and so talking directly to the american people, you know what you've been going through. but at the same time, we're living through a white house coronavirus hot spot. and it didn't get brought up. >> she was preparing, and we all spoke to sources around her, to do exactly what she did.

make a connection, every single person in this country has a connection in some shape or form to coronavirus. but you gave one example, another example was when susan page asked the vice president ab about whether or not it's our right as american citizens to know about the health of the president, he completely ignored the question, and nobody head him accountable or held his feet to the fire. those are important questions that we don't get a chance to ask the vice president, much less the person who wants his job. >> yeah. i mean, there were times during the debate that i thought the most effective being on that stage to go after vice president pence was that fly that landed on his head. >> arguably one of the most interesting things. >> and sat there for ten minutes. anderson? >> yes, the fly got a lot of attention online.

david, your thoughts? >> i think they both got points they wanted to get in, they both evaded, but pence was a serial evader. and she, i think, clocked him on the coronavirus. but bottom line, i don't think this changes anything. this ticket, biden and harris, were ten points ahead going in. i would be surprised to see much movement in the polls here. and in that sense, it's a good night for biden. she held her own, the race is going in his direction right now. >> i think pence made a lot of the points that the administration would want him to make. and he made them very well, because the president of the united states really did not make them well or made no points at all last week. i think kamala harris took him on, on covid, and did that really well. she did not answer the question

on court packing, which we know that joe biden doesn't want to answer because as he says, it's a distraction from the question about the supreme court. and another thing that was interesting to me, we know how pence feels about rroe versus wade. but he didn't answer the question directly on roe. did not. the question was asked, what would you do in the state of indiana, would you say, okay, you shouldn't have abortions in the state of indiana. went right by it. because he knows where american public opinion is, overwhelmingly saying don't get rid of roe v. wade. and one moment that was stunning to me was when he kept using the pat moynahan phrase, you're

entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. are you kidding me, the trump administration? >> van? >> nobody is saying she could not be president of the united states. she cleared that bar. it is off the table. and that's important. because this is a moment in history in which that is an issue. she started strong, beat the crap out of him on covid, it was embarrassing, and ended strong on justice. in the middle, she had to walk that tightrope of being strong but not too strong, that all women of color have to walk. she got run over many times by pence, but kept her composure. >> i think that's not what went

on. it's a much simpler calculation. play it safe. you got a big lead. you don't want to do anything that could create a moment. and pushing back and being overly -- she was not overly assertive throughout the entire debate. >> pence was. >> he was a mansplainer in chief. >> this was probably the advice they gave her. don't create a moment where you're going to incite great friction. you want to be calm and presidential. she let it pass. it doesn't have anything to do with the color of her skin. you're ten points up -- >> i'm saying, it's painful to watch. >> if i'm doing the review of it, and i'm