good evening. the president of the united states is certainly living up to the title of bob woodward's book about him. the book, of course, is "rage," and the president is clearly in one. he is lashing out at perceived enemies demanding the attorney general bring charges against his opponent. his 2016 opponent and describing senator harris as, quote, this monster. a pandemic that has now taken more than 212,000 lives in this country. but the president, being the president, isn't focusing on them or their loved ones or any covid experience, but his own. as a result, he is floating

dangerous ideas about how survivable it is because it was survivable for him. he is hinting he contracted the virus from the family's fallen u.s. service members because of how much they love him. on top of that, the president wants to start campaigning again as early as monday because of how good he feels. perhaps, because he's been taking potentially, mood-altering steroids. and late this evening, the white house physician put out a statement clearing him for return to public engagements as early as saturday. is he infectious, right now? unclear, from the white house physician. he is, as the marine guard outside indicates, back in the oval office. putting people around him potentially and their families at risk by not following cdc guidelines and isolating himself. is he, perhaps, kidding himself about his status at the moment? listen. >> no, i don't think i'm contagious. but -- i don't think i'm contagious, at all. >> in fact, unless he's superman or became covid positive, far

earlier than he is letting on, which is almost -- well, which is actually, entirely possible. it's almost certainly not true that he is not contagious. the cdc recommends at least ten days of isolation for anyone who's had covid, and said it could be as long as 20 days if, like the president, they have been hospitalized and needed oxygen. yet, the president is still tre treating his own experience as representative. and the lesson he's taking from it is that covid is nothing to worry about. >> i'm back because i am a perfect physical specimen and i'm extremely young. and so, i'm lucky, in that way. look. what happens is if you're anywhere around it, then you can catch it. people caught it and i'm not just talking about this location. i'm talking about many other locations. now, what happens is you get better. that's what happens. you get better. >> unless you don't. 212,000 americans never got better. they're dead. and of the 7.6 million people

who have been infected, many of them still haven't gotten better. thousands are hospitalized around the country. some continue to suffer debilitating and painful symptoms, for months after they've supposedly recovered from covid. hundreds are still dying, every day, right now. and the latest estimate is that deaths may reach 400,000 past the end of the year. but, look. the president, right now, is saying you get better. he had less to say at his own superspreader event. members of the household staff. three senators. one university president. and two military kmapders. commanders. and again, today, neither he, his doctor, nor his spokespeople, had anything to say about when he actually last tested negative. they are covering that up, for some reason. instead, the president suggested he might have contracted covid from gold-star families at a reception the day after the rose garden ceremony. >> and they'd come up and they'd

tell me a story about my son, sir, was in iraq. or he was in afghanistan. and, sir, he did this and he did that. and then, he charged in order to save his friends and, yes, sir, he was killed but he saved his friends. he's so brave, sir. and i can't back up, maria, and say give me room. i want room. give me 12 feet. stay 12 feet away when you talk. they want to hug me and they want to kiss me and they do. and frankly, i'm not telling them to back up. i'm not doing it. but i did say it's like, you know, it's -- it's obviously dangerous. it's a dangerous thing, i guess, if you go by the -- the covid thing. >> now, in addition to the narcissism and the callousness of that, there is also the fact that if he had worn a mask in those moments and the people around him had been asked to wear a mask, the risk would be reduced, as his own cdc guidelines point out. but when the president suggests

i may have been infected by gold star families, he's suggesting he may have been infected 48 hours before tuesday's debate with joe biden. and if he were tested every day as the white house previously claimed, he might have actually known it when he went to that debate. it would, also, mean, if he is right, that he had covid when he went to that rally on wednesday in minnesota. the same rally when hope hicks fell ill, and had to isolate inside air force one on the trip back. it would mean he had it the next day, thursday, when he went to his country club in new jersey to meet some high-dollar donors. think of all the people who came in contact with him in that duration. hundreds of people. and only now, according to late reporting from "the washington post," has the cdc been called in to help in contract tracing for the white house. "new york times" journalist michael shear, who told us he thinks he contracted the virus at the rose garden event, either early in the day or while traveling on air force one with the president, he said no contact tracers have reached out

to him. but don't take our word for it that the white house has been unsafe and cavalier about the spread of the virus. take mitch mcconnell's. that's right. that mitch mcconnell. >> i haven't actually been to the white house since august because their approach to how to handle this is different from mine and what i insisted that we do. to wear masks and prop socier s distancing. >> it's hard to hear but he is saying he didn't go to the white house since august 6th because he was worried how they were handling covid and it was different than the way he would make sure it's handled in the senate side. close ally of the president not even willing to come anywhere near the white house because of how unserious he thought the white house was being, even about keeping themself safe. and how unserious he still believes they are. might have been nice for mitch mcconnell to warn others not to go to the white house but seems to have kept that one pretty close to the vest.

hillary clinton's e-mails. he asked why she hadn't been indicted yet and called on attorney general bill barr to indict her and former president obama. >> unless bill barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction. unless i win and we'll just have to go because i won't forget it. and that includes obama and it includes biden. these are people that spied on my campaign and we have everything. >> the president also pulled out of the next debate and again falsely compared himself to winston churchill after the debate commission made the event virtual. >> no, i don't want to do a virtual debate because virtual debate is a joke. there's no reason. i'm in great shape. i just -- you know, unlike joe, i don't have the luxury of staying in a basement all day

long. i'm running a country. you know, when winston churchill was prime minister, he would stand in the top of buildings as hitler was dropping bombs on london. you know that. you've heard that. and he'd make speeches and put his fist up in the air. and say how dare you? you know, the mad dog, he called him. and, you know, it's -- i can't stay in a basement. i can't stay in a basement and he can. >> he said this before. churchill didn't -- wasn't the one standing on building tops as german bombs fell. edward morrow. churchill because he was so vital to his country and was a leader actually making important decisions that had ramifications on the battle field. he actually spent much of the blitz in a basement, in a massive bunker complex for his own safety. cnn's jim acosta is at the white house for us tonight. i understand the trump campaign

just issued another statement on the campaign. what are they saying? >> yeah, anderson. they are saying that, because of this letter from dr. sean conley, they came out earlier this evening, saying that the president is essentially clear to get back to what they are saying -- what they are calling public engagement on saturday. i.e., get back on the campaign trail. that the president could essentially be at the debate next thursday in miami. and they are calling on the debate commission to reverse course, do away with this idea of a virtual debate, and have a face-to-face, in-person debate, next thursday in miami. obviously, the debate commission is in charge of all this, not donald trump and not the trump campaign. but that's what they are saying, tonight. >> i mean, i guess, given the fact that this administration is covering up when the president actually last tested negative, why would anybody believe or have any confidence in what the white house is saying about the course of his illness and when he's able to be out in public? >> well, we can't trust what they've been saying, anderson. and obviously, dr. sean conley,

even though he has a -- a good reputation inside the white house, people inside the white house have told me they -- they like dr. sean conley. he has essentially been putting out information that the president wants put out to the public. we have said this, time and again. he seemed to do that earlier this evening, when he gave the president a green light to get back out on the campaign trail. i will say, anderson, we're now into day three of not independently observing, with our own eyes, how the president is doing. the white house has put out these propaganda videos. you know, they are starting to rival, you know, the propaganda videos that come out of russia and north korea where they put the president on the south lawn of the white house, and try to show him doing just fine. but we have -- we have no way of observing that. the only thing that we've been able to observe, over the last few days, is the marines standing outside of the west wing and officials telling us, yes, he's in the oval office and he is meeting with officials. and, oh, by the way, they're wearing personal protective equipment. but we have no way of independently verifying that because we haven't been able to get close to the situation, thank goodness, because none of us want to get sick.

but, anderson, no, there is no reason to trust anything they are saying, at this point. >> vice president pence postponed a trip to indianapolis, i think that was supposed to take place tomorrow. do we know why he did that? >> yeah. what the campaign is saying, what pence advisers are saying, is that mike pence wanted to get back to washington to get some rest after his debate, being out on the campaign trail. that he will be back out on the campaign trail on saturday. but, you know, make no mistake. they -- they made a last-minute decision to return to washington this evening. and instead of going to indianapolis and the vice president voting, it also raises questions as to what is going on here. we have no way of independently verifying any of these events, and whether or not any of it's related to the president's current condition. obviously, you saw what house speaker nancy pelosi was saying earlier today. she suspects the president's in some sort of altered state because of medications he is on right now. but one of the top white house officials right now, the

communications director, said, no, no, that is absolutely not the case. the president is strong. but no question about it, we are flying blind right here and we are on the dark side of the moon in terms of what we know in how the president is doing and what the rest of the team is doing at this point. >> thanks. perspective now from cnn senior political commentator, david axelrod. also, gloria borger and cnn chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta. i meant president obama, not david axelrod. time will tell. david, you tweeted today that the president has basically turned his own political demise into a, quote, surreal reality show. do you think this -- this -- i mean, does this get him anywhere? you know, bringing up the hillary clinton e-mail. i mean, it's all the greatest hits from -- from rants of the past. and only -- you know, with sort of infomercials for, you know,

remdesivir and other things thrown in. and free offers to seniors. >> no. the short answer is no. the -- i have to say, at this moment, it feels like the president is not well. the kinds of things that he said on that show. they're not unlike things he said in the past. but as you say, it was like a kind of spazmodic. but he is really disgorging his own resentments now. and maybe, it's because, at some level, he recognizes that he is not on course to win this race. but that -- that was a really appalling and, i think, alarming performance tods becau performance because we don't know what drugs he is on. we don't know what his condition truly is. and we don't really know whether he is of sound judgment, right now. >> gloria, calling senator kamala harris a monster today. calling -- calling her, you know, other things as well.

a communist. you know, again, not surprising, not shocking. it's -- it's what he does, i guess. it seems, i guess, desperate. given just so kind of ridiculous saying she's a communist. >> right. >> but is -- is this -- is any of this working for him? i mean, i'm not sure. you know, i know democrats think they're ahead in the polls. you know, i think a lot of people thought hillary clinton was ahead in the polls and -- and she didn't win. so i'm not sure, i mean, should democrats be confident? >> look. democrats are looking at the polls, too. and so, they are confident but they understand what happened in 2016. and the last thing they want to do is get overconfident because what that tells your voters is, oh, you can stay home. you don't have to vote. you don't have to return that ballot. so, they are -- they are not doing that. but what we are hearing and seeing from the president, as david is saying, is this kind of desperation. this flailing and the na name calling of kamala harris as

a monster and a communist and -- and everything else is -- is a president who needs enemies. he needs people. there is real oxygen, anderson. these enemies. and so, she is a convenient enemy for him because she says oh, she's the horse for the radical left. and by the way, this was stunning. he said this today. joe biden won't last two months. did you hear that? and what was that about? kamala harris is a woman of color. was he telling people, oh, okay, well, you know, she could be president in two months. i mean, it was kind of stunning to me. >> sanjay, when the president said, today, i don't -- he said, quote, i don't think i'm contagious at all, and that he feels perfect. that's not how this virus works. i mean, we have no idea what's going on with him. we don't know how long he's had it. we don't know how much he spread it. but, you know, they're trying to -- they are covering that up, successfully. is there any way to really know how he -- way to know how he's

doing? >> no, i mean, you know, we're sort of at the mercy of the doctors, who say that they want to brief people. and -- and -- and disclose how the president's doing. but then, they speak in these -- in these very vague, sort of ways. i mean, there was a convention that the medical profession communicates messages back and forth. and these letters and these statements and even the briefings have all been -- you know, we have had to sort of translate these things. so, we don't know. we do know that he wouldn't be out of his contagious period, yet. by, you know, lots of data and looking at the cdc guidelines. but i want you to listen to how dr. conley just was talking about this, just on monday. just three days ago. >> we're in a bit of uncharted territory when it comes to a patient that received the therapies he has, so early in the course. so, we're looking to this weekend, if we can get through to monday, with him remaining the same or improving, better

yet, then we will all take that final, deep sigh of relief. >> so, that was on monday, anderson. and so, here we are, on thursday, and he is saying we got to wait at least till the following monday. so, you know, several days from now. four or five days from now. and here we are, on thursday, basically saying that, you know, things are -- things are basically back to normal. you know, they -- they released this letter today. and i don't know if we have a shot of this letter. but, you know, again, there is a convention with the way medical professionals sort of communicate. one thing about this letter, right away, you'll notice that there's not even the -- the -- the temperature on here. it's hard to read, obviously. but i can tell you there's no temperature on here for somebody who has an infection and that's key because that's the -- not having a temperature is one of the -- one of the criteria for starting to come out of isolation. they didn't even mention the temperature here. instead, they say that he has a trajectory of -- he has advanced diagnostics in the right trajectory. i -- i -- i don't even know what that means. i mean, what -- what tests?

are those tests? so, it's purposely vague and -- and it's disappointing because, again, if you want to -- if you want to present information, then do it. otherwise, you're presenting this stuff that's sort of gibberish and hard to translate. >> it's interesting. in that letter, he talked about saturday will be ten days from thursday's diagnosis. he didn't say from the president's first positive diagnosis or first positive test. he just said thursday's diagnosis, which is the only diagnosis we've been told about. but the timeline doesn't really seem to match up. it seems like there -- there may have been -- you know, he may have known before this. we simply don't know. >> yeah. no. we don't know and -- and i still don't -- i'm not clear, obviously, as i pointed out. with this letter, are they trying to get serial, negative tests for covid? is that what they're relying on? and if so, that's not a good strategy because he's obviously been on all these different

medications. we know when, at least we were told, he first developed symptoms. but we, also, know he was -- he was obviously hospitalized. so, his duration of his contagious period may be longer, as a result of that. as you pointed out, anderson, up to 20 days. there are -- there are clear ways to communicate what's going on with the president. we still don't know if he has pneumonia. we don't know when his last, negative test is. we don't know, you know, what -- what the deal is with these medications or how they are basically monitoring those. if he is still on the steroids, that could be masking all these symptoms. i know we've talked about this before and i probably sound like a broken record. but they're purposely being vague. i know this. we read lots of these types of letters from doctors. this is not normal, what is happening here. and by the way, it sort of fits the pattern of other doctors' letters that we've had regarding president trump. we -- we just -- we can't really make sense of it. it's like putting the pieces of a puzzle together. >> david, there is this new statement from the trump campaign tonight about the debate. i've gotten a little just confused on what they are

actually now saying. saying basically the president could be there, in person. the debate is virtual. he said he won't do a virtual debate. do -- what do you think is going to happen? >> well, i think they're going to try and debate, somehow, because he's ten points behind and he desperately needs to do something to try and change the dynamic. but, you know, this is the problem. he -- he said, this morning, he won't do it. they're changing their -- their tune a little bit, tonight. it's the same way that he's dealt with, you know, the issue of the stimulus. one day, he's out. the stock market tanks. by nighttime, he is changing his position. and everybody's standing there, scratching their heads. and that's the position we're in on this debate. and, you know, maybe, they're in a test of wills with the debate commission and the biden campaign. but i got to tell you the truth. joe biden's under no pressure to debate, at this point. he's got -- he's got this race well in hand. he's said i'll show up for a virtual debate. and the president can take it or

leave it. >> yeah. david axelrod, gloria borger, sanjay gupta, thanks so much. appreciate it. coming up next, details of the alleged plot to kidnap the governor of michigan. michigan's attorney general joins us. later, bill gates joins us to talk about vaccines, therapies, including the experimental treatment that the president got. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424. new projects means you need to hire.gers. i need indeed. indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed.com/home.

and a majority of americans. say the vote for the next supreme court justice should wait till after the election. but instead of letting our voices be heard, trump and mcconnell are rushing it through

and taking a short cut to the highest court in the land. there's a pandemic devastating every corner of the country, but they're just rushing to play politics with the court. it's a lifetime appointment, tell senators to do it right. demand justice is responsible for the content of this advertising. instwith vicks sinex saline congnasal mist. for drug free relief that works fast. vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. ...i felt i couldn't be at my... ...best for my family. in only 8 weeks with mavyret... ...i was cured. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret... ...i was cured. mavyret is the only 8-week cure for all types of hep c. before starting mavyret your doctor will test... ...if you've had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant,... ...other liver problems, hiv-1,

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overthrow several state governments and according to the federal complaint, quote, instigate a civil war. today, governor gretchen whitmer made a statement. >> hate groups heard the president's words, not as a re-duke b rebuke, but as a rallying cry. as a call to action. when yoour leaders speak, their word words matter. they carry weight. >> in a moment, we'll be joined by michigan's attorney general. first, randi kaye with details of the alleged plot. >> the alleged conspirators are extremists who undertook a plot to kidnap a sitting governor. >> that governor, gretchen whitmer of michigan. investigators say they planned to kidnap whitmer from her vacation home in michigan before the november election and put her on trial for treason, after she shut down the state to stop the spread of the coronavirus.

according to the criminal kplapkplap complaint, the fbi began investigating earlier this year after learning of the scheme through social media. they infiltrated the group using confidential informants. in june, the complaint says one of the six main suspects, adam fox, live streamed a video on a private facebook group complaining about the state of michigan controlling the opening of gyms. the suspect allegedly referred to governor whitmer as a tyrant bitch. recording of fox in july describing the plot as a snatch and grab. saying, on the tape, grab the effing governor, just grab the bitch. during a group chat, that one person should knock on the door and when she answers, just cap her. >> the complaint further alleges that fox purchased a taser for use in the kidnapping. and that the group successfully detonated an improvised explosive device wrapped with shrapnel to test its

antipersonnel capabilities. >> of the six men at the center of this plot, five are from michigan. the others, from delaware. according to the complaint. but they enlisted others, members of a michigan militant group called wolverine watchmen. this group was planning to assault the michigan state capitol, using molotov cocktails to destroy police cars. in all, 13 people have been implicated in the plot against officials and law enforcement. one says the group met in a basement accessed through a trap door hidden under a rug. this isn't the first time whitmer's life has been in danger. she faced multiple death threats after issuing stay-at-home orders to help control coronavirus in her state. in april, protestors gathered at the capitol causing gridlock and demanding the stay-at-home order be lifted. later that month, this was the scene inside the capitol. protestors demanding an end to the state of emergency. many, openly carrying firearms,

which is legal in the state. that same month, president trump tweeted liberate michigan. today, after the plot against her was made public, governor whitmer called out the president, who just last week, refused to condemn far-right groups. >> hate groups heard the president's word, not as a rebuke but, as a rallying cry. as a call to action. when our leaders speak, their words matter. they carry weight. >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn, palm beach, florida. and joining us now is michigan attorney general, dana nestle. attorney general, appreciate you being with us. what more can you tell us about the size and the scope of this alleged plot against governor whitmer? and any concerns you still have about exactly what was in the works? >> well, yeah, we're concerned, anderson. there remains a number of individuals, a number of groups, that are out there, and that

continue and -- to plan acts of domestic terrorism. not just in michigan but in a multi-jurisdictional fashion across many states. this is not a jurisdictional problem, this is an american problem. so, yeah, we have concerns and unfortunately, it seems as though those who would engage in this kind of behavior, they have been able to use the covid epidemic and the civil unrest from the black lives matter movement to recruit more members. so, we've had an exponential rise in terms of the number of groups in our state and around the country. as well as the membership. >> in -- in some of the documents, there's some connection or at least some interest i think by one of the people in qanon, as well, which we have seen obviously grow a lot online. how direct of a line, if any, do you believe you can draw from these suspects back to the unrest in michigan's capitol earlier in the pandemic? because people, obviously, remember seeing and hearing, you know, very ugly rhetoric. armed -- armed people, you know,

at the statehouse yelling at law enforcement. yelling at legislators. >> well, i can tell you that many of the defendants that were charged today, both in the federal and state indictments were there and present at that event. and that event was, also, utilized to recruit more members. so, i think it was a pivotal point. but frankly, many of the protests that have gone on here in our state have been used for recruitment and to further the cause. >> the president, if memory serves me, the president actually praised those people when the unrest in michigan, the armed people at the statehouse. i -- i -- i don't have it in front of me. but, as i recall, he, you know, praised them. that was around the time the liberate michigan tweet. >> he sure did. he indicated they were very good people and that the governor ought to actually sit down and negotiate with these armed gunmen. which, of course, is outrageous.

and i am so tired of seeing his perpetual tweets where he tweets law and order, and the fact is those who believe in law and order and who support law and order, don't support domestic terrorists. those of us who really believe in the premise of law and order hold domestic terrorists accountable. >> because just i mean, in the -- in the charges against these people, they planned to attack law enforcement personnel. so i mean, this whole idea that these are law-and-order enthusiasts. they're talking about, you know, having ied, molotov cocktails, to hit police vehicles. >> they do. they're very anti-law enforcement, many of these groups. so, it is so stunning to me that you will see some of our state politicians, actually, that will be out at their events speaking at their events. hobnobbing with these individuals, at their events. and then, go back and expect to be supported and often are supported by police unions. and yet, here they are

fraternizing with literally the enemy of police departments and police officers and those who wish to execute law enforcement officers. so, it really doesn't make any sense to me. but unfortunately, it's the state of affairs right now in our state and really across our nation. >> there's been so much talk of, you know, fears of civil conflict. fears of society disintegrating. and -- and i mean, i think that's one of the reasons this is so concerning to people. i'm wondering what your message tonight is, not just to citizens of michigan but americans around the country who are hearing about this, reading about this. and, you know, are -- are afraid of that. are afraid that there may be other folks out there just like, you know, these, you know, wanna-be-weekend warriors and who knows what they are up to? >> i guess, my message is this. first of all, i stood on a stage today, not just myself and the colonel of the michigan state police. but we were joined by the fbi and by the u.s. attorneys of both the eastern and western

districts of michigan. so, this was truly a case of both state and i'm a democrat standing on the stage with trump appointees, who were also, you know, highly engaged in this. and -- and pivotal in terms of ensuring that justice was brought against these individuals. so, there are those of us in law enforcement that are still willing to hold bad actors accountable, and we are watching these bad actors. and we are aware what they are doing, and we're doing everything we possibly can to protect the public from some of the egregious acts that they have planned. but my other message is this. we can no longer afford, in this nation, to have our elected leaders, like the president of the united states, sending not just winks and nods frequently, you know, hear it called a dog whistle. it's not a dog whistle to these folks. it's, literally, a command to action for domestic terrorists. and it needs to stop. we cannot have people in

positions of authority, like that, who are encouraging the work of -- of people who wish to destroy this country. >> yeah. attorney general nestle, i appreciate your work. thank you very much. up next, the pandemic shows no signs of slowing down. i will speak with bill gates. he joins me live. co-chair of the bill and melinda gates foundation. what's ahead and how we're going to cope with it. how about no

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the coronavirus death toll in the united states is now more than 212,000 medium in thpeople country. the staggering numbers, of

course, little sign of things slowing down. high infection numbers at the white house. the overall lag in widespread testing, contact tracing. certain bill gates is joining us, co-chair of the bill and melinda gates foundation. he joins me now. bill, thanks for being with us. looking at where the u.s. is right now in this pandemic and during the fall and the winter, cases on the rise, not just in small clusters but across most of the nation. how concerned are you about the months ahead? >> well, i'm very concerned. the forecasts show that the deaths are going to go back up, almost to the level they were in the spring. and, you know, it's people are going to be indoors more. the compliance with the distancing and the mask use is going down, in many areas. it never got supergood, in some

areas. so, except for the innovative tools, that i'm sure we'll talk about, this is going to be a very difficult fall because people, you know, the economic effects, the -- the tiredness, you know, the kids not being able to go to school. this continuation is a very difficult thing. >> you -- you've talked about the -- some of the sophisticated tools, the therapeutics, that -- that are coming and some d-- soe are here. can you just talk a little -- let's talk a little about regeneron. you've been optimistic about it. it got obviously a big endorsement from president trump because he's been able to receive it. he is calling it a cure. he is calling on regulators to give it emergency-use authorization. do you support the idea of the emergency-use authorization? and i assume it is it's not a c >> no. well, the word cure is a bit of an overpromise. that makes it sound it looks like works for everyone and the whole concern about this disease

should go away. and that's the last thing we want people to think about. the monoclonal antibodies, which is what regeneron is, that's always been the most promising therapeutic category. the other therapeutic categories, the antivirals, like remdesivir, has only had modest benefit. you know, there may be one more of those. plasma. hyperimmunoglobin. for many months, our foundation and others have been working on and talking about are these monoclonal antibodies. there are several companies. ee ee eli lilly. later, astrazeneca. and so, the supply will go up. the early data looks quite good. you know, we saw in the lilly data, that over 60% of the people who got it, early, there

was a 60% reduction in the number that -- that needed to be hospitalized. now, as we get to larger numbers, our confidence in that will go up. but -- >> so that's something that would be given to people early on, after they test positive? >> yeah. so, the dexamethasone, which is really the only significant intervention/drug we have is a late-stage. in fact, it's a little confusing why, in the case of president trump, that was given when it -- when it was. you know, it modulates the immune system, which has a net benefit in late stage. the monoclonal antibodies. if you test positive, like he did, and then your oxygen is going down and you're above 60, that is a perfect target for the monoclonal antibodies. eli lilly feels they can help patients with quite a bit less, more like .7 grams, than the 8

grams that president trump got. and the lower the dose, of course, that means not just a few people but lots of people, not just in the united states but elsewhere, could get it. and so, our foundation reserved factory capacity to make monoclonal antibodies about six months ago. and now, with eli lilly, we are putting those into the factory. and if everything goes well, the cost of this intervention could be only a few hundred dollars, or even under $100 if things went really well. we need to prove that quite a small dose, as low as .3 grams, is effective. >> the -- the -- i know the trump administration had put limits on stem cell research by the federal government. and regeneron, i believe, uses embryonic stem cells or the -- it was developed with -- with that use. has that been -- would that be an issue, moving forward, for

widespread use and distribution of it? >> well, not outside the united states, certainly. i don't know the facts on that. >> okay. >> you know, when there are -- when there is that, those are cell lines that are usually decades old. so it's not something that's connected to any current controversy, activity. you know, and it's very helpful for testing quite a few things. in the -- both in the vaccine area and in the antibody area. but i don't know, in this case, exactly what happened there. you know, it is ironic that trump, you know, when i met with him, the whole idea of vaccines, he was a vaccine skeptic and got me talking with people who just didn't believe in vaccines. now, you know, we need leadership to show that we're really not going to approve something till it's safe and, you know, the country really depends on getting back to normal on vaccine progress. >> yeah. i mean, that -- it's a huge

concern about even if there -- when there is a vaccine, if there is a vaccine that works and it's able to be distributed, will people actually take it? you know, kamala harris was asked about this at the debate. she said if -- if dr. fauci at the cdc said take it, she would take it. if the scientists said take it, she would take it. if president trump said take it and the scientists didn't, she wouldn't. what do you look for, when deciding to take something or -- or not? i -- i assume you follow the science. >> sure. you know, it was bizarre that the white house was trying to block the fda from requiring two-month safety database and very, you know, they claim the companies were pushing that. there's no way that's true. and so, it's really novel that you get political interference with a regulatory agency that has its integrity and

independence. you know, we saw that with the plasma whether they embarrassed themselves. i don't think they will make that mistake again. in fact, they stood up to the white house and the guidelines were updated, which is a -- a very positive thing. so, you know, the fda, including its outside experts, the companies, you know, i think the -- the data will come out. not everyone will be willing to take it right away. but as they see the first 20 or 30% taking it, and they see that they're getting a benefit and you're not reading about a lot of adverse side effects. then, i think, more people will be willing. and, you know, we need to really drive this thing down to get well over 70%. so eventually, it's got to be quite probably accepted. >> dr. rick bright, the former chief after being os tra

sighted. he spoke today about what's happening with scientists and i just wanted to play some of that for or viewers and ask you about it. >> he has never told us the truth about the risk or the seriousness of this outbreak. he has not told us the truth about his status or when he was infected. you're right. when you hide the truth and you a are' not transparent, you are hiding something much worse. and by hiding that, by lying to the american public, and not telling us the full truth, you're actually prolonging the duration and impact of this pandemic. you're actually allowing more people to die. >> just the reputation of the cdc and other agencies, there's obviously extraordinary people, thousands of them, who work at cdc and the fda and are experts in their field and it's, you know, the gold standard for -- for information on epidemics and the like. how does the reputation of these agencies -- i mean, can it bounce back, given all that's been going on, the political pressure that's been put on them? >> we -- we need it to bounce back. and we'll have to do a

postmortem. no one expected the politician to grab the microphone, in this way. the cdc is trained to talk to the public. tell them the truth. phrase it in a way that, you know, even though it's somewhat bad news, people get ready for this. and they -- you know, they made some testing mistakes, early on. but then, their voice really -- where is it? you know, you -- you don't see it, hardly at all. and so, when you listen to a politician who doesn't have the background in these things, of course, you know, there's a tendency to think, well, what did the people who are expert, what do they think? what are they saying? somebody who's willing to say, hey, we have eg've got a big ch that we're going to have to work on together, including changing our behavior.

masks being at the top of the list. so, it's been amazing that dr. fauci has been willing to speak out and, you know, well admired for the role he's played. you know, thank goodness that there's at least some expertise getting through the >> you know, i just talked to chris murray on some of the projections, and i think the latest one they're looking at is like 400,000 deaths in this country. i can't remember if it was by the end of january or beginning of february or the beginning of january. i mean that's an extraordinary number. do you think this is worse than the so-called spanish flu pandemic back in, you know, 1918? >> well, the spanish flu, we had no ability to make therapeutics or to make a vaccine. and so eventually that had to develop herd immunity, and it

went through two very tough years, even a little bit of a third year before it burnt out. and so the deaths of that by the time it was done are much higher than what we've had so far. >> yeah, it was like 675,000. >> if the vaccine works, we won't -- we won't suffer the millions of deaths in the u.s. that the spanish flu caused. >> earlier today i spoke with the former director of the cdc dr. jeffrey copeland for a town hall we're doing airing this weekend. i asked him what life might look like once a vaccine is available, and i just want to play what he said. >> the idea we can just throw everything away and don't need those masks or the other actions we've been taking and go back to an earlier era of how we lived is highly unlikely. the performance of the vaccines, some of them, may be helpful but not utterly preventive or curative, and in which case

masks, distancing, everything that we repeat over and over again will be part of our life for some time to come. >> he also made the analogy that when hiv was first identified, the secretary of hhs at the announcement said they would have a vaccine within a year, and obviously 40 years later we still don't have one. do you think he's right that it's unlikely we go back to a maskless era? >> well, hiv is a very difficult target that mutates more, and dr. fauci actually did tell people who were giving overoptimistic projections that he didn't think that was likely. so this is a very different target. but the statement that was made is quite valid in that -- for three reasons. first of all, the early vaccines, although they'll meet a flethreshold of effectiveness that effectiveness won't be super high. so we might have to wait until a

second generation vaccine. second, you've got to get very big coverage of that vaccine, possibly over 70%. and, third, whenever the virus is outside the u.s., we cannot block things so that it won't come in. so you see countries that actually have done quite well, whether germany or south korea, australia. they are having these re-infections. and so the things that are great risk, like crowded public events, restaurants, bars, those -- we have a lot to do in terms of quality of the vaccine, coverage, and global before you really are back to normal. >> yeah. >> some things, as the vaccine starts to roll out, we should be able to use that to let young people go back to school because that's such a priority. >> the gates foundation put out its annual goalkeeper's report

last month, and it's always fascinating to read. it showed the effects of the coronavirus, that they've really stopped 20 years of progress toward the u.n. sustainable development goals and that by nearly ever indicator, the world has actually regressed. it's not just directly coronavirus-related. it's all the things that aren't being done because of coronavirus, the distribution of other vaccines and other treatments and hiv drugs. i mean it's an incredibly sobering assessment. >> yeah. sadly the disruption of the health system broadly in africa because their direct coronavirus deaths are luckily not gigantic outside of south africa, these disruptions to the health system are accounting for a lot of the deaths. so the number of deficits we've created with this are very large. our goalkeeper's report is mostly well known for being optimistic because all the years up till now, we document that

slow but positive progress to reducing malnutrition and childhood death. so most of the time once a year, you can say, wow, humanity is better off today by these key measures. but the pandemic has been a gigantic setback, even in areas that are very indirect, people might not be fully aware of. >> just bottom line, someone watching this tonight, a year from now, do you think -- do you think they'll have to still wear a mask when they go outside or should still a mask when they go outside? >> i think if theaters are opening and you're going into a theater, if there's some spacing at sports events. i don't think we will have done the elimination. that is, i think somewhere in the world for the next two years, there will be this virus. and so a lot of the things that

can cause super-spreading events will be very restricted even a year from now. but i do think that we're likely to have a vaccine. we'll have some coverage, and so certain activities like k through 12, high school, a lot of colleges, that will be able to get back starting in the summer and even more as we move into the fall. >> bill gates, it's always just so great to have you. i always learn a lot. i really appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you. a quick programming note. there's going to be a special edition of our cnn global town hall, coronavirus facts and fears, saturday at 9:00 p.m. eastern. sanjay gupta and i join four former directors of the centers for disease control. there's breaking news on hurricane delta. the national hurricane center says the storm has continued to strengthen. it's now a category 3. where it's headed and the latest forecast when we continue.

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