good evening. there is breaking news, tonight. just moments ago, georgia confirmed president-elect joe biden is the winner there. according to the final count, the margin was 12,284 votes. the audit confirms there was no widespread fraud or irregularities in the election. and even before the news broke, there was this. cnn has learned the president of the united states knows he's lost the election. knows, in short, that nothing he is doing now to cast doubt on the vote can change the outcome. he knows this. according to cnn's gloria borger and dana bash who join us shortly, he is doing it for revenge. not on behalf of the 70 million odd americans who voted for him. some greater end that justifies

such drastic and unprecedented means. he's just trying to destroy the village. the most powerful person on earth doing the greatest damage possible to the oldest democracy on earth for the pettiest motive imaginable. vengeance. because he can't stand losing. it's pathetic, actually. i got to say. did you see the press conference? the train wreck with rudy giuliani with the sweat and hair dye. like, he was the -- the -- the -- conductor of this train week. ne they took this one to 11. it was next level. take a look. rudy giuliani. there he is. i mean, we got to talk about giuliani. can the producers from "intervention," please, get in touch with his people and set something up? legendary new york columnist once described giuliani as a small man in search of a

balcony. now, he is just a hot mess. the man once described as america's mayor appeared sweating with newly applied hair dye rolling down his face. it wasn't a press conference. it was a clown show, without any actual meaning or reality. >> did you all watch "my cousin vinny"? you know the movie? it's one of my favorite law movies because he comes from brooklyn. and the nice lady, who said she saw. and then, he -- he says to her, how many fingers do i -- how many fingers do i got up? and she says, three. she was too far away. because, see, there was only two. >> that's the guy who is leading the president's efforts. that's who is in charge. only the best. rudy giuliani. he is alluding to a complaint among several about observers being kept too far from the counting, which the pennsylvania supreme court rejected two days ago. now, here he is having started

off talking about a case in michigan, which has already been rejected by the state's court of appeals. drifting into a baseless allegation about voting in philadelphia. >> if you lived in philadelphia, unless you dare -- that's an italian expression for stupid. unless you're stupid, you know a lot of people come from camden to vote. happens every year. it's about as frequent as getting beat up at a philadelphia basketball -- football game. >> it must have been hot in that room. i mean, this is where we are. this is where we are. these are the people. yeah. this is where we are. he is talking about the old, legal doctrine of everybody knows. i believe it was first argued in the well-nope caknown case of f v. keepers.

or here is how a member of the legal team answered questions about having evidence for his allegations. >> your question about the process. your question is fundamentally flawed when you are asking where is the evidence? you clearly don't understand the legal process. >> meanwhile, the lady behind her, like -- wow. you know, i said it was a clown show. i apologize to clowns, i'm sorry. you're better than that. your question is fundamentally flaws when you are asking about evidence, she said? okay. yeah. look. i'm not a lawyer. would you like a side of alternative facts with that, perhaps? today was not a good day in court for the president's effort. not that it matters because, as we said, he doesn't even expect to win. one court after another dismissed claims on the president's behalf. the latest today, arizona, pennsylvania, and georgia.

attorney sydney powell peddling a debunked conspiracy theory about voting software. >> the dominion software and the software that goes in other, computerized voting-systems here as well, not just dominion, were created in venezuela at the direction of hugo chavez to make sure he never lost an election. >> the old, blame hugo chavez maneuver. he's been dead since 2013 but he had his finger on this one. things got to bonkers that chris ke krebs, the official fired by the president tweeted, quote, that press conference was the most dangerous 1 hour 45 minutes of television in american history and possibly the craziest. if you don't know what i am talking about, you're lucky. but, wait, there's more. the president's effort is so

pathetic that he is now also making efforts to get michigan's wayne county, which went heavily for joe biden, to toss out results. he's invited michigan lawmakers to the white house, according to a person familiar with the matter, presumably, to get them to approve a trump-friendly set of electors, instead the one the voters chose. he hasn't received an intelligence briefing, that we know of, in more than a month and a half. hasn't attended a covid task force meeting in six months. he has not said a word about the quarter million americans who are now dead. who have died of this virus. has not mentioned the more than 1,800 who died yesterday. nor, the 1,899 reported dead, so far, today. and now, we learn, it's not even a matter of him caring more about a quarter million contested ballots than a quarter million lost lives. in fact, seems he cares about

neither. he cares about nothing now, except, according to this source, taking revenge on those who called his 2016 victory into question. and making it hard for the winning candidate, this time, to do his job, which is serving the american people. helping america make progress. that's the best we can describe it, tonight. and perhaps, the worst that can be said about anyone who has ever held the office. joining us now is gabriel sterling. mr. sterling, break this down for us. did this audit change the margin of vice president biden's lead over president trump? >> well, the think about that. a hand-tally audit. this is the largest hand-tally audit in the history of the united states. it's not about changing the final tally. it is about verifying the tally we saw on election night and that is what is shown here with very little variation. >> when you say very little variation, what do you mean? >> well, when you do a hand tally, you are comparing it to what the computers counted on

election night. and essentially, we all know that computers are always going to be more accurate than human beings. in fact, most hand tallies have, according to most studies, about a 1 to 1 and a half percent deviation. and a .0099. so verified on election night, biden has the most votes, at this point. we are looking to get certification tomorrow. then, the person who comes in second, in this case, looks like it will be president trump, has the right to request a recount, since he is in half a percent of former vice president biden. >> just to be clear, did you find any evidence of widespread fraud or irregularities, like the president and his legal team and his allies have been alleging? >> one of the things you are looking for is to make sure the items you see on the paper, on

the ballot, that they match what the computer said. so, human beings looking at these things because, as you know, one of the big complaints is these machines somehow flipped votes or did stuff. they didn't. at least not in georgia. we proved it. we did this hand audit. and it shows the outcome we saw on election night, the same we saw this time. and essentially, it's the exact same even with the human being having a hand count of that. >> the georgia secretary of state announced the news in a press release which ended, quote, because the margin is still less than .05%, the president can request a recount after certification of the results. do you expect that his campaign would do that? or have they already done so, i guess, i should ask? >> they haven't done so because they legally can't until we certify, which will be some point tomorrow. and listen. they have every legal right to ask for recount. they have every legal right to go to court. as we saw today, they have gone to court twice in georgia. i think, one, they pulled the

lawsuit. and one, was dismissed today by a trump-appointed judge. so they have legal remedies. they have due process. we are a nation of laws, not of men. they have every legal right to present evidence. but the final outcome is what we anticipated in terms of what we saw on election night. it is proper and correct. the machines did their job. and the will of the voters of georgia -- our job is to execute the goal of making sure we have fair and honest election in this state. >> and just so i am clear. assuming if -- if the trump administration decides or the trump campaign asks for a recount. how would a recount differ from what you have just completed? >> what we did was a hand tally, which is basically when you have thousands of audit teams, together, looking at each ballot individually. under election board rules, recount, in that case, we will be using equipment again. so all counties, they will create a test deck of ballots, a

mix of between ballot-marking device, which is our computer-generated ballot. and a hand-marked ballot. and they run those through the scanner and say, yes, this is what we expected to see. the scanner's operating appropriately. they clear those off. and then, they literally will run all 5 million-plus ballots through those scanners to get a true recount of those ballots, one more time. and that would be the final version of -- of -- of the ballots that were voted. >> and approximately, how long does that, if that was to be requested, how long would that take? >> well, we never done one before so this is kind of new territory for us. i mean, we just did a hand rekounr recount in ten days which was amazing lift. our counties did amazing work. they really staffed up and did it right. we did the math. we can do about 50 ballots a minute on each, individual scanner. there's about a hundred -- or

about 200 of them in the state. we will probably redeploy some of the scanners to smaller counties. the law is on the .5%, they can request it within two business days. so since we're going to be certifying tomorrow, they have until tuesday to make the request. of course, thanksgiving is next week. so depending when the request comes in, we can start monday, we can start the following monday. >> gabriel, really appreciate your hard work and everyone in the state. thank you so much. appreciate it. >> thank those counties. the real hard work. thank you. >> appreciate it. as promised, dana bash is here. along with cnn election analyst, rick hasen. dana, your reporting is president trump knows he's lost but is delaying the inevitable out of revenge. explain what you have heard. >> right. well, a source who is in contact with the president says that, what the president knows is that, in his heart of hearts, is

that he will not win. we have heard that from other sources as well. but what this source added was that what the president is saying, pretty explicitly, is he feels that the democrats, when the president won in 2016, tried to make his win illegitimate y t the russia investigation and dossier and everything that went along with it. so, he is using their playbook. that's his thinking. i use the word payback. that's not what my source used but there is no other way to put it. that is what the president is doing. one of many reasons why he is continuing to not allow the biden transition to get funds. to get briefings. and also, much more destructively, continuing to call the election results fraudulent. where there is no evidence, as you showed, with your opening with the rudy giuliani and

company press conference. >> yeah. i'm wondering how the president views giuliani and this legal, you know, team, i guess they are. you know, the press conference. these fruitless rabbit holes. things are just -- you know, in courtroom after courtroom, things are being rejected or tossed out. or the lawyers stepping down or taking back, you know, withdrawing their cases. >> the president wants somebody out there fighting for him. and the president wants somebody out there going down whatever rabbit hole they feel comfortable doing. and rudy giuliani is pretty much the only one left, who will go down those rabbit holes. and have the kind of press conference he had today, with the few people who were standing by him. other lawyers who have a lot more credibility with election law are nowhere to be found and there is a reason for that, anderson. >> rick, i want to read something that you wrote earlier today about the president's efforts in michigan. you said, this is very dangerous for our democracy, as it is an attempt to thwart the will of

the voters through political pressure from the president. even though it is extremely unlikely to work, it is profoundly anti-democratic and a violation of the rule of law. it's inexcusable. does it become even more dangerous for a dmemocracy, the longer this goes on? >> yeah, i think so. i mean, certainly, the president has every right, as any candidate does, to bring legal cases and to challenge results, if there is a reason to challenge them. but we've now gone -- you know, we're -- we're coming up closer to the deadline for when everything has to be certified. they have produced no evidence. in a filing today, in pennsylvania, for a preliminary injunction where you are supposed to provide your evidence, they said we'd like to bring in an expert. but they didn't provide any -- any expert, yet. they've got nothing, legally, in the hopper that plausibly is going to show fraud, plausibly is going to show any problem in any state. so, what they are trying to do now is a naked power play. the idea is we're just going to try and get these state legislatures to just announce an alternate slate of electors and

declare trump won. and the longer this goes on, not only does it danger the transition, in terms of covid and all that. it undermines people's confidence in the fairness of the process. there are millions of people now who falsely believe that voting machines are being manipulated. that biden is cheating. that it's some large conspiracy. it's just really deteriorating the whole environment, in which we have our democratic process take place in. >> and, dana, i mean, perhaps most -- i don't know. it's not surprising, i guess. but -- but -- i mean, you kind of expect the president to do, you know, this kind of stuff. this is from his playbook. all these republican senators. standing by. being party to it. and -- and -- squoort of, you k, sagely nodding their heads and saying yes, yes. yes, we must look into -- i don't think we fully understood, as a country, how vulnerable our system is to manipulation. because, you know, tom friedman

has pointed out and others, that it's large -- it's often based on norms, not something, necessarily, that he is cod fifd in law. >> based on norms. based on shame. and -- and -- and leaders not wanting to be shamed. not wanting to be the one or the ones who break those norms that -- that are the pillars of this democracy. and you're exactly right. we -- we are seeing that deteriorate, right now, in a pretty big way. and they're not just nodding their heads. they are enabling this president, in a very big way. now, when you talk to republicans privately, what they say to a person is what i reported that the president says. they know he is not going to win. but there are several reasons why they are continuing to nod their heads and to enable him. the most important, from -- from their point of view, is power. and by power, i mean, they want to keep control of the united states senate. and there are two outstanding races in georgia.

that is not going to happen until january 5th and they don't want to do anything to make the president so mad that he will either, you know, kind of throw a tran trum aantrum and say i'm to go help republicans in georgia or even undermine republicans in georgia. >> yeah. but doesn't it give them too much credit? because after that, after that january 5th date, their next excuse is, now, we're just terrified of the base. we're just terrified of all the president's supporters so we still can't talk. still, can't speak out. >> you're exactly right. >> thanks so much. coming up next. with the white house strategy -- i mean, you can't call it strategy. the white house careenin careening-forward movement it will attempt to be. later, bill gates on new vaccines and how to bridge the gap between now and when they become widely available. and what he thinks the next few months look like. a lot of great information from

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two big, breaking stories. georgia confirming a biden victory and ruling out widespread irregularities. also, dana bash and gloria borger's new reporting that revenge is blocking a smooth transition, according to a source. and against that backdrop, coronavirus task force briefing the public from the white house. cnn's kaitlan collins is there for us now. this is the first time the white house coronavirus task force

held a press briefing since july 8th. in the time since, about 120,000 more americans have now died of this. you were there today. i know you had wanted to ask the vice president about the transition. president-elect biden's team. how did that go? >> we had a lot of questions for him. but at the end of it, after they came out and everyone made their presentations, the vice president turned and left the room. even though, we had plenty of questions. here is a little bit of what it looked like as that was coming to an end. and you can see reporters shouting at the vice president. so, you can see the outrage in the room, as they are refusing to take anyone's questions, at the first coronavirus briefings in four months. if you ignored everything else that's going on, that, in and of itself, anderson, is outrageous

because, of course, if you ever seen how the virus is surging, there was no coordinated, national effort and how that is affecting what we are now seeing play out across the country. but it's also part of a larger pattern this week, where we have seen people who work for the federal government and are funded by taxpayer dollars, refusing to do their jobs by taking questions. that started with the press secretary, yesterday, who walked by reporters three times without taking questions. the vice president didn't take questions there. the pentagon chief didn't take questions on a troop drawdown, earlier this week. neither, did the national security adviser. so, it is just a growing effort where you are seeing federal-government officials refuse to take questions, anderson. and you got to think it's primarily because that they don't want to talk about what the president is doing. >> appreciate it. scott jennings, who served as special assistant to george w. bush. and cnn political correspondent, abby phillip.

titled "a bogus dispute is doing real damage." do you agree with that? >> yeah, i do, actually. i think what we saw today was a disgrace. i would say embarrassment but it was something worse than that. it was pathetic and it was sad. and at some point, you have to acknowledge the facts of the situation. i don't dispute it's extremely close in a few states but it's quite apparent that biden won and to drag the party through this is not good for the party or for president trump, who by the way, has amazing opportunities in front of him. if he would see it. he could help the party win races in georgia, in january. he's already delivered on the vaccine and the economy seems to be more resilient than people thought. he could really exit on an upswing here if he thought about it but doesn't look like rudy giuliani thought about that, today. and it doesn't look like the president has any interest in reigning him in. so i was mightily disappointed. >> abby, we now know the peace

of transition of presidential power, which people around the world look to the united states and, you know, are amazed at our history of that because you don't see that in a lot of places. but we now know it's not as secure as we thought it was. should we get used to the idea that presidents may not honor that -- that idea? is this going to be the -- the new norm? >> man, i really hope not. i think that the loss of that, even just for this period of time, is a real tragedy. and it's a real disgrace, as scott just put it. look. this is a president, who has flouted a lot of norms for his entire time in political life. but, at the same time, what is so much more distressing about this moment is that he is being enabled and supported by many, many people who know better. who do know better. who understand that, as scott said, this is not an election that is going to be overturned. when you look at the united states and its standing around

the world. what standing do we have, now, to tell countries around the world that they ought to respect the results of their election? when the sitting president of the united states is saying, now, that the only way that he would accept a loss is -- i mean, actually, that's not even what he is saying. what he's saying is that he will never accept a loss. i mean, that is an antidemocratic notion and it should be called out for what it is. so, yeah, i mean, scott put it really perfectly. but i would just point out one thing that i -- i gently disagree with my friend, scott, on. which is that, yes, this election was somewhat close but it's not as close as the 2016 election was. president trump's margin over hillary clinton in michigan was 10,000 votes, four years ago. now, biden's lead is 157,000 votes. at the end of this process, biden will have a more significant lead than trump did four years ago. and would have won the popular vote. so, you can characterize it as

somewhat close but it's really not that close. >> dana, i think scott makes a really good point. which is, there was an alternative, you know, future that the president could have charted. there was an alternative path he could have taken and, you know, make sure the republicans -- both senators get elected in georgia. you know, end on a high note. set up his legacy. i mean, maybe, he's not thinking about his legacy at all? or he just kind of assumes the name trump is, you know, all the legacy he needs? but history is not going to look back kindly on this absurd, i don't even know what to call, spectacle that we are living through. >> this is the hallmark of the trump era. and that is that donald trump, himself, can't get out of his own way. i mean, we could go down the list of real accomplishments that he can claim from his presidency. from renegotiating a trade deal

to, you know, criminal-justice reform. and he won't do it. he can't do it because the noise of him kicking and screaming and having a temper tantrum about his loss is completely drowning that out. and i just have to say that -- that scott is -- is a lifelong republican, and is a loyal republican. and the fact that -- that you, scott, just sounded so normal. and the fact that, that normal tone and tenor and the content of what you said was so jarring, in its normalcy, tells -- tells us everything we need to know. i mean, you just said what the -- the basic expectation should be of elected officials, in your party. and we haven't heard very many of them, at all. >> so, scott, obviously, look. there's, you know, there's no way to predict the next 60-something days. but once the president has left and -- and, you know, whatever. he'll set up, you know, he'll be a -- alternative -- he'll have megaphone. you know, he'll still be a big

power, obviously, in the republican party. what happens? i mean, do things -- you know, there are a lot of republicans who will still be beholden to him, still fearful he is going to run again. i'm talking about senators and congress people. happy he will run again. wanting to raise money for their campaigns and wanting the support of his base. so does he -- does this remain the party of trump, from now on? >> well, i mean, he will remain an enormously popular figure. i'm sort of dumbfounded he doesn't take advantage of the opportunities in front of him to end on a high note. he could be the most popular republican in the country and someone who is sought after to do all the things you just said. fundraising and campaigning and otherwise. i am sure he will by some. but i mean, you have a whole host of people who want to run for president but most are beholden to him or trying to inherit his audience. and so, as long as he is out

there rattling around, which i assume he will be for the next several years, all those people are frozen. and so -- so, he is going to have a chilling impact on those people who have been loyal to him. but now, want -- want to have their own chance in the spotlight. look. i think republicans are enormously grateful to trump for beating the clinton machine. for taking on the media every day. for doing things they don't think their establishment leaders would do. but the interest of the country take precedent over what you hope to have happened in the election. and that's what we are up against right now. political reality, versus what they wanted to have happen. and they're just not the same. and -- and it's -- what i saw today, anderson, i just -- i was stunned. and donald trump has the chance to exit office on a real high note, on a real upswing.

and instead, he is going to exit office with rudy giuliani on tv with his hair gel streaming down his face? i couldn't believe it. i couldn't believe it. >> yeah. yeah. scott jennings, appreciate it. dana bash. abby phillip. thank you. just ahead. breaking news from the cdc about thanksgiving travel as coronavirus cases and deaths continue to climb. and we are going to have a long talk with bill gates on the recent developments on the vaccine, as well as what he thinks the next year looks like and when things may actually return to some semblance of normal. fascinating discussion with bill gates, ahead. come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. n-n-n-no-no okay, give it a try. between wisdom and curiosity, there's a bridge. between ideas and inspiration, trauma and treatment. gained a couple of more pounds. that's good for the babies. between the moments that make us who we are,

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we're going to spend the rest of this program discussing the coronavirus pandemic and for the simple reason that it's

getting oout of control and getting worse. almost 1,900 deaths reported. on wednesday, 7,410 people were hospitalized. another, truly grim milestone. that number, currently, more than 252,000. almost as disturbing, is that we have heard nothing from president trump about that milestone. not that his words matter, at this point. but we've heard nothing. for perspective about the road ahead, we are joined now by bill gates. >> bill, our first conversation was back on march 26th. there were less than 2,000 americans dead, at that point. just over 80,000 reported cases. we've just now crossed a quarter million dead in this country and more than 11 million cases.

did you ever imagine it would get this bad, this fast? >> well, sadly, you know, this is an exponential phenomena. and we worried, even at that time, that it was going to be seasonal and, therefore, the fall would be tough. it's tragic but, yes, you know, in fact, it could have been even worse if -- if the pathogen had been even more fatal. >> i was once, years ago, in a malnutrition crisis and i remember i talked to a doctor named milton who works with doctors without borders in this remote place and one of the things, he was describing children who die because they didn't have access to an antibody that cost 25 cents or something. the vaccine exists. it was just a question of getting it to -- to the child, in -- in time. i mean, quarter of a million

deaths. these are people who did not have -- have to die. >> that's right. it's an incredible tragedy. you know, we'll look back and wish that we had done more, before the epidemic hit. and done a better job during the epidemic. the only good news is that the private sector innovation is going to come along with better therapeutics and the vaccine. and so, and over the next six to eight months, we need to do the right things. and then, the vaccine coverage will get us out of the mess. >> in -- in our first conversation, back then, you said you thought it might take as long as 18 months before we had a vaccine. that was seven months ago. we now have these two vaccines that are reportedly almost ready for emergency-use authorization. they both seem to have an efficacy of about 90 to 95%. can you just talk a little bit about what -- what these vaccines mean? how confident you are in them? or -- yeah, are you confident in

them? >> yeah. so the data's come out very much on the high end of what was expected. and that's good news not just for these two vaccines but there are several other vaccines coming along that have an even stronger antibody response. so we expect astrazeneca will probably get uk approval, not too long from now. there's some novavax and johnson & johnson will come fairly early, next year. and these vaccines are easier to scale up to get global coverage. so, the vaccine front is looking very promising. but we've got to stay the course, until we can get that vaccination level up to 60 or 70%. >> how was it possible to do this, so quickly? i mean, president trump says it's, you know, takes obviously responsibility for it. and i know the -- the, you know,

produ producing -- the i guess producing the vaccines at the same time as they are testing them, correct me if i'm wrong, that helped speed things up. but what -- what -- what -- what -- i mean, who gets the reacd credit here? >> well, the mrna. because the promise of being able to do something quickly looked great for all diseases. and so, mrna's going to be used for other infectious diseases, for cancer. this is something that had -- had been in the pipeline. pfizer, who got there first, funded all their own r and d. did all their own trials. they're, you know, a top-notch company. people -- most people do trust the fda. you know, i've been watching the fda process and the professionals there have done a great job of making sure that, even though they're moving quickly, they're not cutting corners. so, they -- you know, the pharmaceutical industry has

stepped up. there'll be many good vaccines that will, you know, by late spring, give us high coverage, and eventually global coverage. and some therapeutics that will help cut the death rate, in the meantime. >> want to talk about distribution of vaccines, in a second. but just -- you know, there is an emotional component to this that, you know, just as a citizen. you know, when i hear, okay, these vaccines are coming. 90-95% effective. there is part of me that -- and you know, i'm as big a mask wearer as anybody. well, not as anybody. as people who wear masks are and -- and i wish there were more of us. but there is part of me that just, psychologically, thinks, oh, well, as soon as the vaccine comes, you know, i can get rid of the mask. i can go to eat indoors, again. it's not -- i mean, is that -- i -- i feel like that's something i have to guard against. i don't want to get my hopes up, in that sense. but also, is that a danger in these vaccines that people think, suddenly, it's a silver

bullet? >> that's right. the, you know -- ideally, it would get people to say, hey, vi to i have to do my best behavior for these six to eight months, until the coverage is high. we're likely to get 2,000 deaths a day in january and february. so, up to about a peak level there and it's tragic. you know, it's going to add up to several 100,000 lives lost just in the u.s., alone. you know, and -- and we'll look back and say, why couldn't we convince people to just stay the course until we got up to that very high vaccination level? which will be probably late spring. >> i -- i think about -- you know, you hear about soldiers who get killed, ten hours or four hours before an armistice is signed. and, you know, people who, in the early 1990s, died from aids,

you know, days/weeks before the cocktail was -- was -- was available. i mean, it -- the idea that, you know, i think the latest from chris murray's team at imhe is, you know, 400,000 dead by the 1st of february. i mean, the idea that it took us ten months, that we could get to 450,000 by the month of february is just shocking. it just seems so tragic and so incumbent on all of us to try and lower those numbers. >> i couldn't agree more. the good news should pull us together. you know, help us to say, okay. it is a bit of a sacrifice. but, you know, we -- we will get back to normal. and, you know, thank goodness. if this had come five or ten years earlier, we wouldn't have

been able to get these things going so -- so quickly. so, you know, it's a little how the vaccine will be distributed. but we should have websites up now where people are getting their criteria and being told when they are supposed to come get the vaccine. but that -- that organization, a little worried about how well we do that. >> this is a dumb question but do you have like the coolest mask in the world? because i imagine, when i like to think of you, i think of you having the coolest life in the world. although, you're drinking diet coke so that's -- that's not great. i'm a former, big diet coke drinker. go for coke zero, by the way. but do you have a cool mask? or do you just wear a normal mask like everyone else? >> we actually did a video where i was putting on lots of different masks. but the mask i wear most of the

time is just a nice, black mask. sometimes, i wear those surgical, blue ones. not very fashionable. >> well, that makes you even cooler. so, the next, big hurdle, obviously, is dis -- distribution. i think that's the next, big hurdle in terms of the vaccine. distribution, storage of the vaccine. to me, it sounds like it's got to be stored in special refrigerators that are very, very low temperature. can't be like the hotel mini fridge. am i right about that? you know more than anybody about, you know, getting vaccines out there. how tough is this job? >> in the united states, the logistics are handleable. pfizer built a box that uses liquid co2 dry ice to keep the vaccine cold. so they've thought that through pretty well. so, the -- as soon as we can manufacture these vaccines, if we identify the priority people, the logistics will -- will be

just fine. the u.s. has a lot of delivery capacity and keeping these things cold is hard. but it won't hold us back. >> a lot of the distribution's going to end up falling on the shoulders of the incoming-biden administration. we are obviously in this, you know, i don't even know what adjectives to use to describe it but i guess surreal would be one. the trump team has not initiated transition, which means the biden team isn't being briefed. et cetera. how big a problem is that? i mean, how important is a smooth transition, from one to the other, in terms of vaccine distribution? >> yeah. the country's actually had some pretty tough situations during presidential transitions, which is bad luck. it makes the, how do we register people about how they took the vaccine, you know. particularly, given that the voice of science hasn't been foremost, here, with the top cdc people being people you know and who are talking about their plans.

so, i think it -- it could slow things down, a bit. i'm still hopeful that you'll see cooperation kick in here, pretty soon. i think the -- the biden team of people is a very good set of people, who have track records as scientists working on health care. you don't have any, you know, outliers, in terms of not believing in public health. so, it looks good to me. but, you know, every day you waste in terms of not getting that distribution and that clear message on behavior, could result in lives lost. >> have -- have -- have -- has the -- has the biden team reached out to you? can you say? >> yes. we're -- you know, we're -- we're allowed to talk to various people. and so, you know, we have longstanding relationships with a lot of those people. and a good, rich dialogue. of course, nothing -- you know,

they don't have any real impact, until january 20th. so, we're continuing to talk to the current team. but it's -- it's a bit fragmented with, you know, voices that aren't all that constructive. >> bill, we're going to take a quick break. we'll be right back because i want to talk about how you see the coming months. i use rakuten to get cash back in-store and online. i just got to shop online and i get cash back. i love using rakuten during the holidays, because i can get the sale and i can get cash back. and it's so easy and the best way to start off the new year. sign up today and get cash back with rakuten.

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philanthropist bill gates on the coronavirus, something that's sorely needs because as we reported early, more than 171,000 cases reported so far today. almost 1,900 deaths today. the foundation bill gates founded with his wife melinda has helped fund research into a number of diseases, including covid. we're thankful he could take time from his schedule to join us this evening. how do you think the vaccine is going to -- i mean how is it actually going to, you know, get in people's arms or shoulders? is it in doctors' offices? is it, you know, in a stadium somewhere? is it in a convention center or a hospital setting? what will that actually look like? >> yeah, that isn't as clear as you'd like it to be. given the numbers involved, it's possible that we'll use the same sort of drive-through approach that we used for testing. you know, it doesn't take that long to give the shot. you get the one shot, and then

you come back later for the second shot. and you'd like to have it all recorded so, you know, in terms of making sure that, you know, are there any breakthrough cases, that is, people who got vaccinated who got sick. we want to study all those breakthrough cases. we want to study to make sure there are no side effects. you don't want big lines because, of course, if you get infected before you get the vaccine, it doesn't protect you for that simultaneous infection. so organizing, you know, do people meet the criteria, not having long lines, just-in-time supply because of the cold chain. this is logistically complex, but it's way easier in a rich country like the u.s. to get that right than it will be as we start to get vaccines out to the developing countries. >> and, i mean, you've done

global vaccination efforts, polio and many things. by comparison in terms of difficulty globally, how does this distribution effort seem? i know you said it's complex. i think that seems like an understatement. >> yeah. well, the urgency and the numbers are pretty daunting. you know, if you end up with all two-dose vaccines, you know, we need over 10 billion doses to get to a high percentage of the world. and, you know, it's during a pandemic where you don't want to infect people. you have more bad rumors that are confusing people here than probably in other cases. but we've seen with polio, where we're down to only two countries with wild polio left, that even in tough places where the rumors will swirl, if we get the message out right, we get high coverage. in fact, africa has now gone three years without any wild polio. >> that's amazing. >> we thought for a while we'd

never achieve that, but that's -- we're very close to the end on that one. >> i mean you did that. >> well, there's a group that includes the u.s. cdc. rotary international deserves immense credit. w.h.o., unicef, and our foundation, those are the five leaders of this polio eradication. >> new york city just shut down schools yesterday. you think that's a wise move. >> i'm afraid so even though there's this huge long-term cost, and i hope we can get those schools back in operation, you know. if we can get, say, the teachers to be prioritized, i think then the unions will see that as an appropriate thing. you know, i do think the antibody therapies can start to bring the death rate down hopefully by early next year. but we're making hard tradeoffs

here. some jobs like construction and manufacturing, they have figured out protocols to the likelihood of infection is very low. so we're smarter in some of those things that in the spring, last spring, that we had to discontinue, some of those can be allowed because the protocols are very, very good unlike the bar where you're talking loud and in pretty close proximity even under the new restrictions. >> and obviously holidays have been catalysts for infection jumps. we saw with memorial, july 4th, labor day, next week thanksgiving, and then christmas, hanukkah. is -- i mean is there any doubt that thanksgiving could end up being a nationwide super-spreader event even though the cdc issued guidance today telling people not to travel? obviously people are going to travel. >> yeah, i heard that people were buying smaller turkeys, so maybe that means people are gathering in smaller groups. certainly, you know, i'll be with less family members this thanksgiving than i'd like to

be. you know, of course just seeing them on the screen is not quite the same. but, you know, by next thanksgiving, the vaccine, the great innovation there, will have brought this to an end. so, you know, one more round, probably six to eight months, we're asking people to make sacrifices to save a lot of lives. and then wearing the masks, which i don't consider that much of a sacrifice. >> so just to be clear, you personally are having less family at thanksgiving. you're not going to have what you would normally do, and that's something you would actually recommend for people just from a purely health standpoint? >> absolutely. >> we know the guidance is around what we should and shouldn't do when it comes to covid. we also have friends and families that are more relaxed in their approach to covid to say the least or simply don't abide by recommendations. what's your advice on how people should, you know, go about

dealing with that in their lives? i mean it's -- it's a difficult thing to deal with. >> it's awkward when, you know, like the family of your kid's best friend, you're saying, okay, how much should we talk to them about how they're dealing with this, or how do they ask you, you know, okay, what is your family doing because if you let friends get together at all, then there's a certain disease connectiveness that creates some risk. and, you know, i think we have to be pretty aggressive about figuring out, okay, amongst all the indirect contacts i have, are we doing things in a safe way? i mean literally there's no part of the country now that hasn't been touched in a pretty big way, and it was predictable that the people who were more lax, that eventually the disease would get there. there was a lot of talk about

that. sadly, it ended up being true. even in towns smaller than i expected it to get to, which it's deeply unfortunate. >> you sort of touched on this, but i mean, you know, the bottom-line question everyone wants to know is when will things go back to normal, which is an unknowable at this point, obviously. we don't know -- you know, there's still unknowns about the vaccines. we haven't really talked about therapeutics, but there are improvements in therapeutics. but in terms of playing out the next three months, six months, a year, is it realistic to think by next spring, there could be some semblance of normality in the u.s., or next summer, you know? >> yeah, i would say very likely by the summer, a lot of things will be back to normal. now, you know, there will still be a lot of people outside the united states, and that assumes that we get these other approvals and we get the logistics right. but, yes,