republican senator james lankford is getting attention for his mixed message on whether president-elect joe biden should be getting briefed on national security matters. lankford is the chair of a subcommittee that oversees the gsa, the general services

administration. an official there is accused of blocking the biden transition funds. here's what senator lankford said last wednesday. >> there's nothing wrong with vice president biden getting the briefings to be able to prepare himself and so that he can be ready. there is no loss from him getting the briefings and to be able to do that, and if that's not occurring by friday, i will step in as well and to be able to push and say this needs to occur so that regardless of the outcome of the election, whichever way that it goes, people can be ready for that actual task. >> again, senator lankford last week made the case for biden to get the briefings, saying if that's not occurring by friday, i'll step in as well and to be able to push them and say this needs to occur. friday came and went. this is what senator lankford said on newsmax tv on saturday. >> i'm not in a hurry necessarily to get joe biden these briefings. it's been interesting how the media, the national media, not this network, but others have

twisted this term step in. >> pushback there from the senator. now another seeming turn. the senator says he did, quote, step in with the gsa and talk with them on friday over the biden transition. he declined to say who he spoke with and what they had to say. the news continues right now. i want it hand over to chris for cuomo prime time. >> state tv has got some new competition. it's going to be very interesting to see how the narrative unfolds. for people like us, we do the job based on who's in power. but this is going to be very interesting. you notice what lankford said there. how the media, not this network, is playing his words, which were he would get involved. and now he isn't, and we know why. he has no good reason. thank you, my brother, for bringing it to light. i am chris cuomo, and welcome to "prime time." there is good news tonight, and there is bad news. and you know what? having both is already progress by recent standards, is it not? the good news, we potentially have a second vaccine. the moderna vaccine. maybe 95% nearly effective.

and it does not need to be stored, they're telling us, at these extremely cold temperatures like the pfizer drug. makes it easier to distribute. good. i would like to say the cavalry is coming, but that metaphor is not ripe, and that's the bad news. there is a difference between having a vaccine that can work, which it seems we may, and getting all of you vaccinated. a huge difference. experts say the plan to distribute and track is way behind. the president-elect gets this and gets what's making matters worse. >> more people may die if we don't coordinate. i am hopeful that the president will be mildly more enlightened before we get to january 20th. >> look, the planning needs to

be done now. why? this country has never dealt with getting 300 million people, all ages, stages, regions, you know, different living situations a vaccine and tracked it and figured out follow-ups. never. and it is an epic task. it demands coordination with the outgoing and incoming administrations. what are they supposed to just come in, bring some people in, and say, so what's the plan? it will never work. yet for two weeks there's been no effort by the trumpers except to put trump's political health first, not your health. literally trumpers are risking the fates of so many of you because trump is upset about his own fate. he's saying it in his tweets. look, i don't think they're worth reading, okay? you can look at them if you want. they're there. but, again, there's good and bad news in this. trump can lie. he can say he won, but he can't

compromise your votes. the problem is he can compromise your safety. and what we're seeing is every day he gets more desperate. so do his words and deeds. the latest, "the new york times" is reporting tonight pence, pompeo, milley, who is the head of the joint chiefs of staff, and others had to talk trump out of a military strike on iran's main nuclear site in the coming weeks. seriously? again, we know his judgment on iran is no more competent than his lies about the election. but, again, i submit to you the problem is bigger than him. that's why i say trumpers. and the trumpers will be here after trump. you cannot forget the men and women in power who are empowering trump to delay this transition. and the key part, they have no basis in fact to do so. they have no justification.

it is absolutely okay to go to court to point out, litigate, argue, politicize proof of problems. we've had over a dozen lawsuits. no court, no republican state officials, no evidence offered by any credible source justifies any questions about the legitimacy of the outcome. so how do republicans in washington justify saying, well, there are questions. has any of them given you proof to back them up? none. well, we should let the process play out. first, they want to play a victim. you know, when you say remember them, i say remember them. they say, he's targeting us. yeah, you are being targeted. but not because you're victims. because you're victimizing the rest of us, and people must remember and hold you to account when trump is no longer there to somehow, in your perverse reality, spread the sunshine on

you. you know this time is supposed to be for biden to get up to speed, and you know the need for that is unique right now. and yet the trumpers are keeping biden back with so many in this country literally dying from a lack of leadership. and by the way, while they're saying let the process play out, they're not doing anything with their own legislative process to give you relief, are they? why not? remember what they did for trump and remember what they didn't do for you. proof of my argument. senator lankford. didn't this guy take an oath to have faith and allegiance to the constitution and his duties thereunder? i didn't see trump's name in the oath. so why does senator james lankford break his promise? if they don't give biden these briefings by the end of the week, i'll have to step in. now he's going on newsmax, you know, the new competitor to state news over there, to figure out who has, you know, trump's best interests at heart, saying,

oh, the media had it wrong. i'm in no hurry to help biden. that means he's in no hurry to help you. once again, clarity on the situation. fresh eyes. this time it's former first lady michelle obama. to play around with these groundless conspiracy theories, whether for personal or political gain, it to put our country's health and security in danger. this isn't a game. this is the 14th day in this country of more than 100,000 new cases per day. 25 states saw their highest seven-day averages for new daily cases yesterday. and, no, it's not because we test too much. it's because we don't care enough, me included. we all have not done what we need to do. take a look at this scene in dallas this weekend. look at these cars. not a trump rally, but this is a result of trump. you know what this is?

these are cars lined up to collect groceries at a food bank. i want you to keep looking at this. look at all the cars. look how far back the lines go. this is america, okay? this isn't post a hurricane. this is status quo for months for millions of people in this country. we've never seen anything like it since the new deal, since the depression. still think it's a hoax? still think masks are a joke? still think it's okay because you can catch someone like me not wearing one every minute of the day so you never have to? when people are starving because trump likes that, that you show you're strong and that you don't need a mask? look at this. this is your country, and it's not going to end anytime soon because nobody's making it end. and you know what the trumpers tell you? instead of seeing this and

saying, hey, we got to get to a better place, dr. atlas, okay? a guy with no pandemic experience. he literally would know more if he stayed at a holiday inn express last night. he's saying, hey, you in michigan, these measures to help try and control the spread, fight back. are you kidding me? shame on you. what kind of doctor would tell people to rise up and resist the only kind of prophylaxis that can help them? what the hell is the matter with this person? rise up? you rise up and do your job or get the hell out. how could you give this kind of advice? of course fauci was being measured. he says, i don't agree with his position. this isn't fauci's fight. the science is obvious. this is about trump and the trumpers. he's going to have his main health guy stand up and say,

fight back against the regulations that keep you safe? listen to him. i'm not making it up. >> and this kind of isolation is one of the unspoken tragedies of the elderly, who are now being told, don't see your family at thanksgiving. for many people, this is their final thanksgiving, believe it or not. what are we doing here? >> what the hell are you doing here? yeah, it could be their last thanksgiving. if you expose them to people who aren't wearing masks, who aren't socially distancing and haven't been doing so and haven't gotten tested because they somehow think they don't want to get in on the con of covid. you know, you want to hide on state news, you do it. but someday you're going to have to deal with real questions. and either you're going to come on a show and do it, but you know what? we may go back to old school and maybe the questions will come find you. maybe when you're living your life nice and ease because you don't have the concerns that these same people that you're telling to rise up, that they have. maybe the questions will come and find you because you have to answer for that kind of

guidance, let alone it's a doctor. do no harm? invite grandma? this could be her last thanksgiving? yeah, if you invite her to a place where she can get sick and die. thanksgiving's right around the corner, and you know what? we do have to think about what we're thankful for. and we also have to think about what we're thankful for getting past because this ignoring the science, this is crazy. we're past 11 million cases. it will disappear in the spring. it only took six days for a million more to get sick. it had taken weeks and weeks. now it just took us a week. why? because we're not all together as one fighting with the desperation that is what you must have before the vaccine. 65 days are a lifetime for too many people in this country. that's how long trump has left. trumpers, remember you took an

oath to this country and your constituents, not to him. do your damn job. now, what should that be looking like versus what is the legit state of play? excellent insight and information for you right now. david axelrod, kaitlan collins. so, kaitlan, we laid out some of the state of play there. we understand what's going on. we saw "the new york times" reporting. this idea that the president has plans of what he wants to do in these 65 days that are almost scarier than what he wants to do to contest the election, what are you hearing? >> well, the president has obviously been looking to make a lot of changes that started with last monday when he started purging the leadership at the pentagon. but of course the question is now what are they going to do in the next two months? that has a range of topics where it's the president continuing to fight the results of this election, urging his team to keep this fight going even

though we say as it's playing out in each of the different courts and different states, their chances of success are dwindling, not that they were ever that strong to begin with. we're already seeing the struggles they're facing there. you've got to look at the question what does the president do in the next two months? the question of the transition is more than just the president conceding the race and recognizing joe biden's victory, but it's also whether or not the president is checked out from the coronavirus response. that's something that we're hearing increasing concerns about because if you've noticed, the president gave an update on operation warp speed last friday. that was really one of the only times we've heard from the president talk about the pandemic without, you know, accusing pfizer of holding data on a vaccine to hurt him politically or things of that nature, those kind of conspiracy theories that the president has been pushing. so i think that's a big question that people have is what does the president not do over the next two months when it comes to coronavirus, and how does that affect or damage really the standing of where the nation is and what the biden administration is going to be

coming into? >> all right. so, ax, just in terms of the particulars of it, the idea that he may begin the leasing process for arctic drilling, i'm not that worried about that. i think there are policy discussions to have there, but that can be undone, whatever he does. that's a protracted process. what is also protracted but a little more difficult to manage once it's put into effect is troop drawdowns from afghanistan and iraq. we've seen at the end of a term people put more troops in. we've never seen them start taking them out. i know it's a protracted process to pull them out, but what kind of complication does that stake in situations that are still very unstable? >> great complications. look, i think there are two dangers here, what the president isn't doing and what the president will do as kaitlan said. 65 days is an eternity, and there's so much power in that office and so much of an ability to do things that are really dangerous for the country.

war in iran, for example, would be an enormously costly decision and dangerous decision and certainly not one you should make on your way out the door. withdrawing troops is a fateful decision, and there are consequences that may be paid for that if it's not done the right way. you know, so these things are -- these things are worrisome, you know, along with what he is not doing. this could not be worse timing. we are entering the worst phase of this pandemic, and the danger, we should -- look, i have -- dr. atlas was pandering to the feeling of people of isolation, of not being with their family on thanksgiving, of all the sacrifices that people have to make. i am sympathetic to that. but the reality is hospitals across this country are being overwhelmed by this pandemic. and within a few weeks, we may have people who are literally

dying in the streets because they cannot get into a hospital. this is a national emergency, and it's not getting any attention from the president of the united states. so, you know, on the one hand he's contemplating all these rash actions that are subversive and could create real danger for us, and he's ignoring the gravest danger that we face right now, which is this virus. it's really a tragic circumstance here. >> kaitlan, any word on the lower levels that there will be some interface between the current administration and the incoming on the vaccination process and distribution plan? >> well, they're struggling with how to approach this. even though who are more maybe career officials or people who actually do want this process to go smoothly because they've worked on it for the last nine months or so is that they can't even really talk about it because the president himself hasn't recognized it. and that's not even just on the lower levels. we saw it with the hhs secretary

this morning who wouldn't even acknowledge the fact that there is going to be a transition to another administration because the president himself has, of course, denied that and put all of his deputies in a terrible spot where they feel like if they acknowledge it, of course, they're going to get the treatment that robert o'brien did today where he's just simply recognizing reality and pointing that out, or they just act like it's not going to happen and then look ridiculous later on. so this is something they are concerned about. this is something people do want to go smoothly because they don't want it to undo all the work they've done on the vaccine over the last several months and the distribution process that they've been working on within operation warp speed. but of course that is a struggle when your boss cannot admit that he lost the election, at least not publicly in a sense like that to where they can properly be ready for that, though they have assured us they will be ready if a transition does happen, which are the words that azar used today. of course we know it's not if. it's when. >> kaitlan, thank you. ax, last word to you and also weigh in on this a little bit.

i see this like this is going to be worse than what you dealt with, with the republicans when you came in. i mean they are holding up this transition at a time they know is life and death, and they have no basis, not even cruz is offering -- the guy is a champion debater and litigator and supreme court know it all. he can't offer any legitimate grounds for litigation right now. the cases are failing all over the place. it looks like it's in its death gasp in pennsylvania. if this is their spirit of opposition, what is biden looking at with this republican senate in control? >> no, i agree. every single person in washington, including senator cruz, knows the reality of what the situation is. this election was over a long time ago, and they're playing this out because the president demands they do. here's what worries me. what we didn't face, yes, that is scary -- the opposition in the congress is worrisome for biden. but we didn't have donald trump sitting down the street setting up camp and leading the resistance from some, you know,

right-wing television outpost, and that's what's going to happen here. and what you see on the part of these republican politicians is abject fear, not so much fear of trump but fear of the base that he commands. and that is what biden's going to face whenever there comes a question of cooperation. i think that, you know, at a time when we desperately need cooperation, you're going to have trump banging on the door day after day, calling people traitors if they make any move to work with the people that the united states elected. >> thank you. appreciate you. all right. major concerns in the run-up to inauguration day. what is this with iran? why would trump think to do this on the way out? he had a lot of time to do it. he has never wanted to do anything like it since we had that moment years ago. why pull out troops now and threaten destabilizing the

region? you had years to do it. why now? great timing to have his former national security adviser on here and also for just an understanding, they're playing politics. the military is in charge of figuring out distribution. policy versus politics can be a world of difference. h.r. mcmaster, next. how about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no

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oooh...you meant the food, didn't you? let's get checked for those around us. let's get checked for a full range of conditions. introducing letsgetchecked a health testing you do at home. let's get round the clock support from a team of nurses. let's get fast, accurate results. know your health. know yourself. order now at letsgetchecked dot com "the new york times" reporting just last week donald trump had to be talked out of a

strike on iran. line that up with him appearing to move forward with plans for a drawndown in afghanistan and iraq, and iraq has a tie to iran that we'll discuss in a second. and that's all beside the point that cnn has learned that earlier this month, mark esper, trump's recently fired defense secretary, he sent a classified memo warning against doing exactly that and maybe that that's why he was fired. with all this, look, what is the clear picture? you got a lame duck commander in chief who is poised to use power in desperate ways, and it can matter. 65 days could be the longest of our lives. general h.r. mcmaster was trump's national security adviser, author of the new book "battlegrounds: the fight to defend the free world." perfect read to understand this moment we're living right now. general, thank you for joining us again. >> hey, chris, it's great to be with you. thanks for having me. >> so some perspective.

let's -- you know, he says, maybe we take a shot at iran, stop their nuclear capabilities. and i want to get rid of the troops in afghanistan and iraq. iraq says hold on a second by the way. we're on a tight rope here between the united states and iran. not a great time to destabilize us with your presence. what do these type of asks speak to in your opinion from this president? >> well, i think on iran, we ought to be encouraged by the fact that then he had apparently a meeting and decided against that. of course, there's always this lure of the strike. you know, these are people who put forward easy solutions to complex problems. and, you know, war is not an easy endeavor because the other side gets a say in the future course of events. you know, chris, i wrote a book about how and why vietnam became an american war called "dereliction of duty." and what lyndon johnson's advisers did was they went to him to give him the advice he wanted on vietnam. just do some covert raids. just get the first bombing runs

off. and they never considered the long-term costs and consequences. so it sounds like that's what happened in that meeting. the president decided against it. chris, there's going to be a problem for the biden administration, iran. you saw the report about iran last week, enriching more and more uranium, probably moving toward maybe a threshold capability for a nuclear weapon. it's going to be a difficult problem. of course israel has had the beggen doctrine, which means israel will not accept a hostile state having the most destructive weapons on earth. remember the israeli defense force strikes against iraq in 1981, and then the strikes against this nuclear facility that the north koreans were helping the assad regime build in syria in 2007. so this is a period, i think, of significant danger, significant danger of military action in the middle east that could lead to a much broader conflict. >> nobody likes to see our fighting men and women abroad, especially it seems like in

unwinnable wars as you know very well. afghanistan is often called the graveyard of empires. but the idea of doing it now on the way out, we're not used to seeing a commander in chief pull troops out on the way out. sometimes they put more in. what is your risk there? >> it's a huge risk. okay? chris, you should know, right? you're a new yorker. this is not a theoretical case. if the taliban and jihadist terrorist organizations gain a safe haven and support base, gain territory that can allow them to plan and resource and rehearse mass murder attacks against us, plus, by the way, having access to an extremely lucrative narcotics trade that fills their coffers and makes them even more effective, we got what we got in 2001, way was the most devastating terrorist attack in history. and what people around president trump are saying now is, hey, go back essentially to the bill clinton counterterrorism doctrine. you know, when we look at the history of al qaeda, they

declared war on us in the early '90s. we thought that's not a big deal. who's this osama bin laden guy? then we had the first twin towers bombings in 1994. we had the embassy bombings in '98 and we fired a few cruise missiles in afghanistan and called it a day. i think what we need to learn from 9/11 is that these problems that develop overseas can only be dealt with at an exorbitant cost once they reach our shores. we have a very small number of troops in afghanistan. and, chris, as you alluded to already, you know, we should be extremely grateful for the ten courageous soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for us in afghanistan. but we should also recognize that about 30 afghan soldiers or police a day give their lives to protect the freedoms they've enjoyed since 2001 and to ensure that the taliban never again control territory and play host to these other jihadist

terrorist organizations. >> how big a deal is the task of giving a vaccine to 300 million americans, 300-plus, and how important is it that the incoming administration be working with the team that's working on it now, right now? >> yeah. of course this is a hugely important undertaking. hey, the good news about it is my good friend general gus perna, is running this. he's a fine officer. he is a great american. he's going to make it happen. he and his team will make it happen. i think it's immensely important to bring the biden administration into this now. you know, those who are working on the transition. but, you know, chris, i don't think we should be super concerned about it because once you remove kind of these hyper political people across the government at this stage, what you have is you have really dedicated, in this case a military officer, but civil servants who are going to make this work. and of course they're doing it in a very close partnership with the private sector and private logistics chains.

i have big confidence in this, chris, that this is going to work. >> but they have people over -- >> what you said at the outset of the show is right. the door should be open, right? hey, we're all americans, right? this virus isn't going after democrats or republicans, just like at 9/11 al qaeda didn't attack democrats and republicans. they attacked americans. so we should be together on these issues. >> 65 days is a long time, though, as you alluded to hyper politicals. the president just put several of them in at the pentagon. a lot of them, they're not necessarily on top of perna's head in terms of oversight because he's doing it. but resources, allocation, planning meetings, you know, structural logistics, to could all be slow-walked no matter how he wants to do it. and 65 days is a long time in a pandemic. >> well, you know, the problem with 65 days is, you know, it's not long enough to get a lot positive done, right? you can do some damage in 65 days. but i'm not worried about it in terms of warp speed and logistics there. i am concerned from a foreign

policy perspective and i think what we've seen in afghanistan is this abhorrent strategy of actually partnering, you know, with the 5% of the population, the taliban, against the other 95% or so of afghans. and you know what's important to understand for americans? i mean i know why americans are frustrated with what they're calling endless wars, because we've been incompetent in our conduct of our campaigns in afghanistan and iraq and more broadly against jihadist terrorist organizations. but, you know, i'll tell you, this is an effort worth sustaining, chris. the danger is great to us. it's not a theoretical case. and by the way, our commitment there was at a sustainable level. so this is going to be another -- you know, another big issue for a new administration when they come in. what to do about it. what's important to understand about afghanistan as well, though, is this move toward disengagement, it's not a partisan issue, right? in many ways, i think what donald trump has done is doubled down on the flaws of the obama

administration's approach to afghanistan. in some ways, chris, you know, we set kind of too high of a bar. people are saying, gosh, we're in afghanistan, and it's not denmark yet. okay. afghanistan doesn't need to be denmark. it just needs to be afghanistan and on a slow path to gaining self-sufficiency. it's also important to know, chris, that u.s. troops are far fewer in number now than the rest of the coalition in afghanistan. so this is an effort that the international community's been behind, and with us just walking out like that, everybody else is going to lose heart and walk out as well. >> right. look, there is something about leaders going first, but also, you know, he's had a long time. there were a lot of people in there between when you were there and now, but they could have come up with a plan. they could have pulled back if they wanted to. to do it last second like this is all downside, very little upside. general, thank you again for being on the show. appreciate it. >> chris, thanks for the

opportunity to be with you. >> of course. the book is "battlegrounds: the fight to defend the free world." and a lot of what we're talking about now, the general talks about in there. our thanks to him. all right. another piece of good news, right? look, we haven't had a lot. when we take it, let's take a breath and appreciate it for what it is. pfizer vaccine, good news. having to keep it that cold, negative 70 degrees, that's tough. they say there's refrigeration all over, but that's going to be take. now another vaccine, moderna, which is part of operation warp speed's development. it is absolutely. kudos to operation warp speed, started by this administration, started by president trump, and it is the fruit of that effort. and it doesn't need to be refrigerated. that's good news. and its effectiveness is as high as 95%. good. what does this mean for the good things we can do going forward? what are the challenges? and what is the biggest concern right now for a new biden covid

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just a week after pfizer announced its covid vaccine and had 90% success but it does need to be kept very cold, moderna came out with even better numbers today. 94.5% effectiveness, the company reports. preliminary data but astounding. like pfizer, moderna hopes that vaccinations will begin in december. and, yes, it's going to take months to ramp up to the kind of level that we can use to vaccinate some 300 million people if we have the right plan. now, biden will oversee the effort at that point, so how important is it that he's not in the loop now? trump continues to lie, deny,

and defy, even as cases surpass 100,000. he wants credit for the vaccine. he doesn't talk about the cases. hospitalizations hit a new daily high. over 73,000. deaths nearing the 250,000 mark. even with a vaccine, you got a lot of death between now and when we're protected. and a biden team, each day they're falling farther behind. >> a vaccine is important. it's of little use until you're vaccinated. so how do we get the vaccine -- how do we get over 300 million americans vaccinated? they say they have this warp speed program that not only dealt with getting vaccines but also how to distribute this. if we have to wait until january 20th to start that planning, it puts us behind over a month, month and a half. >> so on that basis, let's bring in dr. celine gounder,

infectious disease expert, member of biden's now covid advisory board. good to see you again, doc. >> it's great to see you, chris. >> congratulations on the appointment. now comes the work. we just had general mcmaster on, former national security adviser. he says perna's got it handled. he's gop got an amazing team. don't worry. when they get in, they can handle it. is it that simple? >> well, imagine if we were in the middle of a world war, if we were at war with a foreign power and we were telling -- or the current administration were telling the incoming administration, hey, you don't need to know where the aircraft carriers and the tanks and the troops are. we got it. and on your first day at work, on january 20th, we'll let you know what that information is. i mean that would be a ridiculous transfer of power, and it is analogous to what we're dealing with in terms of the war on the coronavirus. we really do need very fine, granular data. that is what will allow us to be

much more targeted in our restrictions. that will allow us to be more targeted in how we distribute vaccines to those who need it most. >> right. that's an important point. so the cdc is doing that vetting, but, you know, the leadership is top-down. and how they are assessing and who they want to get it first and where, you never know with this administration. they may play red and blue versus old and young. so i understand why you want the role in there. before we get ahead of ourselves, are you convinced by the early data from moderna. >> this data as well as the pfizer data looks really good. we always continue to collect, even after a phase three clinical trial is done, even after there's full approval by the fda, we continue to collect data on effectiveness and side effects because there are some rare events that you cannot pick up in the initial studies. so, you know, it looks promising. we're very excited. but we're going to continue to study this. >> the idea -- just so people

have the numbers, 15,000 participants received placebo. 90 got sick with covid-19. 15,000 participants received the vaccine. 5 got sick with covid-19. so, you know, compelling. it's early data. you can keep testing. you may get some different results, but this is much higher than what we require for flu vaccines, i'll tell you that right now. 90% is amazing. for flu vaccine, they accept 40%, 50% efficacy. the current white house team says, look, the pandemic plans are publicly available, okay, in terms of distribution. you don't need any more information than that. what does that miss? >> i mean that's like saying military plans are publicly available. yeah, sure, you can read "the new york times" and you can see what is publicly available on websites. that is not the level of detail that those of us who are planning a pandemic response really require. we need to be in the room or at least in the zoom meetings with pfizer and moderna and, you

know, all of the companies that will be helping us distribute this as well as local and state public health departments. we need to be in those discussions now so that there is a seamless transition. >> now, we know each other from the pandemic. you were at nyu. nyu was one of the few places to have a long haul research center where they're having people come in to figure it out. a lot of unknowns. when you get in, do you believe that there are actual -- will it just be messaging, or are there actual policy changes in the fight against covid that this administration will make? >> oh, no. this is not just messaging. i mean there's going to be -- >> i know messaging matters, by the way. i don't mean to say messaging doesn't matter. but is there anything else because the criticism is you guys are going to do the same thing the trump administration's been doing. >> no, no. i'll give you a couple of examples. we don't have time to go through the entire list but a couple of examples. number one, we've been pleading with the current administration, with the president, to invoke the defense production act for

months, since the beginning of the pandemic. as somebody who has worked myself on the frontlines at bellevue hospital in new york, i can tell you we've been dealing with a shortage situation for months. we've been using the same masks over and over again. i've had the same face shield since march. so this is something that is urgent especially as we have a huge surge in cases. another good example of a major contrast, the current administration has been actively discouraging testing. we are going to massively ramp up testing because that is the only way you can be targeted in your restrictions, that you don't have to be so blunt to have lockdowns. you need to know where the virus is spreading. >> dr. celine gounder, one promise to you as we make to all administrations. you will always have this platform to come out and argue the facts of what's happening and what the recommendations are of this administration on the same. >> appreciate it. >> good luck going forward, doctor. we need you. >> thank you. all right. look, you don't need me to tell you that covid is exploding, all right? you got covid exploding. you got trump imploding. it's impossible to make sense of all of it, especially in a

divided media landscape. president obama said, you know, it's hard. we don't have a walter chron cite time to help combat disinformation. cronkite was a great man and a great mentor, and i liked him. this is a very different time. let's bring in another legendary broadcaster, sam donaldson. it's not as simple as one person. the whole media landscape has changed and we're battling something even he never battled before. let's discuss with one of the masters, sam donaldson. typically, do not have access to high quality computer science and stem education. growing up, there was a teacher that believed in me and he took the time to invest in me. and that changed my life. i joined amazon because i am impatient. i wanted to change education, change the world at a pace that i want to change it. ♪

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now during the chevy cyber sales event, use $500 cyber cash on most suv models... to get $5,250 total cash allowance on most 2020 equinox models. visit chevycybersalesevent.com today. the chaos that we see, as a country, right now is something former president obama says is not just about president trump. >> i don't see him as the cause for our divisions and the problems with our government. i think he's an accelerant, but they preceded him. and sadly, are going to, likely, outlast him. >> agreed. part of the problem that obama pointed out to "the atlantic"

is, quote, we don't have a walt walter cronkite describing the tragedy of kennedy's assassination but also saying to supporters. without this common narrative, democracy becomes very tough. sam donaldson. one of the best compliments i ever got was when someone called me a poor man sam donaldson. i accept that, with a smile and a handshake. it's good to see you, big brother. what do you make of the former president's point about the need for a common narrative, as made manifest in a single newsman? >> well, not a single newsman. but we need a common narrative. but a common narrative is based on common facts. there are no different facts, and reporters in my day, i hope we all tried to bring you, the audience, facts that we had discovered, that people had told us, that we had checked out. and occasionally, we were wrong,

and we tried to correct that. and the audience has generally accepted that what we were trying to do was bring them information that was factual and they could use. but without tracing what's happened in decades till now, look where we are now. president trump has made it clear to the nation that any story, anything that is said about him or his administration, that he doesn't like, is fake news. fake news, fake news. i mean, in everything he does, he tries to make the audience out there, his audience, feel that us, the people of the news media, are the enemy. he said that. we're the enemy of the people. well, that's nonsense because if you can't trust someone to bring you some information that's factual that you can use. and if the president of the united states says you can't trust them, not one of them, unless it's good for me. where can we have a dialogue? as president obama said, how can we have a common narrative, if there are no facts? >> true. but, look.

politicians never love us. the obama administration certainly didn't. right? his ag, eric holder, had plenty of problems with the media. what do you think has changed, in terms of how we do our job? what do you think the lesson of trump is? >> well, the lesson of trump is, frankly, we just have to do our job better. but how do you do it better when there aren't just three networks when i started. you had to watch one of us. walt walter cronkite. david brinkley. huntley. if you didn't like one, you go to the other. now, if you don't like any of us, you can go to tens, thousands. i can't tell you -- no one's like walter but i can't tell you how many people are delivering what they say is the news and, in fact, it's usually their opinion based on almost nothing. or it's fake news. if you go to alex jones' site, and he tells you those kids were

not killed. those were government plants. those were people put there. and you believe that? well, you never heard that from any of us, that kind of conspiratorial theory. or the pizza thing and there's, you know, the pedophile about hillary clinton down in the basement. people are believing that. so, who do you go to for information, chris? cnn? fox? msnbc? i mean, and then, i'll go down a whole list. news max is getting the audience, now, from fox because donald j. trump has flipped fox. he had the temerity to say he was not going to win arizona, which he didn't win. his network, his propaganda machine that he has now diverted a lot of viewers to news max. to one america to these farther right wing. they make fox look like msnbc, compared to them. and where do they go? so, you'd say to me, well, who do we trust? who do we believe? unfortunately, it's sort of up

for grabs. >> what do you say to the audience about what they should think as we transition out of this? because trump's not going anywhere, right? certainly, trumpery won't go anywhere. he will be out there, as a force of resistance. may even run again. what's the best guidance as a consumer of information? >> he may, but he's not going to be president. he's not going to have that platform. he'll try to make himself everyday news, as he has as president of the united states. but, chris, we don't have to believe that. we don't have to put him on. i always thought we should put the president of the united states on. until the very end, i agreed with people who said point out that he's lying. point out that's not the fact. point out that wearing a mask will help save your life and someone else's life. and he will say, no, look at me. i'm the big, strong guy, you fool. and it's -- biden was right, today, in not allowing a transition team, if he doesn't want to concede, fine. allow the team in to start

working because the 20th of january, at noon, he's not going to be president of the united states. and i'm sure he'll leave peacefully. federal marshals will drag him out of the office, if he doesn't. >> god forbid, we don't need that. >> no, we don't need that and i'm not predicting that. but i am simply saying his ability, his grip on, what, 72-plus million americans who voted for him and i'm -- i believe all of them are in his grip at all but it will diminish, chris. he is not going to be the force, a year from now, two years from now, that he has been. mark it. other people in the republican party or whatever they call themselves, republican, trump cultists, or what have you, are going to be vying for that nomination in four years. they're not going to give weight to him. >> sam, i have a suggestion of one of the things we haven't done enough of that i think will help the audience, not just now but, certainly, over the next couple of years. very often, in the moment, i see things a certain way based on

the information and how it's coming and what the focus should be and that's how we plan the show with the team. it often would benefit from the perspective of somebody like you. doesn't have the pressure of being on every day. so, you can see the game and you can call balls and strikes, and i'd love you to do that more on this show. how about that? >> well, it might cost your viewers. but, look. like the old dog at the firehouse when the bell goes on, i'm going to get up off the floor, of course. >> good. >> i love the country. you love the country. and i think people who voted for donald trump love the country. >> absolutely. >> that's not the point. the point is how do we find the common ground and the common facts on which to argue? >> sam, i will see you again soon and thank you very much. to everybody else, we'll be right -- >> my son, good-bye. no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card.

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