hello, everybody. i'm chr cuomo, along with my man d-lemon. don lemon. our final post debate extravaganza of 2020. >> final, tifinal. >> i will say this, it was the last debate. and you saw both men for who they are. and don and i both believe the teams have pretty much been decided. >> yep. >> and it's time to play the game. >> yep. but you did get to see the best version of donald trump that you have seen in a debate. low bar. >> good morning to you. good morning honest abe. >> who you calling abe lincoln? i never said i'm abraham lincoln. i didn't say that. of all the things that was too much. >> i was like, he is offended by that, by honest abe. that was a good line though,

don't you think? >> for joe abibiden, i thought t was a good line. >> as you say on curb your enthusiasm. >> pretty, pretty, pretty good. >> i thought that it was good that the format worked. >> yeah. >> it worked well. and you got to see points of contrast between the two men. and it is very clear -- >> hm-mm. >> that this country will go in very different directions based on who wins. i think that joe biden had to deal with a very well thought outline of attack by the president about his son and him making money. the vice president kept saying no, no, no. >> i got something about that. >> i'm sure you do. >> what i'm saying and the president was plagued by one single word tonight. >> what h? >> how. >> how, we will talk about that, keep that word in mind. >> got it. >> i thought the attack on the

vice president's family -- well, it's weird, you would have thought in this debate that joe biden was the president and donald trump was the vice president because joe biden was on the offense more. right? don't you think it was -- seemed like role reversal, if you were not actually, if you didn't know. but the other thing is, is that i think that you need like a secret code book to know what -- a decoder book, like a definition, like -- >> like a decoder ring that would never come no mat hour many comics you sent back. >> or the sea horses that would not work when you sprinkled them in there. a urban conspiracy theory dictionary to know what donald trump was talking about. it was a wink and a nod to the conspiracies that fox news and the trump campaign is talking about. most americans were like, what is he talking about? and they didn't really care what he was talking about. so i felt that part fell really

flat. it was good for the american people that it fell really flat because they were concerned with, as you said, the how which this president did not have good answers for. how is he going to find the 545 families, right? how is he going to fix healthcare and repeal and replace. you got the repeal part but what are you replacing it with? how are you fixing the economy? other hows had that we talked about before. how are you going to do a lot of things? he did not have a lot of answers for it. the did he? >> intentionally so. thispresident is your outrage personified in the movie "snatch," thae "snatch," there was a movie called nemesis is, he said, you know what a nemesis is, it's a righteous retribution of revenge. he is making a lot of good points of what people are angry

about, what they don't like. what they don't like about the system. what they don't like about the people in the system. what they don't like about what is happening with this country. his problem is, he is in a position of solving. he is not an animous advocate. how is a hard thing for him. >> if you did not know who was president and you popped in, plopped in -- >> especially on the pandemic. i think on the personal attacks. this is a battle of dissatisfaction. because joe biden is saying to you, hey, it's not about his family, it's not by your family, it's not about my family. but hearing criticism about your family, and making money you shouldn't and being corrupt from donald trump. no matter how true it is about joe biden, can you not be trading down. >> a good answer, if you were trump, and i were -- chris --

this way. >> that works. >> chris, really, you are going to give -- you are giving me lessons or talking to me about corruption? have you looked in the mirror? >> right. >> have you looked in the mirror? you want to talk about kids? your kids are making money off of your company cies around the world. your daughter has patents and trademarks, i don't think that you want to go there. i think you should shut up right now. >> right, but that is not who biden is. we deal with people -- >> maybe it's the -- >> i don't know that he could take the bait any better. he doesn't have that particular skill set of quick one-liners. i think trump is better at that. the question is how useful a skill that when you are a president of the united states. i will tell you this, in politics, if you were in the lead, which presumptively the former vp is -- >> do no harm. >> -- yeah, do no harm, you want

a tie. he definitely had a tie. i think the teams are decided and it's time to play the game. >> i have been saying for months now. i mean, who is not decided by now? but maybe there's people in the middle that are shaky like if i want trump, i know who he is. i don't know if i want biden, i know who he is. i don't know fiif it's undecide. >> i don't think the president hurt himself. he lied a lot, he did not express empathy about parents straighted from kids. i don't think he did anything to hurt his base. >> one thing that i thought hurt him is when he said, well that because it's in cities that are run by democrats and it's a blue state and i said, oh. that's not a good, that's not going to go over well.

what people want right now, quite frankly, most people, i'm not talking about the die hards and really far right and really far left. people want unity in the country. they are tired of fighting with each other. and looking upon each other with suspicion, about who do you support? what do you think of this, and they are tired of the lying and all the vitriol and tired of people calling them names like lib-tard and trump-tard, they are sick of it. if he does not come back and say he is the president for all people, he loses it. but he did it and i turned to my fiance and i said, people want people to be the president, most people, the president for all people, not just for those people living in red states and just for those that voted for the president. i thought he did damage last night. thought with his people, but the

people who he is trying to win over, or the people on the fence or may have been thinking of voting for him. i think that hurt him. >> look, we agree. i'm saying if you are sick of it and you want unity, you are not voting for trump anyway. >> you don't want it? don't you want unity? >> if someone wants unity. >> i want unity and sense with it. i know that people are not of a sudden going to come together, but shouldn't the president be trying? >> no, he is us and them. this is definition. you know, this is more about culture than it is about policy. in this country. >> you are right. >> and he is, us and them. >> yeah. you are right. >> everything that he talks about, is in terms of us and them. >> yeah. >> if you are a we person, and you want more we. it does not make sense for you to be for him. >> that is not what he speaks to. what do you think? had should we throw people sound? >> i think they heard enough from those two guys. they know what is going on. no, okay, i'm kidding.

let's talk about covid. i think covid is the big thing right now. people don't know if they are going to be able to put food on the table because of this. >> covid is the truth. >> covid is the truth. so, if we can talk about when biden talked about s-100 on our sheet, about the number of people dead by the end of the year and then the president's response to that, let's listen. >> 220,000 americans dead, you hear nothing else i say tonight, hear this. anyone who is responsible for not taking control, in fact, not saying i'm, i take no responsibility initially. anyone who is responsible for that many death s should not remain as president of the united states of america. we are in a situation where there are a thousand deaths a day now. a thousand deaths a day, and there's other 70,000 new cases per day.

the expectation is that we will have another 200,000 americans dead between now and the end of the year. >> he said that we are, you know, we are learning to live with it. people are learning to die with it. you folks home will have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning, that man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to touch their, out of habit where their wife or husband is, is gone. learning to live with it? come on. we are dying with it. because he is never said, he said it's dangerous. when is the last time? is it dangerous still? do you tell the people it's dangerous now? what do you say about the danger? and you say, i take no responsibility. >> i take full responsibility. it not my fault that it came here. it's china's fault and you know what? it's not joe's fault that it came here either. it's china's fault, they kept it from going in the rest of china for the most part, but they did not keep it from coming out to the world including europe and

ourselves. >> what happened? what did the president say? it will be gone by easter. warm weather, maybe inject bleach, he said he was kidding when he said this, but a lot of people thought he was serious. even today, he thinks we are in control. we are about to lose 200,000 more people. >> when i closed, he said that i should not have closed. that went on for months. nancy pelosi was saying the same thing. she was dancing on the streets in china town in san francisco. when i closed, he said it's a terrible thing. a xenophobic, and called me racist, i think. now he said i should have closed earlier. >> i didn't say either of those things. >> hm-mm. that is true, he didn't say that. he didn't say that he should not have closed it. he did talk about xenophobia but not in terms of he should not have done it. he said this this xenophobic president, blah, blah, blah,

it's all context. still, i don't think that the president had a good answer besides, you know, i did the best. i had a shut down. because we know it was not a complete shut down, a banner or whatever he wants to call it the china ban. but i thought that part as well, the president did not do well on. >> him closing down china, was the best thing that he has done to this point. and that is not a compliment. because we have needed a lot of things a lot more than what happened with the travel restrictions in china and in europe than has happened since. we have needed since, what those were is worse. those things relate and are incomplete to your point. if this election is about the response to the pandemic, the president has big, big problems. because, he did say that he takes no responsibility. >> none. >> he said tonight, i take full responsibility. no, you never have. and there are two reasons for

that. one the question at the time, to your point of context, was for what was happening in the country in terms of response. and he said i take no responsibility. you have to own it. he talks about when he shut down this country, he never shut down the country. he was against shutting it down. he didn't want states to shut it down and that is why certain red states lagged to their detriment if you want to play the us and them game. his response to being a war time president, huge mistake that the plaguing us to this days. it's still here and he did not say anything tonight. not one word about what more or better he would do to help us get through it. >> well, that's a problem though. but if you look at, i was looking for the whole, the

xenophobic thing to give you the context of what he said. but -- >> well, he didn't explain it well either, biden. >> that's what i was looking for, the exact same thing. yes, you are right. here's the defense from trump supporters that they will say, anyone who says that they would know -- this is monday morning quarterbacking -- anyone that says they will do something differently when it comes to the coronavirus, it's just monday morning quarterbacking, they would not know, that's false. people have said in real-time, what we should be doing. >> right. >> been talking about testing. what restrictions we should be placing on what protocol we should have in place. they have been saying it in real time and as everyone is saying it, this president is saying that is -- refuting it and not doing anything about it. >> because they were all wrong too. anthony fauci which no one calls him by the way. it would be like calls my

brother andy. nobody does it. if they know the person. well, anthony fauci was wrong then too. he said this is going to be gone. false. >> he didn't say. >> he said based on the current case flow, we will be fine. this is something that the current president doesn't get, he is right not to get it. if you are going to play politics pure and simple. what i am about to say is lost on everybody that wants to vote for him because they are sick of the subtlety. when fauci said that you did not need masks, he was wrong, but then he said he did and he was right. people feel like it's double speak. but fauci realized it was not something that you just got by contact and there was a scarcity with masks and it was better off to not mess with them, leave them for people who need the

most. the president is right to question that, it looks weak. but long after fauci and all the others knew it was going to be bad -- >> and also, he wanted to save the masks for front line workers. >> as soon as you have to explain it, you lose them. >> i will give you that. >> and what the president has to face on the same score. he is right, looks bad for fauci and the other people. but we all know the situations change and we know he knew it changed too because he told bob woodward on tape. he was telling him things he was telling us was not true at the same time, and that's his problem. >> i know what you are going to say as i was thinking about it. he said that new york city is a ghost town. i try to get a cab the other day, and it was not for the reasons you are going to say, so stop it. >> i was going to say it. >> i knew what you were going to say. i couldn't. every cab that went by had somebody be in it. we tried, went to go to dinner, tables were full. people were out having dinner. people are shopping in new york

city. is it the same new york as it was before? no, no, but no city is. and new york city is thriving right now, it's humming along. has new york city been hurt? had yes, every city in the country has been as well. for him to say and the city of of love so. he doesn't love the city so. he moved to florida because new yorkers didn't even vote for him, he lost his hometown. so for him to say new york was a ghost town, maybe joe biden is not here and doesn't know. but new york city, people, not a ghost town. doing a-okay. >> but, you know what? that works too. fear sells. things are bad in the you know can, things are bad in new york. my brother will tell you himself. he is going to have big budget problems for years. one of the things that gets too in the weeds too fast is, and joe biden actually gave this

answer better than any other answer. in terms of policy. in terms of contacting and connecting with people in pain, it shows who he is. the states are dying and the federal government doesn't want to give them money to balance their budget. >> can we play sound on that? let's play some sound. >> yeah. >> so let's if we can, play s-106 and s-107. >> i love code, code, code. >> all he does is talk about shutdowns. forget about him, his democrat governors, cuomo in new york, you look at what is going on in california, you look at pennsylvania. north carolina, democrats, democrats all. they are shut down so tight and they are dying. they are dying. and he supports all these people. all he talks about is shutdowns. no, we are not going to shutdown and we have to open our schools. and it's like, as an example, i have a young son, he also tested positive. by the time i spoke to the

doctor the second time, he was fine. it just went away. >> i don't look at this in terms of the way he does. blue states and red states. they are all the united states. and look at the states that are having such a spike in the coronavirus. they are the red states. they are the states in the midwest. they are the states in the upper midwest. that's where the spike is occurring significantly but they are all americans, they are all americans and what we have to say is wear the macks, number one, and make sure that we get the help that the businesses need that the money has been passed to do that. its been out there since the beginning of the summer and nothing has happened. >> listen, as i said, everyone is hurting. but, and -- listen, who doesn't want everything opened back up. schools and the economy, and every business. but we have to do it and we have to be safe about it and whoever is the president can't only look out for red states if they are a republican president or blue

states in they are a democrat president. they have to look out for all states, meaning all citizens regardless of their political affiliation. >> it's unsatisfying for people to hear answers about hey, it's not as bad as it seems. look, that is politics. the president wants to say joe biden is the politician an. he was every bit the politician on that stage tonight as joe biden. he has all of the skills, plus and minus that people ascribe to politicians. here's the fatal flaw. on this issue of pandemic. we have never seen a crisis handled like this one, which is to say that the person in charge denied we were in crisis. the president said that he closed down the whole economy and that is what helped and he said, no, we are not going shut down. i'm anti-shut down. he cannot have it both ways because he is in charge. all of the arguments and double speak work well when you are an insurgent, when you are on the outside, when you are criticizing, when you are us. but when you are in charge, you

have to live by what you did and did not do. and there's no question that we are still suffering in ways that other countries didn't for one simple reason. lack of adjustment and lack o aggression toward the problem. >> i would not change anything, i would not change anything and you know -- >> that's the same thing as the no responsibility thing. that's who he is. you will take it as strength. i don't see arrogance as strength, i see it as living in denial of your own weakness, when you have the cross section of arrogance and weakness that he has, you have yourself a problem. on this issue, if this election is decided by this issue, he is in real trouble. now the open question is obvious. will it be about that? i don't know. >> and if it's decided on the facts he is also in trouble. and you have facts to talk about. >> good segue. >> daniel deale will join us no. overall truthfulness on both

sides? >> we have a president running for re-electioner on a platform of serial dishonesty. the trump we got this time was more dishonest and his rallies are more dishonest. it's a bombardment, his first sentence was a lie. the biggest piece is the repeated insistance that that the pandemic is going away, and we are rounding a corner. it's getting worse and worse, and he is saying it's about to vanish. now, i will add that biden was far from perfect. he had false claims and misleading claims and claims lacking in contech, so he is not ab solved for any of it.

apples and oranges, no comparison in the frequency and magnitude of the false claims from the two candidates. >> let's play a little sound as an example. i think one of the big issues in terms of testing this president on what he has done, and has not done. we will start with immigration. and the president's position on the 500 plus children who were separated from their families those family members were sent back and now, they are having trouble finding them. here. >> catch and release is a disaster. a you mutterer and rapist would come in, we take their name and release them in our country and then you say they come back. less than 1% of the people come back. we have to send i.c.e. out and border patrol to find them. we say, come back in two, three

years and we will give you a court case, you need perry mason. we will give you a court case. when you say come back, they don't come back, joe, they never come back. only the really, i hate to say this, but those with the lowest iq, they might come back. >> first fact check, he doesn't hate to say something. just as an aside, many people said, well the president was much differently behaved tonight. you know, he was much more cogent and calmer than he was. yeah, because it's all intentional my brothers and sisters. of course he could be like this all the time if he wants to. all the bombast and cruelty and personal slights. it's not style. it's not that he does not get politics, this is who he wants to be. when he wants to be somebody else, he can be. he does what suits him in the moment. back to the facts. where does that stand in terps of catch and release?

>> so, that claim is wrong. trump has been claiming for years now that basically nobody shows up for their immigration court hearings after their release pending a hearing. in fact, as of the latest data we have for 2018, it was 25% of cases were decided with the person not present to hear the decision. that means that 75% were in court to hear the decision. you can say 25% absent is too. but that's not what the president said, he said it's 99% absent and that's not true. >> let's score both sides. biggest miss by biden when it comes to the facts? >> well, i think it was his claim about fracking. he accused trump of lying for saying that he opposed fracking. he said, i never said i opposed fracking. although biden's written campaign policy is not a ban on fracking, it's a ban specifically on new leases for

oil and gas on public lands only. he did say during the democratic primary in 2019 and early 2020, that he was generally opposed to fracking. i had think we have a clip of what he said to our dana bash in 2019, is that right? >> yes. >> we don't have the clip. >> we don't, i'm sorry. i will read it to you. you can read it to me. you have a nicer voice. >> thank you, mr. vice president, to clarify, would there be any place for coal ands fossil fuels and fracking -- he said no, they would be eliminated, any fossil fuel. he did strongly suggest that he was generally anti-fracking forcing his campaign to come out and clarify over and over, that he is not actually proposing a full ban. >> look, it's on him to explain his answers, clearly, fully and consistently. and if he doesn't, it will be held against him. thank you daniel dale, you have

a heck of a job on your hands when it comes to fact checki ii but you know what? nothing matters more. you will be back with us later. more analysis of what worked and where does it leave us. next. are you ready? ♪

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♪ oh, what a relief it is! so fast! in mass incarceration of black and brown communities. the shame is on all of us. i'm working to right the wrongs of injustice. ending cash bail. ending the war on drugs. decriminalizing sex work, and passing major sentencing reform legislation. but until we reimagine community safety and end police brutality, we must keep working to reform our racist criminal justice system that's shameful to us all.

we are about to go in to a dark winter. a dark winter. and he has no clear plan and there's no prospect that there's going to be a vaccine available for the majority of the american people before the middle of next year. >> president trump your reaction he said that you have no plan. >> i don't think that we will have a dark winter at all. >> well, lots of big moment, including that one of course. discussed with the last presidential debate, get thoughts from really smart people, three of the smartest people i know. hello, one and all. good evening and good morning to all of you. so, let me just say this. mark i know that is part of the reason you think biden did well because of his honesty with the coronavirus. you think the president was not

so honest when it comes to that. but at least, i hear people saying the president was trying to be somewhat positive about the time we are going in to. you are not buying that? >> no, not at all. i mean, look the fact of the matter was, with the clip we showed right there, it was a closing argument for joe biden. i don't know what else also he has to say at this point. we are in a very, very bad point with the coronavirus, what scares me, don and i think it probably scares everyone else on the panel and yourself and chris and just about everyone who has any kind of sense is that, we are kind of giveing up. there are had folks who are just buy ing in to the idea, open it up full blown, don't worry bit. and there was an interesting moment, joe biden had a lot of interesting moments. k when he looked in the camera, and he said, hey, teachers, out there. don't worry about it, only x amount of you are going to die. that was compelling.

>> se, i have a note that says, why are we giving him so much credit for not behaving like a animal. he was forced to behave, if he did not calm down a bit, he was gooding to lose it. what do you think about it? >> yeah, i think we need to be careful with the way we describe trump's debate performance. you know, by our own daniel dale standards he lied more in this debate performance than in the quote unquote crazy debate and the bar is so low that it's on the floor. so i get why we talk about, well, he was better this this time. but that bar is so incredibly low. we do a disservice when we talk about it in those terms. this was a terrible debate for the president of the united states to get on a national stage and tell millions americans that covid ain't so bad. and it's going to be gone soon and winter will be fine. to look in the camera, and

express absolutely zero compassion for kids separated from families. i could go on and on. it was a terrible debate performance and very, very sad for our country. so, i do think our language around his performance matters. >> at least he was thinking though, and i'm doing what se said, i should not do, right? but at least he was was thinking well, you remember the low iq part, i mean i gasped and i was like, oh, my gosh. but he did say, maybe i should not say this, but he did say it out loud. >> he did say it out loud. and the president has been saying terrible racist things out loud, for many, many years. particularly over these last many months. i think he did well in the sense that he did advance the argument about joe biden being in washington all of these years and not being able to get

anything done. particularly on criminal justice and particularly on immigration reform. so, those moments were good. joe biden, you are just on po politici politician, you are all talk and no action. but he turned it around. and he said, you are being a phony by looking in the camera and talking to americans directly. so i thought that backfired on him. joe biden had good one--liners about the idea that he does not want to shut down the economy. he wants to shut down the virus. i thought that was a good. >> you think he was clear enough on that though. >> listen -- you know, joe biden is not the clearest talker and neither is donald trump and he got himself tired down the stretch. and he got in trouble with his

answer on fossil fuels and the oil industry. they will have to do clean up on that, and i think they are already doing that at this point. i think democrats went in to tonight, seeing that these polls were tightening. and with that, the debate will continue on the trend of tightening polls on the battleground states. >> let's continue on, and if we have time, we will talk about the fossil fuels. he has the same reframe, that he is the least racist president, and the person looking thought the room saying, i can't say it. he said the same thing in 2015. for the undecided, does this line help or hurt him, listen in and we will discuss. >> as far as my relationships with all people. i think i have great relationships with all people. i am the least racist person in

this room. >> are you racist? >> i'm the least racist person that you have ever met. i am the least racist person. >> are you bigotted in any way? >> i don't think so. >> islam aphobic? >> i don't think so. >> i want to ask, does that, for white folks who are out there watching that, do they believe it? mark? se? mark, go first. >> as a white person, let me say that i'm probably the least racist person watching tonight. you know, you know what is interesting. no, no, i can do think -- >> well done, mark. >> i do think it's important though. if you look at his debate performance tonight in how he answered questions. he clearly did not prepare at

all for this. if you look at how joe biden and how he answered questions, he totally prepared. he knew what to say and to keep it short and not say racist things. that was not the only racist thing he said. he talked about kids coming back in. i should not really say this, but folks that come back across the border are stupid. >> or come back to court and show up for court hearing. is the low iq. >> right, right. right, low iq, and this is what he also said too, don, when he talked the hbcus, the historically black colleges and universities, i liked them. i thought they liked me. he was not talking in a way that was one-on-one with a person. he was describing them as all the college administrators as just one big block. it was very, very telling. >> what to you think, se, did you buy it? what do you think when he says i'm the least racist person

line? >> it's absurd, it's an absurd claim, he has definitely convinced his followers that that is true. they can really justify a lot of both his policies and rhetoric. and i think they believe he is not coming from a racist place. but i think anyone looking at this honestly over not just the years that he has been president, but his lifetime of doing racism, whether it's birtherism or bigotry, i think anybody would have to acknowledge no, a lot of what you have done and said has not just been on dog whistle, but you know, a follg horn to racis. he has courted white supremacists and i'm looking at

white suburban women voters i think they may end up deciding the next president. and to do them, to us, we hear and see the racism loud and clear. it is not coded. it is not a dog whistle. and i think that has been part of what has turned so many of us off from trump and the republican party. >> hm-mm. so, you said clean up on aisle one and se was shaking her head in agreement. when we were talking about fossil fuels and oil and gas jobs. listen to this. >> would he close down -- would you closes to s down the -- >> i would transition from the oil industry, yes. >> that is a big statement. >> it is a big statement. i would stop. because the oil industry pollutes significantly. >> oh, i see, that's a big statement. >> let me finish a statement, it has to be replaced by renewable energy over time, over time.

and i would stop giving to the oil industry, i would stop giving them federal s ubsidies, he will not give subsidies to solar and wind. >> we actually do give it to solar and wind. that's the biggest statement in terms of business. basically what he is saying he is going to destroy the oil industry. will you remember that texas, will you remember that pennsylvania, oklahoma? >> >> the point is, look, we have to move toward a net zero emissi emissions. first place to do that by the year 2035 is an energy reduction by 2050 totally. >> so, listen, nia, he is not off. that's a democratic policy. rye? i think democrats say that. but was that the right time to say it, with the president saying are you listening, texas,

are youing pennsylvania? are you listening oklahoma? i think that was effective. >> donald trump knew that was a moment and you see joe biden saying now, well he really meant that he wants to end subsidies in the states you mentioned, texas, pennsylvania, and oklahoma, and most of all, i don't think that joe biden is going to win texas, but the down ballot people in texas and other states like oklahoma, they are already having to distance themselves from this statement that he made. so that was a flub, it was down the stretch, he with know joe biden gets tired. this is where you have to play error free ball on something so big. particularly in the battleground states that he is trying win down the stretch. >> se, i know you want to weigh in on this. >> well, yeah, it was just messy. and what is unfortunate is joe biden has answered this question before and he has done it in a much neater way. he has talked about training people out of, you know, certain

manufacturing jobs and in to new kinds of jobs. he has good answers for this. yeah, that was a very messy response that opened a door that you know, trump walked right through. and i can see, i could see some, i could feel some nervous campaign aides sort of, you know, hearts a flutter back stage. and in their offices when he said that. >> well, that's it. mark you don't get to talk about this one this time. the ladies have spoken. >> the least racist person does -- >> he is just the white guy, he doesn't matter. >> you don't get to explain right now. good to see you all, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thanks, don. >> we are just getting started here, the second coverage of the final trump biden show down continues with another power trio, plus, you know, chris and me.

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this is not about -- there's a reason why he is bringing up all this mularkey. there's a reason for it, he doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. it's not about your family and my family, it's about your family. your family is hurting badly. if you are a middle class family, you are getting hurt badly right now. you are sitting at the kitchen table and you saying can we pay the mortgage? who is going to tell her she can't go back to community college? >> that's a political statement. let's get off the china thing and he looks, the family around the table. just a typical politician --

>> let's talk about north korea. >> i'm not a politician, that's why i got elected. let's get off the subject of china and let's talk about sitting around the table. you can do better than that, joe. >> it's called about empathy. let's talk about the audit with your taxes that you cannot give -- i used to practice that kind of law, you can put it out right now if you want to. and in fact, the president as you will remember during the election said to me originally that he thinks he is under audit because he is such is a strong christian. let's discuss the impact of the moments in what was a better debate for the president, and argue ably for joe biden as well. we have karen finney, anthony scaramucci and mike shields and not to put mike and karen under pressure. you have catching up to do, because mooch may have had the line of the night, he tweeted out, tomorrow starts the

scaramucci of the race, the last 11 days. that was a very, very good line. >> giving people a heads up. >> well with done, anthony. and for that, i reward you with first go. what was your take on what mattered most tonight? >> well, i mean, no change is what mattered most. i thought the president did well, you know, you know, i always try to offer a balanced commentary on him. he was coherent, he was calmer. he did a lot of lying, he is always going to do a lot of lying. he did not out match vice president biden and he did not sound as presidential as vice president biden. and if you look at the polls, i don't think the polls are going to change because of the debate and if you believe the polls in 11 days or a scaramucci the vice president will be the president elect of the united states. >> karen, hypocrisy aside,

nobody distracts from the main issue as well as the president does. he was coming after joe biden about his son and he knew what he was saying and he knew why he was doing it. do you think he was effective? do you think he hurt your candidate? >> i don't think the hits landed. i have to say, kristin welker, black girl magic, did a fantastic job, let's get that on the table. >> the president said a that by the way. i saw him mouthing to her, good job, thank you. >> that tells you that he knew he to be on good behavior. and that attacking a black woman would not be a good look. i wrote for the daily beast that it was a thing -- tone does matter. he still lied, but it does matter that he on the face of it had a better performance. i agree with anthony, i don't

think it changes the dynamics of the race and i don't think that particular hit landed very well. it's convoluded if you have not been following it and it's completely false and untrue. it's not a good look to be attacking people's children. i don't think that the voters who are, you know, still on the fence want to hear that kind of stuff. they wanted to hear a second term agenda and they did not get that before we go to sound about -- i am hearing from a lot of guys, who support the president, men and women, frankly. that this is who we needed him to be, tonight. mike? >> oh, i'm sorry. i thought you were going to somethi something. yeah, look. that sound you hear is republicans, especially operatives like me, cheering across the country because this is what we need a president to do, that will help republicans up and down the ticket. you know, on the -- on the issues, we have an advantage,

significantly, on issues like economy, on energy, policy, and we want the president just to articulate what his position is, clearly. so that, the voters will hear where he stands because, once they get that from him, we do better. and i thought he did a great job, tonight, of actually articulating where he was on the economy. he nailed joe biden on things like energy policy and taxes. and so, for that, alone, it is a huge win for republicans. >> anthony, none of those issues matter, though, if we can't get past the pandemic. and this made it very clear, i thought, subject to what mike thinks of course, is he could never answer the question of how? tonight. no blank. the question is how do we get the schools open? how do we get businesses better? how do we avoid shutting down? he didn't have it. do the other issues matter, if you don't sell voters on that first one? >> so, i believe they are. listen. you know, i'm a fellow republican. i disagree with the president. i don't want him to get a second

term because i don't think he's fit to be president. and i think the reason he's not fit to be president is the way he's handled the pandemic. he's lied about the science. he's politicized the mask using. he has done things that no other person would do, with that data or that group of experts. and as a result of which, he destroyed the economy. and so, it's those reasons. mike knows this. okay? he's not competent at managing the executive branch of the united states. and that's why we rolled a health care crisis into a very steep economic recession. and i predict that he'll be voted out of office. >> karen, what you have to deal with is, look, nobody could have done better on the pandemic. nobody saw it coming. trump did what he could. it's largely state stuff. you. you hate oil. and for all the dreams of green, you can't kill the oil industry and it's what joe biden said, tonight. >> no, that's -- that's very fair. and i did think that was the one moment where it felt like, you know, are we making policy that

we meant to be making? but, you know, that being said, i think if you, coming into this debate, if you're watching this debate. i think, again, you maybe wanted to hear a second-term agenda from trump. biden was very effective in making the point that this is about character. and he had a number of moments where he talked about character. obviously, he was empathetic, as you mentioned coming into the segment. and again, just what i am seeing and hearing from people who are still on the fence. talking, frankly, to some of those white, college-educated, suburban women, i don't think joe biden's policy on oil is quite going to be -- and what he said tonight -- is going to be the thing that changes the dynamics for donald trump. and you did see -- look. that doesn't mean that there's not going to be an ad, i'm sure, being cut as we speak against biden. it's something they will have to contend with for the next 11 days. but again, in terms of the dynamics of the race, i do think

tonight was about character more than anything else. >> mike, the idea of listening to the issues. you left covid out. and my -- my question is, is it a concern for you that the president, at one point, had a good, laundry list of the externalities, the collateral damage, in this country right now because of covid. mental illness. abuse of substances. people not get elective procedures. a lot of illnesses not getting the tending needed. and a set of problems that are mounting because of not dealing with the pandemic well enough. he's right about the laundry list. are you worried that, especially suburban voters, college-educated voters, may carry those concerns into the ballot against him? >> now, look. i -- i thought this was his best defense of his covid policy. there is a legitimate debate about shutting down or opening up, when it comes to schools,

when it comes to the economy. every governor across the country is wrestling with this. every state legislature. it's a debate that's roiling the country. and i have not seen as good of an argument on the other side of it. he put joe biden in the position of being the shutdown guy. and that was very successful because there are plenty of americans, regardless of their party, that want a more balanced approach to how it is that we tackle covid, and the economy, at the same time. the president's brand is the economy. it came across in the polling from the debate tonight. and he managed to make covid into an economic success for him tonight. >> i hear you about the economy. we are out of time. i appreciate it. we're going to have plenty of time for conversation, going forward. but i will tell you this. we all know it's disingenuous to separate the two. if you don't deal with the pandemic, you can't deal with the economy. and the reason we had to shut down. it was interesting to hear the

president, tonight, say, on one hand, listen. we shut down the biggest economy in the world because we had to, to fight the virus. and then, he said, later on, we'll never shut down. can't have it both ways. if people take it that way and if the opponent frames it that way. big ifs. karen finney, thank you. and shame on me. i'm always shy to talk about the moderators but you were right. we have to take moments where we see things thatwe we're not use to seeing and praise them, as praise is due. as is tonight. anthony scaramucci. mike shields. and you look good with the glasses, be honest. what do you say we keep this coverage going? we got more for you, next. the virus is surging...

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well, welcome back. >> you trying to steal my lines.

what does it say right there? >> it wasn't me. >> who was it? i can't hear anything. it's not working. >> go on. >> no, no. i didn't say it wasn't me. but, go ahead. >> see? i have to save him, all the time. >> from myself. >> this is our special, post-debate coverage here on cnn. the final one of 2020. hello, i'm don lemon. and you know that guy, right there. what's your name, again? >> huh? franklin. abraham lincoln. >> that's abe lincoln, right there. >> i never said i'm abraham lincoln. >> oh, really? is that what you take offense to? >> i can't believe you said i said i'm abraham lincoln. i never said that. >> well, you said you've done more possibly than abraham lincoln. >> stick to your own box. don't eyeball me. this isn't the "brady bunch." >> here's a story. what a night, though, seriously. i mean, all -- all in all, considering. we had the debate that wasn't a

debate. it was just a yell fest. and then, we had the debate that wasn't. and then, turned into two town halls, competing. and then, we had this, tonight. and so, actually, i thought we got some information out of it, tonight. i like the format. i thought it was good. the muting the mics. the whatever. they didn't have to do much of that. i think it kept trump in check, definitely. and it offered people a chance to hear from both sides. no? >> absolutely. and brava to the moderator, kirsten well k kristen welker. >> i don't think she did a good job. >> why is that? >> i thought she did a great job. >> oh. it would have been shocking if we disagreed. and also, i had karen finney say in the last block that it does matter. respect and remembrances to gwen eiffel. >> i think she -- for me, and this is all positive, don't take

it the wrong way when you write about it. she is a woman of color. a black woman. she is african-american and native american. and how much more american do you get than being native american and whatever else there is, right? >> uh-huh. >> so i -- very proud of her. i don't know if she is watching. kristen, if you are watching or if anybody in her family, i thought she did a great job. >> how much more disadvantaged an american do you get than african-american and native american? you know, i mean, it's two representative samples of things that haven't been done right by this country. but she did a good job, tonight, and that is a really hard job. and i was wrong not to say it sooner. usually, i don't want to talk about the moderator. but you should remember it when it matters and this was one of those times. now, couple other things i think people got introduced to tonight. third time was a charm, in terms of these debates. and when analyzing that in terms of the president, people know who joe biden is. this president, tonight, showed

you something very, very important and that i hope resonates. he was this way, tonight, because he wanted to be. the bombast, the cruelty, the interrupting, the nonsensical statements, that's because he wants to be that way. it's not that it's his style. it's not that he doesn't know. it's what he chooses to be, in a moment. tonight, he was more poised because that's what they told him he needed to be, don. >> okay. okay. the second time, you were right. not that he wanted to be that. he had to be. right? the other thing, i think that -- that's just who he is. i think, tonight, he had to be this. or he would've lost. >> but that means, those other occasions, he chooses not to be. >> yeah. >> he could always be civil. he could always wait for you to finish. >> but he doesn't. >> he doesn't. why? because he knows it works better for him, the other way. >> but -- but i also think when -- when you're just talking

to him and he is unguarded, he shows you who he is. you know, when you're sitting down in an interview and you ask him if he's racist, he knows -- i am the least racist -- well, i played it in the last hour. i am the least racist person. that is his refrain. that's his go-to when it comes to racism. not an introspective, you know, i'm sure, and he said he can't do that for his base, right? that i may have some unconscious bias. all americans do and we all need to work on that. >> you've never heard him admit a weakness. >> no, never. and even when he says the we're the best. do you remember when someone asked him about testing negative? and he said i tested positive -- >> for not having it. >> -- positively negative. >> yeah. he can't say bad things about himself. he'd never cut it as a catholic. he can't say anything bad about himself.

he's got absolutely no shame in his game. >> well, he sure held that bible up. remember, the bible he held up and you're like, wait, what side is that bible? >> he needs -- he needs to open it. but, you know, what was interesting is he did what he needed to do, tonight. what will it mean, ultimately? you and i are of the same school of thought on this. yes, a lot of people make their decision in the last two weeks of an election. i don't think this election. >> no. >> i think we know who is on which side and now, it's which side wants it more? >> and think about this. you don't have to imagine it. this is the truth. this is what's happening to millions and millions of people in this country. tonight's debate didn't matter because they have -- they have already cast their votes. >> right. >> the ballots are already in. so, the people, you know, the people who needed convincing or where they needed to perform really well for, that was a shrinking -- it's a shrinking pie, right? >> it is small. though, against my own point, there are people who could have watched tonight and said, you know what? i wasn't going to vote for biden but.

or i wasn't going to vote for trump but. so it was good for them to come out strong. presumptively, you say all you want is a tie. i don't think that changed much, tonight. but it was, because you got such a good sample representative of both men, you got the contrast as well. and i think that will be helpful to both their causes. >> you know what's interesting. this is a little bit off but not really off topic. i was talking to someone, the other day, and they were talking about joe biden. they said, you know, well, you know, sometimes he has to think about. and i said, you know he's like -- he has -- he overcame a stutter. and then, the person had no idea. and i couldn't imagine, at this point in time, as joe biden's been on the stage for as long as he's been on the stage and he's been running now for, what, about two years or a year and a half or so. that someone would not have that information and think something otherwise about joe biden.

they don't realize it. yes, he's overcome a stutter but he still has things that go along with that. >> he still stutters. he doesn't get suck the way sge the way some stutterers do. this is a society based on shame, all too often. you know, on judgment, all too often. and there is stigma attached to it. >> but it's, also, to part of what's been going on in the last country for the last seven or eight months. that people have been trying to figure out what do with their lives. trying to figure out how to feed their families. trying to figure out how they are going to stretch the meals and stretch the money that's not coming in. and i think it's -- it's been hard for many people to pay attention because, maybe, if things were going okay and you had the luxury of having the job that you had or the income that you had coming in. or not a relative who was sick or dying, that you may have been able to pay attention. usually, people don't pay attention till the end.

but i found it fascinating that this person who was extremely informed had -- had no idea. looked at me and said what are you talking about? i said he's a stutterer. he overcame a stutter. >> not you, so much. you are actually pretty good at this. i have a tendency to assume much more intensity of interest about this stuff. most people are passive when it comes to their politics. this is an unusually intense period. they don't watch us 24/7. some do. they watch you more. but most don't do that. you know what i thought was interesting tonight? >> what? >> a juxtaposition between the president being able to identify all the different tolls that the pandemic is putting on people's lives, to the point you were just making. increase in abusive behavior, domestic abuse, abuse of substances, mental health problems, different health problems that aren't being attended to because of the strain on the health care

system. and yet, he doesn't -- >> alcoholism, addiction. >> sure. substance abuse is up, and understandably so. but, he does not make a connection to that and the need for him to get off his ass and get more aggressive in taking on this pandemic. and it was tied up with a bow for me to what we started off with tonight. it came up in the debate tonight. and of all the things biden accused trump of, this is what he reacted to most indignantly. >> nobody has done more for the black community than donald trump. and if you look, with the exception of abraham lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of abraham lincoln, nobody has done what i've done. >> abraham lincoln is one of the most racist presidents we've had in modern history. he pours fuel on every single racist fire. every single one.

started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he's going to get rid of those mexican rapists. he's banned muslims because they're muslims. he has moved around and made everything worse, across the board. he says to -- about the poor boys, last time we were on stage here, he said i tell them to stand down and stand ready. come on. this guy is a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn. >> he made a reference to abraham lincoln. where did that come in? >> you said you're abraham lincoln. >> no. no. i said, not since abraham lincoln, has anybody done what i've done for the black community. i didn't say i'm abraham lincoln. i said, not since abraham lincoln has anybody done what i've done for the black community. >> look at captain accuracy over here, all of a sudden. >> no one has done, for the blacks. >> with the possible exception of abraham lincoln. imagine saying --

>> joe biden's face when he says that. you got -- joe biden does this. say, what? >> can you imagine? it's like don lemon saying, maybe, with the exception of martin luther king. possibly. nobody has communicated, as an african-american, the way i have. and, you know, he can -- he can say that. you know, and then he gets indignant. i never said i was abraham lincoln. of all the things he lies about and gets called out about, this is the one he needed to correct. >> you know, everybody does that. what? has anyone ever told him -- seriously. shouldn't someone in his campaign say you need to stop? like, don't do that. >> they only tell him more. you know, we've heard all these stories about people who try to keep him on the right track. look. i have, again, you know, this weird time we're living on,

paradoxically, while i am demonized, very often, by this president, specifically. i have never had better access to a white house than i have to this one, in terms of understanding what's going on around him, from people who know him well. >> because they call you and they tell you. >> and they do not push him. he doesn't want to hear it. he doesn't trust them. and he believes his gut is better. and he then listens to people who are telling him he is doing well. he is focused, 100%, right now, on the people who are telling him we're doing better in florida in early voting than we were doing last time. you're going -- you're going to do well. arizona, we're a little worried about. but here, in north carolina, this is going to lead us to pennsylvania. that's all he hears and the messaging they tell him goes with it is all he'll follow, today. >> well, it's so easily provable about you know when he says he's done more for african-americans. you know, it's just -- it's ridiculous because when you think about it, he likes to say

you know joe biden and barack obama didn't do anything. if you look at, actually, what is in the affordable care act and pre-existing conditions. all you have to do is compare that to what's happening now with the pandemic. and look at the people who are contracting it and dying -- dying or coming in contact with this disease. and dying proportionately higher than other people. it is african-americans, it's minorities, and people who are on the front lines. people who don't have access, as much access, to the health care system. that is certainly something that is a positive for african-americans. and if you actually look at the unemployment rate, the trajectory of the unemployment rate, up or down, the longest decline in unemployment was under president barack obama. this president simply kept -- kept it on track. for him to say that, i think that's why african-americans get so annoyed when he says things like that because we know the truth. he is not pulling the wool over our eyes. we know what happened under the last administration, who happened to come out -- listen. under a republican president,

pulled us out of the -- the biggest recession since the great recession, since the depression. and then, to have that sort of job growth and then the rate go down. and then, you want to take away something, an accomplishment, of the first black person who looks like me or every other black person around the country. >> desperately, he wants to. he wants to take obama down, desperately. >> but we're not going to buy it because we know the truth. and you can sell that to your sycophants but you can't sell that. >> we'll see what happens with african-american men, specifically. with african-american women over 45, which is a big base for the democrats. i don't know how much purchase he'll get there. >> i think that's -- listen. i am not buying that. >> you don't buy it, either. you think it's talk but that, at the polls, they won't do it. >> listen. there -- no, no, there are outliers everywhere. we're looking at like three -- you know, two rappers who are

gazilli gazillionai gazillionaires, right? a lot of those wives are going to sit down and say are you out of your damn mind? boy, if you go and vote for -- don't come in this house because i'm going to disown you. you're not doing this. i don't believe it. i'm sure there are going to be some bamboozled who may go out and do that. but for the most part, it is not gonna happen. ain't gonna happen. sorry. it's a good story. you know, for people to talk about on tv, like me and you. but, in the real world, in the real world, it ain't happening. >> well, i'll tell you what will be interesting to me. >> and let me just say one other thing. >> okay. >> before -- all those people that you hear, on all of those channels. the conservative people and all of them. like, i'll find out.

you know what that is? you know what that is? >> what is it? >> that is the shortest line to the front. okay? those are people who are sitting there on fox news and everybody else and, oh, donald trump has done this. they don't believe that, themselves. they're there because it is the shortest line to the front and it's a paycheck. okay? and they probably could not make it on some other channel, that -- where people live in reality and people live in facts. so, they say, well, guess what? i'm going to go over here because they need a black person who's going to say what the conservatives want, and who's going to give me a paycheck and have me on their show. and i'm going to be -- i'm going to be famous and people are going to know who i am. that is exactly what that is, even if they are not conscious of it. because if they really, really sat down and looked in the mirror, they would see that they are being used. >> well, 11 days. anthony scaramucci with the line of the night. he called it. we're in the last scaramucci of the race. remember, he lasted 11 days as

comes g coms guy at the white house. we're going to see. and again, i know that people always tell you this election matters the most. >> this one does. >> this is an unusually definitional election because the propositions just about, look, the idea of whether or not this country really is going to suffer each other's differences for the sake of diversity or not. and see each other as us and them and have policy along those lines. the president made it very clear to you, tonight, he is not a uniter. he doesn't believe it. he wants to punish states that are run by democrats. he named my brother, by name. he talks about red and blue and us and them and muslims and christians and brown and white. that's what he does. and we'll see what wins. >> and very fine people on both sides. and, you know, let's jail the central park five and president barack obama was not born in this country. and what do you have to lose?

and where is my african-american? and all kinds of things. and that's why i say if you want to be bamboozled. >> led astray? run amok? >> if you want to believe that a person who did and said all of these things who is trying to take away your health care, the pre-existing conditions, all those things. if you believe that, then i got a bridge to sell ya. >> you've been had. >> or i'm going to get the license plate of the turnip truck that you just fell off, so that i can report them. >> bamboozled. led astray. run amok. it's from malcolm x. >> fooled. crazy. >> you've been had. you been took. led astray. run amok. best i can do. vis-a-vis denzel washington. >> i will tell you something, after this, that you will be happy that i didn't say it. okay. >> go ahead. >> and that's a fact. and here is a fact checker in

chief, daniel dale, to get chris cuomo out of trouble. he's back with us. hey, daniel. how you doing? are you hoarse yet? do you have laryngitis from all of this? >> no, i'm good to talk to you for at least like two or three more minutes. >> here's something that is -- that is really serious. an awful story that i reported earlier this week. i think it was last night that we reported this. and in the midst of all of this that we are finding out that there were these -- there were these 545 migrant children who still aren't returned or reunited with their families. the president dodged the question. suggested that they weren't actually brought over by their parents. and then, the moderator had to keep asking him. how are you going to reunite these families? here it is. check this out. >> these 500-plus kids came with parents. they separated them at the border to make it a disincentive to come, to begin with. real tough. we're really strong. and, guess what? they cannot -- it's not --

coyotes didn't bring them over. their parents were with them. they got separated from their parents. and it makes us a laughing stock and violates every notion of who we are, as a nation. >> let me ask you a follow-up question. >> kristen, they did it. we changed the policy. they did it. who built the cages, joe? who built the cages, joe? >> let's talk about what we're talking about. what happened? parents were -- the kids were ripped from their arms and separated. and now, they cannot find over 500 sets of those parents and those kids are alone. nowhere to go. nowhere to go. it's criminal. it's criminal. >> okay, daniel. just the facts. >> so, biden was right here and trump was wrong. these particular children were not brought to the united states by so-called coyotes, who are people who are paid by parents -- or paid by people in other countries to illegally

bring others across the border. biden was right. these children were brought by their parents. they were separated. and now, the parents and children remain separated. they can't find the parents. now, there are -- trump also claimed, during the debate, that the administration is working hard to find these parents. experts say that's not actually true. that they've been very reluctant to hand over information about the situation. now, the part of this that was true, as trump said, you know, there were cages built under the obama administration. in a very different situation, during influx of undocument -- unaccompanied minors, they did build these facilities with chain-link fences. you can call them cages. to house some of these young people. but trump's suggestion, elsewhere in this debate, that he simply inherited the separation policy. said they did it, we just took it and changed it. is wrong. it happened, occasionally, under obama. under specific circumstances, like parents charged with serious crimes. trump's administration is the one that made it routine. they implemented a routine policy of routinely separating

parents and children at the border. and so, it's very much apples and originanges. trump's suggestion is just not right. >> he likes to say you built the cages but it doesn't explain the difference between what is going on now. they were willfully or doing it systematically, separating children from their parents. and the evidence of it, if one plus one equals two, well, this now equals 545 families they cannot find -- parents they cannot find families for. so, listen. daniel, trump also tried to hit biden with russia. he claimed biden received $3.5 million from russia and that it's meddling to defeat him. and then, biden hit back. listen to this. >> joe got three and a half million dollars from russia. and it came through putin because he was very friendly with the former mayor of moscow. and it was the mayor of moscow's wife. and you got three and a half million dollars. >> i have not taken a penny from any foreign source, ever, in my life.

we learned that this president paid 50 times the tax in china, has a secret bank account with china, does business in china. and, in fact, is talking about me taking money? i have not taken a single penny from any country, whatsoever, ever. >> so what's the truth about biden and russia? >> so, don, this is an example of what i think of as trump-flation. he takes a claim and inflates it beyond the initial allegation. so the initial allegation, denied by hunter biden, this allegation made by senate republicans, is that hunter biden, joe biden's son, received 3.5 million in a business/consulting deal with the wife of the late mayor of moscow. hunter biden said he didn't get this money. but regardless, that's not what trump said. trump said joe biden got the money and it came through putin. there is no allegation from senate republicans.

there is no allegation from anyone, as far as i know, until tonight, that joe biden received this payment. so this is, again, the president taking a kernel of something and turning it into something much bigger and more dramatic that's just not true. >> this is going to get much worse over the next 11 days, daniel. and i think -- actually, you may need a helper. and i'm serious with that. >> we have a team. >> but this is going to get worse over the next 11 days because there are so many things out there. and i think jake tapper pointed to this, earlier, about sort of the -- the conspiracy theories that are being propagated on the right that weren't necessarily talked about in this debate. not necessarily being talked about in legitimate media but they are certainly doing it in conservative media because the president's behind. >> yeah. it's getting worse and worse, don. i mean, the president, himself, is getting worse. i counted 66 separate -- not even counting repeats -- separate, false claims from the president, alone, between friday and sunday. that's one of the most dishonest

period of his entire presidency. social media. like twitter is just a disaster zone right now with misleading clips and images. just total bad-faith tweets. and so, yeah. the -- the information climate is just absolutely terrible. and frankly, a lot of it comes from the president, himself. >> daniel dale, thank you, sir. really appreciate it. there's more to come as our special coverage of the final presidential debate continues right here, on cnn, late night, after dark. 5g just got real. iphone 12 and iphone 12 pro are here on verizon 5g. whoo! this new iphone, plus verizon 5g... game changer. (announcer) with the coverage of 5g nationwide, and, in more and more cities, the performance of 5g ultra wideband, the fastest 5g in the world. whoa. i downloaded a whole movie in under 30 seconds. how is that possible? (announcer) pre-order today, and when you switch, get iphone 12 on us. i want this phone. (announcer) this is the 5g phone everyone wants on the 5g america's been waiting for. only on verizon.

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when he talks about a public option, he is talking about destroying your medicare. totally, destroying. and destroying your social security. >> he is a very confused guy. he thinks he's running against somebody else. he is running against joe biden. i beat all those other people because i disagreed with them. joe biden, he's running against. and the idea that we're in a situation that is going to destroy medicare? this is the guy that said, if, in fact -- and social security -- if, in fact, he continues to hold -- his plan to withhold the tax on social security.

social security will be bankrupt in -- by 2023, with no way to make up for it. this is a guy who's tried to cut medicare. so, i don't -- the idea that donald trump is lecturing me on social security and medicare? come on. >> one of the stronger moments, for joe biden, tonight. again, the president is no longer an insurgent. he can say i'm not a politician, yeah, you are. health care and not having a plan for it and being in court, right now, trying to undo pre-existing condition protection is not a good look when you say you'll always protect people. so, how did that play? what did it mean in the overall matrix of this election, 11 days out? nia malika henderson, ron brownstein the professor, and paul begala, good to see you, my brother. nia mali ka, people have made

their choice. we know who is on which team. it's now time to play the game. do you believe that there was needle movement tonight, maybe, because of early voting and people can vote, basically, any day they want to in any of the states that matter? >> you know, listen. i think this race is going to tighten down the stretch. you see some of that. you talk to democrats. they see some of that in the battleground states. and i think this probably helps donald trump, a bit, in trying to close this race. i think the problem that he has is that there is a large gap in, particularly, these demographics, college-educated, white voters, both men and women, and seniors, right? and that's why, that clip that you played with joe biden talking about medicare, talking about social -- social security was such a strong moment for him. you think about a state like florida. 21% of the electorate, in 2016, were seniors. same percentage in pennsylvania. so those kinds of lines where he

goes after the president on issues that are so important to seniors, i think, a really good moment for him. and we, also, know that, overall, this is going to be a race about the coronavirus and, to a certain extent, character, too. character, being how the president comports himself. some of the race-baiting he does, as well. and so, on those two, big issues, i don't think the president helped himself very much. but i think, sort of, you know, the wobbly republicans, they have something sort of to cheer about. maybe, some of those independents will start to shift in these battleground states back to the president. >> ron, looking, tonight, through the lens of the dem grac demographics that matter to each candidate, what did you see that mattered? >> i had a very similar take to nia. i think the -- the posture of the race is very -- you know, is very subtle. is deeply engraved, at this point. with very clear demographics. joe biden doing a little better but, you know, significantly, at the margin, among non-college

whites than hillary clinton. and then, doing strongly but as you noted with the potential of some slight erosion among african-american and hispanic men. but, overall, quite strong on minorities. i thought the president had a more coherent argument than he had in the first debate. and i realize that's a low bar. but the argument, look, if you are going to do all these great things. how come you haven't done them, in all these years? but he didn't have a more coherent plan. as nia malika said the fact that the country disapprove of how he is handling coronavirus. in the first ten minutes of the debate, he made very clear he is not going to take it seriously. he is going to continue to wish it away. and he has no plan to do anything differently as the u.s. heads into what joe biden accurately described i think as a dark winter. >> paul, how did you feel about it, tonight, in terms of what you need to do to win this

election? >> yeah. i think joe biden took a big step toward the white house, tonight. i don't think that trump did anything to shake up the race. in fact, i think joe framed it up well. his -- his biggest vulnerability, trump's last strength, is the economy. i don't think he pressed his case on the economy very strongly. i'm a builder. i can rebuild the economy. he didn't do that. and i thought biden -- this -- this frame of -- of progressive populism that joe used was great, i thought. scranton versus park avenue. you know, as -- as a democrat, i love hearing that. and trump didn't know quite what to do. and -- and it was, both, joe's best moment and the president's worst when joe said middle-class families are sitting around the table. talking about my tires have gone bald. i don't know if i can afford to replace them, and still pay for the tuition of community college. now, anybody that comes from a middle-class background, we had those conversations with our moms and dads. and it -- it -- as president bush used to say, it resonates.

trump's answer was a -- he just sneered at it. this is real life to people much more than this "breitbart" conspiracy nonsense. i couldn't even follow it, and i do this for a living. >> the laptop from hell. the -- or -- or the hard drive from hell, whatever it is. that's what rudy giuliani is calling what has been found, suggestively, about hunter biden. the president is all in on that, as one would expect, seeing how it's coming from his lawyer. however, the problem is -- >> who is also a movie star. i'm sorry to interrupt but isn't rudy -- he's got a big movie coming out, i heard. >> you are talking about the borat thing. >> i'm going to watch it. i can't wait because i -- i admire rudy. and i really want to see him on the silver screen. >> i think that rudy's got his own issues. but the idea that his lawyer, nia malika, is hanging out with someone who he knows has been

identified as a russian operative, and is parroting exactly what that person once said is interesting. and it made its way into the debate. here's what the president was selling, as hard as he was selling anything. i'll play the sound. then, it's all you, my friend. >> president trump, we're talking about race right now and i do want to stay on the issue of race. >> and i have to respond to that. >> please. >> because, look. there are 50 former national be intelligence folks who said this, what he is accusing me of, is a russian plan. they have said that this is -- has all the -- four -- five former heads of the cia, both parties, say what he's saying is a bunch of garbage. nobody believes it, except the -- his and his good friend, rudy giuliani. >> you mean, the laptop is now another russia, russia, russia hoax? >> that's exactly what -- that's exactly what we're told. >> this is where he's going. the laptop is russia, russia,

russia? >> gentlemen, i want to stay on the issue of race. okay? >> you got to be kidding. here we go, again, with russia. >> the marcia, marcia, marcia, version of russia, russia, russia. by the way, nia malika. and again, irony abounds in all these situations. the fact that the president wants to dismiss things as, maybe, a function of russian con sp spir conspiracy or anybody's conspiracy when his lawyer, is deep with a guy that is known to be a russian operative. but, as we know, this stuff is blowing up on the internet. there is a lot of reporting that has yet to be done on it. joe biden dismisses it. what do you think its net positive/negative was tonight? >> i thought this was a big flop for this president. listen. the reason he agreed to do this debate, in many ways, because he wanted to get all this hunter biden stuff into the mainstream. but it's so hard to follow. of course, all of it is, you

know, not verified. you know, he's talking about getting money. the laptop. and so, what was interesting is that, biden, himself, brought it up. and -- and then, you had donald trump sort of walk into it. and try to lace this whole conspiracy theory about hunter biden, throughout this debate. and i thought joe biden had a really strong moment when he said, listen. this isn't about your family or my family. it's about american families out there that are struggling mightily, economically, in terms of their health, care costs, sending kids to school. so this is a real miss, i think, for this president. but i think it'll continue to churn in the right-wing chattering class. and it's, in many ways, a it's what they tried to do with hillary clinton with the e-mails and all sorts of things. but this time, americans are really focused on what's going on in their personal lives, with covid in particular, and the failures from this president.

>> we will see. i am out of time for this segment. but i look at each of your faces, and i am trying to remember these moments because this election is going to be very definitional about which direction this country's going to go. so i'm trying to remember these moments. we're 11 days out. a scaramucci away from the election, as anthony put on twitter tonight. 11 days. nia malika henderson, ron brownstein, paul begala, we are living history. let's see what is to be writ. let's pick it up on the other side with some more power players and a man known as d lemon. tonight...i'll be eating cheesy cauliflower pizza with extra broccolini. my tuuuurrrrn! tonight...i'll be eating cheesy cauliflower pizza and yummy broccolini! (doorbell rings) thanks. (doorbell rings) thank you. ♪

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what we'd like to do is terminate it. we have the individual mandate done. i don't know if it's going to work. if we don't win, we will have to run it and it will be better run. but it no longer is obamacare, because without the individual mandate, it's much different. pre-existing conditions will always stay. what i would like to do is a much better health care. much better. we'll always protect people with pre-existing. so, i'd like to terminate obamacare. come up with a brand new, beautiful health care, always protecting people with pre-existing conditions. >> all right. well, let's get some thoughts on

all that. jennifer granholm is here. amanda carpen her. mi carpenter. mike shields as well. amanda, seriously. >> this debate wasn't about policy. this debate marked the complete, utter, total collapse of president trump's strategy against joe biden which is to smear him with hunter biden finances. that collapsed, tonight. okay. he's been trying this for years, it's what he got impeached for. and he couldn't land a single argument on biden about it. so, yes, his campaign is going to keep pushing this. but i think everyone that was on this train needed to look at what donald trump did tonight. and he just made a mess of it. so i think we need to stick that conspiracy into the ground on halloween. put a headstone on it and dance all over it. >> amanda.

well, mr. shields, amanda came in hot. what do you think of that? she's -- she's not even talking about the health care. she came in hot and she's got her own agenda. >> the fact that she led off with that means that it may have served some purpose because up until three days ago, a lot of people in the media weren't even talking about this story. >> i have written about it. i have watched this conspiracy theory. it is so much junk and you know it, mike. you know it. >> keep -- keep talking about it. i mean, we're -- you're talking about hunter biden. that's what the president wanted you to be doing. you're doing exactly what he wanted. >> people don't really know. >> yeah. >> that's why i said, earlier tonight, that people -- you needed a decoder book to try to figure it out. jennifer, let me bring you in here. what do you think of tonight? i started off with health care because -- and i think it's important to talk about it but, look. amanda carpenter, talk about whatever you want. i thought it's important to talk about, especially dealing with -- we're in the -- in the middle of a pandemic, right now.

>> of course. of course. and, of course, yet again, the president does not have a plan. now, he's going to wait until after the supreme court knocks obamacare out. but, in the meantime, what happens to all these people who would be losing their health care in the middle of a pandemic? i thought that joe biden, this health care series, whether it was covid or health care, in general, was so clear. he came out of the box. there are 220,000 people who have -- who have died. we've got, now, a thousand people a day. we've got, now -- who are dying, almost. 70,000. he had all of these numbers that were right on the money. and the whole point about the economy, which donald trump keeps coming back to. first of all, donald trump had no empathy for any of the 220,000 people who were dying. and to me, if you step back and you look at this whole debate and who expressed a desire to come through this in an

understanding of where real people were, it was, obviously, joe biden. and donald trump had no shred of empathy. and, don, you and i are talked about our mothers. so, i call my mom, who is -- to let people know -- 85 years old. former republican. i said -- i call her, mom. did you watch? he's a horrible person. that was the -- those were the only word -- i said, well what -- what do you mean, mom? he's horrible. she's talking about trump. and she cannot stand him because he does not have a single shred of empathy. and that's what, i think, a lot of people who are not in the weeds. who -- she didn't know what the heck he was talking about. laptops and china and russia and all that. she didn't even understand what they were talking about. but she did get that he had no empathy. >> well, i didn't -- i didn't quite understand, when he said -- when he talked about, well, i'm -- you know, i'm going to protect your pre-existing

conditions with the individual mandate. but then, i'm going to come up with a beautiful health care plan. mike, listen. i know you're a straight shooter. okay? he has been saying he's going to come up with a health care plan, since 2015. he's been saying it's going to be shortly. it's going to be two weeks. it's going to be a month. it's going to be soon. come on. where is the lie? i'm not lying here, mike. especially, now, during a pandemic. does that ring even more hollow? because people want to know what's the plan? and so far, he has no plan. >> yeah, look. i don't think republicans have done a great job of coming up with an alternative to obamacare. that has been a huge problem for them. we ran on getting rid of obamacare and replacing it. and the replacing part was very difficult. i think the president's better message on health care is to talk about the biden health care plan, which would get rid of private health insurance and is closer to single-payer medicare for all health care plans. >> it would not. >> i'm going to have to mute your mic, jennifer.

>> sorry. sorry. you're just doing the same thing the president is doing. >> i'll give you a chance to respond. mike, go on. >> yeah. i -- i -- i, respectfully, didn't mean to interrupt you. i must have hit something that would be a better message for the president than what he said. so i'm sure you might agree with at least part of that. >> go ahead, jennifer. >> can i -- >> yes, yes, you can. your mic is un-muted. >> mike, i don't understand why you are repeating the lie. joe biden's plan is not to eliminate private health insurance. as he said repeatedly tonight. i ran against that idea and i won it in the primary. he wants to allow people to keep their private sector plans, but he also wants to be able to create an option. so i don't -- i mean, i don't understand why this continual emphasis on doubling down on a lie. >> i can answer that. i can answer that for you. i can answer that for you. nancy pelosi said it. she said improving obamacare --

>> joe biden -- >> is a step to medicare for all and single-payer health care. and she's the speaker of the house. >> but joe biden did say tonight -- >> an ally in working on health care. >> mike, mike, mike, let me in. i helped you with the mute mic thing. >> i appreciate that. >> joe biden said tonight all the things you're talking about, you're running against joe biden. you're talking about everyone else's health care plan. what they want to do with it. their interpretation of it. but he's saying their health care plan won't do that. >> of course you're bashing the president for not giving specifics. joe biden is saying his health care plan won't do that, yet he's for improving obamacare, which nancy pelosi said is basically a step to single-payer. if democrats win the presidency, the white house -- excuse me, the senate and the house, that by the spring there will be a single-payer health care bill on the floor and the left wing of the party will demand it becomes law and put on joe biden's desk.

>> because republicans haven't done anything since obamacare was made into law in 2010. so congratulations, republicans, you had ten years. >> go ahead. keep going, amanda. >> i actually don't disagree with you on that amanda, you are on a role. >> i was in the senate. i tried to repeal it and replace it. i was part of that. how long do you expect to wait? i'm someone on the camp in the private market that wants a strong private health care market so i can get affordable health care. where have the republicans been? i've been waiting for that plan to show up. i'm fearful, too, mike, but who can i turn to for help? it sure as heck has not been the trump administration. >> well, i was just going to say, when you said let's imagine if the democrats win the presidency, the house and the senate, there are conservatives who are watching going, no, mike, don't say that. and amanda is -- amanda's vocalizing that right now. so, i mean, what -- what

happened -- she's right. it has been a decade and republicans still have not come up with a plan. and this president, honestly, hasn't come up with a plan. i know you're criticizing joe biden, you know, for the president saying, okay, it's going to be two weeks, it's going to be whatever. but joe biden, there is an actual plan there that people can read, whether you agree with it or not. but there isn't one for this administration. there's not one. >> is that a question to me? >> yeah. >> yeah, look, i mean, if you hear what the president says, he says we administer obamacare better. and, in fact, under president trump, obamacare premiums have gone down. he's in a place where he can't say -- if you guys would let me talk, i may actually agree with you for a moment. >> we may have comment about what you're saying. >> what i'm saying is that he can't say, you know what? we didn't get a replacement done. we just didn't get it done. now i'm left in saying we will protect pre-existing condition coverage and we're going to

administer obamacare better. that's a part of what his message is because, as amanda said, republicans dropped the ball, we didn't get a replacement bill done. so i think a better message for the president is to talk about what will happen. to bring voters like amanda back to the president, all they need to know is they're going to get socialized medicine when the left takes over and bring them back to the camp. that's what he should be saying in the debate. >> i can't leave my house or send my kids to school because of the way he's handled the pandemic. >> can you do it in ten seconds, jennifer? >> i was just going to say there is one other cable top issue that -- kitchen table issue that i think people really care about that i think joe biden handled really well, which is raising the minimum wage, which is at $7.25 on the federal level. which no one can live on. and i think that strikes a chord across america. >> that's a whole another show. listen, someone here, i think it was $3.35 an hour for me when i

started out. i think it was lower. >> okay, grandpa. >> you don't remember $3.35? wow, i'm making minimum wage. thank you guys. i appreciate it. see you soon. so, chris, are you there? >> i'm listening. >> okay. so here's the thing. the reason that i talk so much about the health care plan is obvious because we're in the middle of a pandemic right now. and people are relying -- people need medical help and medical attention and they need access to the health care system. and so by saying, you know, i'm going to do this, i'm going to do this, i'm going to do this, that doesn't help people right now entangled in the health care system in america. >> first of all, the issue decided the midterm elections. >> yeah. >> health care matters. we need to do better. what's the complete truth? the aca, obamacare, was never a done deal. it was supposed to be worked on over time. the republicans wouldn't do it. mitch mcconnell specifically said we're never going to do anything but get rid of it. that never happened. so there's nothing better.

it hasn't been perfected and the problem keeps getting worse, especially for the pandemic. we have real problems. which direction will this country take to solve them? we'll see. >> in the next 11 days, maybe we'll know. we don't know. i always enjoy hanging out with you, my friend. >> i'll tell you what, it's nice to do it on tv. it's nice to do it off. i wouldn't want to do it with these hours with anyone else. take us home, brother. >> thanks for watching, everyone. a special encore presentation of the final presidential debate is next right here on cnn. we'll see you tomorrow.

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good evening from belmont university in nashville, tennessee. i'm kristen welker of nbc news, and i welcome you to the final 2020 presidential debate between president donald j. trump and former vice president joe biden. tonight's debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. it is conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the commission's health security adviser. the audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent. no cheers, boos or other interruptions except right now as we welcome to the stage former vice president joe biden and president donald j. trump. [ applause ]