good evening. with 220,000 americans now dead from the coronavirus, we begin tonight with the president's own words, and how they speak to his priorities. which seem to revolve, right now, around settling grudges, not saving lives. the first clips you will hear are from a campaign conference call that he phoned in today. now, before we play it for you, you should know today marked day one of what the white house officially declared to be, and i am not making this up, national character counts week.

reading from the proclamation, quote, throughout this week, we recommit to being more kind, loving, understanding, and virtuous. this is actually signed by donald j. trump. clearly, he did not write it but he did sign it. so with that in mind, here is the president on the campaign conference call today. >> people are tired of covid. i have the biggest rallies i've ever had and we have covid. people are saying whatever. just leave us alone. they're tired of it. people are tired of hearing fauci and all these idiots. these -- these people. these people that have gotten it wrong. fauci's a nice guy. he's been here for 500 years. he called every one of them wrong and he's like this wonderful guy. a wonderful sage. and yet, we keep him. every time he goes on television, it's always a bomb. but there's a bigger bomb, if you fire him. >> cnn was given access to the call by a source, not that the president would mind, because

here's what he said a moment later. >> if it's a reporter on, you can have it just the way i said it. i couldn't care less. >> i couldn't care less, says the president. perhaps, we finally have the answer to that question melania trump's coat once posed. i really don't care. do you? the president couldn't care less that dr. anthony fauci is the nation's foremost infectious disease researcher. president couldn't care less that he is a nonpartisan career professional who's been at his job since 1984 and awarded the meed me medal of freedom by a republican president. and i am quoting his official biography, has advised six presidents on hiv/aids and many other domestic and global health issues. he was one of the principal architects of the program that has saved millions of lives throughout the developing world. that is the man the president is mocking, and couldn't care less that we know it. or that we hear the sarcasm and contempt for a lifelong public servant and, quote, all these

idiots. because, as he doesn't mind saying, he's one smart guy. >> you know, my uncle is a great -- he was at m.i.t. he taught at m.i.t. for i think like a record-number of years. a great supergenius. dr. john trump. i like this stuff. i really get it. people are surprised that i understand it. every one of these doctors said how do you know so much about this? maybe, i have a natural ability. maybe, i should have done that, instead of running for president. >> dr. redfield there, behind him, kind of smiling. laughing along. not realizing he's, soon, going to get knee capped and made irrelevant. when the president said that, just 14 people had died, by the way. not 14,000 or 1,400. 14 people had died. 220,000 lives later, the president still believes he knows better than the experts. >> if you vote for biden, he will surrender your jobs to china. he will surrender your future to the virus. he's going to lock down.

he's going to want us to lock down. he'll listen to the scientists. if i listened, totally, to the scientists, we would, right now, have a country that would be in a massive depression. instead of, we're like a rocketship. take a look at the numbers. >> listen to the scientists. there is a difference between slavishly following scientists and listening to scientists. not sure why the president is mocking the idea of listening to scientists. if the president had listened to the scientists when the cdc put out guidelines recommending mask wearing, he could have helped save tens of thousands of lives, and opened up the economy sooner. instead, he immediately mocked cdc guidelines, literally, as he was announcing them. and he gave his supporters license to disregard basic, public health measures. and to his economic analysis that we're like a rocket ship right now, according to the latest numbers from the labor department, 890,000 people filed jobless claims, up 53,000 from the week before. so no, the economy is not going up like a rocket ship.

what is going up, which the president won't tell you, is the number of people infected with covid. president doesn't want to say that. we're rounding the corner. rounding the turn, he says. but the scientists at johns hopkins university, who have the grim and unfortunate job of gathering case and mortality records, they will tell you that. if you listen to them, which the president doesn't. as that climbs, so does the number of people getting sick enough to need hospital care, which traditionally lags case numbers by several weebks. >> we do have vaccines and therapeutics coming down the pike. but when you actually look at the time period for that, the next 6 to 12 weeks are going to be the markedarkest of the enti pandemic. >> that's epidemiologist, mike osterholm. he says the challenge, going forward, is getting a message to

the public that quote reflects the science and reflects reality. which isn't easy, when the only task force member or task force adviser the president does listen to is this guy, dr. scott atlas. doesn't have the qualifications as an epidemiologist. he is a radiologist. apparently, he's very good at that. he he's appeared on fox news a lot. over the weekend, he tweeted, masks work? no. unquote. twitter took it down. prompting dr. deborah birx to express relief to her friends. dr. birx, like dr. fauci and osterholm but, unlike dr. atlas, is an expert in this field. the source saying she also told friends that fighting the virus is, quote, hard enough without atlas. yet, he now has the president's ear. and he's preaching what he's preaching is music to the president's ear. he's apparently a mask skeptic, who reportedly is interested in herd immunity. which actually, experts say is

one thing if it's achieved through vaccination. and something far deadlier if you do it by simply letting people get infected. yet, that seems to be the course the president is taking because, you know, his uncle taught at m.i.t., i guess? by the way, his uncle john trump was a physicist and electrical engineer. apparently, a pretty good one as well. but not a virologist. not an infectious-disease specialist. not an epidemiologist or a biostatistician. nor, is dr. atlas but dr. atlas is apparently telling the president what he wants to hear. we will have a former cdc director shortly to discuss herd mentality, as the president has called it. dr. anthony fauci does not believe in that and he is not telling the president what he wants to hear. here he is talking about the white house reception for amy coney barrett. the one which most people, including the president and dr. atlas, were not wearing masks. >> were you surprised that president trump got sick? >> absolutely not. i was worried that he was going to get sick when i saw him in a

completely precarious situation of crowded, no separation between people, and almost nobody wearing a mask. when i saw that on tv, i said, oh, my goodness. nothing good can come out of that. that's got to be a problem. and then, sure enough, it turned out to be a superspreader event. >> which is certainly true given how many people attended the event, subsequently became ill, including the president, former new jersey governor chris christie, who came away seemingly chastened by his experience. taking opportunities to call on people to cover their faces, maintain social distancing, and stay away from large gatherings. as for the president, he is now attacking legitimate experts and mocking his opponent for believing in science. which raises the question from the top if putting out a clear, science-based message for covid isn't such a priority. then, what else is? well, here is the president, yesterday, in carson city, nevada.

>> the dishwashers. they had a little problem. they didn't get enough water. like, so people would run 'em ten times. so they end up using more water. so, i hate to say the three things. it's the shower. it's the sink. and you know the third element in the bathroom. but i don't say it because every time i say it, they only talk about that one. because it's sort of gross to talk about, right? so, i won't -- i won't talk about the fact that people have to flush their toilet 15 times. okay? i will not talk about it. i'll only talk about showers and -- okay. but there is three things. i won't talk about it. the shower. the worst. you ever get under a shower where no water comes out? and me. i want that hair to be so beautiful. [ cheers and applause ] i want the hair to look good. i go into some of these hotels. you know, you travel. and i go into these hotels. nice hotels. it's not their fault. and i get in there and say -- i can look at it now.

i say, here we go. turn on the drip. drip. drip. drip. now, you go into a shower and the water pours out. you go into a sink and you can wash your hands, very nicely. beautiful. and the third thing, don't worry about. okay. >> yeah. that took a lot. there's so much to stay but givn the white house has declared it national character counts week, i'm just going to commit to being more kind and virtuous. more now from cnn's jim acosta at the white house. do we know if there was a particular reason the president lashed out on fauci? was it that he just saw him on 60 minutes the night before? or was it general rage, amid the pandemic, and anxiety over the election? >> i think that is part of it. as you know, he believes in counter punching. but keep in mind, we might be at the end of the fauci rages-news

cycle and at the beginning of the debate commission supreme court rage news cycle with these late, breaking developments that the debate commission is going to approve of some muting of the microphones at the upcoming debate on thursday. and the supreme court is going to allow mail-in ballots to come in past election day, potentially. and that is also a defeat for the republicans. and so, he's not going to be happy with either of those developments. but, anderson, i will tell you. in terms of what the president has been saying about dr. fauci. i talked to one adviser earlier today who said this is not smart. this reminds americans of the president's handling of the coronavirus pandemic. that is a subject they would like to avoid. and i talked to another adviser this evening who said this just doesn't make any sense. this is not what they want to be talking about two week bfrs ts the election. >> it's so interesting because, for a long time, he tried to get as close to fauci as possible. and he talked about this publicly. knew about fauci's favorability ratings. that he was viewed as -- as

widely up widely respected and the president tried to glom onto that, as much as possible. interesting, in the final days of campaigning, he is choosing to go after somebody who is well respected and has a track record of service. jim acosta, thanks very much. we have perspective now of the president's ongoing assault on science and scientists. dr. tom frieden. also, dr. sanjay gupta, our chief medical correspondent. dr. frieden, you hear the president undermining dr. fauci's contributions to science. i mean, given we are about to -- i mean, the president says we are rounding a turn. if we're rounding a turn, it sounds like we're about to round an oncoming turn into a truck. given what's about to happen in this country, does this make any sense? >> well, i can't talk about the politics. but i can talk about the science. what's happening is that, because of a failed, federal response, we're having a steady increase in cases in much of the u.s. the midwest. the west. we have, still, very high case

count throughout much of the south. and this is a reflection of a failed federal response. it's not about agreeing or disagreeing with one individual. it's about whether you follow policies, that will protect people. and that gets us into the whole herd immunity discussion, which has been really, very distressing to hear. because you are talking about sacrificing the hives lives of hundreds of thousands of americans, based on a theory that's almost certainly wrong. >> yeah. i mean, sanjay, i -- i just don't -- i don't understand just the -- the -- i mean, i don't understand how somebody who is the leader of this country, knowing that the projections are, according to chris murray who we have had on, even who i talked to just a couple days ago. by early february, an additional, some 200,000 people i think. i think it was up to about 400,000 people will -- will -- will be dead, by then. so, a growth from 220,000, or so, right now, to 400,000 by the

end of february. that could be drastically reduced, by 70,000 or more, if 95% of the country wore masks. the fact that the leader of this country is not doing everything he can to save as many lives as possible and get people to wear masks. it's -- it's -- it is just unconscionable. >> look. i think you cannot disentangle anything from politics, nowadays. i mean, i hate to say it. i agree with tom frieden, of course, that, you know, we want to talk about the science here. the problem is this isn't a scientific discussion, anymore. right? i mean, anderson, you laid out the numbers. people know the numbers. you got -- you got significant percentage of the country that hears they could be part of a movement to save tens of thousands of lives by wearing a mask. and they basically say, i'll pass. ain't gonna do it. so, what is -- that -- that's not a scientific discussion. we could explain. we can show, over and over again, as we have been doing for months, about the efficacy of

masks. we can show what the virus looks like, in someone who wears a mask and who doesn't wear a mask. the likelihood of transmission dropping sixfold. saving tens of thousands of lives, like you said. what is this discussion that we are having, at this point? i mean, it was vile what the president said about dr. fauci, who is spending most of his time trying to come up with vaccine, you know, and therapeutics and things like that. and is speaking to the american people because he wants to educate them and getting attacked for it. it's totally about politics. i hate to say it because i'm a medical reporter. but my job, i mean, this is -- this has become a political discussion, anderson. and i hate it. like it or not, though, that's what it's become. >> dr. frieden, i want to play something president trump said earlier today at one of his rallies. take a listen. >> they're getting tired of the pandemic, aren't they? getting tired of the pandemic. you turn on cnn. it's all they covid. pandemic. covid. covid. you know why? they're trying to talk everybody out of voting.

people aren't buying it, cnn, you dumb bastards. they're not buying it. >> he used the same line about dr. fauci. people getting tired of hearing fauci talk about the pandemic. i agree. everyone's tired of the pandemic. i don't know anyone -- you know, i know, in particular, you know, drrs a doctors and nurses and, you know, medical technicians and everybody who has really put their lives on the line. and, you know, grocery store, check-out people, and delivery people who have risked their lives to enable the rest of us to be able to stay at home more. and to -- to be able to stay safe. i agree, people are tired of it. that doesn't mean anything. it doesn't mean that the virus gets tired. the virus is the same virus, as it was before. it doesn't know that we're tired. it doesn't care that we're tired. >> right. i think it's true that all of us are sick and tired of this virus. but the virus isn't tired of making us sick.

and the fact is that we have the possibility of really making a big difference. the response to, we're tired of it, shouldn't be let's give up. because that's essentially what herd immunity is saying. let's let it infect a bunch of young people and protect the vulnerable. it's -- it's an alluring argument that suggests, oh, you know, young people, they're going to do okay. older people, vulnerable people, we can protect them. and we can get our society back. well, that is such a failure and fallacy. that's about surrendering. it's about waving the white flag. and here's a number that's just stunning. if we were to do that, if we were to pursue the policy that dr. atlas, although he claims he's not suggesting it, is clearly suggesting, and allow the virus to spread among young people. covid would have killed more people, in about a year, more americans in about a year, than all of the wars of the 20th century killed. now, it's just common sense.

the way to protect the vulnerable is to have fewer infections, not more infections. and there's no way one out of five people in this country is over the age of 65. about half of adults have an underlying condition that increases their risk of covid. and young people, who may be, otherwise, healthy, can get very sick and even die from this infection. and we don't know what the long-term impact is going to be for some people who have lingering symptoms. so this idea that we should let it rip in young people, surrender to covid, is just, not only mistaken but, a deadly mistake. >> sanjay, this isn't even a medical question. but, you know, again, for the leader of the -- of the country, who likes to compare himself to winston churchill. you know, if churchill, while, you know, england was in the darkest days of world war ii. and, you know, getting bombed. had just said, you know what, i know we're all tired of this. we're just tired of it. let's -- tired of the people

reporting this on the news. we're tired of this. let's just -- let's just, you know, give up to it. i mean, it's -- again, it is unconscionable. and i -- i don't know. i don't even have a question. i just think it's -- i just am stunned that we are in this situation. that you, who have been talking about this, round the clock, since january -- february -- january-february, we're still talking about the exact same things, every friggin night. it's unconscionable. >> right. it is. i think it's still important to talk about. i mean, i think that's why we do it. i think there are people, i like to think, that are still going to listen to this. tom frieden presented this model of boxing in the virus, a while ago. you know, tony fauci talks about five things that we could do, that is all within our power that we could do. we could bend this curve downward. and it's not -- it's before a

vaccine even needs to be there. you know, just wearing the mask what you go outside. socially distancing. avoiding crowded, indoor places and large crowds. and wash your hands. i mean, you know, there's no need for panic. but if you present a problem, you've got to, also, present a plan. which -- which is there. people just did not adhere to it. this is the patient who is sick and -- and, despite the fact that they did not listen to the treatment, is now pissed off at the doctor because they're still getting sick. they didn't do what was supposed to be done, and now they're upset about it. so we could still, you know, turn this into a different direction. but i can't -- you know, it is -- it is really frustrating. >> yeah. >> in october. >> our gary tuchman was at a trump rally, the other day. and asked somebody who is not wearing a mask and said she doesn't believe in masks. he asked her if the president said you should wear a mask. she, instantly, without him even finishing the question said, oh, i'd wear a mask. it would be that easy for this president to save tens of

thousands of lives. to raise the number of people in this country wearing a mask. dr. frieden, i appreciate it. dr. gupta, sanjay, thank you very much. next, more on the breaking news from the supreme court that jim acosta mentioned, involving the swing state of pennsylvania. more, as well, on the debate commission's decision just announced on microphones and interruptions. and later, just days after the alleged plot to kidnap michigan's governor, the president is basking in calls from his supporters to lock her up. we will talk about it with michigan's attorney general. before we talk about tax-smart investing, what's new? -well, audrey's expecting... -twins! grandparents! we want to put money aside for them, so...change in plans. alright, let's see what we can adjust. ♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. okay. mom, are you painting again? you could sell these. lemme guess, change in plans? at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan.

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top. there is breaking news on two fronts. a major ruling on which ballots count perhaps in the decisive state, pennsylvania. also, how the next debate will look and sound. first, pennsylvania, pamela brown has the latest details on that. so what wiare we learning? >> it could really have a big impact on the election because new we a now we are learning from the supreme court ruling mail-in ballots can be accepted in the crucial battleground state of pennsylvania up to three days after the election, even if the postmark is not legible. this is a huge win for democrats and a huge loss for republicans, bottom line. and, what is so fascinating also about this ruling is chief justice robert sided with the liberals on this. it was 4-4. what this means, practically, is that thousands of pennsylvanians will now have their votes count

in this election. otherwise, their ballots may have been received after election day, which would have meant it would have been thrown out if not for this final ruling from the supreme court that says, no, these mail-in ballots can be received up to three days after the election. even if the postmark isn't legible. of course, this is all because of coronavirus and changes that democrats have pushed for. republicans have argued, anderson, that ballots should not be accepted after election day. especially, if you can't tell postmark. that this could cause chaos. and could cause fraud. it could invite people to try to vote after election day. but clearly, the high court, in this matter, decided that was not the case. that pennsylvania will now accept these ballots after election day. and again, this a state that donald trump won by a very narrow margin in 2016. it is a very important state for both of these candidates in this year's election. >> and what could it mean for other preelection challenges? >> well, it certainly sets the tone. look, we are just a couple weeks out from election day. and there are still these

ongoing challenges. one, in particular, is in wisconsin. but this is the -- the other way in wisconsin, where you had the democrats appealing to the supreme court because a lower court ruled that the ballots should not be accepted after election day. and so, we're still waiting for the high court to rule on that. and don't expect it. don't expect the high court's ruling on that to be just like this. there's something very distinct about that and, that is, that justices have signalled they don't want to meddle too much this close to the election and changing the rules. so in pennsylvania, again, this is a lower-court's decision, that is being upheld with chief justice roberts siding with the liberals. so, wisconsin, it will be interesting to see how they rule on that. anderson. >> pamela brown, thanks so much. more now on the breaking news of the trump-biden debate. the commission on debates has a plan to prevent interruptions at least for part of the debate. cnn's brian stelter joins us now with the details. >> during the two-minute period, anderson, where each candidate is asked a question.

the microphone for the other candidate will be cut off. this is a direct result of president trump stepping on joe biden during the first debate. cutting him off repeatedly. and, to a lesser extent, biden did a little bit of that as well. but it was really trump trying to railroad the debate last month. now, in this debate, biden will be able to speak freely. no interruptions from trump and vice versa. however, the rest of the debate, anderson, it will be up to moderator kristen welker to maintain order. what they have done here is a halfway measure. halfway between what the biden camp might have wanted and the trump camp might have wanted. by the way, the trump campaign is railing against moderator kristen welker. they are complaining against topic selection. and now, there's this new rule. but if president trump wants to attack the debate commission and threaten not to show up, well, here's another reason to. >> and just in terms -- i mean, just because they mute the microphones. if the president is speaking, i don't know how, you know, directional these mics are.

but you would still be able to hear the president trying to interrupt. >> yeah. that's right. you know that, as a former moderator. in these events, you will be able to hear the candidates talking to each other, interrupting each other, even if viewers at home are not able to hear all of it. so we will see if the president goes in and tries that tactic again, against biden. biden, of course, off the campaign trail this week. we assume he is getting ready for the debate. but it's notable the kmigcommis is doing anything at all. this is an old-fashioned commission. it's a bipartisan commission. it seems, in some ways, a very stale commission that's note keeping up with the times. >> brian stelter, appreciate it. thanks very much. perspective now from cnn political director, david ch chalian. and author of election meltdown, dirty tricks, distrust, and the threat to american democracy. david, with pennsylvania being such a critical state in

deciding the election, how important a win for democrats is this? >> it's a big win for democrats because across the country in these battleground states, they have been looking to extend receipt deadlines, when the ballots can still be received and counted. given the fact we are in the midst of a pandemic. and so many more americans are going to be voting by mail than have before. but, anderson, the -- the real, critical, sort of, effect that i think this is going to have is that everyone is going to need to be really patient on election night. this is a critical state. we know that it can determine who gets to 270. and now, you are dealing with a state that has very little history of absentee, vote by mail. it's usually, all, sort of election day, in-person voting. they are going to have enormous amount of mail to count. and now, they are going to have the ability to get that counting down for flthree days following election day. we know election-day voters are

more inclined to support trump and the republicans. so when the returns come in of election day vote on election night, pennsylvania could look very favorable for trump. but we don't know that's the reality until all these absentee votes are counted, which now has an extended deadline to do so. and that's when you will start to see this blue shift in a state like pennsylvania that, again, could determine the outcome. >> richard, i mean, it's a loss for republicans who have been pushing for ballots arriving after election day to be counted. does it -- does it impact republicans? i mean, how might it impact how republicans try litigating after election day? >> well, i mean, the big news here is that the court split 4-4. and by the time we get to election day, there is a very good chance we are going to have a ninth justice on the court. justice barrett. and if she acts as a conservative justice along with alito, gor susuch, and thomas. as we saw here, she could end up siding with the republicans and,

you know, this could come in like a bush versus gore 2.0 kind of situation. >> dana, it's not clear, though, what impact, if any, this may have in other states who are facing these same kind of issues. >> that's a great question. i don't think we know that this has a specific impact. oftentimes, when the supreme court rules on something, it has a -- you know, effect, across the board. and it doesn't seem to be the case here. david mentioned that, in pennsylvania, though, they tonight hadon't have a lot of history with mail-in ballots. this is the first time that -- that, you know, mail-in ballots have been allowed across the board, not just for absentee voting. and it is a brand-new situation. they had a little bit of a test drive during the primary season, in some local elections. but, by and large, it is new. which is, you know, part of the reason it seems why they're being given some leeway. >> yeah.

>> it's another reason, though, anderson, i can tell you i have been talking to republicans a obje about this today. they are banging their heads against the wall because if the president had been encouraging and not discouraging mail-in voting, this could be helpful to the president as much as it is, potentially, to democrats. >> also, i imagine they are banging their heads against the wall because, one again, john roberts. he's a conservative justice. he was appointed by president george w. bush. >> yes. and donald trump, david chalian, and i were in the elevator together. and i will quote you, david. donald trump's head is probably exploding right now over john roberts because, again and again and again, he -- he, john roberts, has been a decisive and deciding vote in rulings that have gone straight at donald trump's desires, both in policy and in politics, now. and, you know, it is part of the reason why, you know, he has been so aggressive, along with mitch mcconnell, in completely filling up the federal bench.

not just the supreme court, which we've seen. but across the board, on the district level and the appellate level. >> and, richard, as you said. it's a 4-4 decision. i mean, it does show how critical amy coney barrett's vote will be. >> yeah. and, you know, if we think about it. it took the court 13 days and nobody issued an opinion. so what was going on behind the scenes is probably roberts was struggling, mightily, to find some common ground or some way they could decide this, without dividing this way. but it'd be really tough if your first vote on the supreme court is in favor of the president, who says he was rushing to put you on the court to help decide the election. that would be a very tough position for judge barrett to be in and i certainly hope we don't get to that point, come november 4th. >> david chalian, i mean, the -- the debate commission, you know, releasing this new rule for the debate on thursday. they're going to mute the candidates' microphone, just during the opening, two-minute answer to each topic question. i mean, they're not -- you know,

they may mute one of the candidate's mics. but the audience can still hear the other candidate if they choose to interrupt. and if it's the president trying to, sort of, throw joe biden, you know, off his train of thought. whether his mic is on or not, it has the same impact. >> yeah. i mean, he could, also, decide to walk over to his or whatever donald trump wants to do to create chaos. but here is the problem, anderson. you have this -- i know the commission's not saying it's an actual rule change but more of a way to enforce the rules so that those two minutes can be uninterrupted, as both campaigns agreed to. but you are right to note there is no foolproof way of doing this. donald trump, if he wants to have a performance like the first debate, he can do so. i don't think an adviser in his team would advise him to do so because it was a disaster.

it doesn't work with the voters. it doesn't accomplish any of his political goals. so i don't know if we'll see him recreate that kind of chaos because it really didn't help him at all. but i don't think this one adjustment from the commission on presidential debates is going to prevent that from happening if donald trump sort of decides to light himself on fire again. >> dana, do you see the president abiding by the rules, this time? >> no. it's very hard to see him abiding by the rules. i will say that my reporting is that he's certainly gotten -- maybe i shouldn't say gotten the message -- he's heard the message, loud and clear, about how bad his debate performance was, certainly by now. in the sort of 24 to 48 hours afterwards, he was calling friends saying didn't i do great? by now, you know, the message has certainly gotten to him. it's always an open question, as we all know, from, you know, being on this roller coaster ride for five years. whether or not he's going to take that to heart, and actually

implement the changes that he is being told he must make, in order to not have a debacle like two weeks ago. >> david, do you think it's possible that the -- the debate might not happen? i mean, you know, there are some claiming, you know, the trump campaign wrote a letter to the debate commission. they're unhappy about the topics as well. >> yeah. again, i think this is more about sort of pre-debate distraction. we've seen the trump campaign, they did this in advance of the first debate. and the vice presidential debate. sort of, create a story about the debates going in. but it seems hard if you are in donald trump's position, anderson, which is you are the underdog in this race for re-election, to turn down the last opportunity to be in front of tens of millions of americans, for free, at a concentrated time. to try and actually sell your message, at the end here. and get to 270 electoral veotes. that just seems something i -- i would be very surprised if donald trump walked away from that opportunity. >> yeah. dana, we touched on this earlier. but attacking fauci. if the goal is to get to 270

electoral votes, does that -- does this help? >> no. absolutely not. anderson, i have been working the phones, today, talking to several people who are very familiar with the president. with the data behind what he is trying to do. with how he operates. and to a person -- these are people who want him to be re-elected. nobody said this is a great idea. they're all shaking their heads. they're all completely -- i wouldn't say that they are surprised. but they are very frustrated because they understand that only -- not even maybe his whole base. the smallest percentage of his base. maybe, those who go to his rallies and boo at the name fauci and maybe encourage the president to talk badly about him. that's about it. the reason the president did what he did, today, is because it is he is upset that fauci said what he said on "60

minutes." which is the white house had a superspreader event. and because, as we have seen so many times before, the president doesn't like that fauci gets good press. and he can't stand it. and so, he got -- got out in front with a message that is dominating, today, and is not a message that is a winning one for him, two weeks from tomorrow. >> david, president trump, also, you know, what he framed as an attack, said biden would, quote, listen to the scientists. and he said that as though it was a disparaging thing. >> yeah. i actually think it can turn into a biden campaign ad. i mean, biden, exactly right. he says every day he is going to listen to the scientists. this is what's so remarkable about what the president did. it is exactly this -- these two things. the dismissing of the science and the personal insult. this is the thing that has turned away independent, suburban women, seniors, all the groups that he actually needs to take a little bit of slice back from.

to get to 270 electoral votes. it is this precise strategy, tactic, that drives them away and doesn't bring them back. and it makes his job all that much harder to get re-elected. >> dana, what are you hearing, just internally, about the trump campaign? i mean, obviously, you know, they are projecting confidence, publicly. >> they are. and internally, they're worried. i mean, some people i talk to argue that some of the numbers that they are seeing, internally, are not as bad as what we are seeing publicly. but there is, also, a good reason for them to be arguing that because the president doesn't want to hear and see some of the stories that have been out there, over the weekend and even today, about how depressed and, you know, people are feeling very bad inside the campaign and at the republican national committee. and the fact is it that there is infighting, there is disagreement, at the top. and we all know, from covering campaigns, you don't hear a lot about that from people who feel confident that they're going to

win. the -- the sort of blame game and the finger pointing, often, starts to happen when people think that they have a very good chance of not winning. >> yeah. although, i seem to remember some finger pointing and blame from the trump campaign in 2016. >> true. >> shortly before the election results were coming in. >> you are right. >> fair point. >> david chalian, dana bash, richard, thanks so much. about pennsylvania. president obama will be campaigning there wednesday, where he made his argument for hillary clinton four years ago. >> i know it's been a long campaign. there's been a lot of noise and a lot of distraction. at times, it's felt more like a reality show. or even a parody. but tomorrow, tomorrow, philadelphia, the choice you face when you step into that voting booth could not be clearer, and could not be more serious.

on the economy, donald trump is uniquely unqualified to be our chief executive. that's why most ceos and economists don't support him. he would trigger a reckless trade war that cost jobs. strip 20 million americans of their health insurance. roll back the new rules designed to check wall street recklessness, and protect consumers. and would roll back the regulations we put in place to preserve this planet for our kids. on foreign policy, donald trump is temperamentally unfit to be commander in chief. >> former obama senior adviser, valerie jarrett, was in philadelphia when he said that. she is author of finding my voice, when the perfect plan crumbles, adventure begins. she joins me now. first of all, this debate commission rule change, what do you make of them muting the other candidate's microphone during these two minutes, where they're supposed both have to two minutes, uninterrupted? will that work? >> well, first of all, good evening, anderson. well, what else are they

supposed to do? when president trump had a complete disregard for the rules that he and his campaign had agreed to, ahead of time. so it's unfortunate that they have to do this. but i think what the american people want is to be able to hear directly from the candidates, unfiltered by the other candidate and interrupting. so, i support the rule change. >> and your reaction to the supreme court ruling on pennsylvania ballots, particularly as president obama tries to, you know, shore up joe biden's support there this week? >> well, i think it was obviously the right ruling. the goal is to try to make sure that every american who wants to participate in our election can do so. and if the ballots are in before the deadline, they should be able to do so. and in this case, they're saying there is a grace period because we know that the postal service hasn't taken the necessary steps to accommodate the great influx of ballots coming in. and i'm -- i'm just smiling because having listened to the video you just played of president obama. someone in the crowd shouted out, that's right. well, you know what?

everything he said in his remarks four years ago has proven to be true. and i think, this time, the american people are onto president trump and will vote accordingly. which is why we're seeing such large numbers of people showing up for the early vote. >> by the way, i just in listening to that. funny you mentioned the guy shouting that's right. i could not listen to anything else but that guy. i wonder if at the time, president obama was like who is this guy? i mean, i was like, wow, all right. you know, just let the president speak. >> it felt like church. and it felt like president obama nailed it. he -- everything that he said turned out to be true. and -- and now, the american people have a second opportunity to vote, not on the aspirations of a candidate but, the track record of a president. >> we heard from president mrs. obama obviously during the democratic convention. very stark, personal terms. how do you think the froormer president tends to walk that line on wednesday? clearly, going to make it about joe biden and the future.

there is obviously his legacy as well. the president has called for his indictment, among other things, which adds a whole nother layer to this. >> well, i think what president obama is laser-like focused on is making an affirmative case for why his vice president, whoed twho he had the opportunity to work with every single day for eight years, is the best person to become the next president of the united states. and in so doing, he will make that case strongly based on joe biden's competency, his track record, his experience, his temperament, and his empathy. all of which, president obama saw up close. not just on good days but on really hard days. he saw how joe focused, singularly, on the american people and never on himself. but, anderson, it's also an opportunity to make a pretty stark contrast with president trump. who is the opposite of joe biden. and i think president obama's obviously immensely popular, not just within the democratic party but, all across our country. and he is the perfect person to

have out there on the campaign trail as we enter into the final two weeks of the election. >> if president obama wins, what happens? i mean -- >> if president obama wins? >> i mean, excuse me. excuse me. if president trump wins, what do the next four years look like? >> honestly, i just can't imagine. you know, every day, i think we've reached a new low. and how will we go any lower? i don't know that our country is recognizable, both domestically, as polarized as this president has tried to make us. and internationally, where we are no longer the envy of the world. no longer that beacon of hope. but people around the world feel sorry for us. they're confused. and we have given up the important leadership role that took decades and decades and generations to achieve. so, it is the most important election of our lifetime. and i think the american people understand that, which is why you've seen such, you know, so many people who have turned out already. and people are making plans to vote. and it is a conversation, everywhere you go.

are you going to vote? how are you going to do it safely in the middle of a -- of a pandemic? given that the trump administration and many of the secretaries of state have not taken the necessary steps to do this, in a way that avoids people having to stand in long lines, for 12 hours. how could that happen in america? how are we not better prepared than this? but what gives me hope is the resilience and the grit of people who showed up, including my 91-year-old mother, who went to early vote in chicago on saturday. she stood in line for a half an hour. she got there right when the polls opened. and she is really proud to have participated. and that's the case, all around this country. >> valerie jarrett, i preeshappe your time. thank you so much. >> you're welcome. thank you, anderson. >> the trump campaign issued a statement saying they will, in fact, be at the debate. cnn coverage begins thursday night, 7:00 p.m., eastern time. >> just ahead tonight. what michigan's governor calls dangerous rhetoric from the president in regard to the alleged kidnapping plot

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cnn has obtained new video prosecutors say they plan to use against 60 individuals accused of plotting the kidnapping of michigan's governor. two are training with weapons as they jump out of a vehicle and start firing high powered rifles. the video was provided to cnn affiliate by the u.s. attorney's office. text messages were also revealed. one read, quote, have one person go to her house, knock on the door and when she answers it, just cap her, end quote. this weekend at a rally in michigan, no less, the president was again criticizing governor whitmer over the state's response to the coronavirus.

the crowd started chanting "lock her up," just as they did against hillary clinton in 2016. the president replied, lock them all up. this was the governor's response. >> it falls on deaf ears every time. they haven't done a darn thing. and, in fact, ten days after a plot to kidnap, to put me on trial and then to murder me, ten days later, they're back in michigan using the same rhetoric i have been asking them to turn the heat down. it is dangerous. >> joining us now is the michigan attorney general. thank you for being with us. i'm wondering what your reaction is to the president continuing to attack governor whitmer and the attorney general of the united states not even being out front and center about the plot against her. >> well, like many of the things that donald trump says, i find it to be vile and hideous and repugnant and a stain on our nation.

but you know, it's funny. i couldn't help but look back to 2008 and, you know, make the contrast to what john mccain used to do on the campaign trail when someone would denigrate his opponent, barack obama, and he would defend him and say, no, no, he's a good and kind and decent man, just someone who i happen to have fundamental differences with on policy issues. but that's not this president. even after we know there is a serious plot to kidnap and to execute our governor, he continues to say the same things and to egg people on and to incite violence. and it's very disturbing, and it's not -- it's not what we should have in terms of leadership in this country. >> i want to play something that the president's daughter-in-law who is amazingly a trump surrogate, told my colleague jake tapper yesterday in response to the president going

after governor whitmer this weekend. >> he wasn't doing anything i don't think to provoke people to threaten this woman at all. he was having fun at a trump rally. the president was at a rally. it's a fun, light atmosphere. of course he wasn't encouraging people to threaten this woman. that's ridiculous. >> i mean, the idea that he's not encouraging people to -- i mean, he encouraged people to liberate michigan, just like liberate virginia and some of these folks did talk about the governor of virginia, as well. and he -- you know, when folks showed up at the state house in michigan with rifles yelling at politicians and yelling at law enforcement and screaming in their faces, the president was talking about, you know, fine people showing up and, you know, good people, patriotic people. i mean, the idea that he's not encouraging this sort of stuff, the crowd was chanting "lock her up." that doesn't sound like a fun, light atmosphere. >> yeah. i'm not exactly sure what's fun

and lighthearted about calling for the execution of a sitting governor. but i wasn't at the event, so may be hard to say. i just -- you know, this is a continuation of what we've seen from this president. and what we have come to know and what we have come to learn is what we suspected all along is that it's dangerous and it does encourage bad behavior and dangerous behavior. and there are those that hear these mocking words utilized by our commander in chief and then think it's okay to act on them. and what more can you say? you mentioned the fact that the united states attorney general has yet to talk at all about this plot. in fact, if you remember when bill barr testified under oath before the house judiciary committee, he claimed to not know anything about any threats to governor whitmer. yet, his own fbi was at the time investigating a plot to kill her. so, you know, it's really unfortunate, because once we've

lost our sense of justice in america, it's hard to know what we have left. and that's why it is so important that we regain that trust in our judicial system, in our executive and in people that we can have faith in actually care about protecting people in this country instead of inciting violence against our political enemies. >> it is one of the most important foundations of a -- of a functioning democracy, is that there is a rule of law and that it's not -- it is impervious to politics, that it is not something that the ruler of the country can just put their thumb on and have their attorney general, you know, go after one group and ignore other lawbreakers. >> well, i will say that, you know, we had quite a scandal with our last governor, and you probably remember the flint

water crisis, which remains under investigation by my office. and even though there were a lot of people that were very upset with governor snyder during the course of that event and president obama came to michigan many times and visited flint, but i don't remember him saying anything to incite acts of violence against our sitting governor then. but we have quite a different set of circumstances now, don't we? >> the president continues to undermine mail-in voting, continues to claim widespread fraud, which there is not. he has shown no evidence of widespread fraud at all, because there isn't any. he is going after you as well in this, saying that you and governor whitmer are partisan, trying to get to him. what message do you have for the president? more importantly, what message do you have to michigan voters tonight when it comes to voting in your state? >> well, what i would say is that the governor and myself and the secretary of state in michigan are doing everything we can to protect the vote. and yes, of course, we want to make sure that all eligible voters know how to vote, when to vote, where to vote and have the opportunity to vote.

but when these votes are tabulated, as they will be by 1,600 local clerks all over the state, of different parties, that it will be done fairly and it will be done accurately. and whoever receives the most votes, that person will be the winner, eer irrespective of who that candidate is and that we will protect the vote on michigan. >> attorney general, thank you so much. before we end the program, i want to note something president trump resurrected on the campaign trail this weekend. the so-called war on christmas. his election supposedly won it. now he says that hard fought battle is in jeopardy if joe biden wins. >> if he comes in, carson city will become a ghost town, and the christmas season will be canceled. look, remember, i said we're going to bring back christmas, right, the name? remember we brought it back? remember? >> christmas season will be

canceled. wow. that's where we are in our politics. it won't. don't worry, kids. it's a ludicrous statement. the only reason we're showing it to you is to provide what is known as the setup, one of the most glorious examples of hypocrisy we have seen in this white house. here's first lady melania trump in a secret recorded conversation with a friend back in 2018. >> they say i'm complacent, i'm the same like him, i support him. i don't say enough. i don't do enough. there i am, i put the -- i'm working like a -- working my ass off for that christmas stuff, who gives a [ bleep ] about christmas stuff and decoration, but i need to do it, right? >> perhaps both trumps should heed the words of their own christmas mes message last year. together we must respect traits that exemplify the teachings of christ. the news continues. let's hand it over to