the team's been working around the clock.wire, we've had to rethink our whole approach. we're going to give togetherness. logistically, it's been a nightmare. i'm not sure it's going to work. it'll work. i didn't know you were listening.

good evening. there is news, tonight, from two or worlds. one real and one not. there is the actual world, we are all living in. and there is the one the president of the united states has created for himself. but we begin, tonight, with real news in the real world.

in the real world, even with vaccines almost here, we are on the verge of recording more deaths in a single day, than at any time in the entire pandemic. nearly 2,600 americans have died today, so far. that number will rise, throughout the night. which follows nearly 2,600 deaths reported yesterday, in total, and puts the death toll that much closer to 300,000. the number of people hospitalized with covid. that, too, is a record. more than 100,000. that is the lead story in the real world. and this is what the director of the centers for disease control and prevention says we are, now, facing. >> the reality is december and january and february are going to be rough times. i actually believe they're going to be the most difficult time in the public-health history of this nation. >> most difficult time in the public-health history of this nation. now, according to dr. redfield, today, the death toll could reach, quote, close to 450,000 by february.

450,000 human lives, in this country, lost, he warns, unless a large percentage of americans follow precautions, like mask wearing, social distancing, and avoiding travel and congregate settings. 675,000 americans died in the so-called spanish-flu pandemic. we may reach 450,000, by february, according to dr. redfield. at today's briefing, another senior cdc official put it bluntly. the best way, he said, to protect yourself and others is to postpone travel and stay home. that's tonight's top story. here, in the real world, the one we are living and dying in. in the president's world, meanwhile, where the white house has a string of indoor celebrations ahead, and which is on its third or fourth covid outbreak, depending on how you count. here's the reaction. >> the cdc director, today, said that the next few months could be the worst public-health months in american history. i wonder, does the white house, is it setting a good example for

the public for the white house to have in-person, holiday parties at a time when the cdc and other organizations are asking americans to forego those kinds of celebrations for their own safety? >> yeah. so, you know, if you can loot businesses, burn down buildings, engage in protests, you can also go to a christmas party. you can celebrate the holiday of christmas, and you can do it responsibly. which is why the east wing has noted that they'll have smaller guest lists. masks are going to be available. social distancing is going to be encouraged. hand-sanitizing stations, among other measures. but we will engage in the celebration of christmas and there -- there will be a hanukkah celebration, as well. >> but, hey, look, masks, social distancing. it's all so real world, so healthy, so best practices. who needs that? apparently, not the herd immunity guy, remember him? he already quit. keeping him honest, could stand to see something are going to be

available beyond masks. it might save the ones they love. and speaking of voting, here is another headline from the real world, from georgia's republican secretary of state. talking about the soon-to-be-completed-second recount there. >> looked like vice president biden will be carrying georgia and he is our president-elect. we have seen no substantial changes to the results from any county, so far. and that's what we expected. >> he went on to say, quote, we wish that our guy would have won the election. but it doesn't look like our guy has won the leksz. election. also, criticized the president for using, quote, the exact kind of language that is at the base of threat for election workers who are simply doing their jobs. that is a real-world trump supporter, in fact, almost pleading with the president not to do or say things that could get people hurt or killed. tonight, in the previous hour, erin burnett showed some video of the president's former campaign attorney, sydney powell, spewing conspiracy

theories about the election. here's his reaction. >> the reality is he's not going to win georgia. he's not going to win wisconsin. he's not going to win michigan. he is not going to win pennsylvania. he has the right to go to the courts, which they are doing. i understand they are filing an official-election challenge, tomorrow. everybody has due process. this stuff, what you just showed, it's ridiculous. and unnecessary and -- and, frankly, at this point, dangerous. >> just like his boss, that man is a republican. voted for the president. and like his boss, he understands reality. he is likely understanding a whole, new reality, as well. and that reality is that, this president, who he supported, has turned on him just as some in the president's orbit are turning on bill barr. doesn't matter how much anyone has before donald trump, he will turn on them in a second, if it suits his interest. the president, meantime, is not interested in reality, in the least. he released a 46-minute video.

we are showing precisely none of it because it peddles the same lies he and his team have been peddling since the election. again, in the real world, they voted for him. in the real world, there are two senate runoffs happening there, and voters are being told, by the president and his supporters, that the voting system is rigged. why vote? in the real world, republicans need those two seats to control the senate. yet, the fantasy-world rantings of the president may put that in jeopardy. that is how bat-crap crazy this is and many senators, republican, continue to play along. arizona's newest democratic senator, meaning, i guess, that he accepts kelly won the race there. yet, when asked by reporters whether he accepts the presidential election results, he ignored the questions. to his credit, he did not spend 46 minutes ranting about how the whole thing was rigged. to be fair, acknowledging reality should not really be or take a profile in courage. it's just reality.

and also, to be fair, it's not like the president doesn't selectively do the same. he acknowledges he's short of cash. so, he is fundraising like crazy, in such a way as to be able to put money into his own pocket. people think it's going to his battle for the election. it's not. he can do whatever he wants with it, unless you donate more than $5,000. he acknowledges that he, and the people around him, face legal jeopardy. so, he is said to be weighing a lot of pardons, including for his kids. he knows his influence is fading so he is floating the possibility of running again, in 2024. but he does not acknowledge the american people voted him out of office, or that a record number of americans are dying. those are realities. sadly, for the country, they are not his realities. our jim acosta begins our coverage from the white house. so, the staggering pandemic numbers, yet again, tonight. kayleigh mcenany, earlier today, downplaying the threat. what is the mindset of the white house, right now? i mean, are they -- is this just

like a west world of any man for himself, at this point? >> it's pretty unreal, some of the language you are using tonight, anderson. let me take you to the white house briefing we saw earlier today. kayleigh mcenany, came into the briefing room, and started to accuse democrats of hypocrisy on the coronavirus. and then, proceeded to tell the american people that they need to wear a mask to stay safe during this pandemic. which is great advice, if it weren't for the fact that they've been putting on a clinic in mask avoidance, over the last six or seven months of this pandemic. since it began, essentially. and, you know, beyond that, mcenany went on to say, on the subject of a coronavirus vaccine, that it should be called the trump vaccine. put aside the fact the press secretary is essentially comparing the president to a virus, in saying that. the president has essentially been out to lunch on the pandemic. he doesn't participate, by and large, in any of the task force

meetings that occur. but yet, he wants his name branded on this vaccine. and i will tell you, anderson, talking to trump advisers since the election. the same thing comes up, again and again, as to why these advisers say the president lost this election. it was his handling of the coronavirus pandemic. and so, you know, the press secretary can accuse others of hypocrisy. but they are bleeding of hypocrisy over here at a deadly time during this pandemic. >> i understand you have some new reporting tonight on possible, presidential pardons. >> that's right. i talked to a source close to the white house, who is close to the discussions on this. and this source said that the public should expect a flurry -- that was the word used by the source -- a flurry of pardons, before president trump leaves office. this source went on to say, among the president's advisers, there is a feeling that, yes, he can legally pardon members of his family. people like ivanka trump, jared kushner, donald trump jr., his personal attorney, rudy giuliani. and that, legally, this adviser said other advisers feel that,

yes, the president could go ahead and pardon himself. never mind, the fact that constitutional scholars say that is not constitutional. the president appears to be in a mood to try it out, and his advisers seem to be supporting him, at this point. >> jim acosta, appreciate it. more on that and the very real need so many americans have going into what could be a very grim holiday season. bernie sanders. senator sanders, thanks for being with us. the president dangling 2024 run out there. you have said that the republican party has, quote, virtually collapsed and become a cult. if president trump has a hold on the party for the next four years, does -- is there any hope of bipartisanship or getting stuff done? >> well, it's hard to say, anderson. but, what is unbelievably disappointing is that, when you have a president who is working overtime to sabotage and destroy american democracy, you don't have more than a handful of republicans who have the guts to say joe biden is president, it

was a fair election, and let's go on. the degree to which they are intimidated and frightened by this president is unbelievable. and it makes me see the republican party, today, as kind of a cult of the individual. that individual, being donald trump. >> i mean, the best-case scenario for democrats is to gain control of the senate with a 50-50 split with vice president harris and then casting the tie-breaking vote. they would need to win both georgia runoffs, obviously, for that to happen. what does it mean for democrats, in terms of actually getting things done during this administration? obviously, democrats, you, you know, joe biden, have been talking about a lot of big ideas. >> i think the american people, right now, want a president who understands that the times we are living in, anderson, are probably more dangerous than in any time since when franklin delano roosevelt took office in 1932. so, you got the covid pandemic, which has to be dealt. you got an economic collapse.

millions of people, tonight, are struggling to put food on the table. you got millions and millions of people, who have lost their healthcare. they are unemployed. all the while, we're seeing a massive increase in income and wealth inequality. and i think, what the american people want is for joe biden to get out there and say, you know what, we got a crisis, and i am going to act decisively. i'm going to use my executive orders when i can and, if not, i will demand that congress raise the minimum wage to a living wage. i'm going to demand that workers, women, get equal pay for equal work. that we cover all people, during this pandemic, with health care. that we lower the outrageously high cost of prescription drugs. we deal with the racism within our criminal-justice system. we deal with immigration reform. i believe that, that is what the american people want. and i believe we will succeed.

obviously, it will be easier if we win those two seats in georgia. much easier. but, even not, i think that is what the working people of this country want who are, today, in worse shape, economically, than any time, since the great depression. >> a lot of what you are saying, though, depends on -- i remember talking to you in the past. and i don't want to misquote you but just -- i remember you saying that, you know, to get some of these things accomplished requires, not only an outpouring at the ballot box but, also, an ongoing outpouring of people being involved. >> that's right. that's right. >> and there's -- there's a lot of folks, and i'm wondering if you -- you get this sense -- who are sort of exhausted and, you know, they feel joe biden got elected. democrats. and now, maybe are taking their foot off the gas pedal. >> well, we can't afford to do that. and i know that there are incredible, grassroots organizations working in georgia, working all over this country. bringing working people together to demand that we create an economy that works for all of

us, and not just the few. and i think that, if you had a president biden, a vice president harris, going to kentucky and asking the workers there whether they are satisfied with a $7.25 an hour minimum wage, you know what, i think mitch mcconnell may start to move. and i think that's true for republican senators all over the country. people are hurting, in a way that we have not hurt for generations. people want action, and i think if the biden administration is strong and forceful, and comes out with a list of proposals. and the american people are saying, yeah, that's what we need. of course, we should cover healthcare for all. of course, we got to stop being ripped off by the drug companies, who charge ten times more for insulin than they do in canada. and if we can rally the american people, even if we don't control the senate, i think we can get a hell of a lot done.

>> just in terms of -- i want to ask where you see stimulus negotiations going right now. do you think they'll actually be able to comp -- able to compromise with mcconnell, get something done? >> well, i think, in all due respect to leader mcconnell, his proposal is literally laughable. he doesn't have a nickel for unemployment supplements. we provided, in the past, at least $600 a week. he doesn't have a penny. all over this country, people are worried about being evicted. there's no $1,200 check for those people. so, i think his proposal is literally laughable. i think the other proposal brought forth may be a start for discussions, but we got to go a lot further than what that proposal now entails. for example, that proposal does not have the $1,200. i would do $2,000 a month stimulus check. but it's a start. but we've got to build on that.

>> the last time you and i spoke, you said that the progressive movement deserves a seat at the table in the biden administration. you have since said you'd accept the job of labor secretary. i want to play what he said last week when asked if he talked to you or senator warren about cabinet positions. >> i talked to -- look, as i said, we already have significant representation among progressives in our administration. but there's nothing really off the table. but one thing is really critical. taking someone out of the senate, taking someone out of the house, at particular consequence, a really difficult decision that would have to be made. i have a very ambitious, very progressive agenda. and it's going to take really strong leaders, in the house and senate, to get it done. >> what's your response to that? >> well, my response is on a -- two responses. number one. i think the progressive movement

in america probably constitutes, you know, 35, 40% of the democratic party. and i absolutely believe that those progressive, that movement, deserves representation in the biden cabinet. on a personal level, look. i am a very happy u.s. senator from the great state of vermont. if democrats gain control of the senate, i will be chairman of a very important committee. so, i'm content where i am. but i do believe that the progressive movement deserves strong reputation and has earned strong reputation in the biden cabinet so that we can go forward. and fight for the needs of working class and our middle class, today, that are really hurting. >> senator sanders, appreciate your time. >> thank you, anderson. >> just ahead for us tonight. dr. sanjay gupta and dr. scelin

gounder. later, special counsel robert mueller's deputy joins us to talk pardons, the president, and the law. also, breaking news. late reporting the possibility the president's getting ready to fire the attorney general. ncome. we look at what you've saved, what you'll need, and help you build a flexible plan for cash flow that lasts, even when you're not working, so you can go from saving... to living. ♪ let's go to show up... ...for the sweet. the hectic. the tender. the tense. and the fiery. but for many, migraine keeps them... ...from saying... ..."i am here." we aim to change that... ...with... ...aimovig, a preventive treatment... ... for migraine in adults. one dose... ...once a month... ...is proven to reduce monthly migraine days. for some, by half or more. don't take aimovig if you're allergic to it. allergic reactions like rash or swelling

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want to repeat and expand on our breaking-pandemic news, tonight. hospitalizations due to covid-19 have soared beyond the 100,000 mark. that has not happened in the span of this pandemic, before tonight. we learned that less than an hour ago. right after we got those numbers, the american ambulance association reported the american 911 emergency system is at a what they call, quote, breaking point. and today, deaths because of the virus have surpassed 2,500,

approaching the high point of covid death toll of 2,603 last april 15th. against this backdrop, the united kingdom says it will begin inoculating tens of thousands of people with the pfizer vaccine, next week. the chief of operation warp speed says as many as 100 million americans could be vaccinated by february. joining me now, a member of the coronavirus task force, and dr. sanjay gupta. so, dr. gounder, assuming, as it will continue, over the next few hours, the death toll will continue to rise. what is the path forward, right now, aside from just, you know, hunkering down, being as prudent as possible, until vaccines start to become widely available? >> well, i think you just answered it right there, anderson. i do think we really do need to be patient. it's going to be a while, yet, before the average american citizen has access to a vaccine.

and in the meantime, the same measures we have been talking about for months. the masks, social distancing, ventilation, spending time with people outdoors, as opposed to indoors. those are still our best tools here. and unfortunately, hospitals are getting overrun, overwhelmed. and that's precisely the situation, in which the mortality rate, the death toll, spikes. we are going to see an increase in cases and hospitalizations and icu stays and deaths in the next couple weeks. but, there's a lot that we can do over the upcoming holidays that maybe we didn't do over thanksgiving to prevent more of that from happening. >> sanjay, when you hear the american ambulance association saying they're at a breaking point, struggling to stay together. what do you make of that? have you heard that kind of statement, before? and what is the result of that? what would that mean? >> well, you know, we're used to being able to have these sorts

of resources in this country, right? you call 911 and you get that resource. an ambulance shows up. i mean, the idea, in the united states, you could run into a situation because they are at a breaking point with as much demand as there is, that, you know, you may not be able to get the types of services that we count on in this country. what do i think? i think, you know, i hear about field hospitals in rhode island. the highest death rates we have seen, overall, in wisconsin. california, thinking about going into stay-at-home mode, again. worried about overwhelming their icus, by christmas eve. it's sort of the boiling frog, at this point. you know, we have been reporting on it for so long, i think we've become a little bit inured to it. that's the sort of thing that obviously gets people's attention because pick up the phone, call somebody, and they can't come get you. that -- that's when you realize it's turned into a real disaster. >> yeah. and dr. gounder, a shocking number of americans right now fighting for their lives in

hospitals across this country. you are on the biden-covid transition team. do you have a sense of what you are going to be inheriting, in terms of hospital capacity? >> well, i think our biggest challenge, frankly, is healthcare workers. back in the spring, in march, april, into may, in new york city, when we were dealing with the worst of the surge here. we were able to bring in healthcare workers from all over the country to help us out. a lot of the doctors and nurses that i was talking to in our icu were from texas. and that's just not going to be an option, if the entire kouncoy is dealing with a surge. and the fact is you can't employ the defense-production act for healthcare workers. they take years to train. >> sanjay, uk has now approved the pfizer vaccine. >> i think it's a good sign. you know, i -- the data that we were looking at that we kept talking about, for some time. mostly, had just come from the company. you know, talking about 90% efficacy and things like that. you know, i didn't have any reason to doubt it but it's nice

to have, now, a regulatory authority, like the uk, that -- that has said, look, no red flags here, at least. we are probably going to have the same process sort of transpire in this country. i think we get a week to sort of see how things go in the uk because there's going to be a lot of challenges even after the authorization, in terms of distribution. i think, you know, how does it go over there? maybe, there's some lessons to be learned. so overall, i think it's good news for the -- for the world, anderson. >> and, dr. gounder, when you look at the approval process and rollout in the uk, what's the comparison like? and what will you be able to learn from that process? >> well, i think it's really important to remember this is not a race. and the fda is the preeminent dr drug-safety organization in the world. so, we really do not want them to cut corners. we want them to take or follow their normal processes in this approval process, so that americans can feel this is truly

a safe and effective vaccine. because it's not helpful to have vaccine on the shelf. what you want is for people to be willing to get vaccinated, to line up for vaccines. >> sanjay, the -- the chief adviser to operation warp speed said that 100 million americans could be vaccinated by the end of february. does that seem like a realistic number? and -- and does that mean, you think, both vaccines? if -- if they have to take a double dose? >> well -- yeah, so, i talked to him about that and if you start to do the math and you say 100 million by the end of january-february. it would probably mean that other vaccines have come online. i think he is sort of looking at the fact that johnson & johnson, as well as astrazeneca, are likely to apply for emergency-use authorization in january. we'll see. i mean, you know, we don't even have one vaccine, yet, that is emergency authorized. although, it looks very favorable. but i think, when you start to look at the doses, you're right. it's two doses per person for these two -- these two

front-runner vaccines. if you add in more vaccines, that's when you may be able to get to that number. but, i think, the other part of your question, you know, we have been presenting a lot of these numbers. going through the models. and it really does count on many things going right, not the least of which, you are dealing with a situation where you have manufactured vaccines, almost immediately, being distributed. typically, you have some sort of stock supply. we're not really going to have that luxury. for example, when the pfizer vaccine starts actually being used, there will probably be just under 7 million doses here. 3 million doses a week. but the point is you got to keep up. you get a bad batch, you may get behind. you may not be able to meet a certain state's demand. so, those are all considerations going into january and february. >> thanks so much. quick reminder. with vaccines on the horizon, please join sanjay and me on friday, 9:00 p.m., for a new coronavirus town hall. the vaccines. new reporting from "the washington post" tonight that president trump is considering firing attorney general bill barr.

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there is breaking news and it speaks to the president's state of mind as much to the state of the republic. it just hits t"the washington post." the headline reads trump is said to be livid at barr with one official suggesting termination possible. so, how angry is president trump at attorney general barr? >> well, for two reasons. he was described as livid by two white house officials today. one, ag barr came out and directly contradicted him on voter fraud. that they had done investigations, they had looked into matters across the country, they had not found any sort of substantive evidence that would overturn the election. and, two, because barr did not follow through on the durham report. that he wanted delivered before november 3rd, election day. and barr, even though he is appointed special counsel to continue looking into that, he

has not delivered the report that the president wanted. and yesterday, there was quite a -- with the president. he was described as angry again, all day, today. and folks in the west wing are trying to decide, right now, what the president is going to do. i don't think there's been any sort of final decision, at least a couple sources i spoke to about an hour ago. but there certainly is a lot of feeling that it could happen. >> i don't quite understand the point. i mean, he's got, you know, a couple weeks left. it seems odd that -- i mean, i understand that he's upset and livid, and stuff. but it just seems odd to me. i mean, given the blow-back barr is getting from the white house. i know you spoke to a source that told you why barr decided to speak out. what did he say? >> well, there was increasing pressure on barr to speak out because the president was making these claims every day. there was a lot of, you know, attorney generals across the country who were coming out and saying they weren't seeing it. and, you know, barr has not had the best relationship with rudy

giuliani, and sees him, frankly, as a sideshow and someone who is not in the best interest of the president. there -- there was lots of different concerns for barr -- barr to speak out. to your first point, anderson, you know, the president also fired mark esper the monday after the election. he fired chris krebs, his cybersecurity director. you know, he's fired more than a dozen people across the government and agency since november 3rd. you know, there is a time between now and january 20th where folks expect even more firings because he has nothing to lose and he's frustrated -- but in his mind, has not always worked to his satisfaction. >> what has the president's relationship with barr been like, over the last couple months? >> well, over the last couple of months, it's been quite tenuous. i mean, the president has wanted barr to make more forceful claims of voter fraud. to back up his accusations on that. he's wanted barr to put out, you

know, the durham report. he's wanted, throughout, attorney general barr to say more, without evidence, widespread voter fraud. and doj, much to the president's chagrin, has not been on the president's side on a lot of this. there are a lot of folks who would say bill barr's been one of his most loyal cabinet secretaries. obviously, after the mueller report, he was very rcritical o the mueller report. he's been very defensive of the president, in many ways. but it seems voter-fraud accusations the president's made over and over and over again is kind of a bridge too far for barr. >> yeah. he did make a comment. i think it was earlier, a couple months ago. saying, well, it would be very easy for foreign power to print up a bunch of phony ballots and -- and send them in. and -- and that would be undetectable. of course, he didn't offer any evidence of that. that seemed like kind of the farthest he went, backing up the

president on, you know, his fraudulent claims about the dangers of mail-in voting. >> right. that was a claim that something could happen, you know, hypothetically. what the president has been saying, in recent weeks, is that, you know, there were tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of fraudulent ballots. that entire dominion machines were corrupted. that, you know, there were foreign conspiracy with hugo chavez and other countries. farfetched, even for some of trump's biggest defenders in his orbit. what barr said that was contentious at the time, but he thought a foreign power could potentially corrupt ballots is different than what the president's been saying. which is that, you know, without evidence and by all accounts, experts and others, that they had done that, and they had corrupted the election. those are two different things. >> josh dawsey, preeshappreciat.

we booked our next guest to talk pardons but andrew weissman served as special counsel robert mueller's lead prosecutor. he is author of the new book about it. also with us, author of many best sellers, cnn political analyst, carl bernstein. andrew, what is your reaction to the "washington post" reporting about the president and the attorney general? >> so, i am a little more cynical about bill barr. he was perfectly happy to be the emanuencis for the president, when the president was riding high. and it's hard to not use the analogy of, you know, rats fleeing a sinking ship. and now that he is no longer in power, he's willing to separate himself. you know, i think it remains to be seen, whether he really pushed back on john durham, for instance, and really wanted to do the president's bidding.

i think there is a lot more to come, on that story. so, you know, i think bill barr. it's -- it's a little too little, way too late, to say that he's really having some integrity here. >> carl, what would firing the attorney general during a lame-duck presidency actually accomplish? >> it would make the base, perhaps, happy. and continue to project the image of trump as aggrieved and raging. everything that trump does is really about himself, his moods, his desires, his selfishness. but, what we're really seeing, and all the things you have talked about on this broadcast tonight, is trump is our first, truly subversive president. always, subtverting the interes of the people of the united states, the interest of our national security, the interest of people and their health and welfare, to his own selfish, financial, political interests. it's never about the country,

and this is one more instance of it. this is all personal. everything with trump is personal. and as a result, our national interest has been subverted by a president of the united states, in all these areas, including pardons that he is talking about. it's about subverting the national interest for donald trump's interest and the interest of his grifter children, his own grift. we've never seen anything like this and it's going to continue. and the people around him, some of them, are horrified. >> andrew, i'm just stunned by, time and time again, we have learned this lesson. and anybody who's been in the president's orbit certainly knows this lesson that, no matter how much you genuflect and prostitute yourself to the benefit -- to benefit this president, that, in the end, he will turn on you, no matter how much you have degraded yourself. i mean, jeff sessions, barr, all these people. you know, are left in tatters.

they're, you know, whatever reputations they once had. and the president chews them up and spits them out. you know, barr. now, if the president spits him out, he won't even get to make money on the lecture circuit talking to, you know, trump supporters. >> i -- i think that's true, although it's conceivable that barr did this, deliberately, to try and actually resurrect his reputation. and also, there are people who actually have sort of played the president correctly. i mean, roger stone was convicted, by a jury, and never spent a day in jail because he made it clear that, if he got a pardon, he would not be talking. so, there are people who can benefit from having this sort of very corrupt, personal interest that, as carl said, is really driving what happens in the white house. >> and, andrew, in your book, you drew a parallel between president trump's pardon power and the mob. you said mobsters use the threat

of whacking potential cooperators to keep everyone in line. the president had the power to pardon to reward those who stay loyal. i am wondering what you make of cnn describing a, quote, flurry of pardons yet to come. do you think it's legal for the president to pardon himself? >> i think the issue of his pardoning his friends and family, unfortunately, unless there can be a bribe shown, that is legal because the power is so broad. however, you cannot pardon for state crimes. you cannot pardon for future crimes. and the supreme court, you know, may have to decide the issue, whether you can pardon yourself. you know, clearly, that wasn't contemplated by the framers. but, we'll see if that ends up getting tested in a court of law. >> carl, i mean, if you are president trump, you have the powers of the office available to you for the next 49 days. what do you do? whom do you protect? whom do you try to punish? assuming, of course, he shows

little to no interest to protect the country from the pandemic. >> i think the first person he probably wants to protect is paul manafort. his campaign manager who was central to andrew weissman and mueller's investigation. and, whom, there is considerable evidence was in contact with russian principals and others and past information from the trump campaign, to the -- to the russians. and i would say, that pardon is almost certain, as are the pardons of his grifter children. one of the interesting things about pardon power is, though, it not only doesn't -- doesn't cover future offenses. and that goes to the question of lying. there are going to be a lot of investigations, ongoing. both, in -- in federal courts, federal u.s. attorneys, i'd imagine, and in state courts, that have to do with trump people, his family, his advisers, and others. and what the trump presidency is about is lying, above all else.

we've seen it this week, once again. and lying in future investigations is not covered by the pardon power. so, the pardon power. it's not absolute. i have no doubt, he's going to go ahead with these really unseemly pardons, which speak volumes to who he really is. back to this idea of a subversive president, willing to subvert the rule of law, the national interest, all about himself. and at the same time, i think we're getting a picture that, even the craven republicans, especially in the senate, are beginning to understand who they have protected all these years. and through this attempted coup in the final days of the presidency, trump continues to attempt a coup to undermine democratic elections in our country. and these republicans continue to enable it. and i think this is going to go, too, to their eternal shame. >> yeah. i think they, long ago, realized

who they were fronting for. >> that's right. >> yeah. andrew, president trump claimed in that rambling, propaganda video that we are not showing, that the same people who failed to get him in washington have sent every piece of information to new york so they can try and get him there. is he right to worry about the new york investigations into his family business? or, yeah, i mean, do you think he is right to be worried? >> i certainly would be. i mean, you know, it remains to be seen whether the manhattan district attorney's office makes that case. but, a federal pardon will have zero effect on a state investigation. whether it's tax fraud, bank fraud, money laundering, all of that, could be brought against donald trump, his children, his businesses. and, of course, you can't pardon yourself out of civil liability. so, those are all things to worry about. but, one thing that's important to note is, in spite of the president talking about, you know, this is just retaliation. criminal cases have to be proved to a jury of civilians, beyond a

reasonable doubt. proof is required. this is not a question of just retaliation. this is a question of, you know, whether someone has all the proof that can -- that can support those charges. >> carl bernstein, andrew weissman. appreciate it. thanks so much for being on the show. >> good to be with you. >> more next on president trump's thinking these days with his flood of tweets and, now, even that self-serving video we touched on. i will speak with the man who wrote the book that helped make him a celebrity, tony schwartz, next. ♪ come on! ♪ over here! ♪

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few people know this world and the man leading it better than my next guest, tony schwartz, author of "the art of the deal" and author of "dealing with the devil: my mother, trump, and me." tony, the president keeps dangling this idea he may run in 2024 as though that is what he should be focused on while so far today there are more than 2,500 reported u.s. coronavirus deaths. what does it say to you about just how messy the next 49 days may be? >> well, 49 days or four more years? >> yeah. >> of this. it's going to be -- it's going to be grim. it's going to be grim of course because of covid, but it's going to be grim because he's going to keep exceeding himself in the heinous decision he makes in order to bring the rest of us

down with him. but why -- you know, it's so interesting if you look at the front pages of newspapers, if you tune into cable shows, we're still talking about trump. we've got a new president, but the dominant topic of conversation is trump. why? i mean i've been thinking a lot about this, and it's that there's a core principle in psychology which is that bad is stronger than good. so if one person threatens you and the other person wants to help you grow and live a good life, which one commands your attention? trump is still a perceived threat. 49 days from now, i hope that diminishes dramatically, but it still feels that way. that is his one and only genius, to scare people. >> isn't that -- i don't know if that's called the negativity bias, but the thing that you can get -- i mean i don't -- you can get 100 tweets that are

positive, but it's the one that's negative that you obsess about and you pay attention to. you know, it's sort of the same idea at work. i mean the fact is he is still in office, and he's out there taking donations to the tune of $170 million under the heading of paying for baseless election challenges. i'm amazed how many people really believe him that this actually happened and are giving money, maybe not even realizing or not caring that it's not going to election challenges. it's going to a fund that he has access to that he can use really however he wants. >> well, it's -- it's mind-boggling, and it's frightening, and it's hard to understand that he has convinced 74 million people that the endless string of lies that he tells culminating in the lie

about who won the election -- i mean it would be one thing to make that claim if the election had been close. now we know it wasn't even close. and the thing about people who are authoritarians is that one of their key tactics is say it over and over and over again. if you look at trump's feed right now, this is all that's in the feed, one nonsense claim after another after another. and i've always felt that what trump -- what trump is instinctively so smart about is that at a certain point, people say, okay, okay. not everybody says that, but way more people say that than we would have hoped. >> yeah, i mean it exhausts you. at a certain point, people just give in, and i think that's what the -- you know, a strategy he's

pursued in business as well. it's just sort of his unrelenting shamelessness, and at a certain point, decent people start to say, you know what? i don't want to live in this world anymore. let him do whatever he wants in this particular instance. >> yeah. >> you've said before the president's, quote, loyalty is to his own survival. how much do you believe his own survival is now tied to his grip on the republican party? i mean does he need them for the next four years? i mean they, i assume, think that they need his -- you know, not his largesse but his support certainly. >> yeah. i mean that's clear that the republicans have decided that -- and this is just another descent that we've notched over the past four years speaking of shamelessness where they've made the decision that to the degree what they care about is their own survival, it won't happen if they don't go along with him.

and that includes the willingness to let democracy go. i mean i don't think this -- i don't, and i don't think most people think that this threat to democracy is somehow over the day trump goes out of office. he has taught his children well, and they have recognized that they are no longer bound by the truth. and as i said, probably to you multiple times before, it's a huge advantage when you don't have -- when you don't feel you have to tell the truth. >> yeah. tony schwartz, as always, i appreciate it. thank you. one late item that ought to intrude on the president's fantasy world but does not. just moments ago the country recorded 2,268 deaths from coronavirus in a single day. that's both the terrible new high and a horrible new low for this country. this subject is sure to come up with the president-elect sits down tomorrow night right after 360, 9:00 p.m. eastern time. just ahead, the president's

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earlier we reported on the, quote, flurry of pardons that the president may be preparing including some perhaps some for close family. on tuesday, ivanka trump, who is also presidential adviser, sat for a deposition involving accusations of misuse of inaugural funds. kara scannell joins us with the latest. >> reporter: we've learned from a new court filing that ivanka trump sat for a deposition yesterday. this was part of a lawsuit brought by the attorney general for the district of columbia, essentially the top lawyer in the state. he had sued the trump organization and the president's inaugural committee earlier this year, alleging that they had misused funds for the inauguration, specifically alleging they grossly overpaid for the use of event space at the trump hotel in