instead, ms. powell has done nothing but undermine it. but there are so many different rules of professional conduct. you cannot bring frivolous lawsuits that are not based on fact or the law. you cannot engage in conduct that involves dishonesty or fraud or deceit or deception or misrepresentation or that is prejudicial to administration of justice. you cannot knowingly present evidence that is false or misleading or make misleading claims. she has broken each and every one of these tenants in every single one of her cases. and if you just take the michigan cases alone, she has breached and every one of these codes of conduct. >> one thing that's not clear is it's not clear who sudden knee powell is serving at this point and in what capacity. even rudy giuliani says she's not part of the campaign team and doesn't speak for the

president. not withstanding the part she's been at the white house three of the last five days. how much does that matter? >> well, this legal team, the representation of the president and his campaign is not exactly a well-oiled machine. i really wouldn't call it bush v. gore on either side of the v. i mean, it's been kind of a mess from the very beginning. it's unclear to me. i don't know if she's doing this at the behest of the president. i don't know really what the situation is. all i can tell you is that it's incredibly unprofessional and these are flagrant lies that ms. powell is submitted to of all places the united states supreme court in some instances. and it's disturbing and i think that it undermines our entire profession and she has to be held accountable. >> what does it tell you that someone like this or someone you're describing has been invited to the white house three times in the last five days? >> i mean, is it really surprising in light of all the

other news that you're broadcasting tonight? you know, this is a president who, you know, surrounds himself by people who are wholly and completely lagging in integrity of any kind. so, is it surprising to me? no, nothing that this president does at this juncture surprises me anymore sadly for our country, for our nation. >> we began this broadcast and you waited patiently to speak to us until the end of it with the news that the president has issued all these pardons, includi including to convicted murderers, confessed liars and corrupt politicians. your reaction to that? >> well, as a prosecutor myself who has an entire division devoted to integrity cases where we hold officials accountable when they've breached the public trust, all i can say is it's incredibly disturbing. there's really no way to overstate that. all i can think about is not

only the millions, probably the billions of dollars that went into the investigations and the prosecutions of these cases simply to be wiped away by a president who will do anything and everything for anyone who is even some semblance of having supported him at some point. >> we really appreciate your time tonight describing the actions you're taking. thanks so much for being with us. >> thanks for having me. a reminder, do not miss "full circle." you can catch it streaming live at 6:00 p.m. eastern or watch it on the cnn app at any time on demand. as we said, there is a ton of breaking news tonight, so let's hand it over to chris for "cuomo hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >>thank you, john. i am chris cuomo. we have breaking news. i'll tell you this is a very bad situation that the president is creating right now. and i think he's doing it to look good. but it's about the rest of us,

and here's the news, okay? it took almost to the end of this tantrum of a presidency but we now have a moment for this president, an ultimate moment of put up or shut up about being a champion for the american people, okay? the president has just put out a video statement saying he may not sign the relief bill. there are two big wants that he has, but the one that matters most is that he says he wants the checks to you to be made bigger. now, this is something you can't just say. it is not about talking the talk because every moment you delay, people suffer. you must walk the walk. the democrats, as you know, always wanted more money in the checks. it is his party and frankly trump's own staff that bargained down the eventual amount.

nancy pelosi, speaker of the house, democrat, obviously, seized on this truth and issued the challenge that will define the final days of trump's presidency in terms of what he does for you. here's her statement, a tweet. republicans repeatedly refused to say what amount the president wanted for direct checks. at last, the president has agreed to $2,000. democrats are ready to bring this to the floor this week by unanimous consent. let's do it. mr. president, are you ready to walk the walk for the american people? this is a thing that they need more than anything else at a time that they need it more than any other time. it would be a damnable thing to delay relief the way you are right now by not signing and force millions of americans to

suffer, to starve all through the holidays and into the new year if you don't deliver. and this would be a simple task. get the retrumplicans in line. they must do as you say. and ordinarily i wouldn't argue that. i would say you've got a president but the party's got it's -- but that's not the way it works and you know it. you've gotten them to swallow so much worse, this will do good for people. you've gotten them to be silent or even more importantly co complicit about your election canard. and even you know that's what it is. even you are surprised at how gullible they have been. it's part of your frustration. i hear what you're saying. i hear you're saying i don't get it, they'll say whatever i want them to say, how come i can't do anything here? i can't help you about the election because that's about the constitution and the law.

but this is about you and your will. get your party to face the truth about the need in this country. they have no problem swallowing lies. get them to own the truth. this is your moment. this is what will be the ultimate capstone. are you a deal maker or just a con? here's the president's position. if certain items that he thinks are part of the relief bill but aren't, there's an omnibus spending bill that was attached, right? i don't like it either. i think it should have just been relief and they should have gotten it done a long time ago. but again, you've got to expect more and demand better of congress if you want this kind of culture to change. in the attached spending bill, there are certain items he sees as wasteful. interestingly and for me foreboding of a bad outcome here. he wants the three martini lunch extended even longer. so, is he really about wasteful things when that's about as wasteful as anything in the bill

except for that wall spending they put in in the middle of a pandemic? now, here's the thing. why should we question whether or not he's going to do anything rather than just talk? months of inaction. all that negotiating was going on, he wanted no part of it. he either watched passively, as pelosi said, and all reporting points in the same direction. the republicans wouldn't even say what the president wanted. thaw didn't even want him to have any role in this. he sat passively or completely ignored it. now he's saying checks should be $2,000, not $600. everything points to this being something where he gets to look good as others will truly suffer. people absolutely could use more money, and it was on him to fight for that. but when the fight was happening not after it has been decided. this is not swooping in at the last minute. this isn't picking up the ball on the one yard line. this is a delay of game.

he has been told that this delay and any help that was going to come may not come for anybody by christmas or new year. and it could start over any chance of a deal any time soon. americans were supposed to start getting checks next week. you know, i'm trying to find new ways to tell you this all the time. i've never seen hunger in this country the way it is right now. i'm 50 years old. we haven't seen it since the depression. it's one in six or seven of all of us in the richest country in the world. but depending where you live, you've got one in four, one in three children not getting adequate nutrition. and i'm not saying the type of food. i'm saying the amount of food. it is desperate out there. people are desperate for this money, and he is holding it hostage three days before christmas. let history remember in the final days of trump's

presidency, he messed with good people. and if he doesn't deliver, that must be his legacy because i'll tell you what he did do. he took care of bad people. this pardon blitz is the worst we've seen. it's a new low. you can support trump, but don't you dare ever call him a law and order president again. 20 pardons and commutations tonight for political allies and others, including two convicted in the russia probe, three corrupt, disgraced gop congressmen. papadopoulos. remember him? he's just a liar, a former trump campaign staffer, lied to the fbi about his russia contacts. remember alex van der zwaan who was deported after pleading guilty to lying to investigators about his interactions with a person with ties to russian entail. former congressman duncan

hunter -- this is the kind of stuff -- you talk about draining the swamp, duncan hunter was sentenced to 11 months for stealing campaign funds. former gop rep chris collins sentenced to 26 months for insider trading, lying to investigators while in congress. he gets one too. why? there were some of his earliest backers. that's not law and order and you know it. trump commuted the sentence of former republican congressman steve stockman of texas. he's about two years into a 10-year hitch, conspiring to take hundreds of thousands in donations meant for charity and voter education. also pardoned, four blackwater guards involved in a deadly shooting of iraqi civilians. what does this mean? now, look, the pardons, that's about what trump is about in terms of character or lack thereof. if you're good to e him, nothing else matters. he's not about law and order. know that.

he just proved it to you. we have the perfect guest to speak to what's happening with this relief bill and what those pardons may portend, what could come next. the chair of the house intelligence committee who led the trump impeachment effort, congressman adam schiff. it's good to have you back in a short window. thank you for responding to the need of the news tonight. >> you bet. good to be with you again. >> now, what do you think about this? do you believe that this is just an ugly bluff, or do you believe this is a moment where trump can say to these guys, i want to go out looking good, change the amount? >> chris, it's really hard to tell. you know, i think we're seeing a real dissent in the president's capability, attention, focus, conduct and it's going to probably get worse over the next 30 days. but the reality is if the president didn't like the amount that the republicans in congress were willing to go along with, he should have said something. he's been completely missing in

action and this has been true not just since the election, although it certainly was heightened after the election. but for months now as we have tried to get a relief package going, he's been completely disengaged. why wait until the house passes a bill and then the senate passes a bill to say, oh, suddenly i'd like the checks to be bigger. now, it is true, chris, the only thing he's ever cared about in relief package are the checks that have his name on them. but nonetheless, if he wanted to make them bigger, he could have weighed in and he didn't. i don't know what this last-minute gambit is about, but look, if he's saoirse, if heeri going to put pressure on mcconnell, i'm all for it. we can take up a bill asap to increase the amount of these checks. we're willing if he can get the republicans on board. >> hopefully you can't even see i'm biting my lip here because i -- this is so -- i know we use this word and we abuse it in the

media and we shouldn't. but this is dangerous for these families out there. i know you know. i know you're a responsive congressman. the need is great in your state. the outpouring of people from around the country who tell me they are starving and need this money and needed it months and moss ago, my concern is this. let's say it is a bluff and he goes and says give me more money and they say no, beat it. now what happens, if he says fine i'm going to veto it because he's all about taking it too far and doubling down, do you have the votes to override a veto in this bizarro world of retrumplican politics where the same guys who don't want to give him more money for the checks may not vote against him to override the veto because they fear him so the people don't get the checks and we don't get a bill signed into law. >> chris, you're absolutely right. we don't know. first of all, you're absolutely right about the need out there.

in my district where there are no rooms in icus, where businesses have had to shut down, where there are long lines for food, people need the help. and that is true all over the country. they just can't wait anymore. so, this has a real direct impact on them, their livelihood. you know, certainly it's an even more bitter blow during the holidays but it's a matter of food on the table and a roof over their heads. but here we are. you know, we've passed the bill in the house. we passed the bill in the senate. suddenly the president weighs in. is he serious about vetoing it? and if he does, will the republicans who voted to pass it suddenly change course? they're capable of that, chris. these are the same republicans who said we're not going to impeach him even though essentially we find him guilty because we think the voters should decide. and once the voters decided, they said, well, we don't like what the voters decide so we're

going to join a lawsuit to overturn the election. they have shown no floor below which they will not go to appease this president. >> that's what i just argued. i just argued that, that this should be easy for him. you know, if you get men and women, supposedly of good will to either be silent or even complicit in what they know is a fraud about questioning the election, giving people more money that's not even their money, it's the taxpayers money, should be easy for him. when do you think -- i just have one more question about this. we're hearing from our congressional reporter phil mattingly that you guys are thinking of putting this on the floor thursday. but won't you know tonight, tomorrow morning, tomorrow afternoon if the republicans are going to go anywhere near it? >> well, chris, i have to think that the republicans are not going to go anywhere near this. but we're willing to try. you know, i'm willing to go back to the house floor, do whatever i can, whatever time/hours it

takes to get it done. i'm sure that some republicans will object to unanimous consent so we would all have to come back and vote on it. but i'm all for it. if we can get more people to the american people, we should all come back and vote on it. i have little confidence this lame duck president is going to get that kind of a bill through the senate. and maybe he doesn't even care because maybe, as you point out, this is just about him posturing in a way that he thinks will help him down the road. the suffering of the american people has never been all that much an issue for him. it's always only about what's in it for donald trump. >> look, the good news is you guys probably had to come back to vote on that ndaa anyway, another piece of legislation he's expected to veto. i hate to even say this and exacerbate another problem in this country, but these are his people who are hungry in this

country. these are trump voters. it should be we're all his people. he's supposed to be the president of everybody. but these are his people. we'll see what happens. really worried about the delay here derailing the situation. you worry about going away for the new year and come back and people don't have the checks and who knows what happens leading up to the inauguration and stalling this further. every day counts. then we have the pardons that come out. i am not as shocked as some people are by this pardon list. i expected him to take care of his friends. that's what he does. what is your biggest concern on the list? >> well, you know, i think it's really difficult to point out what's the most egregious on this, but look at the categories. republican corrupt public officials who endorse trump. they get a pardon. people who kill innocent civilians in a fit of war, they get a pardon. they were heroes on fox. i guess they get a pardon.

people who lied to cover up for themselves or for the president, they get a pardon. you know, it's just another body blow against the rule of law in this country. when you think about the damage that the military pardons are going to do to military justice to our relations with iraq, when you think about the damage it's going to do to public integrity to consider, well, you know, people who insider trade or people who defraud supporters, if they're elected officials of the same party of the president, then the law doesn't apply to them. it's just a terrible injury, again, another injury to our democracy by this corrupt president. but, look, it's likely all adage. garbage in, garbage out. you elect a corrupt president, you get a corrupt result. >> so much for drain the swamp. here's my concern. tell me if i'm off base on this. . that this is a nice signal to

people that listen, do whatever you can for me between now and january 6th or maybe even after that. it doesn't matter. i don't care if they come after you. they can't do anything to you that i can't undo. do anything you can to keep me in power. i mean doesn't this send that signal as clear as anything? >> it does. and, you know, frankly that's been his message all along, which is if you lie for me, you can come up for me, if you're loyal to me, i will abuse my power to protect you. on the other hand, if you cooperate with authorities and you expose corruption, then i will come after you. if you stand up to me, i will come after you. when he praises paul manafort, another multi-convicted felon supporter of his, his former campaign manager, giving private polling data to someone linked to russian intelligence, when he does stuff like that and he praises someone like manafort

because manafort wouldn't cooperate against him but he condemns others like michael cohen who did cooperate, calls him a rat, he's acting like an organized crime figure except this organized crime figure is the president of the united states with the power to give people a get out of jail free card. >> congressman, again, thank you. we just had you on the show. thank you for coming through, sir. >> thanks chris. >> this is a big deal. this is heavy anti-santa territory. look, everybody wants more money in the checks. i know the desperation out there. all of us should know it. if he's just puffing up his chest and said hey i went big with the system here, that's unforgivable because every day is a life being off course in this country. and look when it comes to the pardons, i mean, who's surprised? this president isn't about loyalty. he doesn't go both -- it's feelty. you put me first, i'll take care

of you. it doesn't matter the felony. duncan hunter, chris collins. this wasn't about mueller. these guys broke the law and he just forgives it. why? because he can. he's got four weeks left. what else is he telling people right now. do this for me. do that for me. what? he can get them out of anything. what does this suggest about what could come next? ♪ may your holidays glow bright and all your dreams take flight. visit your local mercedes-benz dealer today for exceptional lease and financing offers at the mercedes-benz winter event. if you have type 2 diabetes and risks for heart disease,

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two big stories on our watch, what's going to happen with the relief bill fou had. i just got new reporting on that. we'll take it up. that's still developing. what we did see are these pardons. the concern is not just surprise, trump's not about law and order, he'll reward felons if they pay feelty to him, but what could it suggest about what else he could do? what does it show about where his head is? i have preet brar rah and andrew mccabe. the question becomes what they say about what he might do, andrew mccabe. what is the suggestion for you on that, especially looking at not just the mueller folks but guys, stockman, collins, hunter, they have nothing to do with

mueller. they're just crooks? >> you're absolutely right, chris. this breaks down on interesting lines, first the mueller defendants. done of that is surprising to anybody, right? and the simple fact is he can continue to pardon everybody who was convicted in the mueller probe, everyone who was interviewed in the mueller probe if he likes. none of that will ever erase the fact that donald trump is the only american president in history to have been elected -- >> is preet bharara still here? take up the point for me. >> you make an interesting point. are there people out there who are still hoping for a pardon who have enough power or influence or position to do something that's favorable to the president? i don't think there's that many people in that category. i do think what he's doing among other things, laying the groundwork for additional pardons that are going to be

more controversial. so, these are controversial. everyone's talking about them. i think many of them are disgraceful, especially the ones you keep mentioning, the two congressmen who are convicted by the justice department under donald trump, under his own attorney general, jeff sessions for engaging in clear misconduct and lining their own pockets. but there's going to be a next wave of pardons that mugt extend to people even closer to him, maybe even family members and himself. he does have a peculiar way of defying deviants down, as the phrase goes, by ignoring us to do these things and we yell about it and say he has the authority to do it and we criticize it. then we can do it again and again and again and i think in a more disgraceful way going forward. >> and he benefits from the culture of low expectations. people are like they all pardon their friends. remember this guy, remember that guy? it just creates a culture of accommodation. there is an interesting aspect to this, what we would have not

seen before was pardon as prophylaxis, pardoning his own kids. now people think well doesn't that have to be an investigation. one, there's not a lot on this. no, pa rereet, my understanding if you were president, you could say you're going to get in trouble at some point. i pardon you now. couldn't he just do that? >> there are two limitations on the pardon power which is otherwise broad. he cannot pardon criminal conduct that occurs at the same level, that can be chargeable by state, district attorney, state attorney general. he also can't pardon conduct that hasn't yet occurred. you can pardon conduct that has occurred in the past but not yet been charged. that's what happened with president ford and richard nixon. the conduct already occurred, no charges brought, you can do that. >> what if he were to say anything that jared kushner has said or done while he's been here with me from this date

until this date, anything to do with any of that, he's pardoned because i'll tell you why, there are bad people who will go after him for bad reason and i'm going to protect him from it. >> that's ultimately going to be his speech. that's his narrative. that's why he's going to do it with respect to a lot of people, including himself. what you describe is what president ford did for richard nixon. he was pardoned for all conduct during his presidency, crimes against the united states and america based on conduct during his presidency. and i guess you could do something like that for jared, cohen, and others, yeah, there's nothing preventing him from doing that. >> cohen? he's not doing anything for cohen. andrew mccabe is back now. let's loop him in. preet and i are discussing the idea of pardon as prophylaxis for his own and saying that anything that jared kushner has said or done, you know, just to use him as an example, could be ivanka, any of his kids, anything they've said or done

from this period to this period, encompassing his presidency, they can't be charged with anything on the federal level. he could do that. >> he absolutely could. ford is obviously the example. there is some degree of specificity that has to be included in a pardon. but i think by attaching that to the time period of his presidency probably satisfies that requirement. so, he absolutely, i believe, could issue those sorts of pardons to his friends and family members or members of the administration. >> before tonight, 88% of trump's comations aided someone with a personal tie to the president or further his political aims. preet, how does that number stick out to you in reconciling administrations past? >> look, you am going to deep dive going back generations and there have been bad pardons before. we always have to say this with donald trump, ruth? there have been other presidents who have made misstatements, abused their power, abused their

pardon power. trump takes all of these things on every occasion to the next level in size and scope and in disgrace. bill clinton had a couple of bad pardons, true. he was investigated for one of them by my former office, the southern district of new york. so, there was a consequence even after he left office even though no charges were ultimately brought. he does it a cut above. he's special in that regard. >> look what he could do. one of the things that's very curious that's going on right now is this fund he's using for contributions. i get the emails all the time. i'm one of the anointed. i'm one of his key donors apparently. and that money, he could say , y the way, anything to do with us raising the money and where the money goes and how to use it, i pardon all the people involved of running the charity. that would create a real problem for the doj, wouldn't it,

andrew? >> it would, although, i'll tell you, chris, i don't know if it's even necessary. the fact is this leadership pack, which is what he's created now to kind of fund his activities after he leaves the white house, there's almost no restrictions on how that, who can donate to it. it's a black box of campaign finance law right now. so, it's -- he's really profited incredibly based on these insane conspiracy theories about voter fraud over the last couple of weeks. and it remains to be seen how he's going to spend that money. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. i do believe the big cautionary sign in this is if he's okay with this kind of stuff, what might people do between now and when biden is inaugurated that he could forgive them for and let them know that. that's the kind of concern you have to have because these are the kinds of things this man is capable of. he just showed you. god bless and be well. >> thanks chris.

that's the law and the kind of political conflation there, combining with it in term of outcome. there's no question that trump is okay burning things down in the name of his own aggrandizement, sparing felons who once took an oath to serve the country. what does he care about the oath to him? what's happening to relief now? his threat to veto creates several paths of potential chaos for american people 36 hours before christmas eve. i've got anthony scaramucci who understands and is talking to people around this president and michael smerconish who just has a knack for understanding what makes sense in a situation like this. let's look at the different ways this can go and what they can mean for all of us next. the pt from your walmart store. really fast.

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all right. so, what has trump done by threatening to veto this bill? from our reporting and me working phones and texts during the show in commercial, i can't see it as anything good right now except for himself this kind of illusion that he wanted to do better for you. republicans are split in two ways. there are three avenues. one is democrats bring this up for unanimous consent vote which means we're going to go to the floor and vote on it right now. that doesn't seem like it's going to pass muster, that enough republicans will say we don't want to do it this way, everybody has to come back. they were going to come back anyway because there's another piece of legislation that the president is going to veto. but it's about the time this takes with people not getting help. so, if you look at the numbers, 359-53 in the house, 92-6 in the senate, 359-53 in the house,

92-6 in the senate. what does that tell you? veto proof. pocket veto but veto proof. what does that mean? the republicans are saying, man rah you with his reporting the leaders don't want to negotiate, so they're saying go ahead and veto it. how does that look? that looks bad for trump because then his own party has clearance to say, see, we weren't always trump's minions and he is not going to like that look right at the end. but then you have the retrumplicans who may be afraid to go along with this bill because he's against it. what's hurting that effort, which would be the best case scenario, right, in terms of getting more money for people? they don't really believe that he is serious about it. so, the delay can go all the way to january 3rd. that's the backstop. what happens january 3rd? the new congress is sworn in. so, what does that mean? that means you have to start again from scratch. now, that, to me, is the worst

case scenario here because trump could perceive that as him being tough, right, and the congressional leaders -- not the democrats, this is terrible for them. but for the republicans, they can say, well, we held our ground, even against trump. what happens to all the people who are hungry? it all starts again, this bill. so, the best case scenario right now is for trump to be dismissed as what he is, a con, and this is just another con. go ahead and veto it, but do it now. they may come out and say something like that. sign it now or veto it now because we're going to override you or you're going to pass this. either way we're going to get what we want and you're go to hurt people with delay. let's bring in anthony scaramucci and michael smerconish to discuss. mooch, does that scare with what the play is? it's an obvious chest thump. i want more money for you, i'm the good guy. but he never fought this fight when they were fighting it, so what's the play?

>> it does square and he had lunch with one of our mutual friends today who is trying to caution him on what he's doing right now. hopefully he's listening. but listen, i was with him in july of 2017 on air force one. he wanted to veto the russian sanctions bill and i begged him not to do that. i said, listen, what's going to happen is they're going to override it. they're going to totally emasculate your presidency. he doesn't care about that stuff now. he's got 28, 29 days to go. when he realizes they're going to emasculate him by overriding his veto, he's going to sign the legislation. that's my prediction because he doesn't want that level of hue millation with 28, 29 days to go. >> smerconish is shaking his head no. how do you see it? >> i don't agree with either of you. i don't think you're underestimating the president. i don't think him being the grinch who stole christmas is

accurate. i think it's the most effective thing he's done since losing the election. the american people aren't going to understand the difference between the covid relief bill and the omnibus spending bill. they are going to think william proximate mire. you remember chris? >> yeah. >> you remember the golden fleece awards? when they hear things like counting amber jack fish, which is what he said in that video, at a time when americans are getting $600. the $600 is going to sound like chump change. and it is -- it is him, frankly, laying back on those arguments that first put him in office, that he's the champion of the working person and he wants two grand -- >> i agree. >> -- in everybody's pocket. >> i agree. >> i think it's very effective for him. >> i agree, for him. i'm saying i don't think he can get it done. and there is a cost to the nature of this, smerk. every say that is delayed because we're seeing whether or not he's going to be robin hood

or not, people are starving in this country. and the check's not going to come. >> they are, chris. but you're looking at the roll call and you're assuming that those votes in the senate and the house hold firm. >> right. >> i don't know what tomorrow brings. i don't know what the reaction is on am terrestrial talk radio and the other cable station and so forth. i'm sure they're thumping their chests in support of the president, and that base may shake those votes. >> that would be awesome. but then you get back to existential question, anthony, which is where you been? the democrats have been fighting for 2,000 for six months. and his own staff have been fighting against it. i don't think he's going to get the clean kill on this and be robin hood the way michael suggests because the facts are against it. but what do you think the chance is his party doesn't veto and go michael's way which is there's too much pressure, he's the guy, he'll haunt us, we've got to give him this. >> i appreciate what michael is

saying but i think that is donald trump 2015 or 2016. it's not donald trump 2020. and he's got a lot of things to worry about on january 21st. he's got a direct signal from mitch mcconnell. they've been told in the senate to knock this stuff off. trump is just raising money off of this ruse related to the election fraud, all that false non-sense, chris. so, i just want to frame it as donald trump 2020. he's looking at the tea leaves. he's going to get overridden. mitch mcconnell is going to completely embarrass him in the senate. he doesn't want that. so, he's making noises here, but he'll sign that bill. >> that is a factor for you to put into the equation of your thinking, michael, which is who know what is the day brings, what terrestrial radio brings. but how much does trump want this? that matters also. >> i think he wants -- i think he wants a donnybrook with mitch mcconnell now because as you well know the president is totally focused on january 6 and

where mcconnell has admonished his caucus and told them to stand in line, don't give trump the vote that he wants, everybody needs to stand together. tuberville, we hope you don't go along with the house republicans who want to challenge the electoral college. it further suits the president's interests to fight with those republicans. he thinks he owes them nothing. >> but if this goes too far, maikel, and you get to january 3rd, people really are in a bad place. >> yeah, they are. but i'm not convinced that the court of public opinion points a finger at him. when they hear from him the laundry list of aid to cambodia and aid to egypt and saying why the hell are we getting 600 bucks. >> don't forget the billion plus for his wall and wants to extend the lunch thing for rich guys on lunches. this is not a guy who's all of a sudden found jesus in terms of

what the purpose of charity is. >> i'm only suggesting to you that it's not black and white, that he does not necessarily come out of this politically speaking as a loser. >> i don't think you're wrong. i don't think you're wrong because just asking for more money for people looks good, right? >> right. >> in the back world of republican politics right now, which is they're supposed to be the austerity party. but look, michael's right about this one thing. donnybrook is one of those fancy people words for a brawl. >> it's not fancy. it's a baseball term. >> that's a big word. biggest word we use on this show is mayonnaise i want you to know. i appreciate you both. we don't know what the day brings. this is what we do know. every day without resolution is a day people don't get the relief they need. this was brilliantly broken down inside and out. anthony scaramucci, thank you. michael smerconish, as always, thank you. if i don't see you, god bless the families for christmas.

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i started bringing you in more on kind of the philosophy or the strategy of our coverage decisions. because we're doing the job for you. we've seen controversial pardons before, criticized as presidents taking care of people who took care of them. but while trump didn't start this kind of a problem, he sure did blow it into a new universe. now we have, again, something i've never seen before. people play brinksmanship all the time, but now you have a deal, and trump wants to look the hero, and say i want more money for the people? does that make him a good guy, or something else? let's talk to somebody who was a mentor to me in how to question power, and how to frame situations. sam donaldson, the best to you and the family. you are a gift to me, sir. >> hello, chris. what we're seeing now is

apocalypse now. colonel kurtz muttering about the horror. only this time, donald trump is the horror, and i think he's creating chaos in his last few days on purpose, because in his mad way, he thinks if he can get his base riled up, and other people wanting the $2,000 on the 6th of january, something can happen to make him become president for another four years. that's madness, but we're dealing with a madman. >> that's the point. how do we explain what is happening to the american people. let's unpack both. pardons, we've seen bad pardons before, mark rich with clinton, what ford did with nixon. this is just more of that. what do you say? >> he can do whatever he wants to do, and the pardons serve his interest. the people who murdered in iraq, his base likes that. they're military men, they were

defending themselves. the people who were his friends, trying to keep that russia probe from destroying him, when in fact russia had nothing to do with this, his base loves that, too. most of the pardons i've seen about the political friends of him and the people i just talked about are directed towards the base. he wants the base now for the 6th of january. and if that doesn't work, if he actually has to leave the presidency, horrors there, he wants that base to continue to follow him as far as he wants to go. >> so the idea of saying i want more money for you, that's good. the conviction to fight for it, to the end, do you think he has that? because he didn't fight for more money up until this point. and this could get ugly if the

relief is delayed because he's holding out. >> he doesn't care about americans who frankly -- what has he called americans in the past, losers, not just in the military. but the people he doesn't want to associate with him. remember the times he said, this crowd of mine, i don't want to see them or be with them. that's not his kind of people. his only kind of people are the person he sees in the mirror. that's all he cares about. you say, how do we get this across to the american people, we got it across, and they voted him out. even though republicans down the line did pretty well in this last election. that got to many people, and many voted for him in 2016, and they said, we don't want this guy, this is terrible. but his cult followers are still there, and i don't know how to reach them. i'd like to. because you don't know what to do with them or for them. we should do something for them

and see if we can bring them back into the fold here. >> plenty of people who voted for trump are starving. >> in the meantime, we can't allow them to win and support trump to be another president for four years. >> subordinating the constitution to his own interests seems like something that is highly unlikely, but not great for our culture. a lot of his voters are hungry, and it seems good that he wants to get more money for them. but he didn't walk the walk. he doesn't want a veto override. so is the power of trump strong enough over that party to have them go back over their own deal and do so before january 3rd? >> that's right. but again, he's created chaos. he probably doesn't know how it will play out. but he thinks it will play out to his benefit. look what he's doing to the senators in georgia. the senators and mitch mcconnell

wants to have them elected. he said he wants $2,000, but if he could have done that earlier, it might have kept them in office. i'm not calling the election, but we come back to the point that he's not you. you worry about americans who are hungry. he doesn't. he's not hungry. ivanka is not hungry. his sons are not hungry. what do you expect of him? >> i guess exactly what we're getting. sam donaldson, thank you for putting it in perspective as you do. like i said, your insight has always been a gift to me. this christmas will be no different. be well, my friend. >> the same to you and your family. >> the question becomes, what happens in the next couple of days?

this is not a game. look, of course it is good to ask for more for the poor. but he didn't. he didn't ask for more for the poor until now. can he get it done, or is this what sam suggests, just him wanting to look good to the right people, at the right time? what a sin that would be against the culture of this country and the need. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ come on! ♪ over here! ♪

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