's this pandemic or the next health crisis, vote yes on prop fifteen. for all of us. all right. now we're talking. i'm chris cuomo along with don lemon. this is cnn's -- >> wait. you said my name rong. >> what did i say? you always say my name d. lemon. >> i say it right the first time because there's a formality to it. now they're aware what your official name is, donald, we can get to what we're really talking about and get familiar because that's what this is about. it's going to be about an intimacy of 27 days. it's about feel now. how do you feel about which set of candidates will best represent the selection of what kind of country you want to see

over the next four years. >> yep. >> this is our special live coverage of the vice presidential debate. 26 days to go, of course. we started when it was 27 days. now it's after midnight. 26 days until election day. >> yeah. >> pence and harris facing off. very different debate. it actually was a debate. the president is in the white house. he was doing his tweeting. nothing really there of any -- >> the president was tweeting? >> -- of any impact. he was saying what you would think he should say, as was pence's role tonight. pence very much on message. in a tough spot. >> yeah. >> because as the head of the task force and kamala harris coming after him about it being the biggest failure in presidential history, he had his hands full. how do you think they handled it? >> so this is going to surprise a lot of people. i liked it. i actually really liked it. there was substance. we got substance in the debate. they talked policy. i actually thought senator kamala harris talked more policy than the vice president.

the vice president was doing a lot of attacking and what have you. but i thought it was a substantive debate. that's what the american people wanted. that's what they got this time. they didn't get the bombastic, crazy, ahh, you know who i'm talking about, right? >> who? me? >> no. i'm talking about the president. just so bombastic last time, came in hot. i thought it was very good, and it gives us something to analyze now that is normal, right? did they make their points? did they push back enough? i thought the vice president talked a little bit too much. he steamrolled the moderator, and i thought senator kamala harris missed a lot of opportunities to push back on the vice president just lying on certain things. and especially the part where he said that she was attacking the

american people or not respecting what the american people had done during the covid and during quarantine. that wasn't what she said. she said that the administration had failed the american people, and he -- you know, did the jedi mind trick on her and i would have called him out right away. >> yeah, that's called debating. >> she didn't call him out. people are saying she had to walk this tightrope because she's a woman. >> did you think that's what was going on, black woman syndrome, that she had to be more reserved? by the way, we haven't seen that from kamala harris in past debates. she almost took joe biden out at the knees. i had the t-shirt ready to prove it. >> two things. i'm aware that does happen. and i am aware as you know from being friends with me and your other friends of color, is that the standards are different, and they're different standards, let's put it that way. >> toughest thing to be in american society. >> yes. >> woman of color.

>> but being a man of color, and as you call me the unicorn in prime time, i've gotten so used to saying how i feel that, you know, i guess i'm in a position of privilege where i just don't care. i would have cut him right off, and i don't care what people think of me because people are already going to think you're uppity and you're this and you're that. i don't care anymore. >> hence the bracelets. >> yes, but this is because i need protection from you and all this craziness going on. but i'm not running for president, and neither is she, and that's the point. she was there to do no harm. she was there to handle herself in a professional manner and to promote biden/harris ticket, not the harris/boiden ticket. do no harm. i think she accomplished that. i would have pushed back a lot more, and she missed an opportunity to say the biggest hot spot in the country right now, one of, is what?

the white house? >> yeah, it's a cluster. >> and i would have pointed out that here we are, you know, what, eight months into this, nine months into this? by the time election day comes it will be almost a year into the pandemic. and you are the head of the coronavirus task force, and here we are divided by two pieces of plexiglas. that is physical evidence that what you have done, how you have handled this is a failure. >> so the early polling, to the extent that you need any guide for how you feel about what happened tonight as harris as the winner. but you have to put it in quotes. why? because people don't vote for vice president. >> right. >> and when you look at the numbers, the cross-references that i'm sure we'll put up at some point tonight, people didn't really change their vote based on tonight. that's not that different. last week you had people saying

that biden had won. the general feeling at the end of the night, you didn't learn anything now about who these men are. >> it wasn't so much that biden won. it was that trump lost. >> and it was something that seemed of no value. >> right. >> which is kind of a little bit of a commentary on what's going on with our political culture in general. look, pence had a much harder job tonight. >> yeah. >> he's defending a record. it is a problematic record, especially with the pandemic. he did something that the president does not do well. he sees their successes, and he is blind to their failures. >> right. >> so he just doesn't mention them. the president makes the mistake of trying to explain and change the failures and gets caught out looking absurd very often. pence didn't do that. >> yeah. >> he shows message discipline. he's very good at that. so harris had more opportunity, more to work with, therefore more of a burden to show that she exposed what she could.

so she had a harder job tonight. >> that's why i thought she should have defended herself a little bit more, especially when -- and, listen, we sit here every single night. >> mm-hmm. >> and listen to daniel dale's fact checks and do our own fact checks. and if he said, the president shut down travel from china. we would go, no, no, it wasn't a travel ban. there were restrictions, and there were a lot of people who got through those restrictions, and the evidence shows the virus did not come from china, the one that came to this country. it came from europe. so it was basically ineffective. i don't know why she didn't do that. i certainly would have done it. i would have defended my record and hit him where it hurts. >> you got to pick your spots. the format also, remember, not you, but you could easily make an assumption based on format she should have cut him off more. they were following the rules tonight. >> she was following the rules more than him. >> he was talking more. but, look, again, it's what do you compare it to? compared to last week, they were

very orderly in their discussion tonight. >> yeah. they talked about the same number of minutes, but she had a different tactic -- he had a different tactic. >> he was more of a bully in terms of time. >> she's like, mr. vice president, i'm still talking. >> right. >> and when she did that, i said -- that's the part where i said, she's got to be careful, not because she shouldn't have done that, but because of the different standards for women. >> i used to feel that way until i had -- ready for this? until i had daughters and watched my daughters in school. here's why i changed. you go into a classroom, and i know many of you are already nodding your heads if you're parents or women or both. and you see the boys raising their hand first. >> right. >> with nothing to say 80% of the time. >> nothing. and the girls know all the answers. >> and the girls know the answers, and they're quiet because that's the dynamic that is allowed. so i changed. i used to feel like that. this is thestereotype, but i was actually falling into it

myself. now i respect the assertiveness, no matter who it is, male or female. and kamala harris is one of the best one-two throwers i've seen in political debating in a long time. she can really throw punches in bunches. she didn't do that tonight as much. but, again -- >> do no harm. >> i believe a little bit of it is do no harm. i think she was trying to score some points. but she had so much to work with that there was such high expectation for what she would say. to don's point, we are suffering fl through a crisis that bad leadership has made a tragedy. those aren't my words. that's the "new england journal of medicine." they never put out political editorials signed by the entire staff about who's in power. they don't do that. it's a medical journal. they said this president has to be voted out because of a failure of leadership during a pandemic. he turned a crisis into a tragedy. pence is there, had no big defense. in fact, i think we have some sound.

do you have sound that you want to play in the control room about how they did on the coronavirus? >> we have sound where they pressed him about the spread, i think, at the white house. >> same thing i said. don said it in more words. here it is. >> vice president pence, you were in the front row in a rose garden event 11 days ago at what seems to have been a super-spreader event for senior administration and congressional officials. no social distancing, few masks, and now a cluster of coronavirus cases among those who were there. how can you expect americans to follow the administration's safety guidelines to protect themselves from covid when you at the white house have not been doing so? >> that rose garden event -- there's been a great deal of speculation about it. my wife karen and i were there and honored to be there. many of the people who were at that event, susan, actually were tested for coronavirus, and it was an outdoor event, which all of our scientists regularly and routinely advise. the difference here is president trump and i trust the american

people to make choices in the best interest of their health. joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates, and not just mandates with the coronavirus but a government takeover of health care. >> thank you. >> the green new deal. >> she did him a favor cutting him off, and i'll tell you why. this is the only moment of the debate where i felt like the vice president earned the same judgment that people make about the president, which is shame on you. >> mm-hmm. >> shame on you for being full of it about the answer you gave. it's not just that things outdoor are okay. you know that. you know there wasn't social distancing. you know you don't encourage masks and you know you do it as an act of defiance like you know better. and every clinician has told you that it's the wrong thing to do except dr. scott atlas. and i will just tell people that the shift to atlas as this guy

who has no particular pedigree when it comes to epidemiology, disease science, but they all believe in him because he says whatever they want. and now you have the white house has a case cluster, and the vice president is going to say, there's much speculation about that event? oh, is there? no. there's a lot of sick people. you've got chris christie sitting in a hospital. you've got kellyanne sitting at home. why don't you give them the medicine you gave to the president? i think for him to have his stoic face there was contempt for the reality. >> you know he lied right there, right? and we have the proof because it wasn't just outdoors. >> oh, yeah. they did -- >> they did an indoor reception, and for him to say, oh, it was outdoors, it was socially distanced, look at that. >> but it was a baby lie because of his voice. his voice said i don't need a mask tonight because we've all been tested at this debate. that's what the president said to you last week. >> and what did chris wallace say? >> he didn't take the test because he showed up late. and now there is reporting that the president over the past

couple months, he's not been getting tested every day as he said. >> here's the thing. they say that's not true. i have people from the white house doing something that they always say is trying to be helpful to me but i never buy it, which is be careful. be careful with him not having been tested. show me the negative test results from last week. >> make us wrong. >> just show them. it will be the top of my show. >> when was the last time he tested negative, and let's see the actual test where he was positive too. >> they actually have access to es itting. for them to have a cluster in the white house can only be recklessness. you have the best doctors, the best tests, and you have access to miracle cures, which also i thought harris was going to bring up tonight. >> i can't believe she didn't bring up the white house being a hot spot, and i think is it the number one place in washington, d.c. right now or close to -- >> no, unless you do it by percentage of people who were there. but i'm just saying the idea

that command central in a fight against the pandemic is breaking out because of bad guidance, bad doctoring by dr. scott atlas. look, he's invited on all the time. they keep him on state news because they want him protected from any kind of scrutiny. but, look, the patient is dying. you have everybody getting sick in the white house. >> but then they also tried to bring up too h1n1, which it's like come on. if h -- there are all these hypotheticals. >> a good debate tactic because it confuses people with a false equivalency. >> there's no "there" there. >> that's on her. >> again, that is on her. >> yeah. >> so let's bring in cnn's fact checker extraordinaire daniel dale. let me start off with the whopper of the night for you,

daniel. what did you think people need to know? >> i mean i think the whopper of the night was vice president pence's claim that they always tell the truth. i mean it's vague, but in was on the subject of the pandemic where i can -- you know, you can check my work, others' work. we have dozens -- i think it's hundreds of false claims from the president alone, let alone vice president pence, you know, writing an infamous op-ed saying, you know, we have no coronavirus second wave, playing it down like trump does. and trump himself acknowledged that he wasn't always truthful because he admitted to bob woodward on tape that he was playing it down. to me, it's not a specific policy claim or something, but that to me was egregious. >> he lied about being tested last week -- the president. i mean he's shameless about it. you know, now, look, people have to judge the vice president. i don't know. i mean if you can tell somebody's being histrionic and obviously saying things that are wild, how does that play to you compared to a vice president who has such a stone face and seems to ooze such integrity who is,

you know, jazzing you the same way? now, another one for you to look at is the assertion about what they did on china, and they had a back and forth. let me play it for the people at home. >> there were more than five cases in the united states, all people who had returned from china. president donald trump did what no other american president had ever done, and that was he suspended all travel from china, the second largest economy in the world. >> now, i personally prefer my mendacity with madness. i like for people to go all in, to be absurd and overreach. i find the vice president's kind of, you know, prevarication, which is a more sophisticated type of parsing for deception more unnerving because it seems like he actually believes what he's saying sometimes. what's the reality? >> well, don did this fact check for me minutes ago, i think

possibly because i've done it ten times on don's own show. it was not a complete suspension of travel from china. it was a restriction with citiz members. all of those people could still come over from china. tens of thousands of them did after these restrictions were p you in place in february. as don says research suggests the virus was coming in from travelers from europe at the time. so as the president was shutting the front door, the other door was left open until march, and that's where new york city and the area got its early outbreak. >> if ever you need a day off, daniel, i got you. >> thank you. >> they say it is about -- who is they? the numbers of what we saw on entry into the country after the ban with the exemptions comes out certainly in the tens of thousands. the estimates go up to about 40,000 people from china came back in. the more important part, though, is the distraction, which you're referring to. we know in new york from the

contact tracing that it was from europe because it's not a different virus. the virus moved. people got sick, and they moved from asia into europe and then were coming here to the big international travel hubs. and obviously as we did last week, you know, new york city is the biggest travel hub in the country. all right. number three, the candidates sparred on manufacturing jobs. the economy is going to matter to people even in the midst of a pandemic. here was a big moment. >> the vice president earlier referred to it as part of what he thinks is an accomplishment, the president's trade war with china. you lost that trade war. you lost it. what ended up happening is because of a so-called trade war with china, america lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. >> i'd love to respond. look, lost the trade war with china? joe biden never fought it. joe biden has been a cheerleader for communist china through -- over the last several decades.

and, again, senator harris, you're entitled to your opinion. you're not entitled to your own facts. when joe biden was vice president, we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs, and president obama said they were never coming back. he said we needed a magic wand to bring them back. in our first three years after we cut taxes -- >> thank you vice president. >> unleashed american energy, this administration saw 500,000 manufacturing jobs created, and that's exactly the kind of growth we're going to continue to see as we bring our nation through this pandemic. >> thank you. >> the growth we're going to continue to see, daniel, except for the pandemic. right now the unemployment rate is the highest it's been since the '40s. but it's an interesting -- it's an interesting strategy by the president and vice president. they are the first tandem in modern american history to deny any responsibility for a crisis on their watch. let me ask you this, a little bit of a curveball. your take on who refused to

answer more questions and more meaningfully avoided what they needed to answer. >> pence. >> i have to avoid your question because -- >> pence. >> i listen for fact checks, for dishonesty, so i don't feel confident in my own watching of the debate generally, and i don't like to be wrong on tv. so i'm going to dodge. >> i found two instances where she did not answer the question. >> okay. >> which was about packing the courts. and the other one was about had they had discussion about if the vice president -- the former vice president became incapacitated, how she would -- you know, who would take over the job and that sort of thing. >> well, one was a question from susan page. >> right. >> the other was a question from mike pence. >> yeah. i think she should have had a better answer for that. my answer would be, like, the moderator asks the questions. >> what's your answer to the court packing question? >> if we're going to do that? if we're going to pack the courts?

>> yeah. >> i don't know. listen, i'm not a democrat and i'm not -- >> i'm saying what do you think would have been a better answer? and please don't distract from the question. we all know you're not -- >> a better answer would have been, that's not really the point. >> that's the good answer? >> that's not the point right now. >> that's the good answer? >> that's not the point right now. >> put up the phone numbers of how i'm winning this debate. >> that's not really the point right now. then i would have gone to what she said, let's talk about packing the courts. >> bring daniel dale back up here. >> then why do you want to talk about these hypotheticals when right now the reality is we have 210,000 people who are dead in this country. we have an administration and a party who is trying to -- how would i have said it? who is trying to rush a justice in when the last time you said that you wouldn't do it. so you're lying to the american people. you lied to them in 2016. >> now you're lying to them again. and now you're trying to bring

in a hypothetical about something that may or may not happen. i refuse to answer that question because that's not what's important right now. what's important right now is the dead people and you trying to rush through a supreme court justice. >> all right. that's his answer. he got going. he got into a little bit of a flow there once his head kind of collected. here is what i expected, okay, was you want to ask about what my reaction is going to be, and you are ignoring your action that may have forced it. you have perverted the system. you did something that you said was wrong, and then you did it anyway, and it's because you perverted power just for your own personal advantage. you want to ignore that. having a straight face doesn't mean you're playing straight with the american people. and you did it, and now you're upset about how we may respond to your perversion of what is right and wrong. actions have consequences, and i know perversion is a tricky word for you, mr. vice president, because you find a lot of things perverse like being gay. now, answer the question about what you would want indiana to

do when it comes to roe v. wade and about how you feel whether gay people should have rights in this country. >> that's a good one. >> that's the kind of thing kamala harris can do. the fact that i slap you around like a naughty child is not the point. >> i said the same thing that you said, but i said it like a -- i said it like a blue collar guy. you said it like some ivy league guy, except for the gay thing. i don't want to bring up the gay thing because you know i live it. >> i live it too. go ahead. which is a better answer? fact check, please. >> i recuse myself. >> you're going to make it a long time in this business. let me tell you, i hope that fence doesn't get uncomfortable that you're sitting on. >> i love the fence. >> i take offense to your defense. >> all right, daniel. >> appreciate the fact check. >> thank you. >> terrible judge. >> we'll see you. thank you.

>> good man. >> let's talk about this. maybe they can help us out and see who had the winning argument. i have to say that was pretty good. our senior political reporter nia-malika henderson is here. how are you guys doing? >> great. >> what did you think, nia? quite different. different atmosphere. oh, wait a minute. you want to ask who won it -- >> it's a rhetorical question. we know what happened. everybody heard it. mike doesn't even like me, and you knows i just whooped you. >> who won the debate? >> no. who won the debate between us? >> i'm going to go with don. i like his answer because i think people don't necessarily care about court packing. i think white evangelicals care, and that's why you see pence talking about it. but i think, you know, shifting to covid, shifting to the 200,000 dead is a much better answer. >> boom! >> and it's where the american

people are. >> first of all, never trust people with three names. second of all, if you had to shift, you've got a problem with your answer. that's all i'm saying. >> i'll ask you, governor. this is very different. i didn't think this one was chaotic. i thought there was policy. they clashed on coronavirus. they talked taxes, the environment. what did you think? >> yeah. i have a process response and a substantive one. i felt -- i felt, because it is about how you feel, i felt so happy because i felt like kamala harris made women proud. she was strong. she was on it. she was in command. she had a sense of -- there was a little joie de vivre about her. pence just looked like he was -- i honestly truly thought that he might have been a little bit ill because he looked so -- he just

didn't look well. >> excuse me as a sniffle here. >> yes. he didn't look like a happy warri warrior. >> i didn't really think about it because, you know, i'm sitting there watching as a guy. i don't want to man-splain anything. but this did mean a lot to women, didn't it? >> oh, it meant a huge amount. and women of color, of course. but women overall. you know i've taught classes on this issue, about how women need to present themselves in debates and all that. i mean we'll -- you know all this. you can't come across as too aggressive. we still have all these stereotypes and all that. but what she did -- i mean she did have to go in doing no harm. we know that. but she was able to, i think, weave between the danger zones in such a great way. i was so happy for her and for

women overall, and for what it means hopefully for the next woman who follows her. that's number one. >> i think women politicians will study what she did tonight for decades because she came across as so appealing. she was very winsome even as she was very aggressive with mike pence, talking as he was trying to interrupt her, she said, mr. vice president, i'm talking. please stop talking. so i thought she did quite well tonight in introducing herself to a lot of americans who might not be familiar with her. and i thought, you know, mike pence has this sort of like phony ronald reagan affect to him. it's almost prayerful at times. and i think over the course of that 90 minutes, it didn't really wear very well for him. >> mike -- >> and there she was smiling the entire time. >> let's bring mike in. >> mike, you get to talk now. >> i feel like you should be feeling like you had a good night. >> well, look -- >> the vp had a lot of things to

be worried about. he never seemed flustered. he seemed to be very confident with every answer that he gave. >> there were a couple times where i thought he was flustered, especially in the beginning. he was a bit fidgety. but go, on mike. i think, mike, you should be happy tonight. >> i am. i think he did a great job. first i want to comment on what was just talked about which is i just love when democratic women talk about women writ large as if they speak for all of them. you know, there are a lot of conservative women who flat out disagreed with kamala harris, and they watched tonight, including my wife, who is a very successful republican woman. and there's going to be a conservative woman who has a supreme court nomination coming up. and it's going to be amazing how the agency of that woman is going to be removed because she's conservative. so what we're really celebrating about kamala is that she's a liberal woman. on to mike pence, i thought mike pence did exactly what he needed to do. when you look at policy positions between pence and trump and harris and biden, there are some that have been lost. as a republican, we've been a little frustrated, especially

with the first debate, that we haven't talked about our strengths. the conversation that pence had on taxes and on the economy, and getting kamala harris to say, we're going to repeal the trump tax cuts, including apparently the middle class tax cuts that got $2,000 per family, the doubling of the child tax credit, that is an add. he created an add out of the debate tonight. just for that alone he was incredibly successful, not to mention -- >> you mention that as if it's a negative that they want to repeal the trump tax cuts. >> it is when you look at polls, don. if you look at polling, that is an issue that over and over again the president does well on with swing voters. and voters that the president is losing, the way to get them back is when you tualk about his economic positions and his tax policies. >> i think you have to separate the economic policies from the tax policy. i don't think people are happy with this tax policy. we'll have to look at some polling. i don't know which polling you're looking at. >> what about the woman --

>> yeah. you talked about women. if you look at women overwhelmingly thought that harris did better. 69% of women said harris won. 30% said pence won. men, 48% is basically split. 46% for pence. so i'm not sure about the women. i think people are -- i think what people are reacting to, they're not saying that harris did great. that there was a woman for the firstwell, not for the first time. a woman sitting up there and a woman of color really for the first time being in that position. i think all women should be proud of that regardless if she's a democrat or a republican. >> no, sure. i agree with that, and i think they should be proud that -- >> sarah palin got to sit there. >> -- the next spupreme court justice is going to be a woman. >> what did the women think? let's start with nia. what's your response to what mike said, that you guys are only happy because it's a lefty woman. >> well, listen, i am not a

democrat. i am just an objective observer of politics and particularly women in politics. i was talking more about her presentation. she seemed very comfortable. she seemed very loose. if you compare her presentation to women we've seen in that position before, particularly hillary clinton, you always got the feeling with hillary clinton that she was sort of not really settled into who she was, not really comfortable being the full hillary clinton. she was criticized obviously for everything from her policy to her laugh to what she wore. and it feels like to me kamala harris obviously standing on the shoulders of people like hillary clinton, but she was just a woman in full tonight, and i thought that was incredible for women to see across the country, that kind of presentation that you can give. you can be warm. you can be funny. you can also be aggressive and push back. a lot of people were saying that, you know, maybe she didn't get enough time because pence was actually interrupting her so much. but if you look at the time she got, it was essentially equal to mike pence because she kept

pushing her way in there in a way that women like that, and she also broke even with men. >> all right. mike. let me ask you this. how do you think the vice president did as it relates to his handling of the pandemic, him being the head of the task force, the president, and the administration? how do you think he answered the questions on that? >> look, i thought he gave the best argument you can give, and i thought he did a great job of laying out a lot of things that are lost that this administration has done successfully that you don't hear very often in the coverage. it's a tough assignment because we're living through a terrible pandemic and the government in charge has to answer for it. but i thought that there are things that they have done in terms of getting the resources necessary to new york, to new jersey, to the states where the governors in the convention were complimenting him for that. that gets lost a lot. i thought he did a good job of laying that out unfiltered, where people could hear from the

administration. as republicans, we don't see that from our surrogates enough explaining what they've done. i thought he did a great job of that. >> that's because, mike, when somebody is hanging on by a hand and they say, help me, help me, and you grab them and pull them up a little bit and then let go and they fall back down, they say help me, help me again and you don't do anything, people don't remember the first time because they're still hanging on by a thread. governor granholm, in terms of prosecuting the case of the pandemic to the american people, about why we're here, why we're the worst when we're supposed to be first, how big a deal do you think that is in this election vis-a-vis for what mike refers to, which it's usually the economy? >> well, obviously the pandemic is the precursor to the economy coming back. the reason why we have the worst economy since herbert hoover is because this administration has been so utterly inept with respect to the pandemic. i thought that kamala harris in that first answer did a great

job of prosecuting the case. and then when mike pence was asked, why doesn't the u.s. at least have as good a record as canada, much less all these other countries, he did not answer because he doesn't have a good answer because it has been an abomination. i think you were right to talk about why wasn't the fact that the white house itself is a cluster? there was a release this evening or this afternoon of a fema document that now says that there's 34 people that are connected with the white house that have come down with the virus. it is a mess. and so i thought that kamala harris did a great job of going after it, but honestly i might have gone after it several times during the debate, as much as i possibly could because it is the issue in this election. >> it's a mess. it's also a metaphor. >> there will be more -- there will be more people coming out of this, and there's more show ahead. >> granholm mentioned herbert hoover.

mister we could use a man like herbert hoover again. ♪ didn't need no welfare state ♪ everybody pulled his weight >> that's how old we are "all in the family." jean stapleton, carroll o'connor, both gone. but we're still here. >> that means you're the bigot? >> i ain't no damn by-goat. remember he used to say that? we mocked him as a caricature. >> and now he could have been president. >> i don't think he would have wanted that. >> maybe he is president. >> he is from queens. that was queens too. >> archie bunker. >> yeah, the white house and the hot spot thing. i cannot believe that she didn't hit him harder on that, on the

fact that there were two physical barriers there. that would have been the first thing that came out of my mouth. there were two barriers, two plexiglas barriers. >> look, we'll talk about it. we got a lot of time tonight. but there are many people in america who are saying even if you think that people have been too panicky about this and the left has been too much about shutting it down, what was your alternative? what did you offer in terms of how to keep things open other than rash open-ended suggestions that got states in trouble? i think this is a hard issue for them. >> yeah. >> pence was good in terms of being stoic. but when you're responsible, stoicism may not be enough. >> yep. so tonight's debate happening in the shadow of the coronavirus with the president infected and holed up in the white house and mike pence, who heads up the coronavirus task force, trying to convince you that the administration did a great job. so tell that to the families of more than 211,000 americans who have died. we'll be right back. and now your co-pilot.

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vice president pence did his best to defend a bad record when it comes to the record on

coronavirus, dodging some questions about reckless decisions from the white house. senator kamala harris arguing the american people have witnessed the greatest failure of any presidential administration in our nation's history. joining me now, former baltimore city health commissioner dr. lena nguyen. good to see you, doc. >> good to see you too. >> your reaction to the "new england journal of medicine" not just putting out a political editorial, but all of them signing on to say, trump should be voted out because he turned crisis into tragedy with bad leadership, making america worst in cases and in deaths. >> it's really extraordinary, and it comes on the heels of other scientific publications that have never done this, endorse someone for president based on purely this is about

saving lives. we've seen in this country the abject failure of leadership when it comes to responding to a public health crisis. instead of letting public health lead, our political leaders have actually pushed scientists and doctors under the bus. our muddled messaging even continues with the president and vice president flouting guidelines for isolation and quarantine. even the fact that vice president pence was there in person today and the president himself tweeting out beforehand that there is a cure for coronavirus, i mean there are so many examples of how we have failed all along, but continue to fail when it comes to this crisis. >> would you have ever identified dr. scott atlas, period, let alone as a public health policy expert or a pandemic crisis expert? >> he is not someone known to the public health world. there are many exceptional experts in public health. dr. atlas is not known to be one of them, and i think it's even more so that his actions and his

words since he became in this position, that's been the most worrisome because he has the president's ear, and he's been touting things like cures that aren't -- obviously there is no cure for coronavirus. he has also talked about herd immunity and promoted this concept that actually could result in 2 million to 3 million americans dead as a result. >> now, the counter to that is no, no, no, it won't happen like that, doctor, because what we see in sweden and other places is you only have to worry about the old people and people who are immune compromised, so they quarantine. everybody else, especially the kids, they go about normal life because they don't have the same risks, and then you have the economy going. you have schools going. and the people who need to be protected are protected. >> chris, it's a great hypothesis. the problem is that it has been proven wrong over and over again. there was a cdc study looking at

the number of people -- the types of people who first became infected in may to july period, and they found that the individuals who were getting infected at the highest rate were people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. but within two weeks of younger populations getting infected, it immediately translated into people 60 and older getting infected as well. it just doesn't happen with an illness as contagious as this one that you can somehow cordon off all those who are the most vulnerable and somehow only have this affect those who are younger. and let's not forget too that children have died, that young adults who were previously healthy have suffered and are living with, as you know well, long-term consequences because of covid-19. this is a very serious disease. there's no silver bullet, and i think that's important for us to know too. i think president trump keeps on looking for this magic cure, this one pill that you can now take and this goes away. >> yeah, he says he found it. >> it doesn't work like that. >> he says he found it. he discovered remdesivir and

dpo discovered the antibody treatment that regeneron has been working on for months and has been funded by the government and -- >> he's also on a lot of steroids so -- >> the white house officials conceded today that the president has not been tested daily for the coronavirus. trump is tested regularly while people around him are tested daily. two people in contact with president trump say they've seen him having some trouble breathing since returning from walter reed. now, an adviser cautions it's not serious but noticeable. why shouldn't it be? he's struggling through coronavirus. i went very slow on this news because i would be surprised if he weren't having any type of difficulty in any way one week into coronavirus. >> and i watched that video that he tweeted out tonight, and i was concerned because he clearly

had increased work of breathing. it looks like he wasn't able to speak in full sentences. it looked as if he was struggling. again, as you said, chris, it's not unexpected because he most -- almost certainly has pneumonia. we don't have his doctor being on record saying it, but the fact that he had the drops in oxygen saturation, the fact that he was on dexamethasone, which is for people with severe or critical illness, i mean all that points to him having some level of pneumonia. so he should be recuperating. he certainly should not be touting that somehow he had a cure when actually we need to be doing the hard work of trying to prevent this illness, and he should be doing the hard work too of trying to recover, knowing that we still may be days away from him still having the most severe course of his illness. >> yeah. god forbid. hopefully he stays on this path. he he's certainly looking a heck of a lot better than i was at that same period. and if he found a miracle cure, i know he has enough right now to give it to the other people who got sick in that white house. it would be nice if they got the

same treatment at a minimum that he gets. dr. wen, as always, thank you for the sober advice and the reckoning of our current situation. lies, mistruths, dodges, they happen at debates, okay? including even about the pandemic that we're living right now. nothing is sacred. so where does it leave us? next. 20 years ago, i was an hourly associate cart pusher. the different positions i've had taught me

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they do one of the most deven in normal times.s, our frontline health care workers. and when these heroes lack the resources they need, that risky job gets ten times harder. prop fifteen makes corporations pay their fair share. to invest in our communities, in our clinics, in the essential workers who treat everyone- rich, poor, and in-between. whether it's this pandemic or the next health crisis, vote yes on prop fifteen. for all of us. senator kamala harris slamming the trump administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic in the only

vice presidential debate with mike pence. and a poll of debate watchers shows may have had an impact. 59% say harris won while 38% say pence won. that as president trump makes this bizarre and stunning claim in a white house-produced propaganda video released earlier tonight. >> i think this was a blessing from this was a blessing in disguise. i caught it. i heard about this drug. i said, let me take it. it was my suggestion. i said let me take it, and it was incredible, the way it worked. incredible. and i think, if i didn't catch it, we'd be looking at that, like a number of other drugs. >> i can't get over the makeup or the bronzer. he's as dark as me. what is going on there? >> the gap between his hands and his face was jarring. >> i -- i didn't hear a word he

said. so i want to bring in now cnn political analyst, john avlon, and republican strategist, alice george. so, hello, good morning, to both of you. so, alice, hey, let's talk some big picture, here, okay? and you know the coronavirus, front and center. 210 -- 211,000 americans dead from covid. mike pence is the head of the white house coronavirus task force. and tonight, the president is in the white house suffering from the disease. even though, he's fine. he says he's fine. pence played this off or said it was a success. how was this a success? >> i don't really see how it is. and i'm not going to sit up here and say that it has been, because there are a lot of things that could have and should have been done differently, and need to continue to be done differently moving forward. i do think that it was important for the vice president, as he did tonight, to -- to make the case for what they have done

right. which, directing funding, trillions of dollars in funding, for coronavirus, for masks, and -- and other essential, necessary equipment. ventilators that need to go to certain places. but also, working to open up the economy and stimulate the economy. but more important than money and masks is what they need to do with regard to messaging, moving forward. they -- they need to do this, not just by saying the words but, talking the talk and walking the walk. they need to remind people, as many people have been doing, wear masks. social distance. avoid enclosed places. wash your hands. and practice what the cdc and health regulators are encouraging other people to do. this administration and leaders need to be doing that as well, and that is just as important as the money they're putting out. >> it is but some people may say it's a little late for that because when people -- you know, when we, in the media, when the

professionals, the scientists, the doctors, had been stressing that, this administration had not. and so, is it too little too -- is it too late, john, for that messaging that alice speaks about? >> i mean, you can't have the kind of gap we've seen persistently with this white house, that has led to a major outbreak of people in the white house, in the trump orbit, that exceed some countries', you know, current, new covid cases. and then, all of a sudden, say do as we say, not as we do. every little bit helps. the hope is that the president and the administration would, because the fact that this has come home to them, take it more seriously. and not treat it as a problem that's been overblown by -- by democrats and the media. >> do you think people bought his answers, john? >> what's that? >> do you think people bought his answers? >> look, he's got -- he had an incredibly tough job as the head of the covid task force. it's difficult to spin your way out of 210,000 deaths. i mean, and just objectively, we

got 4% of the world's population, 20% of the world's covid deaths. there's no way to make that look good. and that's just -- that's just the hard reality of where we are. >> hold -- hold that thought. i got to get a break in and i want to talk to -- i want to see how this -- 2020 relates to 2016, if it does, at all. we'll be right back. did you know you can go to libertymutual.com to customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? really? i didn't-- aah! ok. i'm on vibrate. aaah! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ ♪ anywhere convenience. everyday security. bankers here to help. for wherever you want to go.

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of mental health and addiction is finally over. okay. so, we're back, now, with john avlon, alice stewart. so, john, let me ask you this. beyond the debate tonight, when you look at what's going on and how it impacts the race, how hard is it to see a presidential debate happening next week? does anyone feel safe about that? >> safe? no. i think we've just got to deal with the obvious. we still don't know when he was first tested so we still don't know when he definitively had

his first symptoms. he needs to be clean at least ten days before the next debate. he does not seem to be abiding by anything, typical medical guidelines, so that's really a question the biden campaign's going to have to deal with. but i think they'll ask the debate commission to make that call. this is a surreal circumstance but there's no way donald trump should be out there, for his own health and the safety of everybody else, right now. >> alice, you're agreeing? because they still haven't told us the last time he tested negative. so, shouldn't they tell us that? >> absolutely. i completely agree. look. i would like to know when the last time he was tested negative or when the next time he'll be tested and we find out. that's a critical component to even planning the next debate. but if we find out that he has been negative in the right amount of time, it can be done safely. it could actually be done outside. it'll be done in miami. it couldn't be more beautiful. and they can use proper distance. they can use barriers.

plastic barriers in between them to keep it safe. but as john said, this needs to be the presidential debate committee that makes these decisions. if i was the biden campaign, they can't come out too forceful in trying to push it back or delay because, you know, it doesn't reflect -- it reflects poorly on their campaign. but i think the debate commission will make sure that it's done safely and accurately. and any tests done are done outside of the campaign, so we make sure we have the right answers. but i think it is important, given the -- how crucial this election is. we do have two more debates and plenty of time for people to see the contrast between the candidates before they go vote but it needs to be done safely. if we have to push it back, let's do so. but we do need to hear from these two candidates at least twice before they go to the election. >> all right. thank you, both. i appreciate it. >> thanks, don. >> take care, guys. >> so, look. we are all sitting here in boxes. why can't they do it here that way? and we are able to talk.

>> because you don't get the same satisfaction of seeing the people in the presence of one another. look. i think the problem with the argument that was just made is that people didn't feel that the last debate changed their minds. you have an uncharacteristically low undecided vote right here. i haven't seen a poll that puts it above 10%, undecided. >> whose mind is not made up? i need -- i need to hear what both candidates are saying and blah, blah, blah. after four years, do you really need to know? >> well, yes, people need to know but i think they do know. i think that's your point. and, look, here's the problem. yoe i don't care about the debate as much as i care about the pandemic. and i just don't understand how this president can say that he cares about prophylaxis and cares about putting out the right message, if he wants to have a debate when he is sick. i mean, it's just crazy. if you put it into the context of your own life, hey, you know,

the kid's going to come to school and he or she is sick. but they'll put up the plexiglass and they'll have case outside -- they'll have class outside, it'll be okay. nobody's going to accept that. >> he's got a lot of motivators to -- >> well, he needs the debate. >> he needs the debate because he is -- in the polls, at least, he is losing. he needs to win, for a number of reasons. to help his business. the statute of limitations on some things. he has -- he -- he has, really, everything and nothing to lose, if you know what i mean. so, he's going to go for it. and that means facts, truths, infecting people, it doesn't really matter. let's open the show, though. and then, we'll continue. i'm don lemon. that's chris cuomo. this is our live, special coverage. cnn's vice presidential debate, late night, or early morning, in the wee hours. >> don after dark. >> yeah. that was a couple weeks ago, though, when i had my tan. this is don after dark because i'm lighter now.

>> you look good. you look good. so, look. this was a real debate, tonight. you actually got to see pence, harris, questions, answers, points of contrast, basic decency observed. certainly, compared to the week before. behind plexiglass because we're in the middle of a pandemic. that was harris's, you know, biggest straight punch, all night long, was early on in the debate her saying this is the biggest failure of presidential leadership we've ever seen. we're in the middle of a pandemic. you turn crisis into tragedy. comes out, the same day, that the new england journal of medicine says that the president has to be voted out because of this real malfeasance of leadership. >> and they talked race, as well. >> they did. little bit. little bit. >> and they say, you know, i think the vice president said he -- he -- he criticized kamala harris for saying that there

was -- or at least insinuating that there was systemic racism in our society. >> yes, and look, a gut shot for -- that's a terrible analogy -- a -- a strong point for the president and the vice president is you think cops -- he made -- he makes a point, in a very interesting way. implicit bias in policing. for them, that play is you don't like police. and the difference between police and policing is lost on a lot of people. and that was a state of play i wanted to see dug into. and they didn't. >> yeah, but for her, that's, you know, that's -- that's a hot spot because people -- people in the african-american community, some, see her as a cop. right? >> because he was ag in california. >> and putting a lot of -- >> and a prosecutor. >> -- a lot of people of color, especially men of color, in jail, right? >> yeah. >> so, it was a tough thing for -- it's interesting how mike pence would try to criticize her

on being tough on crime, and then saying she doesn't like police officers. >> that's debating. >> right. and i think he was able to land that blow, actually. >> yeah. look. he's a good debater. there is -- confidence is huge, in debating. and he says things that you can't believe that he's saying. >> because he sounds like this. >> but he's stowics aic and he it. it's a very effective mechanism, and he's thoughtful and control matters. what hurt trump so much last week, you're out of control, man. you're desperate. there's nothing desperate about mike pence. >> the thing that got me the most, though, is that he claimed to be standing up for the truth. and that is preposterous because he's not standing up for the truth. there was a lot of lying in what he said. >> well, he's fundamentally standing up for a liar, as a man of alleged integrity, that's a tough spot. >> and a man of faith. he is standing up for a liar. >> that -- this really wasn't touched. >> and he is repeating the liar's lies. and the nerve. i kept saying i can't believe

that senator harris is not pushing back. to say you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. and clearly, the facts were on her side and she didn't even say, like -- >> that's debating. >> yes! >> that's debating. i don't know that it's going to matter because you can have an up-and-down vote on amy barrett, the judge, if one comes up which seems likely. but if it does come up before the end of the election, the way they are weaponizing faith by saying that the left is attacking faith is really interesting, to me, because it's not about -- judge barrett is a catholic. okay? i was raised in catholicism, just as she. it's not that she's a catholic that they're attacking. it's that she holds her religion as a step-for-step guide in her behavior. now, i know she'll say i don't let my faith come in -- she belongs to an organization that

makes you sign a covenant that has a whole set of standards for your existence, that is way beyond being a catholic. but, it's interesting dynamic at play. and once again, i see the left always caught flatfooted by what's coming at them. like, they don't see what's coming until it hits them. and then, they try to react. and that's going to be an interesting sftate of play. pence had the harder job. he did the harder job well. harris had a ton of stuff to work with, and she's a very adept debater. but when you have so much to work with, it's easier for people to be unsatisfied because they were -- there's so much that they wanted to hear. >> yeah, but i think the -- for me, it was -- i thought it was easy. i mean, when you have 210,000 people dead, i think your job is easy. i think what you said about judge amy coney barrett, i think, is exactly right. when you talk about the group that she belongs to. not that you are attacking

someone's faith. but what the republicans would say, if -- if the tables were turned is that we're not doing that. we're just vetting her and that's part of the process. this is a lifetime appointment. and so, you have to vet her, in every single way. and that includes religion. that's not attacking someone. >> and the irony is who is mike pence? mike pence is a christian, who sees christian as -- christianity as a tool to me, presumptively, punitively, as a tool for exclusion because he thinks you can pray gay away. >> yeah. yes. and he, also, leans into the whole idea of being pro-life, but then not saying they want to rush this through because they want another pro-life judge. not owning that. >> what would you want indiana to do where he was governor if roe v. wade went away? because then, it becomes a state-by-state issue, right? i know funding means everything and if people don't have access and they can't pay, then they don't have the control over

their body the same way. they can't exercise their right. i understand the argument, very well. i'm saying that he wouldn't even answer. >> no, he won't because he knows where the -- the public opinion is on that. most of the public believe that women should have a choice. >> smart guy. >> but here's the thing. they make you think that it is -- that it's a binary choice, right? >> uh-huh. >> one can -- one can not be in favor of abortion, but still think that someone has the right to choose. >> that's the genius in saying pro-abortion or anti-abortion. you are pro or con reproductive rights for women. >> i know a lot of christians who say i don't think it would be my choice to do it. but i'm not -- that's not my body. i can't tell you what to do. as a man, i would think -- >> you don't know a lot of evangelical christians who say that. >> no, not a lot. but -- no, i don't. but still, that's the way it should be. >> are you pro-abortion?

do you like abortions? >> i don't think anyone is pro-abortion. >> you know, do you wish you can have an aborgdtion? >> that's not the point. >> but that's how it's framed. that's how it's framed and that's why it's such an effective tool, that you could argue, doesn't have a big place in our politics. >> i think that another interesting part of this debate was when she -- when she talked about them being obsessed with overturning the record of obama and biden. let's listen to that. >> the trump administration's perspective and approach to china has resulted in the loss of american lives, american jobs, and america's standing. there is a weird obsession that president trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by president obama and vice

president biden. for example, they created, within the white house, an office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics. they got -- they got rid of it. >> not true. >> there was a team of disease experts, that president obama and vice president biden dispatched to china to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen. they pulled them out. we, now, are looking at 210,000 americans who have lost their lives. let's look at the job situation. we mentioned, before, the trade deal. the trade war, they wanted to call it, with china. it resulted in the loss of over 300 manufacturing jobs in a manufacturing recession, and the american consumer paying thousands of dollars more for goods because of that failed war that they called it.

and let's talk about standing. pew, a reputable research firm has done an analysis that shows that leaders of all of our formally-allied countries have now decided that they hold, in greater esteem and respect xi jinping, the head of the chinese, communist party, than they do donald trump, the president of the united states, the commander in chief of the united states. this is where we are, today, because of a failure of leadership by this administration. >> that was good. i think -- i think that was good, on her part. she -- she made the point. there was some foreign policy there. and i kept thinking as she was doing this and sometimes when the vice president was speaking. more policy, in two minutes in this debate, than we got in the entire 90 minutes last time. >> a much better debate with two much better debaters.

you know, this is unusual. you know, trump is not a good debater. i know people say he is. no. he's a good arguer. that doesn't make you a good debater. biden is not a particularly strong debater. why? well, it's about facility with language and quick recall and understanding how to break something down that is incisive and how to cherry pick something that exposes a point you want to make. easy to say. not easy to do. harris, very good at it. pence, very good at it. when's the last time the two vice presidential candidates were clearly better at the stagecraft that people value most, for whatever reason, in a presidential election? what does that tell you about where we're at? >> was it tomato, what's his name? >> quail? >> dan quail. >> potato. >> and we thought that was bad. >> now, look where we are. >> yosemite, where the jews run free. >> thy-land. >> why are we laughing? >> the fly in the room. let's not talk about the fly.

we'll talk about that later. what was up with mike pence's eyes? it's like he had pink eye. >> i don't know. but i will tell you this. i will tell you this. conjunctivitis is not really a cross index for coronavirus. he could have allergies. >> they were both eyes. >> was it both eyes? i thought it was really just his left eye. but, look. again, the reason you can justify bringing it up is because we are swimming in a swamp of the unknown. >> you don't know. >> with these guys when it comes to coronavirus. we don't even know if they were testing the president and they know we don't know, and they won't tell us. >> and he admitted -- he said, at a press conference, that he was -- or he said, somewhere, that he was -- had been in the room with the -- with the president, earlier in the week, before the president tested positive for -- for coronavirus. i would be concerned.

i don't know if i'd want to sit that close to him. >> i hope he's getting tested every day. i. >> i do, too. >> there are people in this country who are getting sick and dying because they don't have access to the right kinds of testing. our kids are being screwed because we will not come up with a plan for enough and proper testing. you have the access. you have the magic cure. i hope you avail yourselves of it, and it'd be nice if you give it to your friends. >> they could have talked more about that. possibly, you know, since there are two more debates or whatever, these debates could -- they could be theme-oriented debates. where you have one theme. it could be just covid because we're dealing with it so much. >> we're in the middle of a pandemic. >> but we have a lot to talk about. the vice president towing the line, the president's line. same lies, different tone. but what do voters think of what they heard tonight? we'll talk about that. >> tone matters. if you are going to lie to me, be nice. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion,♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea

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joe biden has been very clear he will not raise taxes on anybody who makes less than $400,000 a year. >> he said he'll repeal the

trump tax cuts. >> if you don't mind letting me finish, we can have a conversation. >> there are no more hurricanes today than there were a hundred years ago. but many of the climate alarmists use hurricanes and wild flyers to -- of a green new deal. and president trump and i are always going to put american workers first. joe biden wants us to retro fit, it makes no sense, it will cost jobs. president trump -- >> thank you, vice president. thank you, vice president pence. >> president trump has stood up -- >> vice president pence, your time is up. thank you, vice president pence. >> we want to improve the relationship. but we're going to level the playing field and hold china accountable with what they did with the coronavirus. and with qassem soleimani was traveling to baghdad to harm americans, president trump took him out and america is safer. our allies are safer.

and the american people know president donald trump will never -- >> thank you, vice president pence. thank you, vice president pence. vice president pence. you know, vice president pence. i didn't -- vice president pence, i did not -- excuse me. >> susan, the american people deserve to know joe biden -- >> your campaigns agreed to the rules for tonight's debate with the commission on presidential debates. >> i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. let's do that a little more. in 1864 -- >> i'd like you to answer the question. >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. okay? >> so, vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris facing off, tonight, in the only vp debate of the 2020 race. a cnn poll of debate watchers finding 59% say harris was the winner, while 38% say it was pence. let's bring in, now, cnn political analysts mark preston, toluse olorunnipa. good evening, gentlemen. or good morning. mark, that was not a good look

for the vice president. but thank you -- the moderator had to -- she tried to stop him from talking but he just steamrolled her. >> yeah. you know, i felt bad for -- for susan page and, you know, don, we talk about this after every debate now. you and i have worked on so many debates together, town halls and what have you, and there's specific tools that you give your moderator to try to keep the train on the track. and i feel bad for susan paige because i don't think she was actually given those tools. given the authority to try to shut things down. there's so much controversy, of course, what we saw how donald trump acted last week that the commission tried to at least put guardrails on it. but they were -- there were really no guardrails on that. and quite frankly, we didn't see a debate tonight, right? we can all acknowledge that. we just saw a list of statements, given by both mike pence and kamala harris. >> yeah. yeah. i think you're right about that. and you're right about those tools for getting people and if you -- if you practice them and

you have them in front of you, you can easily get people to stop talking. well, one good way is to cut their mics, though, so maybe they should consider that. but, toluse, listen, pence has the same statements as trump. he repeats the lies of the president. he just does it, in a different tone. do voters -- do they -- do they -- what do they get out of it? and do they see through it? >> well, you're right. pence definitely had message discipline. i mean, he was going to get his points out, even if it meant interrupting the moderator. even if it meant, you know, ignoring various cues to stop and he pushed those points out and he did it with a demeanor that's calm and less chaotic than president trump. but it's hard to spin your way out of a pandemic. 210,000 people are dead. millions of people have caught this disease. the economy, you know, has

continued to only slowly recover from millions of jobs that have been lost. and people can't send their kids to school. so, watching television, they are seeing the vice president try to sort of calmly talk about all the great things president trump has done. and the people who are watching it know that their own lives have been impacted. they know the president just got out of the hospital for not following the right public health guidelines and catching this disease. so, it's hard to really try to spin your way through talking points out of this issue that the country is facing. it's a -- it's a global pandemic but america has been hit particularly hard. and it's a scar on their record and as much as they try to put out positive statistics and spin things with positive language, it just doesn't strike home for the people who are suffering through this. and who are seeing their own lives impacted. so it's a hard message that he tries to push. he probably did the best that you probably can, given the failures of this administration and the difficulty of defending it. but, at the end of the day, the american people see what's going on with their own lives.

and it's going to be hard for them to -- >> i'm glad you bring that up because i want to, you guys in the control room, if i can get the sound bite about health care that kamala harris made about coming for you. because i want to ask mark if that stuff -- because, mark, you know, kamala harris kept going back to health care. she kept pivoting, throughout many of her responses, even if the -- obviously, the debate moderator didn't ask her about it. but she kept asking, you know, she kept saying they're coming for you. they're coming for you. they're

>> i do think that she was effective, in selling the idea that republicans don't have a plan for health care. and all they are going to do is try to come and get it from you. we will see what happens, over the next couple days. but it's -- it's really a message they have been hammering home, you know, since the beginning of the campaign. now, it will be interesting to see, don, what happens in the next couple weeks. does health care continue to dominate? or do we just go right back to covid and the response of the administration? and that's what this election really hangs on, in the end. >> well, we hear that the biden campaign's real happy about her getting that point across, looking right into the camera. here is that moment, toluse, and then i'll get your response. >> on the other hand, you have donald trump, who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the great

depression. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who was responsible with president barack obama for the affordable care act. if you have a pre-existing condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. if you love someone who has a pre-existing condition, they're coming for you. if you are under the age of 26, on your parents' coverage, they're coming for you. >> toluse, as they say, how did that play in peoria? >> it's clear they are trying to run the 2018 playbook that was so successful for democrats a couple of years ago. they want this election to be about health care, about the coronavirus, about president trump's, kind of, very unpopular approach to the presidency. and you could see senator harris really punching at that issue, over and over and over again. vice president pence did not have much of an answer. you heard him respond, saying, you know, me and president trump have a strong and comprehensive health care plan. and then, he quickly pivoted right in the next sentence to talking about fracking or

talking about something that was completely different. he did not explain his health care plan that the public has been waiting for, for the better part of three years. and they know, in the republican circles, that this is a tough issue for them. this is an issue where they don't have much answers and that's part of the reason vice president -- vice president biden and senator harris have been punching, very hard, on health care. because they know this is an issue that democrats are stronger on and there's not much of an answer from the republican side, yet. >> mark, the election, less than four weeks away. and latest electoral college outlook shows biden crossing the 270 threshold. but everyone else, we all remember 2016. this is -- this is my conversation with chris, every single day. who's going to win? what do you think? and we all have 2016 ptsd. >> okay. wednesday after -- after the election of 2016, i remember being on air at about 2:00 in the afternoon, don. and i looked straight into the camera and i said mea culpa, mea

culpa, mea culpa. i was wrong. we were all wrong. we didn't read the american public right. but i will say this. one thing we have learned from 2016 is that you can't expect what's going to happen today, happen tomorrow. so, donald trump, even though he's down by, you know, a significant amount in some very key states. the fact is there's still four weeks left and he could make up that ground, don. >> all right. thank you, gentlemen. i'll see you soon. get some sleep. >> thanks, guys. >> we're right behind you. dirty 30. we got -- we're down to the dirty 30. >> i'm loving it. i mean, you know, look. this is the hope for the journalist is to be relevant during important times. and this is a big deal. i know people say it every election cycle. i don't feel that, every election cycle. >> no. no. no. this is a big deal. the re-election of the first, black president. okay. most people probably wanted the guy to get -- >> big deal.

>> well, the -- the election was a big deal. re-electing was not as big a deal but i think most people -- well, served two terms. but i think you're right. you always say this is the election of a lifetime. no, this one is the election. >> this is a big election because it's not about the two guys. it's really about the choice for the country. it's more of a selection than an election because they have two very different -- they represent two very different ideas about what this country is and can be. so, it's a big deal. >> if we're going to believe in science. >> you heard pence tonight. there are no more hurricanes now than there were a hundred years ago. intensity, my brother. intensity is what you are concerned about with climate change. >> but that's debating. >> huh? >> that's debating. >> that is true. >> as you would say. >> don't use my line. >> much more to come. 26 days, can you believe, until election day. and the attorney general bill barr allowing federal prosecutors to announce voter fraud investigations close to

election day. i'm going to tell you why he is changing the longstanding policy and what it means for you and your vote. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ are ywho experience occasional bloating, gas,s or abdominal discomfort? taking align every day can help. align contains a quality probiotic developed by gastroenterologists. it adds more good bacteria to your gut, to naturally help soothe your occasional bloating, gas, and abdominal discomfort 24/7. support your digestive health with align, the #1 doctor recommended probiotic. try align today, the pros in digestive health. also try align dualbiotic gummies to help support digestive health.

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and unlike some other companies, we don't raise the price when we make you something new. harry's. not the same. in the tubbs fire. the flames, the ash, it was terrifying. thousands of family homes are destroyed in wildfires. families are forced to move and higher property taxes are a huge problem. prop 19 limits taxes on wildfire victims so families can move without a tax penalty. nineteen will help rebuild lives. vote 'yes' on 19. traffic and air pollution will be even worse

after the pandemic. that's why we support measure rr to keep caltrain running. which is at risk of shutdown because of the crisis. to keep millions of cars off our roads, to reduce air pollution and fight climate change. and measure rr helps essential workers like me get to work and keep our communities healthy. relieve traffic. reduce pollution. rescue caltrain. [all] yes on measure rr. all right. now, this is about why the election matters. the justice department isong po

that will, now, allow federal prosecutors to announce investigations of allegations of voter fraud, during the election cycle. what's this all about? i'm going to ask ben ginsburg. been a friend of mine and help us understand this. been following ben for a long time. famous for the 2000 election litigation, hanging chads, is it right to recount? who has the right to control elections? won that one big at the supreme court. good to have you now, sir. >> thanks. nice to be with you, chris. >> so, the normal rule about investigations by the doj, during the election season, is? >> don't do it. you don't want the justice department impacting the election. that's why, what james comey did, four years ago, struck sort of a bad cord for interference by the political folks at

justice. >> sure, did seem self-serving, didn't it? that he had to write that letter because it was on his conscience. you know, it was really about his job, not his conscience. he got that mixed up. so, ordinarily, you don't say anything because the guideline in the investigation manual is basically semblance of impropriety. you don't even want people to think it's relevant in the process. now, they're changing it. how? and to what effect, in your opinion? >> i think that you have to look at it in the context of the president talking about fraudulent and rigged elections. and how the only way they can cheat is -- the only way they can win is if they cheat. and so, if this is a weaponization of the justice department, to help try and prove the theories he's been unable to prove, so far. then, it's -- then, it's worrisome. if these are decisions that are made by career prosecutors because there is evidence of

something amiss in the postal service or the military and the delivery of ballots. and it truly is a nonpolitical decision by career prosecutors, then, knowing that they're out there can help credential the -- the accuracy of the elections. so, it's really who -- who gave this order? was it career people? or was it political people? and is it going to be implemented by political people? or career people? >> well, let's -- let's stipulate, for the point of the discussion, that it could be done without political influence. we've seen almost no evidence of that, especially in this particular doj. and let's go to the even-if argument, counselor, which is, even if it was done because there are legitimate issues that career prosecutors find. well, that was always the assumption. and yet, the rule was you still don't do it because of prejudicial value. so, is that a good enough

rationale to change the rule? >> well, i'm not sure that it is. again, that's why there needs to be more reporting about what the motivation was. i mean, if, a week before the election, you saw people going into a drop box and removing ballots or stuffing ballots, you would not want either federal or state officials to stand by. you would want something done about that cheating. so, in and of itself, you -- you sort of have to be really on guard, givien the administration's rhetoric, unproven lettic, abo unproven rhetoric, about fraudulent and rigged election. but, on the other hand, if there is someone tampering with ballots through the postal service or the military in the delivery of ballots, you do want to do something about it. >> but, last question on this, counselor. even if that were to happen, it seems to assume that they would have no recourse in their investigation, except to make it

public. but they have the courts. if they find evidence of actual fraud and actionable fraud, they go, they get an injunction. everybody finds out about it because it's in a public forum. this -- this just smells bad. and i understand why you're giving it the benefit of due deliberation for more reporting but they're not going to tell us. >> well, don't get me wrong on this. what -- what the justice department did with the nine absentee ballots in pennsylvania, last week, was the wrong way to proceed. that should not have been a public announcement. on the other hand, if they do find evidence of -- of a crime, and file papers in court about it, it then becomes public. and it is using the -- the proper mechanism to stop infractions. but, if this is a sign that the justice department is going to double down on that pennsylvania strategy, of making more public announcements than actual filing of charges, that's very wrong

and should be -- and should be guarded against. >> and given the prejudicial value of the first instance, i think the burden shifts. and they have to give us comfort that this isn't what it looks like. i have to tell you, thank you, at this time in the morning, from washington, d.c. being a friend to the show. i appreciate it. you have a lot of currency, with people on both sides of the aisle. your voice matters. thank you, counselor. >> thank you, chris. >> all right. let's bring in cnn senior political analyst, ron brownstein, kirsten powers, and cnn political analyst, april ryan. how you guys all doing? >> fine. >> great. >> don't lie. you're all asleep . i know it. >> some lackluster answers. >> how you doing? i'm fine. >> so, let me discuss something with you guys, earlier in this show. you know, nice thing about having a two-hour show. we can take second bites at the apple. kamala harris, keers tirsten an

idea, it's great to have you and april for this, not that i don't love you, professor. but the idea that, you know, she had to abide by the rules. it's a woman. and the only worst thing to be in this society than a woman is a woman of color. so, you know, she's got to dance that dance. got to be careful. couldn't really come at him the way she wanted to. i am saddened by that because, functionally, i am the reason that it exists is a problem, right? it's not some of you will hate on each other but it's really men that create this -- this standard of what women are supposed to be. and it's dangerous and it's sad, especially as somebody who was raised by women and loves his daughters. but, did you think that was going on, kirsten, and then, april, please, follow on this. did you think that was going on with kamala's strategy tonight? >> i can't say, for sure. but, you know, my best guess would be yes because, as a woman, you know, i know this -- this firsthand. and i think, you know, watching

other women in the public eye and seeing how they are treated and actually it's not just men who do it. women hold women to different standards, also. and so, and you're right. if it's -- if it's a woman of color, then it's an even -- an even higher standard. and so, i think that she had to be very careful about not seeming too aggressive. and actually, she could -- she really nailed it, in my book. i thought she had the strength, and she seemed presidential. but she was very warm. it's just such a hard thing to pull off, you know, as a woman. but i do feel like she did that and i don't think she could be as pugilistic as we saw her be, frankly, in the presidential debates. i don't think it worked as well and especially as a vice presidential candidate, i think this was the tone she had to strike. >> what are you doing? your taxes? >> no, i'm not. there's a reason -- there is a reason i'm doing this because i'm going back to find things people are saying. how could anyone be married to kamala harris?

>> now, her husband wrote that. do you think that's weird that he would put that? no, i'm kidding. look, there is a lot of hate out there. >> someone else says kamala harris comes off as such an insufferable, lying b. sorry, it's just true. so, does that factor? does that make the point? or no? april? >> so, let's -- let's -- let's get into the weeds of this. kamala harris does not take tea for the fever. let's put that there. but she had to understand, going into this, there is a double standard. she did not want to be perceived as not just the angry woman but the angry, black woman. okay? there is a double standard. and we, also, saw it tonight with our friend susan paige, the moderator. if she came out against vice president pence, she would've been perceived as the words that you were just saying about kamala harris. she had to be careful as well and it's a double standard. and i think back four years ago, with hillary clinton, when she and donald trump were on that stage. and i remember that night, and

you all remember it as well. when donald trump followed her on that stage, and she told me, not long after the debates, she said, april, you know, i know what people would've said if i would've turned around. she said, trust me, i wanted to. she said but i could not because what would've been said the next day? the same words that you're saying about kamala harris. kamala harris has more of a problem because she is a woman of color. she is a black woman. and the spotlight is more so on her and it's unfortunate, in 2020, you have people saying how dare she go after vice president pence because of his stature? no, it's about raise ace and it about gender and we are still in that moment in 2020. >> april, i think some people wanted that from her. but i, also, think that it's -- it is -- it is race and it's -- listen. you're a woman. you guys know better than i. i, also, think is -- there's a first thing to it. she is the first. and so, you know, that's what do no harm is. if you're -- if you're the first at anything, you don't want to

screw it up. you want to make sure you get through it. >> let's talk about the real first. shirley chism, who ran for president, black woman, in 1972. she said -- she said, being black and a woman is a double whammy and it showed tonight. kamala harris was strong. i believe she won. but she had to hold back. i mean, and she had to smile throughout. and i know just -- if someone lies on me or twists my words, it's hard to smile through it and seem like you're really okay with it. but yet, ready to come for the sucker punch or the punch, if you will. at the end of the day, shirley chism is right. being black and a woman is a double whammy. >> that's what it deserves. you know, you have to cheapen it. you have to laugh at it because it takes away the power of it. at least, we hope. and just as an editorial point, stepping out of the role of journalist, i'm happy that my daughters get to see her, and get to see women like you two,

frankly. i mean, you guys are fire and ice. but i love that that is the spectrum of empowerment. >> which one is fire? which one's ice? >> put it this way. april ryan, every time she hits me, i see it coming. kirsten, when she says something to me, i kind of like fall in half after four steps i've walked away. i thought -- i thought it was fine. all of a sudden, my head falls off. >> what is ron brownstein? >> ron brownstein? he just always e-mails me later and says everything you said was wrong. but i think we're moving in the right direction. you know? we're allowing people to see what the reality can be, and not just the promise. so, that's a beautiful thing for me. now -- >> yeah, but, chris, if you -- if you -- if you look at michelle obama's speech during the democratic convention, there were people, you know, over at fox saying -- referring to her as an angry, black woman, which is just preposterous, right? if you look at the speech she gave, there was nothing angry about it. and so, that's what kamala

harris is dealing with. >> 100%. but remember, though, they do it because it works. okay? that's why pence, tonight, immediately, steps from the kkk, which is an organization where everyone in it is dispositively, demonstrably bad, and in no reckoning can you say that everyone who is on those streets is a rioter. riots are wrong. everybody knows that. but the equation is because it works. but, wait. let's bring in ron. ron, in terms of who had to check which boxes tonight, how did it line up for you? >> well, i didn't think harris was as deferential as -- >> he's frozen. >> i'm sorry. yeah. i don't think she was nearly as deferential. i mean, i thought she made the points and, you know, particularly, on covid.

at the beginning and there were critical moments where pence would not answer the questions. two, above all, that are highly relevant. he could not answer how president trump would protect people with pre-existing conditions if the supreme court strikes down the aca. and that's because there -- there is no plan that does so. it's not a bug, it's feature. the way they lower costs for the healthy is to expose those who have pre-existing conditions to greater risk and cost. and then, second, on -- >> there's not a bug in the plan. there was a bug on his head. >> oh, yeah. it's true. a bug on his head. and both of them, the same issue that is now going to be dominating the news next week, which is amy coney barrett's nomination. so, i guess, each of them did, you know, pretty much what you expected them to do. but they did it in a race where joe biden is now leading by, you

know, somewhere around ten points, nationally. >> uh-oh. he froze. we got to go. >> as well as georgia and maybe ohio. >> there he is. we're done. >> all right. thank you, all. i appreciate it. >> and i meant what i said. >> and he says what he means, sometimes. coronavirus cases rising all across this country, after months of decline. yet, the president, who has coronavirus, wants to get back on the campaign trail. stay with us. people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes

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a top adviser telling cnn that the president is eager to get back on the campaign trail just days after being hospitalized for the coronavirus. but there are a lot of questions about whether he is still contagious, and there is a lot we don't know about his diagnosis and his treatment. let's speak now to dr. larry brilliant. he is an epidemiologist and a cnn medical analyst. good to see you. how you doing? >> hello, don. nice to see you. >> let's talk about this memo from the white house that the doctor says that trump tested negative for antibodies last thursday night, but then tested positive for them on monday. what gives here? are those antibodies present because of the treatment he got? >> i would imagine so. i mean, usually you don't

develop neutralizing antibodies that show you have some immunity for a couple of weeks after you have first shown symptoms. and let's just walk this back. there is something wrong with the entire timetable. >> that's what i was going to ask you. you said weeks after you've shown symptoms. you think he was positive for longer than they're letting on to? >> you know, there is something wrong here. the only reason that they would be so reluctant to say when was his last negative test, what was the cadence of testing was that is it possible that he was shedding virus and infectious during the debate? and if that's the case, did he know that? and is this the kind of a man who would now go out on the campaign trail and willingly and knowingly infect others just in order to be back on the campaign trail? surely that couldn't be the case. you don't suspect that, don, do you? >> i would hope not. i mean, listen, chris has dealt with it.

obviously you. do you think he was possibly shedding virus at the debate? >> possibly, absolutely. probably? i don't know. i'd have to see the testing data and the history of testing. i want i also want to know if it's igm antibodies or igg. doctor, explain the difference and why it would be a relevant distinction. >> and not just whether it's igg or igm, because they come in at different times. that's the reason you're trying to find out the cadence. kind of orchestrated to which one comes first and how much after the infection. but not only what the antibody, but what the quantity is and whether it is in fact a neutralizing antibody, which means is it the antibody that will confer immunity. otherwise, we're just playing games. and on top of that, of course, he had a monoclonal antibody treatment. so he could just be reflecting the borrowed antibodies that he has from the treatment. >> how can anybody believe the

president's test results after the way that they handled the situation? >> i think that's the right question. >> although careful, because then you give them a reason not to put them out. damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. >> no, no, i don't think that's the case at all. i think we all really want to know. really, we don't want him to be sick. >> he is sick. >> we want to understand what happened because right now one of the largest outbreaks of coronavirus in the world is in the white house. one of the most important hot spots for coronavirus is in the white house. and we want to know not only for the sake of the president, but everybody who has been exposed to him, and any number of the appearances that he has made have a right to know if they should be talking to their doctor, if they should be trying to get treated, how often they should be tested, if they should be staying away from hugging

their loved ones. it is unethical for that information to be held back from people who have been in contact with an infectious disease. >> do we know the effects of the drugs that he's taken, that it would have on him physically and mentally? he put out a rambling video. he tweets crazy stuff all the time. could that -- >> that's him now. >> uh-oh, he is calling. >> now you're going get it, brilliant. >> that's it. he is calling me right now. how did you know. excuse me, don, just a second. special ring. >> you're not talking the remdesivir, your not talking about the cloenl antibodies. you're talking about the steroid. i treated people and it's a very powerful -- >> i'm really trying. i'm really trying. sorry. it's a very powerful steroid. and it does strange things.

i mean, you have heard of roid rage, steroid rage. i saw his face very flushed, a color that i haven't seen when he was on the steps of the white house. he was breathing very heavily, having a lot of difficulty in catching his breath. and yet he had more animation and was more aggressive than even donald trump usually is. i would be worried that -- excuse me one second. >> we can hear you. >> how smart can guy be if he can't even figure out how to turn off his phone. you're going to have to change your name. >> whoever is calling me is getting me in to trouble. >> it's probably cnn wondering if you're going to be on in the next hour. it's late at night here, you understand that. >> sure. >> i think that there is no question that he might be infectious. there is no question that he might be having an effect of the steroids. there is no question that having

a monoclonal antibody messes up your testing. but more importantly than all of that, we need to know when was his last negative test. what was the cadence of testing. we're not going to get mad at him at this point if he didn't get tested every day. but let's know what the test results are of the test that he's had so we can do contact tracing. >> doctor, we have less than a minute here. and quickly, if you can answer. saying what you said, given what you said, should he be on the debate stage next week with joe biden? >> no, he should be isolated. and we should be calling in cdc and these world class epidemiologists who spent their life preparing for doing an outbreak investigation of the complexity of this one. bring them in. let them do their job, and let the chips fall where they may. >> thank you, dr. average -- i mean dr. brilliant. >> ooh! >> that was chris saying that. thanks, dr. brilliant. >> i won't say anything about lemons. >> i appreciate that. we'll see you soon.

we already did the theme to, you know, what is it "all in the family." ♪ i'm so glad we have time together, just to have a laugh or sing a song, just get started and before you know it comes a time we have to say ♪ >> so long. ♪ so long . thanks for watching. our coverage of the presidential debate will continue. nice. good evening from the university of utah in salt lake city, welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020. sponsored by the nonpartisan commission on presidential debates. i'm susan page of usa today. it is my honor to moderate this debate. an important part of our democracy. we have a small and socially distant audience, and we've taken extra precautions during this pandemic. among