may they less in peace. and may their memories be a blessing. thank you very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." i'll be back one hour from now. cnn's special coverage of the final presidential debate between president trump and former vice president biden begins right now. ♪ >> we are awaiting a high stakes debate rematch tonight between president donald trump and former vice president joe biden. they are going head to head. for the last time before this election, which is now just 12 days away. it is debate night in america, and this is a special edition of "outfront." i'm erin burnett. now, what we are all about to see e collectively in this couny is another unprecedented twist in the history of modern presidential debates.

when this final round of 2020 begins at belmont university, which is in nashville, tennessee, there's a new rule in place to prevent this debate from going off the rails like the first one did. this time, each candidate's microphone will be muted when his opponent gives his initial answer. and a lot has happened since we saw them clash on stage. the second debate was canceled, and we have seen this resurgence in coronavirus across the country. and we're joined by anderson cooper, and anderson, that really is the bottom line here. when you look at so many crucial states in this country, the pandemic continues to be front and center. >> yeah. both men very different approaches. the white house says that president trump tested negative for covid-19 a few hours ago, the former vice president tested negative, as well. but they will stay socially

distanced. viewers will see the president to the left with 12 feet between him and joe biden, who will be positioned to the right. dividers had been installed for additional protection. they were removed, however, just a little while ago. the debate commission said both campaigns agreed to take them down after they both tested negative. tonight's moderator kristen welker will sit more than 16 feet away. turning to the debate format, president trump will get the first question tonight that's when we'll see how the new microphone rule works. at the start of every new topic, each candidate will get two minutes of uninterrupted time to answer while the opponent's microphone is muted. these are the topics -- fighting covid-19, american families and race in america, as well as climate change, national security and leadership. we're covering this event as only cnn can. cnn's gary tuchman is with undivided voters in north

carolina who will be watching the debate. and david chalian will have the first glimpse of who won the debate. >> so much ahead. i want to begin with our correspondents who are covering the candidates and this crucial debate. so first, to jim acosta in the debate hall. jim, what are you learning right now? >> reporter: well, anderson and erin, as we were seeing earlier today, the debate commission was making some arrangements to protect these two candidates from the coronavirus, stating they'll be distanced 12 feet apart and having plexiglass dividers on the page for the debate. and we learned suddenly this afternoon, just a short while ago, that these dividers were removed after both campaigns, along with the debate commission, consulted with dr. anthony fauci. yes, dr. anthony fauci looms over everything in this pandemic, to determine those plexigla plexiglass dividers were not necessary, as president trump and former vice president joe biden tested negative for the coronavirus. the dividers were deemed not

necessary at this point. so just goes to show you how these things can change. details can change right up to the last minute of a debate. the other thing we want to mention, erin, is that inside the debate hall, you can take a look at some of the seating in the audience, and how some of those seats in the audience are right next to one another. they are jammed right next to one another. but in those seats we're starting to see what looked like markers for individual people to be seated. so they're not on top of one another. obviously, if everybody was sitting right next to one another, you could have the potential for spread of the coronavirus. but i should note, i have this wrist band on. everybody who comes into this hall has a wrist band on. that means you tested negative for the coronavirus. they have temperature checks to make sure you're not running a fever and so on. so taking lots of precautions to make sure this is a safe night for both candidates. but the headline this evening, and it's fascinating, those dividers were removed after

consulting with none other than dr. anthony fauci. erin? >> an important detail and joe biden has been putting his test results out every day. let's go now, so you do have some new information about -- we haven't seen joe biden in a few days. he has been in debate prep. >> reporter: that's right, erin. joe biden has spent the past three days off the campaign trail, gearing up for this debate. that included holding mock debates where they ran through scenario where the president could continue with interruptions, even if that's not heard by voters over the television. the former vice president is also expecting the president to attack his family, bringing up personal issues. and ultimately, that's a strategy that biden's advisers will backfire on president trump. i spoke to one of biden's allies who said he doesn't expect that biden will take the bait and try to turn the tables on the president and his family. but instead biden's advisers say the former vice president will keep his focus on american

families and the issues that are top of mind to them, including the coronavirus pandemic and the economy. and that push can be seen in the guests that biden is bringing tonight. tonight, he's invited small business owners from durham, north carolina impacted by the coronavirus pandemic. those are the voters biden is trying to speak to tonight. >> thank you. and now to jeff zeleny. jeff, you've been talking to your sources. this always has come down to who are they talking to, right? are they trying to win people over, motivate their base for turnout? so who are they targeting tonight? >> reporter: the audiences are key tonight. for all the campaigns focused on suburban women, which have been key in this election. both campaigns are also focusing on college educated men. and this is why. talking to advisers from both campaigns, i'm told that president trump tonight is going to try and make the case that joe biden and the democratic

party will raise your taxes. what he will not say most likely is that will only take effect for households making more than $400,000. but joe biden also focusing on college educated men. they believe that some of those men whose wives have already turned against the president are still up in the air here. i'm told the former vice president will drive home the point that his tax plan would only raise taxes for, again, households making over $400,000. they believe college educated men in the suburbs as well are key in the closing days of this campaign. the president, of course, trying to slow the erosion that they have seen among those suburban women. biden, of course, trying to get them. sko all the focus on suburban women, they are key tonight. the men are also an audience. erin? >> thank you very much. and it just shows how they're trying to slice and dice this now to the small as you can make a group so crucial for the win here. let me just ask you, michael

smerconish. how much -- how much here is at stake for president trump? he has a big night. he has to make up for the last debate, right? totally different performance. everyone has told him he has to put in a different performance. is he going to be able to do sn it? >> everything is at stake. tonight requires no hype. some of us have been at this more than a year, getting ready for a night like tonight. and what's truly unprecedented, erin, ais that 40 million americans have already voted. there couldn't be more of a definition of crunchtime for the president. here is how he's losing. he's losing because hereto fore, this has been a referendum election. and he is losing a referendum on donald trump. he needs it to be a choice election, and in order for that to happen tonight, he needs to draw some difference between himself and vice president biden. >> yeah. and to do that, he's got to have a vision for the country,

something he hasn't been able to articulate so far. you flashback to 2016. he did have a vision, and it connected with a wide swath of voters, particularly white voters of all socioeconomic classes. so he has to figure out a way to do that. focus, focus, focus in a way he hasn't been able to and try to turn this around. it's at the 11th hour, it's a 90-minute debate. and so far if you look at which is he behavior, he hasn't been able to pivot. i think for biden, play it safe. he puts it in a b plus performance, a b minus performance even, he'll probably do well. and i think mainly, he also has to do what trump has to do, which is to articulate a vision for the country, something he wasn't able to do last go around because of those interruptions. >> i think biden didn't have a great debate last time. donald trump had a much worse debate. donald trump interrupted him repeatedly, could not let the

subject be about anything other than himself. as having covered this president a long time, i have a hard time seeing a new version of president trump showing up on this stage. we did see in 2016, he was able in his third debate with hillary clinton, to effect a different -- we had using the word tone in this contest, but there was a different tone. he was able to make his points without talking over her, without constantly seeming too hostile. he's not been able to do that with biden. so does he walk on stage and basically lose his temper because he's frustrated that the polls show him behind? he seems to be up and down in his moods, and up and down on how he wants to go with this. >> and michael, they keep -- >> the issue, can he go on offense? can he go on offense without being offensive? and frankly, i don't know what kind of a debate joe biden had in the last debate, because president trump never let him speak. if president trump really believes that joe biden is not

up to the task, he thought to move aside and give him the space to get himself in trouble. >> the issue for him, is he going to be distracted by the shiny objects that he wants the media to also be distracted by, and that is hunter biden that. is the main point of this debate for president trump and the last couple of days of what he's been doing is to focus on hunter biden. put this into the main stream of american viewers. 80 million will be watching. that's what he will be distracted by. that's not great, because it doesn't go to his vision for the country. hunter biden is not running for president. >> and it's not what people care about. we're in the middle of a pandemic, a recession, in the middle of incident issues. circumstances that impact people much more than anything that the president is trying to do to muddy up the waters and drive joe biden's negatives up. this has not directly connected any of what he's talking about to joe biden himself. but the president prefers to talk about something other than the issue in front of him, which

is how he's going to take the country forward. and i do any he's going to be distracted talking about this. one other point on that front, in the last debate, when he started talking about hunter biden, he didn't really talk about business deals or issues of foreign interactions, he talked about hunter biden's drug addiction. that did not play well with a lot of people. many people in this country who either themselves or have a family member that suffered addiction, and that comes off incredibly koncondescending. stay with me as we count down to the debate in nashville. we'll look at where the candidates stand for the 270 electoral votes. and up to the minute numbers on early voting. more than 40 million people tonight shattering records. just over a year ago,

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we are back with our coverage of the final presidential debate of 2020. it is the candidate's last best chance to influence the race for 270 electoral votes. john king is at the magic wall with more. jop? >> anderson, you have to say advantage biden as we head into the final debate and the final ten days.

we right now have the electoral college outlook, 290 for joe biden. the deep blue solid biden. texas leaning red right now. 290 for joe biden, 163 for the president. everyone knows it takes 270 to win. if joe biden comes out of this debate and nothing changes, he's the next president of the united states. what's different on this map? number one, pennsylvania, michigan, and wisconsin. the three states that made president trump president. the blue wall he cracked and made red, we have them for joe biden. all these carried by president trump last time. so the map is very different. the president is on defense. of course, he was losing heading into the last debate last time. what if the president turns in a strong debate tonight and making the case his advisers hope, joe biden will raise your taxes. if the president comes out of this debate strong tonight, the biden campaign might go into protect mode. let's say the president has a

strong debate and people come out thinking you know what? iowa is going to stay republican, ohio, north carolina, georgia, florida, if they start trending the president's way, then biden goes into protect mode, which is protect wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania. as you can imagine a scenario even if the president comes out strong tonight that he would get arizona back as well. it's trending toward the democrats but you could see this scenario play out. if all that happened, you would have 279-259. the president would be back in play, and it would come down to these big industrial battlegrounds or some combination if the president could get nevada or new hampshire. this is where the fight would be, if he can come out strong tonight and flip the toss-up states. joe biden is in command of this race. you see that when you look, number one, at a number of things. let's look at the battleground states. imagine if joe biden has a strong debate tonight, and

knowledge chan nothing changes. if nothing changes, joe biden is ahead in these states, a little bit in arizona, maybe a tiny bit in iowa, call that in georgia a tie. but at least joe biden is in play. florida, slight advantage biden right now. president trump can't win without florida. look at all the menu options joe biden has to get not only to 270, maybe to even 300. the president has to change this and change it dramatically. you look at this right now, tv ad spending. the biden campaign has more money. a lot of super pac money coming in, but even there the democrats have an advantage. this is just the biden campaign for two weeks. $52 million in tv ad spending. florida, pennsylvania, look at that, texas is in the top five for joe biden, making a play to bring texas his way. the president spending $0 milli -- spending $20 million less. what's common here? the president trying to get back all states he won last time.

so when you look at the map right now into this debate, you have to say, advantage biden. democrats, of course, haunted by 2016. they know the president was losing then. but this is a different map, anderson, without a doubt especially wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. unless the president can have a strong economic debate tonight, start to bring those back his way, you have to say heading in, it's advantage biden. biden's biggest goal tonight, keep things just the way they are. president trump has an opportunity to reset his campaign tonight. it's not clear if he will change his strategy after his performance in the first debate. abby, there are new rules tonight, but the animosity we saw in the first debate is still there. >> reporter: and the stakes are higher tonight with less than two weeks before the election. after the last debate, voters were turned off by a combination of interruptions and biting personal attacks. but with president trump teeing off new attacks on joe biden's family, it's very possible we could see something very similar

tonight. >> i want to make sure -- >> mr. president, can you let him finish? >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> reporter: the first face-off between president trump and former vice president joe biden was a slugfest. >> would you shut up, man? >> reporter: a 90-minute grudge match with dozens of moments like this. >> you should go out and vote. you're in voting now. vote and let your senators know -- >> are you going to pack the court? there's a lot of -- radical left -- listen, who is on your list, joe? who is -- >> gentlemen, this -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> they can, in fact, take care of it if he would stay out of the way. >> oh, really? oh, really? >> reporter: and a moderator struggling to keep it under control. >> you have never in these four years, come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare. >> of course i have.

we got rid of the individual mandate -- excuse me, i got rid of the individual mandate. h1n1, you were a disaster. your own -- >> 14,000 people died, not 200,000. [ overlapping speakers ] >> we didn't shut down the economy. >> he made a statement about the military. first of all, i guess i'm debating you, not him. but i'm not surprised. >> reporter: tonight, they will meet again on the debate stage, with new rules designed to keep order. but no mute button is likely to stop these kinds of personal attacks. >> you were last in your class. >> reporter: president trump talking about his late son with this attack. >> are you talking about hunter? >> i'm talking about beau biden.

>> reporter: biden resorting to language unheard of on a presidential debate stage. >> do you have any idea what this clown is doing? >> reporter: historically vicious debate in the middle of a pandemic, and the coronavirus may have already been hanging in the air. >> he could be speaking 200 feet away from me. and he shows up with the biggest mask i've ever seen. >> reporter: two days later president trump and melania trump testing positive. president trump spending days in the hospital. the debate commission now scrambling to change course on tone and health precautions. first, plans to concert the second debate to a virtual format were scrapped after president trump objected. now for tonight's debate, a mute button. and this time anyone not wearing a mask inside the hall will be ejected. for president trump, last month's debate went over like a led balloon with some voters. >> childish.

>> embarrassing. >> train wreck. >> president trump clearly has control issues, and he couldn't stop his anger. >> reporter: tonight, a final chance for the two candidates to make an impression. >> there's an opportunity here for each today to make a closing statement. it's going to be hard because of all of the angry name calling going on, and how it will descend to such a low road. it is the last time you'll get millions of people watching and hearing your act. so they still matter. >> reporter: the changes announced by the debate commission this two-minute period where one candidate will be muted is designed to make this debate more substantive so people can hear what is going on. with millions voting now and millions tuning in, it will really matter whether or not they're able to get something out of it. of course, it will be up to biden and president trump to truly set the tone tonight. >> abby, thank you very much. let's go to our team who are

standing by. david, it seems like both men have something that they could try to improve upon from the last debate, simply president trump. i mean, if he looks at all the focus groups and reaction to the last debate, he would try to be less aggressive. and vice president biden was thrown off by the president interrupting and losing his train of thought when the president would interrupt. >> yeah, exactly. if the president was sitting down and reading focus groups, that's what he would do. the question is, does he do that? he does have to change the trajectory of this race in this debate. he did it last time, but he sent it in the wrong trajectory with his behavior. the question is, can he control that here? for joe biden, he can't chase the rabbit down the hole. he can't let president trump throw him off his game. he scored, when he was talking to america in that debate. when he turned to the camera and talked to people about their

lives and problems and his response to them, he did very, very well. when he got thrown off, he did not. i'm sure that's a lot of what they've been working on in the last few days. >> i think the question that i really have here is about the president's behavior. because if you look of the last few days, what is the president talking about? he's pad at the format. he's mad at the moderator. he's mad at "60 minutes" and leslie stall. he's mad at everything. if he walks into that debate halt and he's still angry, you're going to see the same president trump. and i've spent four years listening to people say, president trump is going to pivot. he's going to be different. he is not going to be different. maybe he'll hold it in for the first answer, maybe even the second answer. but if i were a wagering person, i would put a lot of money on the fact that ' he's not going go 90 minutes without reverting to form. >> van, they are muting mics.

that doesn't mean the candidate is going to be muted. >> the moderator is going to be the most envied person in america, to have the power to mute president trump for an hour and a half. that is a good thing. listen, this is a big deal. those of us that are in the details of it, the reality -- this is the biggest audience they have. the next time they have a big audience, one is going to be giving a concession speech. the other is going to be giving a victory speech. that's how close we are to the end of this thing. and tonight, you've got to get your base shored up and fired up. and working moms need a champion tonight. you're talking people in the real world. they've got kids that can't go to school, can't go to day care, they can't go to work. they're getting crushed. president trump has said he has no regrets looking back. and no health care plan looking forward. which means you've got a great opportunity, if you're biden, to say i have an answer for you.

the trick for biden is just not to sound like captain quarantine, because he's got to look like somebody who wants to open the economy up but do it safely and responsibly, whereas president trump wants to open it up irresponsibly. if biden focuses on people hurting, he will have a great night. >> senator? >> so what i think is going to happen, anderson, if you remember the last debate, we were together and i said that president trump would come out and be very aggressive. i don't think he's going to do that this time. if you look at his comment where he was saying i'm going to win this race and i wouldn't have said that three weeks ago. the reason he wouldn't have said that three weeks ago, it was after the debate and he saw that he cratered. you talk to people in the swing states and they say the race got away from me three weeks ago. but it is coming back. >> how? >> and i think there is -- there is enthusiasm, i can tell you, i talk to conservatives. in's a lot of enthusiasm. races are closing. from statehouse, state senate,

congress in a lot of these swing states. and there's a momentum out there that president trump feels. he may be angry, i get that. but i'm telling you, he thinks he is on -- the momentum is on his side. >> senator, it would be great -- listen, if he would just be quiet and let biden talk, i think -- >> you're going to see more of that. >> it's a better strategy for president trump. in other words -- >> it is. >> president trump's worst enemy is trump. if he would just shut up and het biden talk, he could make his own point. he's a much better performer than biden. but the reality is, he's going to talk about hunter biden and stuff nobody talks about. >> that's a very key point in this, and this is up to the moderator. when they're going to bring up the foreign policy part. that's the time he's going to bring up joe biden selling his office to foreign folks. if she decides we're going to bring this up first, that's bad

for trump. he's going to level that charge when they talk about that subject. if she waits to the end, i think president trump may be benefited by that, by not going there, and sort of setting the phone. >> do you think he'll wait for that? >> i think he will. >> no, i don't think he will. >> i don't know. but let me tell you this, if i were joe biden, i would say go ahead and take the mute off, because i don't think president trump is helped by what he did in the last debate. the mute is maybe beneficial to him to keep him from being president trump. by the way, van, i was -- i'm relieved to hear that you think one of these candidates is going to give a concession speech. i'm not sure the president will ever give a concession speech. >> can i just say this. i think that the public would benefit, and we would all benefit from hearing some more on the issues tonight, which we didn't hear in the first debate, obviously. and for example, in the "60

minutes" interview, the president of the united states said that he hopes the supreme court overturns obamacare. well, i guarantee you that that is something that either we'll be asked about, or that joe biden is going to raise, and then the president will have to talk about his plan for health care in the middle of a pandemic for over 200,000 people have died. >> but there is no plan, and he's refused to talk about it. much more ahead on tonight's debate and an unanswered question about the coronavirus pandemic. we have newdy tail details abo president's recovery from covid-19, next.

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uber and lyft are like every big guy i've ever brought down. prop 22 doesn't "help" their drivers-- it denies them benefits. 22 doesn't help women. it actually weakens sexual harassment laws, which are meant to protect them. uber and lyft aren't even required to investigate sexual harassment claims. i agree with the la times: no on 22. uber and lyft want all the power. so, show them the real power is you. vote no on prop 22. but that's tough to do on a fixed income. i'd be hit with a tax penalty for moving to another county, so i'm voting 'yes' on prop 19. it limits property taxes

and lets seniors transfer their home's current tax base to another home that's closer to family or medical care. being closer to family is important to me. how about you? voting 'yes' on prop 19. it is debate night in america. and president trump will be taking the stage you see on your screen in about 90 minutes from now. as a recovering covid-19 patient. so i want to go back to jim acosta in the debate hall. jim, there are a lot of questions about the president's illness that could come up tonight, right? i mean, a lot of things that we have never been told, even now. what are you learning? >> reporter: that's right. and perhaps joe biden will ask some of those questions. we'll wait and see. in the meantime, one of the biggest developments heading into tonight's debate is that

these plexiglass dividers were moved after the debate commission consulted with dr. anthony fauci, who spoke with a physician associated with the debate commission. the dividers not deemed necessary because both tested negative for the coronavirus. but another example why this virus hangs over everything, even a debate, in our lives now. president trump landed in nashville for his final debate with joe biden, sounding more obsessed with his biggest election obstacle standing in his way of a second term, the coronavirus. >> all you hear is covid, covid, covid covid, covid, covid. >> reporter: there are constant reminders, white house officials say the president tested negative for the virus enroute to the debate hall. >> that pandemic is rounding the corner. the vaccine will end the pandemic. but it's ending any way. i look fine, don't i? >> reporter: cnn learned

president trump spoke with dr. anthony fauci during his recovery. advisers had hoped the president would use his battle as a campaign reset. but instead he's dug in, blaming fauci, even after relying on his advice. >> fauch i is a disaster. >> reporter: it's been just 17 days since the president returned to the white house after being hospitalized, ripping off his mask and proclaiming himself cured. >> they call them therapeutic, but to me it just made me better, okay? i call that a cure. >> reporter: the next four days, president trump remained out of sight, doing friendly interviews by phone. >> i will say this, absentee is okay, because absentee ballots -- excuse me. >> reporter: the president was given a mix of treatments at walter reed, including an antibody cocktail and a five-day course of remdesivir and received dexamethasone after his oxygen level dipped.

>> i smoke woke up and said gett of here. >> reporter: with an all clear from his doctor, president trump hit the trail. >> i'll kiss everyone in that audience. i'll kiss the guys and the beautiful women and everybody. i'll just give you a big fat kiss. >> reporter: still, much of the president's illness remains a mystery, as they dodged request for details. >> did the doctors say they saw pneumonia on your lungs? >> no, but they said the lungs are a little bit different, perhaps infected. >> infected with? >> i don't know. i mean, i didn't do too much asking. >> reporter: thewon't divulge when he last tested negative. >> if it's so important to you, why is it so important to you? >> reporter: the president has

now attended 15 rallies, three fund-raisers since his diagnosis. today was first lady melania trump's first appearance after she backed out of a rally earlier this week. the president has been quick to show off his recovered white house staff. >> we can share a microphone now. >> she just recovered from koift. >> reporter: but some advisers aren't so pleased. >> i was led to believe that all the people i was interacting with at the white house had been tested. and it gave you a false sense of security, and it was a mistake. >> reporter: former new jersey governor chris christie who tested positive after helping with president trump's debate prep sessions, wrote, wear a mask or you may regret it, as i did. and the president's campaign advisers are planning as many as five rallies between now and election day, which means tonight's zb with all of the

precautions being taken may be the safest event for the president over the next 11 or 12 days. >> thank you very much, jim. and since president trump had coronavirus, we have now seen that dreaded fall wave of coronavirus emerge. it's growing worse by the day. you have record hospitalizations in some states and deaths rising. john king has more on the pandemic and what you have seen so far of its impact on this presidential race. >> reporter: when the president says we're rounding the corner, the numbers don't lie. let's go through it. this map just tells you all you need to know. red and orange are bad. that means cases reporting new covid infections now compared to a week ago. new mexico, bright red. more than 50%, more cases this week compared to last week. new mexico is in crisis. 30 other states reporting more covid infections than last week. that is heading up the hill yet again. 1 states holding steady. only one, hawaii, reporting

fewer cases right now than a week ago. the country is trending in the wrong direction. remember, we've been through this for eight months. we went up the hill in march. we came down, and the president said here it would disappear in april. it didn't. the vice president said it would be behind us by memorial day. not true. the president said at the peak of the summer surge in late july, the virus will disappear. look what has happened since. we came down some to a baseline of 40,000. now we are heading back up with 60,000 new infections a day. the president said in july it would disappear. since then, more than half of the cases in the united states. 53% of the cases since the president said that. 36% of the deaths in the united states since the president said in july. it wasn't the first time, but at the peak of the summer surge, he said it would disappear. we're going back up. we're close to the peak of the summer surge, and everybody says we're going higher. where are we right now?

this trend line, it's a tough line to use, this is the trend line of american deaths from the coronavirus. and we went way up early on. it was new. the hospitals were overwhelmed. you do see, because of new treatme treatments, this has been down a little bit. but 1,000 american deaths in the last couple of deaths. that trend line starting to inch back up. you see the curve right there. this is the map of a crisis, plain and simple. the deeper the blue, the higher the positivity rate. more new infections today. the more people who test positive, the more risk of spread. 55% in iowa. 35% in south dakota. 31% in wyoming. 33% in idaho. this is more infections today, and it means more tomorrow, power play and simple. we have not rounded the corner. now, the ten states right now per capita reporting the most new covid cases, here there are. the case numbers might be trailing a bit, but these are the ten states with the most new

cases. who do they have in common? they all voted for president trump in 2016. all but one of them have republican governors. wisconsin has a democratic governor. it is going up. we're all americans going through this together, but watching the debate tonight, the president likes to make the point, the blue states are the problem. the blue states he says are staying closed to hurt him, to hurt the economy and to hurt him. if that comes up, we should look at this trend. yes, the blue states, california, washington state, new york in the northeast did go up the hill first. they have come down. stayed down, back up a little bit in the summer surge. look at the red states. these are states with republican governors. they were down at first. they drove the summer surge. it did come down some. but right now states with republican governors have a bigger problem than states with democratic governors. the president will say everyone is going through this. the world is going through this. he's right. in europe at the moment, has more cases per capita than the

united states. the united states is the green line. but this is what scares public health experts. if you look at the history, europe went up the hill first before the united states. then it did a remarkable job of flattening the curve. and now as we go back up, europe is shooting up. new restrictions in ireland, france, germany, across the continent as they see this. the worry here, especially because the president thinks we don't need to do anything, just wait for a vaccine, is the united states went up that curve behind europe, stayed higher than europe the entire thing, now starting to go back up again. if europe is going up like that, what is ahead for us? is it going to be when you look at the cases as we go up here, are we going to hit the summer surge and keep going? that's the worry as we get closer to the election. we have not rounded the corner. we're in a mess. >> all right, john, thank you very much. sobering but thorough analysis. i'm joined by our chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta and our medical analysis dr.

jonathan reiner. sanjay, in terms of this room that we're going to see tonight and this will be front and center, not just in terms of the substance and the policy, but business c physically. president trump and joe biden tested negative today. a plexiglass barrier has been removed. yet we'll see the coronavirus in that room. there are going to be 12'8" apart. the moderator 16 feet apart, everyone wearing masks, people with wrist bands because they were tested. but all of that puts the coronavirus in this debate. does it mean, though, that the virus isn't in the room? >> no, it doesn't. and i think this is a fundamental point. i mean, all those protections you mentioned, that's good. good for them that they're doing that stuff. but i think to your point, we're still talking about gathering a large group of people indoors, in the middle of a pandemic. two people who would be considered vulnerable by virtue of their edge will be unmasked,

speaking loudly. again, it's good that they're tested. but erin, they're trying to do the best they can, but this is a bad idea. i mean, somebody has to say that. call it for what it is. we're still in the middle of a pandemic. and everything that we've heard would suggest that you don't gather a large group of people indoors in a situation like this. >> yeah, as chris christie said, it was a serious failure to go maskless at the white house. and he almost paid for it with his life. you know, president trump said in an interview this week, probably more of what we will hear tonight, not much he could have done differently on coronavirus, rounding the corner, reopen. is that a winning argument to make in the context of what we just saw with john king? the surge in cases, the surge in hospitalizations, the red republican states right now leading on those counts? >> no, that's capitulation. and i don't think capitulation is a winning strategy. we have lived with this pandemic now for about 270 days.

and the toll has been awful. and if you look on average, we're losing basically five fully loaded 737s every single day during this pandemic. and all the president can say, if he could do things over again, there's not much he would do. look, if you fail a test, and then you go through your performance, and at the end, you say there's not much i would do differently, what you're really saying is that you've been overmatched by that test. and that's what the president is saying. i think if you ask the people that work for him, if you ask dr. birx, dr. fauci, dr. redfield, what they would go back and do if they could do it differently, they would shut down sooner, get testing online quicker, they would keep states shut down longer. there's a lot they can do. but we're making the same mistakes over and over again. when you make mistakes over and over again, they cease to become

mistakes, they become decisions. and the president has doubled down on his decisions and he has to live with that. >> sanjay, he has things to answer for tonight, right? this could come up on that debate stage. a new columbia university study, which says 130,000 to 210,000 coronavirus deaths could have been prevented in this country with earlier policy interventions and more robust federal coordination and leadership. now, i will grant you that is a huge range, okay? there's a lot of uncertainty in those numbers. i just want to point out that 210,000 deaths is 94% of the people who have died in this country would not be dead. sit a stunning thing to address for this president. >> this was a thorough analysis, erin. they looked at these countries, and they basically said if we had implemented the policies in x country, what would that have translated to in the united states? so south korea, for example, we bring it up because patients

were diagnosed on the same day. 2,799, that number represents the number of people that would have died in the united states if we adopted south korea's policy. not the number of people who would have been saved. so 220,000 versus 2,000 is essentially what they're saying. that's staggering, erin. japan, 4,315. australia. you see the numbers there. south korea initially, they didn't shut down. they had robust testing. they had kiosk testing. they did really robust tracing. it made a difference. they had to do it early and it made a huge difference. some of those same strategies that worked in the other countries, they can still make a difference in this country. this isn't about the rear-view mirror. so hopefully, we look at that and say it's horrifying, but also, you know, inspiring us to actually do more than we're doing. >> and is putting the onus on

president trump and bide n to sy what could be done. thank you very much. as we get ready for those questions at that debate stage, there are some minds, of course, that can't be changed tonight. not just because have already actually cast their ballots. we're going to bring down those huge voting numbers in some crucial battlegrounds next. [ sigh ] people ask ... what sort of a person should become a celebrity accountant? and, i tell them, "nobody should." hey, buddy. what's the damage? [ on the phone ] i bought it! the waterfall? nope! my new volkswagen. a volkswagen?! i think we're having a breakthrough here. welcome to caesar's palace. thank you. ♪ such as high blood pressure,ve pdiabetes, and asthma.s this administration and senate republicans

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scott wiener immediately went to work, making sure families could put food on their tables, defending renters facing eviction, securing unemployment benefits, helping neighborhood businesses survive. scott wiener will never stop working until california emerges from this crisis. the bay area needs scott's continued leadership in sacramento.

because we know scott is fighting for all of us. re-elect scott wiener for state senate. and we are getting closer to the finali debate between president trump and former vice president biden. with the election now less than two weeks away. but tens of millions of americans have already cast their votes. pamela brown is following the record-breaking early voting and everyone, pam, wants to know about this and what it means. what are the latest numbers? >> well, i'll tell you, erin, so far more than 46 million votes have been cast in this election and this map right here, it shows you the states in the dark orange where people are casting the most ballots. what we're learning when we look a little bit closer at these numbers, erin, democratic turnout advantage is narrowing in key states. key states like north carolina, right here, more than 2 million

votes have been cast early there. that's up from nearly 121% from this point in 2016. that's according to catalyst, a company that provides data analytics and other services to democrats, academics and nonprofit issue vocational organizations. but look the party breakdown here. democrats have an advantage over republicans around 32 percentage points in ballots cast early. now take a look at this. that margin has narrowed to just 15 points currently. and the narrowing gap is also striking when you look at florida. more than 3.6 million votes have been cast early in the sunshine state and the democratic advantage there, look at this, that's narrowed from around 21 points last week to 11 points in the most recent data. now, the numbers in florida also show more democrats are voting by mail while more republicans are voting in person. for context here, pre-election polls show republicans are more likely to vote in person on election day and democrats are more likely to vote early. so the fact that the early voting margin between the two

parties is narrowing is certainly interesting to note, but what these numbers do not tell suss who these voters cast their votes and, but one thing is clear, early voting enthusiasm is high, erin. >> incredibly high. all right. pamela, thank you very much. so let's get back to our team here to talk about this. so, nia, what do you take away from this? the traditional thing was, oh, well, voting early is going to advantage democrats. pam's numbers showing that we don't know that to be true. so when you go on to this stage in one hour, what does that mean? they know there's a whole lot of people they can't do anything about at this point. >> yeah, they've got to focus on the groups that they've got to win. people like seniors. people like independents. african-american voters. all of those demographics, latino voters. so i think that is what they have to do, speak directly to americans about the problems that americans are experience. covid obviously. and i think if you think about what this campaign is broadly about, covid, obviously, but

it's also about character, and so i think for trump that poses a bit of a problem because he's doing terribly among seniors, primarily because of character issues, i think, and also covid. so i think that's what they have to do. we don't know what these early voters are thinking, but they've got to keep what are americans going through in their kitchen table issues every single day. >> maggie, who does trump target tonight? >> look, think that trump needs to take the temperature down in ways that appeals to the seniors who he has lost. i think that is going to be a real tall order, erin. i think that he has repeatedly had opportunities since march with the coronavirus to target seniors and let them know that he was comforting them and that he was taking care of the issue and took to seriously, and instead he scared them over and over again with these press briefings that he did. so i think he's going to target seniors. i think he's got to target women, particularly suburban women. although, again, i think it's a very tall order. he is losing with that group of voters by a solid amount. now, republicans will say they are seeing early voting numbers that make them feel better than

perhaps democrats want them to. they suggest that their modelling shows that republicans who do support president trump are turning out. we just don't know who those republicans are actually voting for. we have a pretty good guess the democrats are backing joe biden. >> for sure. go ahead, michael. >> the troubling thing about all the early voting is that half the states in round numbers don't permit a cure when you haven't filled it out properly. a state like my own in pennsylvania, we've never voted absentee without cause in a presidential race before, so i'm just worried for the system that there'll be many errors made and many votes that aren't properly counted. so treat it like a wedding invitation. pay very close attention. make sure you're checking all the right boxes and returning it properly. and the issue, erin, at the end of the night is this, are we thinking comparison for these two or is it all still about donald trump? the president better hope that it's a comparison and it's not a referendum. >> so, nia, one group i want to

ask you about, biden right now behind hillary clinton and barack obama in his margins with black and latino voters. obviously this could be extremely significant. so what does that mean for what he does tonight? he's got to get those voters -- those numbers need to change, right? i mean, that's the bottom line. >> i think he's got to channel in some ways what we saw from barack obama last night. in barack obama essentially saying biden not be a perfect candidate, but he's certainly much better than trump is on any number of issues. i think would be the argument from -- from biden on criminal justice issues and on race just in general. trump is pretty much a race baiter, so i think if biden can hit those points in simple and compassionate ways, he could do himself some good among those groups. >> all right. all eyes on this debate. starting in just one hour. thanks so much to all of you. and our coverage of debate night in america continues right now. ♪

and we are just an hour away from the final debate between president donald trump and former vice president joe biden. it is a last chance to reach millions of voters at one time with just 12 days left until the election. it is "debate night in america." i'm anderson cooper. we'll soon find out if this debate is it anything like the first chaotic trump biden face-off. their 90-minute rematch is happening at bellevue university in nashville, tennessee, with an unprecedented rule in place. each candidate's microphone will be muted during their opponent's initial answers. tonight is the final of what may be the wildest presidential debate series ever, including the cancellation of the second debate after the president's covid-19 diagnosis. as always, wolf blitzer is here as we count down to the debate. wolf, the president's illness escalated concern certainly about safety at this debate tonight.

>> certainly did, anderson. we don't know if president trump was already infected at the last debate, but the white house says he tested negative tonight, as did joe biden. viewers will see social distancing on the stage. president trump will stand at a podium to the left of your tv screen. he'll be more than 12 feet away from former vice president biden. who will be standing to the right. plexiglass barriers had been installed between the candidates earlier for added protection, but both candidates agreed to take them down after mr. trump and mr. biden tested negative. tonight's moderator is kristen welker of nbc news. she will be seated over 16 feet away from the two candidates. when the debate gets under way, we're told president trump will get the first question. that will be the first test of the new microphone rule at the start of every new topic when one candidate is giving his first two-minute answer, the other candidate will be muted. these are the topics chosen by the moderator. fighting covid-19. american families. race in america.

as well as climate change, national security and leadership. we're covering every moment of this debate as well as voter reaction. daniel dale is standing by to fact check the candidates. gary tuchman is with some undecided north carolina voters who will be watching the debate. david chalian will bring us the first word on who won from a cnn instant poll. let's check in with our correspondents covering the campaign. first, jim acosta. what are you hearing about the president's campaign adviser? >> reporter: well, campaign advisers tell me they now believe it was a huge mistake for president trump to cancel on last week's debate, making a breakout moment a must tonight to shake up this race. one adviser said the president needs, quote, a leadership moment at the debate as biden is now seen as the front-runner heading into the final stretch of this campaign. the president is expected to raise some topics that he has struggled to inject into the mainstream news cycle. asked whether president missed an opportunity to do just that last week because he cancelled on that debate, one adviser

wrote back in all caps, "yes." wolf? >> all right. stand by. i want to go to arlette, covering the biden campaign. what are you learning about the former vice president's strategy? >> reporter: well, wolf, joe biden's messaging for the past few months has been incredibly consistent, focussing on the coronavirus pandemic and the economy. as he has tried to turn this election into a referendum on president trump's handling of the crisis. those are two issues he will hammer away at again tonight. and it's a contrast to the president, who has thrown many lines of attack at joe biden's way just to find something that will stick. now, one of the challenges for biden tonight will be to not get bogged down in the directions that president trump might try to take this debate. that is something his adviser have prepared him for as he's gotten ready for this debate. and one tactic that biden is likely to employ again tonight that he used in that first debate is looking directly into camera as he tries to make his case to voters. the biden campaign feels like

this is something that really broke through with people, that as he was trying to make his case and he will do again tonight in these waning days of the election. >> see how that goes. all right. arlette, thank you very much. jeff zeleny has some new reporting for us. it's not only the presidential candidates that have a big stake in tonight's debate. >> reporter: wolf, it's not just the race for the white house that has some republicans anxious tonight. it's also their attempt to hold on to the majority in the u.s. senate. now, after that first debate there certainly was a lot of heartburn for senators locked in key races across the country. since then we've seen a few of them gently step away and distance themselves from the president. i am told that if tonight's debate is a repeat of the first one, we will see several more republican senators likely do that, as well as republican senators potentially beginning to make the argument that, look, a joe biden potential presidency would need a republican senate to be a check on him. so, of course, republicans are hoping the president has a strong performance tonight. but senate majority leader mitch

mcconnell, i'm told, has also advised his senators to do whatever they have to do to try to win their races, so, wolf, it is, of course, the race for the presidency that is on the line, but as well republicans trying to hold the u.s. senate. wolf? >> yep. that's critically, critically important. all right, jeff, thanks very much. let's check in with jake tapper. jake, this is truly an historic night. >> big night, wolf. big night. dana and abby, one of the things i'm warning about with so much at stake is, who is left to convince? most concerns have made up their minds, according to polls. >> yeah. >> there are, however, still undecided voters and still soft trump supporters and soft biden supporters. so i'm willing to go out on a limb and say that donald trump's base, he's got them. >> yeah. >> he's got the base. >> i don't think it's so far out there on a limb. >> so if he goes out there tonight and does the whole breitbart, fox, china/hunter babble that most americans and certainly americans have not made up their mind yet have no idea what he's talking about, i

don't think that's going to convince anybody. >> i agree. have no idea what he's talking about and don't care. because what they care about is a deadly pandemic. what they care about is the fact that maybe they lost their job or they're trying to deal with their kids learning at home or anything else that has a real-world effect on their life, not some question about perhaps something having to do with his opponent's child which may or may not have happened. i mean, you know, maybe in some other times when we're all in prosperity and health, but not now. and that is what i'm hearing from the president's advisers over and over again. he's got to focus on the issues that people care about. it is a sliver of people who maybe are undecided, but this might be decided on the margins. >> just need enough in wisconsin, pennsylvania and michigan. >> i do think, though, the strategy for -- as they see it is a little bit different. it's not so much about changing people's minds about trump and making him seem better. it's actually, potentially, a

turnout depression -- depressor, particularly for people who might be tempted to vote for joe biden. remember, four years ago around this time this is the same basic argument they were making against hillary clinton. effectively, this hunter biden argument is a reducks sredux. the problem, though, is that that has been so hard for them to do when it comes to biden. >> that's right. >> biden has been consistently much more popular than the president. and these attacks are not breaking through. and it could be because people feel like they've seen this movie before. that this was the play that was made against clinton four years ago, and it's not clear to me that it's working. >> right. and it was also a play that was made after, you know, 40 years of attacks on hillary clinton. since 1991. >> it doesn't fit for biden with people's just sort of gut perception of him. that's just something that is hard to turn around in the last couple of months of a campaign.

people feel like in some ways they know who joe biden is as a guy, as a person, who they might want to go get a drink with or what have you. they don't think about him in the same way they did hillary clinton, for better or worse. >> you're exactly right. the president -- i was just talking to one of his allies before coming on, says he keeps running the 2016 campaign and it's 2020. not only does it not work as well for him because it's joe biden and not hillary clinton, it's because he's been president for four years. the country knows him. they know what he is good at and what he is not good at. and he hasn't laid out a clear vision for what he would do in a second term. these are people who like him and want him to win who are saying this. because they're so sick of telling him what they think he needs to do and he just isn't listening. >> let's talk about biden there for a second. what does he need to do, to use a basketball analogy, i think, unc's four corners offense is what they need to do.

he just needs to hold the ball as long as possible and not make any mistakes and run out the clock, right? i mean, that's basically -- that's basically what he needs to do is just not screw it up. >> not mess it up. do no harm is what i'm hearing from people who are close to joe biden. which is why he practiced a lot this past week. and he is not just, you know, taking this for granted and is not just kind of winging it. first of all, that's not just his style, but also he understands that the stakes are so high. he has to know exactly what his moves are going to be. very different from donald trump. >> can i say something, abby? and tell me what you think. i think it's, first of all, he's not a great debater, joe biden. he didn't win the last debate, it's just that donald trump, you know, went on stage and set himself on fire. second of all, he can get rattled very easily. any of us who have covered him as vice president or as a senator on capitol hill, you bring -- you challenge his integrity or his -- or the integrity of anyone in his family and he can go -- >> right. >> he can go wild. >> well, i think this is why

your basketball analogy -- this is kind of like putting a bull in the middle of the basketball court and having him just completely run wild. it's not going to be as simple as just joe biden trying to kind of keep the ball up in the air. >> right. >> he is dealing with a really unpredictable situation. and the president is going to be coming after him really hard. i think it's going to take a lot more than simply just trying to dodge the president. he's going to have to have a real strategy to push back and to defend himself against some of these accusations. >> all right. coming up, we'll take you inside the candidates' debate preparations. how will they deal with the moments when their microphones are muted? we have some new reporting on that. that's next. stay with us. "debate night in america" brought to you by rocket mortgage. home loans that fit your life. rocket can. the virus is surging...

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we're back with our special coverage of "debate night in america". you're looking at live pictures coming in from inside the debate hall. you see everybody wearing masks in contrast to what we saw in that first debate. the president and the former vice president are facing something new tonight, periods of time when their microphones will actually be muted. let's bring back dana bash. dana, this new rule is designed to avoid a repeat of the first

biden/trump brawl as it turned out to be. >> their prep couldn't be more different, wolf. joe biden's is, once again, more traditional, and donald trump's is not. >> reporter: erin burr's advice to alexander hamilton. >> talk less. >> what? smile more. >> reporter: it sums up what sources close to the president tell cnn he is hearing about tonight's debate. less this -- >> they will under my proposal. >> it's not what you said and -- >> reporter: and more this. >> it will create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth. >> there are a lot of people who say let him talk because he loses his -- loses his mind, quite frankly. >> my last piece of advice to the president which i shared with directly and before the first debate, let biden speak. >> i'm in favor of law. >> are you in favor of law and order? >> reporter: this time team trump hopes he will listen. >> joe biden is in some spaces and places during that first debate was just about to say something that is out of touch with the american people, and so

my argument is let him finish his sentence. >> i think that joe biden was incredibly powerful in the town hall last week. because he wasn't interrupted. because he could talk about his plans. >> reporter: the newmute button >> it doesn't mean that donald trump's not going to be over there talking. if we can't hear him talking and joe biden can, that's still disruptive for joe biden. >> reporter: cnn is told that biden has been practicing not getting distracted if that happens again. with trump's stand-in bob bauer constantly interrupting biden during mock debates this week. as for the president -- >> what am i doing to prepare? i'm doing this. >> reporter: he abandoned semistructured sessions in the white house map room before the first debate. instead, preparing in small doses with a few aides on the road between rallies where he works on his arguments with the help of his crowds. >> if you vote for biden, he will surrender your jobs to china. >> reporter: longtime adviser kellyanne conway, who helped prep trump for debate number one, says success this time

would be talking about promises kept. from renegotiating trade deals to cutting taxes and adding some levity. >> he can say, you know what, joe, in my second term, i'll promise in my second term i'll tweet less, but you have to tax less. are you willing to make that -- are you willing to make that promise right here and now? >> reporter: biden is working to replicate moments that broke through, like talking directly to camera. >> you folks at home, you folks living in scranton and claymont and all the small towns and working-class towns in america, how well are you doing? >> reporter: jennifer granholm who helped biden in past debate prep sessions says he is best when he stays true to his brand. >> was there a moment watching the debate last time as somebody who has prepped joe biden in the past when you said, oh, no, don't do that? >> the only thing that i had a question about was him calling him a clown. because it was an -- it was calling somebody a name. >> some people don't -- >> well, here's -- >> go ahead. >> wait a minute.

you get the final word. >> well, it's hard to get any word in with this clown. excuse me, this person. >> reporter: biden himself later called that a mistake, one he'll try to avoid repeating. >> i did get frustrated. i should have called this a clownish undertaking instead of calling him a clown. >> as for tonight's unprecedented attacks on tonight's moderator, kristen welker. kellyanne conway told me she thinks welker is one of the hardest working members of the white house press corps and thinks that welker will be very fair. it's not just the female moderator, the president speaking to america's women, wolf. >> kristen welker is an excellent, excellent journalist and a very nice person at the same time. i know you agree with me, dana, i do. >> how much will this debate really matter, especially for the president when he looks for a boost with only 12 days left. john king is back with us. john, put the stakes for this debate in perspective. >> wolf, the president comes in trailing candidatdouble digits

national polls. that would be a comeback of historic proportions. let's go back to 1980. reari ronald reagan, the challenger versus the incumbent president jimmy carter, a long time ago, right? ronald reagan came in with a slight lead or a tie. ten points ronald reagan gained from the final debate until election day. that is what donald trump needs to match, ten points right there. that's back in time to 1980. let's fast forward, 1988. then vice president george h.w. bush against michael dukakis. vice president bush came in with a six-point lead. on election day, he won by seven points. not much changed between the final debate and election day in that campaign. 1992, you remember it well, wolf, this is the three-way race with proceross perot. it made the debates interesting. made the numbers interesting, too. governor bill clinton came in with a lead. ross perot had 13. this is fascinating. both bush and perot moved after

the debate, just not enough. hw bush moved nearly ten points. that's what president trump's done. governor clinton would win the presidency with 43% of the vote. bush v. gore, 2000. before we got to the supreme court, governor bush of texas then getting the sitting vice presidential gore, they came into the final debate with governor bush with a five-point lead. on election day, al gore came back to win the popular vote just by a little bit. it was very close but, of course, he lost at the supreme court, lost in the electoral college because of that and george w. bush would go on to be president. 2004, people forget how close this race was. senator john kerry against the incumbent president. the first presidential election after 9/11. they came into the final debate tied essentially. kerry, 48, bush, 47. but he stressed national security in the final days. again, the first election post-9/11. and on election day, governor bush got 51%.

48% for senator kerry. ohio decided the winner in this one. not a lot of movement, though, between the final debate and election day. the movement that did happen for president bush, this was history in the making. the united states electing its first african-american president in 2008. john mccain was the republican candidate. the iraq war was the big issue. people were tired of it. barack obama came in with a big lead, 14 points there. he actually lost a little bit of ground, but he still won comfortably on election day. again, final debate not changing the debate -- the campaign all that much. now let's fast forward. we all remember this. 2016, right? well, when they came into the final debate, hillary clinton had a five-point national lead. a five-point national lead coming into the final debate four years ago. we all know what happened on election day. president trump actually gained four points in the national popular vote, but, of course, hillary clinton won the popular vote. donald trump because of that gain where it played out in the states won the presidency and the electoral college. he went up from the final debate a little bit last time through the 2016 election. here's the challenge in the 2020 election, though.

the president enters this debate ten points down. ronald reagan moved ten points. george h.w. bush moved nine points. that whacky three-way race. if donald trump is to reverse this using the final debate, wolf, that would be something for the history books, anderson. >> john king, appreciate it. let's go to our team. david axelrod, you know, we hear people tonight talking about, you know, this is the last chance for both candidates to change any dynamics that they want in this race. they're going to have this large audience, but you also have to remember who both of these people are, in particular president trump has come off a pretty erratic, you know, period of time since he last debated. i mean, he became infected with covid. he might have been infected when he was on the debate stage last time with joe biden. i mean, most recently he's calling for joe biden to be investigated and have charges brought against him by his own attorney general. do you see some sort of change in dynamics for this president on this stage tonight? >> it is hard to see. gloria said it earlier. i agree with her. the other problem that he has,

anderson, you know, i was listening to john king's recitation there. there are very few americans who are undecided right now. if you believe the polls. there are very few moveable parts left. we're a very polarized country. and 1/3 of the country will have voted effectively by tonight, 1/3 of those who are expected to vote. so there aren't that many moveable parts. the president has to move ten points and he has a very short playing field here. so even if he behaves well, that is a difficult task. and behaving well is a difficult task for him. his -- here's the problem. he, in his own mind, believes that he has a majority out there and he just needs to mobilize them. and he -- and the way he sees mobilizing them is doing the things that he does at his rallies. he -- when, in fact, he has to persuade people who have committed to voting for -- in their own minds to voting for joe biden that they need to switch. and he's not going to do that by

repeating his rally tactics. >> and, you know, the thing is, what he's got to try and do is make joe biden completely unacceptable. he's just not an alternative to me. that's what he's got to tell the american public. even if you don't like me, perhaps, look at this guy. he's a crook. you can't trust him. you can't -- whatever it is. that's what he's going to try and do tonight. and what you have out there is an american public that is completely polarized. a very small sliver of undecided voters. and joe biden's own supporters are moving up in enthusiasm. you know, they weren't very enthusiastic about joe biden. they're still not as enthusiastic as trump supporters are about him, but they've warmed up to joe biden. so if he's going to try to convince people, okay, this guy is unacceptable, the best he can hope for, i think, is to convince people to stay away. and to say, well, i don't like either one of these guys. >> yeah, but i think what's going on with him is i think he's -- it's like a show that's

in reruns, right? >> yeah. >> so he's trying to do what he did last season. last season he got criminalized hillary clinton because comby threw this kind of bombshell at the end. and so he's trying to criminalize biden. >> right. >> but it just doesn't work. but what he forgets -- the other thing that trump did is he also calmed it down a little bit near the end, and he doesn't seem to understand, look, first of all, you can't criminalize biden. in fact, if biden is such a criminal, why haven't your -- why hasn't your own department of justice put him in jail? >> well, that's what he's asking. >> true. >> my point is that he was trying to do this rerun strategy, but he actually is misreading what he did last time. last time he actually did calm down. i agree with senator santorum. he may calm down a little bit. he may not be as erratic and crazy, but he's going to be doubling down and tripping down on these themes that nobody cares about but him. nobody cares about hunter biden when they can't send their kids

to school and they don't have a job. >> can i also ask you, do you believe these polls? a ten-point lead in a national poll. >> do i? >> no, i'm talking to senator santorum. national polls, you know, what matters is a bunch of different states and what's going to happen in those states. do you think there is -- that trump is pollable? >> yeah, i think if you look at the individual states -- and i know you guys had that up earlier. there's no ten-point gap in any of those states. they're all within the margin of error or just outside the margin of error and most of them have been closing in the past couple of weeks. i think one of the reasons we got distance from that debacle debate. so i don't think he's going to repeat it tonight. the other thing is i understand, you know, the president has been going out after people. he always does that. but if you listen to his speeches and you listen to the name that's out there, he is effectively, you know, separating himself and contrasting himself with joe biden and what a joe biden

america will look like and what a donald trump america will look like. and that's what he's got to do tonight. he's been doing that very effectively on the trail and i think it's paying off. he's toned down -- he's donald trump. when i say toned down it's all relative, but the other thing is we are two worlds, and the conservative world is on fire right now with this whole hunter biden/joe biden scandal. and he's got to deal with it. he's going to mention it. and he's going to try to bring it out into the mainstream. >> closing in on the start of the final presidential debate of the 2020 election. coming up, we're going to check in with some of those undecided voters were were just talking about, see what they need to hear before they can make a decision. we'll also see first lady melania trump for the first time since her bout with covid-19. we have some new details about how she is doing, next.

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♪ ♪ heart monitors that let your doctor watch over you, just like you watch over your best friend. another life-changing technology from abbott, so you don't wait for life. you live it. as we count down to the final trump/biden, right at the top of the hour, you're looking at live pictures coming in. our fact checker daniel dale is getting ready for what is almost certainly going to be a very busy night. daniel, what are some of the false or misleading claims you've been hearing from the president this week? >> wolf, there have been just so many of them. i've been fact checking president trump for more than four years. the period from friday to sunday

where he had a lot of rallies was possibly the most dishonest period he's had. the coronavirus pandemic. one of the things he's been saying for months and keeps saying this week is that the pandemic is going away or that we are rounding the turn, rounding the corner. that's a vague phrase, wolf, but it's just the opposite of the truth, whatever precisely he means. we are back to more than 60,000 cases per day. the president likes to dismiss the metric of cases while hospitalizations are rising again and deaths are rising again. we're now having again 1,000 deaths in individual days. he's also saying, wolf, that it was supposed to be 2.2 million deaths. he said, well, it's very bad, you know, we're above 200,000. it was supposed to be ten times that. this is a gross inaccurate description of a statistic from an academic report in march that said if no u.s. government and no u.s. citizen did anything to try to fight the virus then in this worst case unrealistic scenario, in that case, there would be 2.2 million deaths. i'd like to add, wolf, he also

continues to wrongly describe joe biden's policy positions under a joe biden presidency, 180 million people would be kicked off their private health insurance plans. that is not true. joe biden is a vocal proponent of single-payer medicare for all plans. wolf, they would not be forced on to it if they didn't want to be. >> yep, good points indeed. daniel, based on all your fact checking, what do you see as joe biden's biggest vulnerabilities tonight? >> well, from a fact check perspective, wolf, biden stretches a lot. it's not usually the kind of egregious lying we see from donald trump, but he'll say things that i've heard i would be the first non-ivy league educated president in 80 or 90 years or ever. in fact, the first since rage. . he'll say trump advised people to inject bleach.

he didn't actually advise people to drink bleach. or biden will say, you know, trump eliminated funding for community policing. trump did propose a significant budget cut for community policing, but congress didn't agree and even the trump proposal wasn't an elimination. so for biden i'm looking for exaggeration, wolf. >> all right. we'll see what happens. thank you so much, daniel dale, our fact checker. i want to check in with a group of undecided voters in a very important battleground state. we're talking about north carolina. they'll be watching the debate tonight and giving us realtime reaction. gary tuchman is on the scene with them in davidson, north carolina. gary, set the scene for us. >> well, wolf, we want to welcome you to the beautiful campus of davidson college in davidson, north carolina, just north of charlotte. and we are with 11 north carolina voters. we're socially distance. we're wearing masks. we're outdoors, but it's a great night to be outdoors. perfect weather to watch an outdoor debate. what all these people have in common is none of them have early voted because none of them know positively who they're going to vote for.

this is a critical state, as you said, wolf, especially for a republican. donald trump won it four years ago, but right now the polls show it's very tight. that joe biden has a slight lead. and this is an important state for a republican to win. in the last half century, only two democrats have one here. in the bicentennial year of 1976, jimmy carter won, and in 2008 in when he first ran for president, barack obama won. the question you're probably asking right now, i'm sure you're asking this question is, how can't these people know who they're voting for just yet, right? that's the question. i will tell you, most of these people are leaning towards one of the two candidates. a couple of the voters here still have no idea whatsoever. first of all, colleen is one of those people. colleen is semiretired, which means she's semi still working, right, colleen? >> yes. >> okay. i want to ask you how come you have no idea who you want to vote for. you voted for gary johnson four years ago. how come you haven't decided between trump and biden? >> i haven't gotten specifics that tell me that there is a candidate among them to have the

will and the wherewithal and the temperament to do what's right for our country. i'm hoping to see some more specifics tonight and make a decision. >> do you think you'll have a decision after tonight? you hoping for that? >> it depends on how it goes. >> okay. to your right, there is harrison. harrison is a student here at davidson college. he's 20 years ago. doing my math, four years ago you were 16. you are undecided completely. why are you still undecided? >> well, i really oppose abortion. but i'm concerned that president trump is a threat to the fairness of elections, so i'm really torn. >> you think you'll have a decision by the time this debate is over? nothing big happening after this. this is the biggest event before election day. >> oh, i surely doubt it, but the confirmation vote on monday will be interesting. >> okay. you may wait until a couple of days longer. thank you for talking with us. i do want to point out we've given everyone an iphone with a special program. when they strongly agree with something during the debate, they swipe up. when they strongly disagree,

they swipe down. we'll present the scientific results when the debate is all over. we'll also find out who they think won the debate, and most importantly, who they're going to vote for for president of the united states. wolf? >> gary, looking forward to checking in with you right after the debate. as people are gathering in the audience for tonight's debate, there are questions about the first lady's health following her bout with covid-19. kate bennett covers melania for us. kate, what can you tell us about how mrs. trump is doing? >> reporter: she's doing much better, wolf. i'm told that she will be wearing a mask tonight. the lingering cough that she cited the other night when she cancelled on that rally is doing a bit better. of course, this is a first lady who has not made an appearance on the campaign trail outside of the rnc speech at the white house in over a year. so her appearance tonight is very important for the trump campaign. also, we have not seen her publicly since september 29th at the last debate. of course that was right before she said she was diagnosed with covid-19.

she and her son barron she said were both ill here at the white house. so, of course, the past two weeks not on the trail. that's perfectly normal and acceptable. she was quarantined in the white house. but for a first lady not to participate in campaign events where typically they're utilized and deployed on behalf of the candidate historically is very unusual. and of course we didn't see a lot of her in 2016 either. she wasn't a prolific speaker. she wasn't a visible presence that often on the campaign trail. i am told, wolf, that she does have dates on her calender next week to campaign for the president. solo and with him as well. so we will see that come to fruition. however, it's a week before the election. and, again, a first lady often serves to humanize her husband. sort of be an empathetic party to what the candidate is like. and sometimes to rally women voters or undecideds, sort of like the ones we just saw there. so it absolutely -- >> by the way, kate -- want to

interrupt for a second. you see the motor cade arriving there in nashville at belmont university. the president of the united states and his motorcade, they are arriving. anderson, we're getting closer and closer to the start of this debate. >> yeah, we certainly are. just a little bit more than 20 minutes away. i want to bring in our team again. david axelrod, it's often -- one doesn't pay a lot of attention to what's going on in the audience at a debate. though tonight, given what happened at the first debate where most of the people in the trump family took off their masks once they came into the hall, which was against the rules or what they had all agreed to for the debate commission, tonight there is certainly going to be a lot of people looking to see does the family actually continue to abide by the rules of the debate commission? >> yeah, well, there's no question about that and it really underscores the fact that you can't get away from this covid issue. and one of the problems the president has is that he wants to tell us we're rounding the corner just at a time when we

are cresting and that is going to hang over this debate. oonch anderson, i just want to say one other thing. you asked about polling before. the single biggest predictor for a president when they're running is their job approval rating. this president's has been mired in the low to mid-40s throughout his presidency. it's around 43.5 now. i think presidents rarely get much higher than their number. so he can't simply resist answering questions about covid, about health care, about things relative to his message, as much as he wants to make it a comparative process, if he's going to persuade those who are resistant to vote for him. >> gloria, we did hear from the -- from the trump campaign. they sent a letter to the debate commission. they were not happy. they wanted more foreign policy in this debate. >> sure. well, they're not happy about anything. and they said that they wanted more foreign policy, but they agreed to the rules. they agreed to the rules. they agreed to the moderators. they agreed to the format. they agreed to everything.

and so suddenly the candidate starts paying attention, which is what i believe is occurring, and they're complaining and this is -- you know, this is what donald trump does. he's all about grievance before he goes -- before he goes into a debate. he's about grievance before he goes into an election. and he tells you that it's rig. rigged. and what they want him to do is to talk about the economy. to talk about what he's done for the country before covid and convince the american public that he can get the country back. the problem that he has is not only his lack of popularity. as david points out, is that people don't trust him. >> exactly. >> they don't believe him. they don't think he's honest. so when he levels charges against joe biden, also about hunter, et cetera, that would boomerang on him, too. >> you know, the -- one of the things we haven't talked about is it the last two times he had donald trump on the national stage, he managed to use the highest office in the land to uplift some of the lowest people

in the country. the first time he was talking -- he wound up praising the proud boys or seeming to kind of give a positive signal to the proud boys. then the last time he couldn't deal with the qanon question. >> yeah. >> so i'm curious tonight, is he going to finally be able to stick up for the best in the country without applauding the worst in the country? and also, you know, these continued attacks on joe biden's character, the biggest smear on the president's character is these 545 children, these refugee children who were torn away from their parents and now this president cannot find their moms and their dads. so if he wants to make this an issue about character and pro-life and pro-kids. no way. no way. and so, you know, you got a president of the united states tonight who has got to -- if he wants to come out here and play dirty, there's some real issues that can be talked about, but i hope he will not continue to praise the worst elements in american society. >> look, i -- the -- the donald trump that you're going to see

is a donald trump that was at the last debate with hillary clinton. which is someone who was controlled and did something that -- that he's actually good at, which is to become -- be a little bit more of an entertainer, you know, try to -- if he's going to make those off -- off comments, instead of being confrontational, to throw a little humor at biden. now, it will be cutting humor, no doubt, but try to -- try to be a little bit more less edgy, less angry and more punchy and going after the swamp, if you will. and so, remember -- >> he is the swamp. >> one of the big things that donald trump -- one of the big things that donald trump won this election, he was the outsider trying to drain the swamp and that's why you're going to hear about the scandal that's going on that is all over the conservative world because it feeds into that whole swamp nature and that he's not part of that. >> but he's the president. he's the president. >> and he is the swamp. i mean, the -- >> well, look -- >> anyway -- >> donald trump has not been a washington creature.

let's just be -- he's been anything but a traditional president. i think anyone can agree to that. >> certainly swimming in a pool with a lot of washington creatures that he has around him, though. >> right. >> with just 12 days to go before election day, joe biden is facing different advantages and challenges than hillary clinton faced four years ago. want to go back to john king. >> many democrats say look at this map. joe biden with this electoral lead. we're good, right? up ten points. other democrats say, no, wait a minute, we were leading heading into the last debate last time. he had hillary clinton past 270 electoral votes in our outlook. what's different this time? we'll look at some of the differences and also look at some of the similarities if you will. let's start with some of the differences. let's look at the demographics. when you go into the demographics on the polling, hillary clinton on election day won women across america and won big. joe biden lost voters among the able of 65. incredibly important voters in a number of states. joe biden leads there right now. this is a warning sign for the democratic candidate.

hillary clinton won latinos by nearly 40 points. joe biden's lead is only in the 20s. that's a warning sign. nearly 40 points amembers of congress white non-college americans. joe biden trails among that demographic not by as much. we'll go through a little bit of why and where this matters. women helps you everywhere. a majority of the electorate on the election day. that giant gender gap helps joe biden. older voters, if joe biden can keep a lead, if he can win senior citizens on election day, well, right now we have florida as a toss-up state. it's an advantage for biden. it's one of the reasons the state is competitive. it's also the reason we lean arizona democrat. however, the flip side is if you look at those latino numbers, if donald trump comes back in florida, comes back in arizona, tries to mount a comeback, behind that graphic there is nevada. that's a warning sign for the vice president. if this is a good debate for the president tonight and we have a tight race in those states heading into the final days. one last point before i switch maps. white non-college voters.

look, joe biden is losing and, and losing by a lot, but not by as much as hillary clinton. which is one of the reasons this is in play. not just that we lean wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania joe biden's way right now, but ohio is a toss-up. joe biden is in play in blue collar industrial america in a way hillary clinton simply was not. let's switch maps for just a couple more comparisons of this. we'll go back to the map that makes democrats cringe. this 2016. hillary clinton wins the popular vote. she loses, though, because of the electoral college. because of the three states right there plus ohio that flipped. why do we want to look at this map? voters view joe biden simply differently on questions of personal character. abby phillip talked about this a little bit earlier. are the candidates honest? only 34% of americans thought that about hillary clinton. joe biden is at 57%. he's winning, if you will, the character test with the american voters right now. here's another way to look at that. his favorability rating. only 42% of americans had a favorable rating of hillary clinton, liked her.

53% for joe biden. on the character question, people view joe biden not only more favorably than they viewed hillary clinton. they view joe biden a lot more favorably than they view the current president of the united states who they do not see as honest and trustworthy. that is a joe biden biden advantage. democrats can look all of this and say, anderson, okay, that's a good thing. maybe why democrats get a little bit nervous. let's pop up some battleground state polls and compare them to a couple of years ago. move it over here a little bit like this. here we go. so right now joe biden does have a lead. ten points nationally. he is leading in a lot of battleground states and competitive in states that hillary clinton lost in 2016. but let's compare joe biden right now in wisconsin, up eight points. hillary clinton at this point was up seven. joe biden is up a little bit in ohio right now. hillary clinton trailed. that's a strength for biden, but still pretty close. look at pennsylvania, joe biden's lead is nine, but hillary clinton was up six at this point four years ago.

north carolina is about the same. florida, let me move this down a little wit bit. florida, hillary clinton was more at this point than joe biden is now. democrats say, let's get texas. well, they said that four years ago, too, and it didn't turn out. so if you look at the horse race polls, everyone needs to be careful. we got 12 days to go. if you look deeper into the polls, this is a very different campaign. voter dos not view joe biden the same negative way they viewed hillary clinton. guess what? that's why you have one more debate. we'll see if anything changes after tonight, anderson. >> yeah, seeing a state by state comparison to sea 16 is fascinating. thanks, john. appreciate that. hugest early voting numbers that are breaking records. pamela brown is tracking election ballots. what are you seeing tonight? >> the bottom line, anderson, a lot of voters have already cast their ballots. take a look here. early voting continues to skyrocket. with more than 46 million votes cast so far. we're seeing record early voting turnout in florida, georgia and texas, in states you see on the map. let's take a closer look at the

lone star state. so far nearly 35% of all registered voters have cast their balloted compared to just 18% last time. wisconsin, the number of registered voters casting their ballots early shot up 20% -- 20 points from 2016 with more than 1.1 million casting their ballots so far. and we still have a week and a half to go, anderson. >> how will these big pre-election voting numbers impact how quickly the votes are counted? do we know yet? >> yeah, this is why these early voting numbers are so important. i'll tell you why. because wisconsin and pennsylvania, theese are two states that could determine who wins the president and i they can't start processing and counting those ballots until election day in those two key states. which there is a good chance they won't be done with the initial count until days after the election. you see on the screen in pennsylvania, more than 1.1 million votes have been cast. now, a majority of those votes were cast through mail-in ballots compared to going in-person, as you see this breakdown right here.

just over 57,000 went in person with more than 1.1 going actually and mailing their ballots. and wisconsin is a very similar story there if you look at the breakdown here. 981,000 mail-in ballots versus nearly 150,000 in-person ballots. now, in both of these states, absentee ballots are essentially processed and counted the same way and, again, they can't start until election day. in pennsylvania, mail-in ballots can be accepted up to three days after election day, if cast by election day. and in wisconsin, as of now, all ballots must by delivered by election day. that case is still before the supreme court, anderson. >> all right. let's go to jake. jake? >> thanks, anderson. fascinating stuff. and yet it really brings into focus how this thing isn't over when you remember what the polls look like in these battleground states, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, and how hillary clinton was up then, just as joe biden is now. now, i will say that if you talk to pollsters, they'll say that -- that they've gone back and figured out what they got wrong.

which was that they had overestimated how many college-educated voters would vote and underestimated how many non-college-educated voters would vote. they feel like they're more accurate now. but you know, who knows? >> yeah, and i think turnout is one of the big questions that i still have as we go into these final few days. a lot of people are voting. we know that. huge, huge numbers of people. the question is how much are we cannibalizing election day numbers? or are we looking at a bigger electorate? are we looking at more people who are choosing to vote because it's easier for them to do it? maybe they have access to absentee ballots and they're using it. and maybe they didn't vote in the past because going to vote on election day was too difficult. we still don't really know the answer to that question. and it's going to be critical because typically republicans believe that when turnout is high democrats tend to do better. when it's lower, republicans tend to do better. i don't know if that'll be true this time around, but it's one

of the many open questions that we have. >> meetly uncharted waters because of the remarkable early voting numbers that we're seeing thanks to the pandemic and all of the laws and the rules changing in so many of these battleground states. but when you talk about turnout, what did happen for years ago in states like pennsylvania where i was a few -- commonwealth, sorry, like pennsylvania. i know, i know. i caught myself. a few weeks ago is that turnout was much higher in republican areas than anybody anticipated. people kind of came out of the woodwork for donald trump. and what the trump campaign is banking on with his play to the base strategy is that that will happen again and on top of what they got before. it is a very, very risky strategy but they don't really have a choice given the fact that they have a candidate who is behaving the way he behaves despite the advice that he's given many times to act quite differently. >> the other thing that's interesting when you look back at 2016 is i remember, you know,

trump would land in the middle of pennsylvania, in the middle of the night, like at 11:30, and there would be 20,000 people there. and hillary clinton would go to a gym in the philadelphia suburbs in the middle of the day and there would be like 100. and we would discount that. we didn't think it meant anything necessarily. it's just crowds. you can't go by crowds. and it's true you can't go by crowds. but it does reflect to a certain degree voter enthusiasm and i think that donald trump, the polls bear out, even polls that show joe biden winning the election, that donald up from has more enthusiastic supporters than biden does. now, does that mean anything, especially if attempts are being made to make it easier to vote so you don't have to get up on election day and stand in line? i don't know. >> yeah, i really don't know. and i also think this cycle democratic voters, they have complicated motivations for going to the polls. maybe they're not so jazzed about joe biden. but they really, really dislike

donald trump. and yes, they disliked donald trump four years ago but i think the urgency is different this time around. and i suspect that these polls that measure people's enthusiasm could be discounting the sense with which people are answering that question based on how they feel about joe biden, not based on how motivated they are to actually get out and cast a ballot one way or another. >> yeah. i think you're exactly right. and one thing i want to bring up as we wait for the debate to start tonight is that you know, obviously the focus is on the presidential race but what donald trump does or doesn't do, how he performs tonight, is going to matter not just for him and whether he wins a second term but for so many down ballot republicans, particularly in the senate where the balance of power really is at stake. republicans of course are in control. there are a lot of vulnerable gop senators. and they are worried. many of them said that they saw their numbers drop because of what happened in the first debate and they're worried it could happen again. >> oh, yeah. absolutely. they're distancing themselves from them.

we'll see what happens. let's check in right now on what's happening on the stage as we await the start of this final presidential debate. >> carry out secret mission. >> where is everybody? >> everybody's inside so they don't spread this virus. >> there is a virus? >> if you think you see a virus go like that. when the candidates make their debate pitches tonight, they will have voters in must-win battlegrounds on their mind. there is the first lady melania trump walking in. she has a mask on. presumably this time she will not take it off. david chalian is with us. david, we're keeping an eye on the first family as they walk

into the arena there. you're keeping tabs on the key races to watch. >> just as you heard pam brown talking about 47 million people have voted, let me try to explain the stakes tonight, especially for the president here, because we have two battleground states and a brand new poll from cnn in each of them that tells us how people are casting those early ballots. take a look in florida, jake. you see here among those who've already voted their vote is splitting 71% for biden, 27% for trump. plan to vote, meaning from tomorrow forward, 40% biden, 56% trump. so the stakes tonight, when you look at something like that, donald trump needs to win a much greater share of voters moving into this debate because joe biden is banking so much of the early vote already. anderson? >> let's go back to our team. david axelrod, i mean, what is

going through candidates' minds before they step on the stage like this? >> you know, they basically are thinking of the things that they've been generally -- i don't know what the president does. most candidates who have prepped are thinking about those things that they want to hit, the cues that they're going to hear that will cause them to give the answers that they've been prepped day after day after day. biden's probably thinking about what he's going to do if he's interrupted by the president. but there's a lot of tension associated with these moments. i remember being in a locker room with president obama before good debates where he said we're going to have a good night and bad debates when he said let's just get out of here, get this over and get out of here. you walk into the hallway and you know pretty much how it's going to go. >> i'll tell you a story about joe biden that i learned when i was reporting a documentary about him is before all his big debates beau biden used to be the last person in the room with

him and he would say to him dad, remember, home base. home base. just remember what you need to say and say it. home base. that was their little code. and i bet he's thinking about that. >> go ahead. >> i can just say, having been there, you know your vulnerabilities. for me it was -- my wife or someone would come up and say "happy warrior." because you want to be out there and you want to fight but you don't want to turn people off by being too combative. and if there's anybody that needs the admonition of happy warrior, it's donald trump. so hopefully someone has whispered in the president's ear happy warrior part. >> he's got the warrior part. >> and who would that be? >> van, for people watching tonight, i'm going to ask this of everybody. what are you going to be particularly watching for from both candidates? >> look, i think when joe biden looks into the camera, speaks

directly to the american people and not only does he talk about their pain but his plan, i think he's at his strongest. donald trump is going to do everything he can to make sure biden doesn't do that very often. so i'm going to be looking for the discipline of joe biden, trusting the american people, trust your plan, trust your connection to them. stay there. do not chase this guy all -- you know, don't respond to stuff that you don't think americans care about and he's going to be fine. but if he gets rattled, all bets are off tonight. >> and anderson, i would kind of use, odd for me, a sports analogy. but i would say you've got these two gentlemen here with different goals. one of them wants to run out the clock and one of them's looking for a hail mary. and so they have two very different goals, and they're going to approach it in two very different ways. >> i think the other issue is does the president come out and is he going to go very personal very quickly or does he stick to policy distinctions? i think a lot of republicans are hoping he'll go policy. if he goes personal, we could have a repeat of what we saw three weeks ago that was a

disaster for him. >> david axelrod, even though the mikes are muted for two minutes during each statement, the candidate can hear the other candidate if they continue to talk to them when the mike is muted. that can actually be even worse for a candidate because then they're stumbling if they get thrown by that and the audience doesn't know why they're stumbling. >> yeah. which is why i said earlier i'm not sure that this actually benefits biden. and i'm sure that a lot of their debate prep was how do you talk when you have a heckler in your ear. it is difficult, especially under the pressures they face. so this is going to be a test for him. >> i've got to go back to jake tapper. jake? >> anderson, thanks so much. well, i think one of the big questions, abby and dana, is how disciplined donald trump and joe biden can be. to be completely frank, neither is known as completely disciplined, although biden has run a very disciplined campaign, aided in part by the fact that we're in the middle of this

pandemic. but if they stick to their plans, each one of them could make inroads, i think. but that's a wild card. >> yeah. you know, the truth is joe biden has, a, run a pretty disciplined campaign up to this point. and his debate performances, even dating back to the ca campaign, the primary campaign, were pretty disciplined. president trump, though, has rejected as dana has reported the kind of formal debate prep you really need to do in order to navigate a tricky situation. he has had a couple of opportunities in the last week, a "60 minutes" interview, a town hall, to articulate his plan for dealing with the virus and his plan for four more years. he has struggled to do that. will that change tonight i think is one of the biggest questions be