earlier we reported on the, quote, flurry of pardons that the president may be preparing including some perhaps some for close family. on tuesday, ivanka trump, who is also presidential adviser, sat for a deposition involving accusations of misuse of inaugural funds. kara scannell joins us with the latest. >> reporter: we've learned from a new court filing that ivanka trump sat for a deposition yesterday. this was part of a lawsuit brought by the attorney general for the district of columbia, essentially the top lawyer in the state. he had sued the trump organization and the president's inaugural committee earlier this year, alleging that they had misused funds for the inauguration, specifically alleging they grossly overpaid for the use of event space at the trump hotel in washington, d.c. so ivanka trump sat for a

deposition yesterday. she had been on emails where she was warned that the rates that were being quoted were quite high and the optics wouldn't look good when this became public. we also learned that the attorney general's office has also subpoenaed the first lady, melania trump, for documents relating to the inaugural. now, this investigation is a civil lawsuit, so the president's pardon powers cannot protect the family or the family business from this investigation. but it is yet another one of these allegations that have come out where they're alleging that the president has improperly profited from his position, and it's another lawsuit and investigation that will dog the president, his family, and his business even when he's out of office. anderson. >> fascinating. kara scannell, thank you. reminder, don't miss full circle, our digital news show. you can catch it streaming live, 6:00 p.m. eastern. that's it for us. the news continues. i want to hand it over to chris

for cuomo prime time kwiegs. i am chris cuomo, and welcome to "prime time." here's the fact. trump is the least of our problems. he is a simple study at this point. trump is toxic, period. sure, he's going to go out with a bang as in trying to blow up as much as he can. he is absolutely trying to make nothing better despite the fact that america is in a time of abject crisis. he knows this. he doesn't care. so he's not working on the pandemic that is worse than ever, that he's not making a deal happen on relief when more people are struggling to put food on the damn table than at any time in this country since my parents were babies during the great depression. trump is so far gone that i cannot in good conscience play the substance of a 46-minute spiel that he spewed tonight. it is lies and ugly suggestions that have a basis in nothing but

division and malice. it is a spiel. it is a con only to benefit his own coffers as followers continue, most in good faith, to donate to a cause for an alleged billionaire despite the fact that that cause is already over. but, again, trump, i argue to you, is the least of our problems. my focus tonight with you is on those who remain, those who empowered his deception, whose silence should deafen all ears craving decency. the gop is no more. it is the trump party. you electeds are nothing but retrumplicans now. if i'm wrong, where have you been for a month? trump has never produced a shred

of proof of any suggestion, and you know it. rudy, the other jesters -- no court has found anything significant to any outcome, and you know it. no republican in charge in any of the states in question says differently, and you know it. the guy you put in place at the federal level to secure the election says there was no substantial fraud. even bill barr, an attorney general that will be remembered for his bending over backwards to protect the president, even he says the election should stand. and what do we get from you? instead of echoing the obvious, you join trump in tearing down those who dare to defy. but it is you men and women who are in trouble. you have traded loyalty to oath and office to fealty to a toxic

man. who am i talking about? you got mcconnell. you got mccarthy of course. but specific examples -- marco rubio, senator from florida. he sounded the sirens during the campaign. remember when he looked at you and talked about the great ameri-con of donald trump. >> a con artist is about to take over the republican party and the conservative movement and we have to put a stop to it. donald trump is a con artist. >> i will never allow a con artist to take control of the party of lincoln and reagan. >> who knew that his awkward water grab would be far from his lowest moments? never say never. rubio has proven to be every bit as small as trump suggested by calling him little marco. he quotes the bible all the time, but he never speaks truth to power. ted cruz, senator from texas, urging the supreme court now to help overturn biden's victory. he offers no solid basis. this is about the loose ground

of an awkward appeal to other trumpers who, by the way, will never accept you. another sitting senate republican, the chairman of the homeland security committee, senator ron johnson urging the attorney general to show everybody -- ready? show everybody your evidence there was no mass fraud. are you serious? senator, please show us evidence that you are not a fool. let's make this easy. how about asking trump for the evidence that there is fraud? none of them has even asked, ever. we know why. they know there is no proof, and they know that it has nothing to do with the truth for trump or for them. you want the truth of how they would see this situation? just change an "r" to a "d" and go back four years. listen to what the person steering what was the republican party, the head of the rnc,

ronna mcdaniel, said about exactly what she's selling right now. recount efforts in michigan by jill stein. she was the green party candidate back then. our friends at cnn's k-file, they find you when you defy, and they dug this up. >> and our state who got 1% of the vote is now going to michigan taxpayers up to $2 million just so that we can do a recount that will not change anything, and she has not shown any fraud or inconsistencies with our election system. it's something she just thinks we need to do. we have integrity in our system. the votes were certified on monday. there's been no evidence of any election issues, fraud, or hacking. i think this is a wasted effort. i think it's unfortunate that she's putting the voters of michigan through this pro scess but i'm confident that in the end, donald trump will remain

the victor in michigan. >> what's changed? just her interest. not the circumstances. same thing here, not a shred of proof. that's why she and the others are retrumplicans. shame on you. fresh off his pardon, trump's disgraced former national security adviser is now openly encouraging the president to declare martial law and hold a new election. you can't say he ain't grateful. the tweet is here from flynn. how do republicans respond to this? silence. the suggestion of a coup, silence. overthrowing democracy is now patriotic? oh vaunted protectors of the flag. be honest and know this. the only flag you've waved for the last four years has been white, a sign of simple surrender, and look where it got you. sidney powell, trump lawyer-ish, kicked off the team, now urging georgians ahead of the runoffs,

don't vote. protest the state's november election results. another trump loyalist, lin wood, joining her, rallying the crowd to chant lock up the republican governor who certified biden's victory there. now what are you going to do? you see, when you stand for nothing, your party will fall when faced with anything, and that's what we are seeing in real time. but this is no time, just to point out the obvious about their problems. there must be light in the darkness. and there is a chance for crisis to allow both parties to show their best. when times are at their worst, people pay attention and hope for the best. what will we see? history gives us hope. there was division when fdr faced the depression. the new deal was not an easy sell. there was a lot of rejection of the new deal. so how did fdr rally the country and, thus, its representatives? a reminder that government's job

boils down to pretty simple securing of four freedoms for the american people, illustrated beautifully by norman rockwell and they live throughout history. you remember these. you've seen them. everybody thinks that's lincoln standing up, right? freedom from want. freedom from fear. freedom of speech. and freedom of worship. just the first two alone demand immediate action. this country has not faced fear or want the way it will over the next few months, not in a generation. the head of the cdc is finally using his voice, warning that the darkest months in u.s. health history are coming. we just surpassed 100,000 current covid hospitalizations, highest number since the pandemic began. today we broke another record for deaths, the highest number of a new number of deaths in a day. more than 2,600 lives lost. the united states could be close

to 450,000 deaths before february. we can't do better than this? oh, don't worry. there's a vaccine? when? not for months. and who told you a vaccine is a cure? you think you get sick, you get the vaccine, you're better? that's not how it works, and you know it. we need to rally this country right now to the remedies that we control. and our biggest need is leadership. congress must shake free from trump trauma. remember what once inspired you to seek office. do it now. i know you watch the show. thank you. so allow me to say to you all directly, what will you do now? not weeks from now. the answer may well define how you will be remembered. and remember this. i guarantee you people like me doing this job all over this country will never let people forget who stepped up and who

fell back. now is the time. the challenge is great. the stakes are high, and you are aware. for me and my audience, there is only one direction. it's to take it on. so let's get after it. chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta joins us now. you're finally hearing from the head of the cdc. what he should have been saying frankly for months. we get the politics but, you know, there's a time for bravery. he's now saying the darkest period in u.s. health history may be in the coming months. have you ever heard anything like that, and how might it take shape? >> well, no i haven't heard anything like that, and, you know, frankly he's comparing what is happening now to what happened 100 years ago. and, you know, we're obviously a very different society now. we have icus. we have hospital care. we have vaccines on the horizon, and yet these death rates are approximating what we saw 100 years ago. i think that's what dr. redfield

is reacting to. what he's referring to, you know, these numbers, chris, we've seen a million cases roughly a week of new coronavirus cases. so it's hard to fathom, and we know what trends after that, the hospitalizations, which are now over 100,000. and then a few weeks later, the deaths. we don't know where this is going to peak at this point. if you like at the ihme models, they say it peaks sort of the end of this year, beginning of next year. but the real question is how long does it stay there, then? how long does it plateau? chris, i got to tell you, i dug into these models pretty closely, and, you know, many of them are sort of contingent on this idea that there are going to be many statewide mandates that either stay in place or go into place over the next couple of months. if those things don't happen because we're still not seeing them, the number of people that they project could die by march 1st is 650,000. so that just gives you an idea. it's like that boiling frog.

i think we've become so used to hearing these numbers and the hospitalizations and hearing about ambulance systems that are starting to fall apart and field hospitals in rhode island, high death rates in wisconsin, surge capacity being overflowed in california. i don't know how you could describe this as really any worse, but i think what dr. redfield is saying, it still can get worse than this. >> so he's making an appeal to public health officials all over the states to try to convince their residents. i don't think we should waste time preaching to the converted. there is really one basis of pushback for people, and you mentioned it early on as an opposite component, a reason for concern. people will say, hey, look, i get it. people are getting sick. nobody dies. nobody dies. look at the death rates, per case, per capita. it's so small. yeah, 230,000, 250,000, 300,000, that's a lot, but look at all the other things that we ignore in this society, sanjay.

they kilotl tons more people, cigarettes, booze. but now you want to shut down the whole economy and ruin everybody's life that something that barely anybody dies from when you look at it on a big scale. what do you say to that? >> well, i mean, they're wrong. i mean that's what i say. first of all, this could be the second leading cause of death in this country as things are shaping up now. i mean it could be that only heart disease would actually lead to more deaths. that's typically 600,000 to 700,000 people a year die of that in this country. this could surpass that, chris, for a disease that didn't even exist really a year ago. so that's part of it. the other part of it is that the vast majority of these deaths are preventable. the vast majority, chris -- i mean we've gone through this so many times now, comparing here in the united states to other countries around the world. they don't have things that we have. they don't have some therapeutic or a vaccine that we don't have,

and their death rates are a minuscule fraction of what they are in this country. so therein lies the frustration. you're right. people die of other things. they die of heart disease. they die of cancer. they die of stroke. they die of trauma, all these other things. there's these depths of despair that have lowered the life expectancy in this country even prior to this pandemic. but what we're seeing here is an unmasking of all these terrible things. we are a more vulnerable country because we have so many more pre-existing conditions and comorbidities. but it's an incredible source of frustration because the numbers that we show on the screen every day, they didn't need to happen, the vast majority of them. and i hesitate when i say that because i talk to so many of these families who have lost loved ones over this past year. and the last thing they want to hear is their loved one died a preventable death. but what else can you call it at this point? these are stupid death as the doctors without borders call them. that's what i tell them. >> people see the vaccine as an

unqualified good. i'm worried about the states making decisions. they're not going to have enough of the vaccine even if they follow the criteria of who's supposed to get it, starting with hospital workers and then long-term care, elderly recipients. but hospitals in what areas? what kinds of hospital workers? which long-term care facilities? is it going to be the rich ones? is it going to be based on color? is this going to be based on class? these are big choices that we won't really be able to monitor, you know, with one general oversight. that's my biggest concern about something that everybody sees as an unqualified good. am i getting it right or wrong? >> no, i mean, you're absolutely right. this is going to be a resource-challenged sort of distribution process. i mean this is something that everybody wants or the vast majority of people want, and there's not enough. so how this is going to be handled is -- i mean it's unprecedented what we're going through right now. i hope many of the things that you're mentioning in terms of the institutional, structural

biases, i hope they don't permeate into the distribution of this vaccine, but i think it's a very real concern. i'm curious to see what happens in the uk over this next week as they start to distribute the vaccine, hiccups that maybe we couldn't even anticipate. but you're right. i will say this. the states are going to have to make some decisions in terms of triaging these vaccines. we know that. but health care workers across the board, there's 21 million in the various locations we just put up on the screen for a second. not all of them are the same in terms of their risks for covid. i'm a health care worker. i'm a neurosurgeon. i don't primarily take care of covid patients. i have colleagues who do. that's all they do. they're in full personal protective equipment all day in those intensive care units taking care of those patients. they're at the highest risk. so those type of triage decisions are probably going to be made not only at the state level but at the institutional level and perhaps even within these long-term care facilities as well. it's not going to be perfect, chris, and there's also this issue of almost as quickly as

this vaccine is being manufactured, it's going to be distributed because there's such a tremendous need. if you get a batch wrong because there's 20 to 25 quality control checks they've got to go through before they're released, let's say one doesn't make it. well, all of a sudden, you're going to be even further behind. so it's going to be -- there's going to be some stutter starts here for sure, and there may be some inequities that hopefully get addressed very quickly. but right now, as has been the case for the last nine months, chris, there isn't really a national leadership. there's no national plan. people are sort of left to scrap and figure it out for themselves, beg, cajole, and plead for these vaccines and then figure out how to best distribute them. >> it's no way to do it because what have we seen? the virus hurts the most vulnerable, and the system tends to not put them first either. but we'll stay on it. that's what our job is. we'll stay on it. dr. sanjay gupta, thank you very much. >> you got it. >> all right. so the obvious became news again

when bill barr came out to definitively say as attorney general of the united states, there is no proof of election fraud. when the president's own attorney general undercuts his claims, shouldn't he be taken seriously? now we hear trump's upset. barr may lose his job. new developments on that, and we're going to take it to one of barr's predecessors. former g.w. bush ag alberto gonzales, next. research shows people remember commercials with nostalgia.

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who would have thunk it? bill bend over backwards barr, the attorney general, now finds himself in hot water with his boss for telling the truth, for not backing this flood of b.s. about voter fraud. sources tell cnn officials are trying to talk a frustrated president trump out of firing bill barr. why? everybody knows what he's about. it's not loyalty. it's fealty. if you don't do what trump wants, you're out. he's an autocrat. he's not a democrat. he's not a republican. he's never been those things. he's about himself. that's why his party is now a

bunch of retrumplicans. i don't know what they stand for except listening, lower their eyes, and doing as they're told. let's discuss this perception with a man who once held bill barr's job, no stranger to controversy. but he knows what his party used to be, and he can compare to what it is today. attorney general under george w. bush, alberto gonzales. dean, good to see you. >> chris, it's good to be back. >> so what do you think of my appraisal of what has happened to your party? a month of silence as our president, its nominee, says the election was a fraud and puts up not a scintilla of proof about the same, and silence from every significant member of your party? >> chris, i think he was on this network a week -- within a week of the election, where i said, my gut, my brain, my experience tells me that joe biden won the election. and since that time, i've seen

no evidence to change my position, and we now have the attorney general confirming the same thing. i also said publicly that i was troubled by the fact that the attorney general, given his recent criticism or concerns about mail-in ballots, was directing people at the department of justice to do an investigation about possible mass fraud in this election. to me, the timing was -- was unfortunate. but i think we're in a place now where the transition is moving forward, and i think come january 20th, president biden and his team will be ready to administer and govern this country, and we need him to be ready. and i think he will be ready. >> but how we get there is pr predictive of where we go from there. and you have mitch mcconnell, head of the senate, obviously senior member of your party, refusing to say that biden is president-elect. other people in office won't take the question. they say, we have to see where the litigation goes. they know it's going nowhere.

in 2016, they dealt with this then in michigan and in other states, and they shot it down the same way it's being shot down now. what does it mean to you that they refuse to state the obvious? is it just fear of this president, or is your party no more? >> well, i can't speak what the party is today. from my perspective, chris, as i just said, i think what's really important here is that the transition is moving forward. i think come january 20th, there will be a transfer of power. we will have a new president, and we'll be governed by new policies. so i think that right now, yes, there's litigation going on. there's controversy going on. but this is going to move forward. this is the way our government and our country has operated for hundreds of years, and we'll continue to move forward. i have faith and confidence that's going to happen. i have faith and confidence mcconnell will ultimately -- he'll be standing up there on january 20th.

i'm quite comfortable with that. i'm quite confident that's going to happen. and we will move forward, chris. i have to have faith in that. >> i like the confidence. i'm a friend of faith. but we've never seen anything like this before, dean, and you know that. when you were a.g., controversy was you firing nine u.s. prosecutors and people saying that you were politicizing the office. i wouldn't even cover that today in this climate given what bill barr has done. things that you would be shaking in a sweat out of a nightmare just suggesting it in a dream that you might do these things. this transition was held up for weeks with the tacit complicit of members of your party. we've never seen anything like this. don't you think there has to be accountability for how we got here if we want to move forward in a better way? >> well, look, i think we take our lead from some of the comments from president-elect biden. i think he's looking forward.

now, there will be many people that want to look backwards, perhaps, you know, hold people accountable. but what's really important, chris, and i think the american people are with me on this, we need to look forward. we've got so many serious issues confronting our country, and we need to help president biden be successful in addressing those issues. so, again, i don't want to get so wrapped up in what's happened in the past. let's focus more on what lies in front of us and what we can do to make this a better country for everybody. >> as long as it's not predictive of the future. if this culture of opposition, why i call the republicans -- and, look, i got republicans in my family, so it's not a personal beef. but i say retrumplicans because they won't say anything unless trump says it's okay. why do we think they'll make a deal? you got 200,000-plus dead, the worst unemployment we've seen in generations. they didn't make a deal for relief. mcconnell came back from break. he cut the deal in half, dean. i don't see why we believe

they'll do anything better than what they've done that gets us here. >> chris, my own belief -- you know, when you're president of the united states, that's tremendous power. it's the most powerful position in the world. donald trump will no longer be president of the united states. will he still wield some influence? yes, he will. but he won't, in my judgment, wield the same level of influence. and i'm hopeful that sound, mature leaders in the republican party are going to step up and do the responsible things to help the american people, to work with the democrats, not compromise their ideals and values, but to find solutions to the problems that confront our society. >> i'd just like to know what those ideas and values are in light of what they've been complicit with by being so quiet. let me ask you a legal question. self-pardon. it's not in there. there is no guidance. it's been bandied about a little bit in literature but not tested in courts. what would you think if president trump self-pardoned? >> chris, there's nothing in the

constitution that prohibits a self-pardon. our framers clearly understood how to limit that pardon power because they limited it to federal offenses. and so here you've got an action that's -- it's not a judicial act. so some people say, well, how can a man be a judge in his own case? this is not a judicial act. the act of granting a pardon is an executive action. it's in article 2 of the constitution. so from my perspective, even though i may not like it -- and you're right, no courts have ever ruled on this. i think he can make a very strong argument that the president of the united states can, in fact, issue a self-pardon. >> you think it's a good thing to do? even if you have the right, is it right? >> absolutely not. i don't. but i do believe that what the framers intended that for a president that does something so heinous as perhaps a self-pardon, that the remedy was to impeach him and to remove him from office. that's where i think the framers intended to respond to an action

like a self-pardon or other -- you know, other high crimes and misdemeanors. >> alberto gonzales, dean, thank you very much for coming to us. the best to your family for the holidays. and i hope your faith is rewarded with what we find in our future. >> it's got to be, chris. appreciate it. thanks. all right. the president's only niece warned us do not give my uncle four more years. the scariest part, though, to me is she says, oh, you think this was the bad part. no. the worst is yet to come. why? mary trump says she's got the answer because she's working on a new book that examines exactly this. let's get a little insight next. ♪ anywhere convenience. everyday security. bankers here to help. for wherever you want to go. chase. make more of what's yours.

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so now what? when trump's gone, isn't the problem over? i don't think so. i think the people who remain

are the problem, but now i have another take for you. even as the biden transition is under way, the president's desperate cling to power is actually having an effect on our political fault lines. my next guest says that's what you need to look at. it's not just about if trump got another four years, but as a clinical psychologist who delved into his psyche and understanding the effects that he can have, now that he's on his way out, mary trump still doesn't like what she sees because of what the impact could be even after he is gone. how so? mary trump, the president's niece, author of "too much and never enough," has a new book coming out in july about exactly this. mary, good to see you. the book is called "the reckoning." isn't the reckoning what happened in the election that is getting him tossed out, or is it going to be something else in your estimation? >> hi, chris. yeah, i wish it had been the

election, but unfortunately two things. one, we didn't get an immediate result, which we should have been prepared for but weren't. and, secondly, biden didn't win in a landslide, which is really what we needed in order to repudiate donald, his administration, and all of his enablers. so what's happened now is it's given him an opportunity to continue to sow division, to continue to act as if there was some discrepancies with the final vote tally to delegitimize the incoming administration. and because republican leadership refuses to take a stand and speak the truth, donald has even more of an opportunity to, you know, stoke his base and sow division among us. and it is very, very dangerous. >> i would like to counter your

case. i could argue that biden has the same electoral margin that trump called a landslide. he had the most people ever come out for him in history. but i agree with you because the second most votes ever went to trump, and they did well on the congressional side. you can look at that either way, saying that people who are still having misgivings about democrats still voted against trump. but how is the worst yet to come? >> that is going to depend largely on donald's post-inauguration life. it's going to depend on how the biden administration, or at least biden's attorney general handles what may or may not have happened in the past four years, particularly in the 79 days between the election and the inauguration. and it's going to depend in part on, you know, whether or not we're going to see state

charges. i don't hold out much hope for the republican party, which is why i didn't mention them. i think they're going to continue to do what they believe is in their best interest, which for them is always clinging to power no matter what it might do to the rest of the country or our democracy. >> your uncle the other day said to a crowd, we're trying to get four more years right now. if not, i'll see you in four years. >> i -- i think that's a ploy. that's a means to get people to continue to support him financially. it's a way to get people to keep coming to his rallies and to -- you know, i believe he's trying to counterprogram the inauguration of president biden.

so i don't put much stock in that for various reasons. first of all, i hope that donald's going to be a little bit too busy fending off creditors, dealing with lawsuits, and dealing with those potential state charges -- >> well, they keep filling up his coffers. he's at $170 million now. he can use it for whatever he wants unless the donation is over $5,000. and i don't know how many of those he has. we'll see what they disclose. but it seems like his "help me fight this election" may be "help me fight for my own better future." >> it may indeed. and, you know, i think it's disgraceful of course, but the people who support him are throwing money at him willingly, and i don't -- i honestly don't know what to say to them. that's their choice. >> you don't think he'll run again? >> i don't. i don't think he's going to be able to. i think that he's much more likely to take the position of

spo spoiler because he lost so decisively and because he cannot bear the thought of losing, he's going to put considerable energy, at least as long as he's able to, into delegitimizing joe biden's win and his administration, which again is terrible for our country. and i think at that point we need to look at the republicans in power and, you know, lay the blame at their feet at that point because they would be in a position to stop this insanity, and thus far they seem not to be willing to do that because they know they need donald's base. >> the retrumplicans. is the worst we should expect to see out of your uncle between now and the end just a frenzy of weird pardons and maybe a self-pardon, or do you think he has what it takes to tell people to resist the inauguration? >> i think we have some glimpse

of what he's capable of in what's going on down in georgia. an election official in georgia, who from what i understand is a republican, has made a plea to donald and republican leadership to stop sowing doubts about that election because it's putting people's lives in danger. so what does don't do? he doubles down. he doesn't care. you know, he's going to do whatever he needs to do to change the subject, to keep people on his side, to keep people believing that he actually won an election that he lost by at least 6 million votes. so we need to be on our guard and continue not to put anything past him because, yes, the pardons are demoralizing. they're a disgrace. and his, you know, attempt to preemptively pardon his children and himself, you know, we'll deal with that when the time comes. what i'm much more concerned

about is what's going on behind the scenes. so we just need to -- we need to be vigilant. >> get the book out. it's coming out in july. you may want to rush it because we're living that consequence right now. mary trump, be well. thank you for the insight. >> thank you, chris. all right. a word for you here about a cnn special event tomorrow night. you're getting an upgrade. "cuomo prime time" is off. jake tapper is here interviewing president-elect joe biden and vice president-elect kamala harris. their first joint interview since winning the white house. you do not want to miss that. i won't be on, but i'll be watching tomorrow night, 9:00 eastern, of course only on cnn. all right. we're going to take a break. when we come back, time to test congress, okay? they've got to step up. we've never had it this bad. where is the relief? what's going on with the stimulus? how will it be different this time? and by that i mean better, not worse. a big question that you may not have heard answered yet, but you

will now. hey, we learned last night that a big bunch of the money they're offering in their new plan is money from the last plan that was never spent. why? a house powerhouse just took on trump's treasury secretary. you know her as member of congress katie porter, here next. how about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. ♪ ♪ you're all, you're all i need ♪

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the worst u.s. health crisis is coming that they've ever seen says the head of the cdc. worst number of hungry americans since the great depression. now congress is just talking about helping for the first time in months. they haven't met since october on this at the top level. at the same time, we're learning how badly the last covid relief plan got screwed up. $455 billion wasn't spent. a good reason for that? if the trump administration gets its way, it's going to be harder for the biden administration to spend it. that's why the current traeeasu secretary found himself answering questions like this

today. >> i'm reading aloud now from section 4027 of the c.a.r.e.s. act. on or after january 1, 2026, any funds that are remaining shall be transferred to the general fund. in other words, sent back to the treasury. secretary mnuchin, is it >> of course, it's not 2026. how ridiculous to ask me that question, and waste our time. >> well, secretary mnuchin, i think it's ridiculous that you're play acting to be a lawyer. >> actually, i have plenty of lawyers at the department of treasury, who advise me. >> secretary mnuchin, are you, in fact, a lawyer? >> i do not have a legal degree. i have lawyers that report to me. >> secretary mnuchin, you are trying to tell chairman powell to send over any remaining fund, right now. and you're claiming, falsely, in my opinion, that that is what

the law states. and you have gotten into a disagreement with someone who is actually a lawyer. >> are -- are you a lawyer? >> yes, she is. representative porter is a lawyer, from harvard. law professor at uc irvine. but you don't have to be a lawyer, to figure out what's wrong with this picture. here's our guest, now. congresswoman, welcome back. >> thank you so much. delighted to be here. >> look. you know, the problem that you're dealing with right now is that they're banking on the money not being spent, so it can go back to him, which seems to be assuming failure. my question is let's take a step backwards. why didn't all those billions of dollars, hundreds of billions, get spent when the need is so great? >> the explanation for that goes in the lack of oversight, that was baked into some of these programs, at the start. and so, in this case, the money went to the treasury. the treasury transferred to the federal reserve. and the federal reserve spent only a portion of the money. now, it's not necessarily a bad

thing because we still have a great deal of economic need, and that money can be used to help businesses reopen, to rebuild customer, to train employees. but secretary mnuchin is trying to stop that. he is trying to take the money, claw it back, from the federal reserve, even as mr. powell, a chair of the federal reserve, a man not known for hyperbole, says that the economic outlook is extremely uncertain. so, we need to listen to him, leave the money where it is, and allow the federal reserve to step up and use that money, to lend to cities and states because they are in dire needs of funds, and they're the ones on the front lines of this crisis. >> yeah, look, i mean, i'm pointing it out because that was true then, too. right? and suffering is a coefficient of pain and time. so, time has only made a lot of things worse. that's why i don't know why the

money wasn't spent, then. and my concern, now, is why should we expect any better? what reforms are in place to make sure it's more efficient, getting more money to more people? and not doing the other thing we saw last time, which is giving money to the banks, who give the money to their friends in bigger businesses and not those small businesses that we need to feed in our economy, right now. >> well, so, two different programs here. one is the federal reserve ec -- emergency economic stabilization fund. and, there, i have a lot of confidence in treasury appointee, janet yellen. this is somebody who ran the federal reserve. she is going to work very, very hard, and knows every trick in the book to make sure that the federal reserve is doing its work. where we see really bad transparency problems. on the one hand, the federal reserve, it didn't spend the money. and that's a problem, i agree with you, chris. but, what we saw with the paycheck protection program is, in some ways, worse. we have been crying out.

my office has been pushing for transparency for this program, from day one. and we finally got that data, yesterday, and what did we learn? we learned that paycheck protection program money, designed to support and hold up the smallest businesses in our economy, went to trump and kushner properties. and 600 billion of it went to just ten -- sorry, 600 -- i want to get this right -- 600 businesses -- 600 businesses, each, got $10 million. 600 business, each, got $10 million. and yet, we can't get the senate-majority leader to give people money to put food on the table, and keep a roof over their head. >> how do you stop that from happening, again, in terms who gets the money? i'm told that the problem was that the money was given to banks, and for the banks to use the discretion of who to exercise, unless you were taking

care of any favors on the state side. so, how do we not have that happen, again? >> well, i'm a proponent of a somewhat different approach that would achieve, i think, the result we are aiming for even better. it's called the paycheck recovery act. and what it would do is use the irs as a tool. use the wage data that we already have to allow people to continue to receive their paycheck, even if they are unable to go to work or their business is shut down. or they've been laid off. and this would take out the middleman of the banks. it would, also, make sure that the government funds are going directly to support payroll. to support wages. to keep families out of food-bank lines and off the streets, from being homeless. so, this is a much more efficient way to spend the money, ensuring that those who need it, get it. >> they need the relief checks, congresswoman. you got to fight for the relief checks because if it's just through the programs, all that does is isolate need. but doesn't reflect the reality, that so many people are fragile.

and that $600, that $1,200 for rent assistance, that kept a lot of people from going under. you know, they weren't thriving. but if you neglect them and it's not in the proposal right now, that's been offered up by those problem solvers or whatever they call themselves in the senate, that's going to be a problem for people. you think you can get the checks? >> i hope so. and one of the things that's making me really frustrated right now is when i hear people talk about this as stimulus. let's be clear. it is not stimulus money, to give people money so they can feed themselves. so that, they can keep heat on in the winter. so that they can avoid eviction. that's not stimulus. that is basic needs that we're talking about meeting, and you're absolutely right that it's not enough to just do some unemployment. it's not enough to do more with food assistance. people need that direct assistance. and all of the research on this, interestingly, shows that

direct-cash money to families, allowing them decide how to spend it, actually, is the most efficient use of our tax dollars. partly, because that money can't be distorted by special interests, like wall street banks, along the way. >> i'll tell you what. secretary mnuchin doesn't like you and that's okay. >> well, that's okay. i don't like him. >> that's -- well, i tell you what, you asked him the right questions and the way he answers them says everything about where we are right now. i hope we get to a better place. we'll see what happens with those who remain, after trump is gone. congresswoman, the best to you and your family going through to the holidays. katie porter, thanks for being on the show. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. d'shea: i live in south jamaica, queens, born and raised. i'm a doordasher, i'm a momma with a special needs child, she is the love of my life. doordash provides so much flexibility. if something happens with her, where i need to be home, i can just log out and just say "okay, my family needs me."

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