this is "gps: the global public square." welcome to you in the united states and all around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live. today, a special show. all the guests have held high positions in republican administration administrations, from reagan to bush to trump. >> they're trying to steal an election. they're trying to rig an election. >> we will spend the entire hour with them, examining this unprecedented moment in america as donald trump continues to try to delegitimize the election.

>> there will be a smooth transition to a second trump administration. >> first, what are america's friends and foes around the globe supposed to think? >> and just why won't trump admit he lost? i'll talk to two men who served as trump's national security adviser, john bolton and h.r. mcmaster. >> also, before michael chertoff was the secretary of homeland security, he was a u.s. attorney and a federal judge. i'll get his take on trump's legal challenges to the election. plus, what has trump's obfuscation of the truth done to an already deeply divided american public? "the wall street journal" opinion writer and former reagan speechwriter, peggy noonan, gives me her perspective. but first, here's my take. the predictions most people make

about the outcome of this election are probably right. donald trump's refusal to concede to joe biden won't change reality. his lawsuits appear to be going nowhere with one judge describing a trump campaign legal brief as inadmissible hearsay within hearsay. republican state legislatures are not going to designate their own slates of electorates in defiance of the duly recorded vote totals. so once all the ranting and suing is over, biden will almost certainly be inaugurated as the president of the united states on january 20th, 2021. but trump is attacking, defaming and delegitimizing american elections in an manner unprecedented in the country's history. his obstructionism won't keep him in power, but it will deeply wound america's democratic culture. he is whipping his base into a frenzy about a stolen election and few of them are going to change their minds because of court decisions and recounts.

the conspiracy theory of the stolen election of 2020 is here to stay. a reminder, what everyone may say about democratic anger and resistance after 2016, hillary clinton conceded to trump the night of the election and made her formal concession speech the next day. >> i congratulated donald trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. i hope that he will be a successful president for all americans. >> the following day, president obama invited trump to the white house, spent an hour and a half talking with him, and promised full cooperation for a successful transition. the historical parallel that seems most appropriate today is a very dark one. after germany surrendered at the end of world war i, ultraright-wing groups concocted the myth that germany was actually on the verge of winning the war in november 1918, but

surrendered because of a conspiracy to destroy the country plotted by certain communists and jews. in his beth, "the death of democracy democracy," the trauma of defeat left millions of germans believing a particular narrative about the war, not because it was demonstrably true, but because it was emotionally necessar necessary. hitler often raised the topic during his rise to power. in a 1922 speech, he said, we must call to account the november criminals of 1918. it cannot be that 2 million germans should have fallen in vain and afterwards, one should sit down as friends at the same table with traitors. no, we do not pardon. we demand vengeance. today, newt gingrich says this about biden. >> i think he would have to do a

lot to convince republicans that this is anything except a left-wing power grab, financed by people like george soros, deeply laid in at the local level. it's very hard for me to understand how we're going to work together. >> president trump re-tweeted this incendiary video of the actor jon voight. >> this is now our greatest fight since the civil war. the battle of righteousness versus satan. yes, satan. because these leftists are evil. let us fight this fight, as if it is our last fight on earth. >> the historian timothy schneider points to the danger of such rhetoric. if you've been stabbed in the back, then everything is permitted. claiming this a fair election is foul is preparation for an election that is foul. if you convince your voters that the other side has cheated, you are promising them that you yourself will cheat next time, having bent the rules, you will then have to break them.

a political system is not simply a collection of laws and rules, it is also an accumulation of norms and behavior. when senate majority leader mitch mcconnell says that trump is 100% within his rights to behave as he is, mcconnell is missing the crucial distinction. there is a reason past presidents have conceded to defeat when it was statistically clear that he had lost, without waiting for the last vote to be counted. and trump's defeat is decisive. biden is on track to win as many electoral votes as trump did in 2016, 306. biden's margin in georgia is over 25 times larger than the difference in florida between georgia w. bush and al gore in 2000. biden enjoys a larger margin in pennsylvania than trump got in 2016. it's a cliche to say this, but it is true. democracy is above all about the peaceful transfer of power.

trump is shredding that norm for his own egotistical needs. but his actions today will have a large and lasting effect on this country's politics and culture for decades, creating a cancer that will metastasize in gruesome ways. go to cnn.com/fa reed for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. >> mike pompeo promised on tuesday that there would be a smooth transition to a second trump administration. the secretary of state woke up this morning in paris, where his schedule is full of meetingings with job officials, including the french president tomorrow. emmanuel macron himself has declared that biden's victory is an opportunity to make our planet great again. so that should be an interesting

meeting. what is the international affect of trump's unwilling to concede? joining me now is general h.r. mcmaster, who is a lieutenant general in the u.s. army, and one of its great thinker soldiers. and he was named national security adviser a month into donald trump's term. general mcmaster, welcome. let me first ask you a simple question. the president of the united states has just tweeted that this election was rigged. what is your response? >> well, fareed, it's great to be with you. first of all, that was a pretty depressing lead-in, fareed. i think i'm a lot more optimistic than you are. record numbers of americans voted. our democracy works. and while what the president says in this tweet is just wrong, it's regrettable, it's counterproductive, i think our democracy kocould be stronger tn ever, right? people are making a lot about, hey, we're divided. but if we weren't divided, we

would be a one-party system. so i think we should be more confident. and fareed, what i write about in "battlegrounds" is that the only thing worse than the ignorance of history is the misuse of it. and i'll tell you, fareed, we just haven't -- we just didn't go through world war i and we're not the ymar republic. so i think we have to be more confident and recognize that our founders, they did a brilliant job, fareed. they thought about, you know, what could go wrong. and they designed a system that couldn't compensate for the worst-case scenario. a president that's acting irresponsibly like president trump is, guess what? our founders set it up so the executive branch doesn't even have a say in the transition. so fareed, i think we should be a lot more confident. >> what do you think of how joe biden is behaving? >> i think it's a great example. i think his message of, hey, i'm going to be a president for all

americans, it's exactly what you want to hear from a president-elect. and i hope that president trump in the coming weeks can rise to the occasion. of course, i don't think that's in his nature. but i think all americans should expect more from their elected leaders, right? this kind of demagoguery and vitriolic partisan discourse, it's nothing new for us. look at some of the elections in the early 19th century. but what we should do is demand that our leaders not undermine our confidence in our democratic principles and institutions and processes. and fareed, what's paradoxical about this is, president trump's administration did a great job at securing our election. especially after we saw what the threat was from russia in sowing dissension, raising doubts about the results of the election in 2018. 2016 went off without a hitch and 2020 was a very secure election and americans should have confidence in the result. we can let these legal actions go forward and that's fine, but

these allegations of the election being rigged or there being fraud, it's not only counterproductive, as you mentioned, it's dangerous. but i don't think we need to worry about it. we are not a monarchy, right? our founders learned the lessons of the bloody wars of the 17th century in england. and they set up a very strong system and strong institutions. >> you write, general mcmaster, in your book about how the central goal of vladimir putin is to sow doubt about the strength of american democracy. and you imply that same thing about the chinese communist party. so don't you think they are looking at this and pointing to it and saying, you see, we were right? >> that's exactly what they're doing. and we know that. i've been reading a lot of their efforted to undermine our democracy. and what they're trying to do is

amplify the message you had at the beginning. so we can get drug down in this or transcend it as americans. and all of us have a role in bringing americans together. we don't have to agree on policy, but we should have civil discussions, because we share the same goals, right? we all want a better future for generations to come. and i think now is the moment to do that, fareed. and you're right, what russia wants to do more than anything is they want to polarize us, pit us against each other and reduce our confidence in our common identities and in our institutions and processes. and we should not be participants in that. whether it's our political leadership or the media or any of us who have the opportunity to convene americans and to foster the kind of respectful wide-ranging discussions of the challenges that we face. >> general, i first came across you when you were a younger general who wrote a book called

dereliction of duty, about why the joint chiefs of staff should have been much more assertive and pushed back against the president during the vietnam war. do you think there has been a dereliction of duty at the highest level of the american political system. like jim mattis, jim kelly, republican leaders, in not pushing back against a president, who by his own accounts is unprecedented in his behavior. >> i think what you owe any elected president is your best advice, right? and recognition that only the president and maybe the vice president got elected. so i think, fareed, there are three types of people in my administration. there are those who serve under the constitution, know it's their role to give that elected president options and to assist in the implementation of his or her policy decisions and strategies. and a second group of people come into to kind of manipulate decisions, based on their own agenda. and a third group, and this is

the case in any administration, it's their job to save the country or the world from the president. the problem with that second to third group is, they are undermining the constitution, right? because sovereignty in our country lies with the people. if a president is going to do something illegal, i think it's junior duty to poeps that and reresign. but if you disagree, it's in the your job to make policy as a member of the administration. >> we will have to leave it at that. a pleasure to have you on, general. i hope we can talk again zplp thank you, fareed. >> coming up next, the master successor, john bolton.

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this week saw cnn and other major news organizations call both arizona and georgia for joe biden. >> this is your new map of american politics. >> this brings the total to 306 electoral votes for biden, well over the 270 needed to be the next president and the same as donald trump in 2016. let me bring in john bolton, who served as national security adviser to trump after many highly-level positions in republican administrations dating back to ronald reagan. bolton wrote "the room where it happened" about his time in the trump white house. welcome, john. let me ask you a question about donald trump's tweet, in which he seems to acknowledge that joe biden won the election, though because in his view, in his allegation of all kinds of fraud. is the fact that, you know, what is it, the seven stages of grief. he's going through denial. is he now at the point where you

think he's accepting it, finally? >> well, it may well be. i think now he's in the course of developing his theory of how it was rigged, who betrayed him, the stab in the back allegations, which is why i've always felt that he would leave the oval office, but he won't leave graciously and he'll do a lot of damage in the meantime. damage to his own administration, which has already begun with high-level firings. damage to the incoming biden administration by delaying the transition. and frankly, damage to the republican party for these baseless claims that the election was stolen from him. >> you say that the republicans need to stop coddling him. and you argue that they wouldn't pay a political price. explain what you mean. >> well, i have trust in the republican voters. i believe that if their leaders explain to them that trump lost

fair and square and that the facts do not support his claims that the election was stolen, that they will come to accept it. but if they only hear from donald trump, it's not unnatural for them to think, since nobody else on our side of the aisle is disagreeing, that what he's saying is accurate. and i think that lays the basis for real distrust in the system, casting doubt on the integrity of our electoral system, the constitutional process. the russians and the chinese couldn't ask for anymore. this is dangerous to the republican party, obviously, of paramount importance, what trump's doing is potentially dangerous for the country. >> you're a rock-ribbed republican. you're an old-fashioned berkian conservative. how do you react to what trump is doing? i mean, how much does it damage the democratic fabric of the country and the constitutional system? >> well, i think he's done a lot of damage in four years. and it's one reason that for the

first time in my adult life, i didn't vote for the republican presidential nominee. i didn't vote for biden, either. because i don't think that's the -- that's the policy answer for the country. but that's why it's also important for republican leaders to speak up, to begin the process of explaining that trump doesn't represent the republican party, much of what he said has been distorted, that we can have faith in our electoral system, just take the two states you mentioned a moment ago, georgia and arizona. both carried by biden at the presidential. both have republican governors, both have republicans in many leadership positions. really, were they all asleep on election day in the weeks before election day? they need to say, we believe that the election process was conducted in a free and fair fashion. we've already had the homeland security department say that all of these stories about computer hacking and algorithms that are

corrupting the vote are untrue. i think the facts speak for themselves, but we need republican leaders to validate them. and i think that's important, not just for the democrats to do it, we know what they're going to say. we need republicans to tell the truth, too. it's not that hard. >> you said in your memoirs that you believed that every single foreign policy decision of any substance that trump made was geared toward helping him win re-election. so this must be a huge disappointment for him. >> yeah, i think he's stunned by it. i think that's why he's been silent for so long. he's lived in his own dream world and become successful at it for four years. the coronavirus was the one tragic reality he couldn't deal with. his own election loss, in his mind, is another tragic reality right now. so now i think he's trying to calibrate, if, in fact, i've

lost, how do i maximize my brand in the days after the coming inauguration of joe biden. and that's what's at stake now. will he buy a tv network, continue to tweet? what exactly will he do? so he's trying to set himself up for the donald trump chapter post january 20. >> do you believe that he will pardon himself and his family? >> it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. i personally do think the president has thaef constitutional authority and since trump doesn't think he's bound by norms or questions of prudence, i think it's entirely possible that he will. and i guess my only comment there is that even richard nixon didn't pardon himself. >> how do you think trump goes down in history? >> as a failed president.

look, he doesn't -- he's never thought in philosophical terms or even policy terms. the decisions that he's made, and i think he made a lot of correct decisions, were based on political calculations. nominations to the judicial system, low taxes and deregulation economically, classic republican policy decisions, and even in the international space, they were on an ad hoc basis. i say in my book, his decisions are like an archipelago of dots. they're not connected by anything. and the consequences, he missed a huge, huge range of opportunities internationally for the united states, because he couldn't focus his attention long enough to develop coherent policies or at least to adopt coherent policies that were offered to him. and i think his erosion of faith in our common institution alcon system is something, i believe it can be corrected, but it

sends a signal to others who are tempted to engage in that same kind of behavior that they can succeed. and it tells our adversaries what their propaganda has to be directed to in future elections to have that kind of effect. >> john bolton, pleasure to have you on. >> thanks, fareed. glad to be with you. >> next on "gps," what about the president's legal challenges? do they have a chance of changing more than a few votes here and there? former secretary of homeland security, who was once a federal judge, michael chertoff, joins me next. mom, why do we always come here for the holidays? how did you find great-grandma's recipe? we're related to them? we're portuguese? i thought we were hungarian? grandpa, can you tell me the story again? behind every question is a story waiting to be discovered.

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trump's legal challenges to the election have been encountering major problems. nine lawsuits in battleground states were withdrawn or denied on friday alone and a couple of the law firms handling the cases have dropped the president as a client. meanwhile, a subagency of the department of homeland security issued a statement calling the 2020 election the most secure in american history and stating there is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised. joining me now is the former secretary of homeland security, michael chertoff. welcome. you, before you were the secretary of homeland security, were a federal judge. before that, you were a u.s. attorney. so you have a good perspective. give us a simple explanation, why are all of trump's lawsuits failing? >> well, it's a good news story. i mean, we had a record turnout.

there were no episodes of interference with the voters or even violence. the counting proceeded deliberately, but skillfully and properly. as dhs has announced, there was no compromise of machines or any. i.t. infrastructure. so essentially, there was no evidence of fraud or disruption, and every time they go to court and the judge says, show me your evidence, they have to say, well, we really have no evidence. or there really is no fraud. plus, the margin of victory in the battleground states is sufficient that even some very trivial discrepancies would not have an effect on the outcome. it's a good news story for american democracy. >> what do you make of the case that's being made regarding pennsylvania, to just remind people, the argument is, the pennsylvania state legislature said you should only count

ballots that were delivered on election day. the state said, no, you get threes more as long as they were postmarked on election day day, if they get delivered three days later. this is being taken to court. do you think this will get to the supreme court. do you think that this lawsuit has a chance to succeed? >> the first thing is, according to what's been reported, the number of ballots that came in after november 3rd were 10,000. the margin of victory for joe biden is now five times that. so essentially, it will not have an effect on the outcome. that leads me to believe that it's unlikely this case will get to the supreme court, because generally the court doesn't take cases to decide abstract issues with no concrete result. but the bottom line is, i don't see how this case changes the fact that joe biden is going to be the next president of the united states

>> do you know that ten state attorneys general have filed amicus brief, sort of, friend of the court briefs. do you think they see a legal claim here that is powerful and important, or are they just playing politics. >> i have to say, the attorney general, i think it's a largely performtive step. i don't think they believe they're going to have an impact on the election. there might be some technical issues that get resolved ultimately for future elections, but the number of ballots seems to be well below what would affect the outcome in any of the battleground states, and given the fact that joe biden is now about set to get 300 plus electoral votes it's very hard to see this having any impact at all. >> i saw pan interview of yours from some weeks ago in which you correctly predicted that the

period of transition, the single-most important issue would be the wild card, you said, is donald trump. how the president will behave. do you still think there is some element of a wild card here, or at the end of the day, are you confident he will, in fact, leave? >> well, i have no doubt that he's going to leave. he's not going to have a choice. on january 20th, a new president will be sworn in and that president will have the power and the authority of the presidency. i actually doubt that donald trump will be in the white house at that point. my guess is that he's going to go down to his place in florida and maybe over christmas and not come back. but the bottom line is that the government will move forward. however, having a smooth transition is necessary for the safety of the country. we've got a pandemic, we have adversaries around the world

looking to make hay or to exploit any delay in our transition process. and as a matter of obligation to the american people that the trump administration should begin the process of briefing the biden people on intelligence and also turning over the reins of power. >> you understand both the legal issues, the national security issues involved here. what do you think's going on with trump's decapitating of the defense department, firing four top people, including the secretary of defense. does that worry you? >> of course it worries me. we're in a period where our adversaries are looking to see if we drop our guard. and any disruption of the security apparatus invites mischief by foreign actors or terrorists. that being said, and of course i'm not a mind reading, it

strikes me this may be an active vindictiveness against people that donald trump perceives as having been insufficiently loyal. there is also speculation that donald trump is going to try to initiate a precipitous withdrawal of our forces in places like afghanistan and is afraid that the defense department would resist. of course, withdrawal wound disastrous and would open the door to having terrorists taking a more prominent role in afghanistan. and again, is part of playing russian roulette with the safety and the security of the american peopl people. >> michael chertoff, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> great to be on, fareed. >> next, meggy noonan on what effect the president's behavior is having on the culture of this country. spots? it's not your dishwashers fault.

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just what is the president's refusal to accept the truth doing to an already deeply divided america? the great peggy noonan joins me now. she was a speechwriter for ronald reagan, a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for the "wall street journal". >> peggy, let me ask you. i get that the system will work and there will be a transition. i want to know what it does to our culture, particularly to the political culture on the right to sow the seeds of these conspiracy theories. as william hofstetter said, we have a paranoid streak running through this country, we have had mccarthyism, do you worry that this will become the new sort of conspiracy theory on the right that lingers? >> reporte >> i do. i think the president is throwing around words like "steal," the election was

stolen, it was all rigged, it's a fiction of the fake news media that i lost and joe biden won. there will always be an audience for an angry, paranoid, accused vision in america. there will always be some audience for that, among some of the trump base, i'm a little bit worried about the rise of this sort of stabbed in the back theory, that the president was not well represented by official washington, that they were his enemies, that they tried to do him in. that they rigged the election and unfairly arranged this whole thing. so i am worried about it, but i also feel, fareed, a certain sort of indignant anger. i think the president must know

that he lost, the white house must understand there are no legal avenues that are fruitful at this point. the recount avenues are very likely not fruitful. if you know that, and yet you ask your most passionate and sincere and trusting blooefrs to believe something that isn't true, which is that you won, it is a kind of abuse of them. it is cynical. and it is wrong and it makes me feel indignant that he is taking advantage of good people in this wa way. >> you know, i have often thought that one of the great regularities of american politics is that the more optimistic candidate tended to win. and that was best seen in your president, reagan. what does it tell you that

trump, who is very pessimistic and dark about america and sees it a as bad and rigged system and, what does it say that there's such a market for this kind of dour, grim, pessimistic view of america? >> well, i think there's a lot of anger in america, understandably. certainly, it is a polarized country. i was taking notes this morning and writing polarized, polarized, polarized. and then it occurred to me, that's the only thing that we agree on. that we are, in fact, not united. there is a lot of anger out there. and that's always fertile field for a political figure. but, yes, it is true, an american president whose inaugural address included the phrase "american carnage," do you mean what i mean? that was so very grim. you know, there was -- there was

some insights that donald trump did run on when he ran in 2016. he saw the frustration of a lot of americans, democrats and very much republicans, who were frustrated by american establishments, american elites. two parties, which seemed themselves rather cynical and not handling and resolving certain national problems. so i think we are at a point where a certain amount of anger can get you pretty far. >> and do you think that there is a healing that words can do? i mean, you believe, preemine preeminently in the idea that words have consequences. do you think nah biden's effort to at least rhetorically put a balm on some of these wounds will have help, or does it need to be something more?

>> i think joe biden, when he becomes president, will have a heck of a lot to deal with within his party, without his party, in the country, in general, fareed, i don't -- somebody asked me the other day, can he heal the country? and i said, no, no one can heal the country, but he can calm the country. it would be wonderful to see him to come in and lower the temperature somewhat. it will be wonderful to see him come in and set himself to making government work again. working with the other party, working legislatively, maybe concentrating to start on one big thing, coronavirus relief, which is necessary and everybody wants it. so i think there's some promise there. and it would be very good and very calming and ameliorating to

some degree if we could see a government fully staffed, fully functioning, fully working. working in happy apply prediily ways and it would be very good if the world saw that, too. i can't help but think of this two-month period ahead as a rather dangerous time. >> on that note, always a pleasure, peggy noonan. >> thank you, fareed. and we will come back with a solution to america's electoral chaos. really.

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and now for the last look. we talk about the election that happened on november 3 here in the united states. but it wasn't actually one election. it was 10,000 elections conducted around the country with over 150 million ballots

regulated by 52 separate legal koesd and run through at least 72 different models voting machines. but a messy patchwork is intentional. the united states is a election of states that have considerable autonomy. the constitution directs states to to vote in term. and election tam ppering would near impossible. but there are no uniform national standards, on is a felon can vote in vermont but not in virginia 9 lack of a centralizeded eed electoral is reflected. and the u.s. elections are among

the least trusted of alled democracies. annu america elections need an overall and they should start with an independent collision. it is written that two-thirds that all democratic countries have an independent agency that runs their elections. and in india for example, an independent election commission regulates the world's democratic system sending 11 million poll workers to almost 700 districts. they depend on local administrations to enforce it. and in fact the elect assicommin

has little power. they should give them you power to have this body look in allegations of fraud. and this do delitizpoliticize t system. the u.s. is lagging behind t remembers rememberesz of the world. thanks for being a part of my show. i'll see you next week.thanks f show. i'll see you next week.of the w. thanks for being a part of my show. i'll see you next week.the worl. thanks for being a part of my show. i'll see you next week.of the w. thanks for being a part of my show. i'll see you next week.

good afternoon. thanks for being with us. we begin there hour with a nation in crisis. cases are surging, hospitalizations again on the rise. and new concerns about an increase in deaths. and more than nine months into the pandemic there is no national plan despite the fact that the virus is spiraling out of control. the numbers don't lie. saturday johns hopkins reported another 166,000 new cases continuing a definivastating tr. the president didn't address the rapid axcceleration