without no consequences at all. will january 6th, 2021 be remembered as only the beginning? thanks for spending your sunday morning with us. the news continues next. this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fa reed sa carrera, coming to you live from new york. today on this show, insurrection in america as a trump-supported mob breaches the u.s. capitol. is this a new low for the world's oldest constitutional e republic? >> we're going to the capitol.

>> will america be able to remove this stain from its global reputation? we'll devote the whole hour to talking about the issues swirling around the capitol, the future of donald trump. >> our incredible journey is only just beginning. >> the future of the republican party and the future of the republic itself. first with former secretary of state colin powell, then columnists ezra klein and paul apple back up and finally the great historian eric foe that (. but first here's my take. the bad news about america is all around us. but there is good news hidden within it or at least a chance for renewal of america's promise. i don't want to sugar coat the reality. we have lived through the most serious threat to the republic

in 150 years, and it is not over yet. for all those who doubted that donald trump is a danger to american democracy, words i used in 2016, this week finally provided the smoking gun. in fact, the evidence was long in plain view. "the wall street journal"'s editorial page, the guardian of american conservatism consistently ridiculed worries about trump's auto krasic tenures. it said the progressive elites predicted an authoritarian america because mr. trump posed a unique threat to democratic norms. excessive rhetorical attacks on the media. senior republicans refused to even make some tempid objections. critics like lindsey graham quickly morphed into sycophants.

now some of them are shocked, shocked to discover that donald trump was an auto cat after all. during the pandemic many conservatives pointed out that donald trump did not use the crisis to expand authority, which proved he had no authoritarian tendencies, but this misunderstands author tear itch. abraham lincoln used souped up authority to save the nation from dire emergencies. that did not make them autocr s autocrats. putin accumulated power not so that he could provide social security so russians, but to ensure that no one could ever challenge him. after the 2020 election, most republican meters remain silent as trump spent cancerous lies and conspiracy theories. mitch mcconnell like most republicans refuse to

acknowledge that joe biden had won the election for weeks and declared that trump was 100% within his rights to mount all his court challenges. but the fact they can use certain legal mechanisms does not mean one should. norms are as important as laws. the erosion of democracy in other countries from hungry to turkey to india has taken part through entirely legal means. both well-trained constitutional experts use clever reasoning to subvert democracy itself, proving that a fancy education does not ensure that you will act ethically. and just hours after the attempted insurrection on capitol hill, they, along with six other republican senators and 139 members of the house, voted to support the demands of those insurrectionists. those demands, the overturning

of a certified free election are every bit as sedition as was the run on the capitol. why after all this do i see some hidden good news? well, first, the insurrection ultimately failed. order was restored and within hours the results of the election were certified. in fact, this week's scale says put the rebels on the defensive. most come presently, the leader of the insurrection trump who finally pledged an orderly transition. it's led some republicans to some coddling trump. they realize that it's not worth the shredding of democracy. more likely, they have seen under trump's watch, the party has lost control of the house, the senate and the presidency. for four years, i have wonders when the trump fever would break. when, i wondered, would people see he was not a mitt cal figure

but a narcissist and a demago e demagogue, deeply at odds with the democracy of this country. well, this week it might have happened. you don't need the whole country to snap awake. when nixon resigned, a quarter of americans still supported him. but you need enough that it resets the norm. perhaps we have to go over the edge to climb back. when i was growing up far away from america in the 1970s, i find myself following events there with intense interest. those years were filled with turmoil. the united states suffered its first major military defeat. the president resigned in disgrace. yet, despite it all, i still felt a deep attraction to america. the chaos and disruption were evidence of an open society in the midst of great change, a place that showcased all the anger and turmoil that came with wrenching dislocations and

transformations. but these things were also the signs of a country airing its problems and facing up to its challenges, a place that having weathered that storm would find new resilience, energy and strength. it's then that i decided to come to emergency. i would do it again today. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my column this week. and let's get started. ♪ it is my great pleasure to bring in colin powell, former secretary of state, former national security adviser who served 35 years in the u.s. army and retired as a four star general. secretary powell, general powell, secretary powell, your excellencesy, let me ask you.

is this a moment for accountability, or is this a moment for healing? because the two can't really happen simultaneously. >> this is a moment for accountability, to place blame on people who have done things that are wrong. and at the same time, i think it is something for accountability because there are a lot of people who did not demonstrate using the accountability they have. but i have no fear for our country. we'll come out of this. we now have three bodies that are all in the same party. we have a guy that's going to be the president of the united states who i have known for many, many years and will do a completely different rational to what a president does, and so we'll come out of this okay. but we have to get mr. trump out of this entirely. he's got to be gone one way or another. whether it's the relief he takes

for himself or it's an impeachment or just leave, resign, retire. and, so, he's going to be gone. and then we will start again. the big challenge we're going to have is how do we convince all of our citizens and not just those of us who might be called progressive, how do we convince all of our citizens that we have to start changing our society again. we cannot have people running around with guns the way they're running around now. i saw in the state house, a whole line of guys with machine guns. why are they allowed to do that? why is that acceptable? i have seen things from the very beginning of the trump administration that convinced me that this is not the kind of guy for me. that was when he launched his tirade against mr. obama who he said was born in another country. we knew he wasn't born in another country. it was obvious. it was provable. but it took us, i think it was, a year and a half or two years before trump finally agreed to

it. why? because he was using it. he was using it as a way of saying this guy is a black guy, so let's keep talking against him. and we've got to change all that. we have get back on a track where americans feel strongly about our society. we are all democracies, democrats. and we'll get back. i have such confidence in our country, confidence in our ability to come through this crisis as we have come through many other crises in the past. but i'm concerned that we don't bring -- that we do bring, make sure we bring along all of our citizens. this gives us a challenge. how do we talk to that portion of our society that voted, you know, huge percentage went for mr. trump. mr. trump isn't there anymore, so we have to help them come back and join the rest of us. let's argue with each other. let's debate each other, but let's remember we have to love each other. that's where who we. we're americans and we have something to be proud of.

we have to make the rest of the world of us as well as they have for so many years before. >> pick up on what you said at ta start, which is you know donald trump is not going to resign so would you support impeachment and if there were an impeachment, you know, the house is likely to do it. if you were a senator, would you vote to convict? >> of course i would. i would vote to convict. i would have done it last time if i had the opportunity. but i'd be surprised if we can get an impeachment or a relief on his part or anything else, 25th amendment. it is only about a little over a week left. all i know is toward the middle of next week, he's going to be gone. >> let me ask you about something. you have been critical of trump from the start, from the campaign and for all in my view the right reasons. you have watched your fellow republicans, people you knew, people who had worked with cozy

up to him, refuse to condemn him, thinking, you know, they would get away with it. they would get his support. do you feel like that dynamic has broken? do they realize that in a sense they caused -- they encouraged at least this wildness to grow and grow. >> they did. and that's why i can no longer call myself a fellow republican. you know, i'm not a fellow of anything right now. i'm just a citizen who has voted republican, voted democrat throughout my entire year. and right now i'm watching my country and not concerned with the parties. so i do not know how he was able to attract all these people. they should have known better, but they were so taken by their political standing and how no one wanted to put themselves at political risk, they would not stand up and tell the truth or stand up and criticize him or criticize others. that's what we need, is people

that will speak the truth and remember they are here for their fellow citizens. they are here for our country. they are not here to be simply re-elected again. come on, guys. you can make it in private life if you don't get re-elected. right now we need you to be real americans, who will argue on the basis of facts and not just argue on the basis of what their primary looked like. >> stay with me, secretary powell. when we come back, i will ask secretary powell about how the world is reacting to what happened and what we can do about it. why. because our way works great for us! but not for your clients. that's why we're a fiduciary, obligated to put clients first. so, what do you provide? cookie cutter portfolios? nope. we tailor portfolios to our client's needs. but you do sell investments that earn you high commissions, right? we don't have those. so, what's in it for you? our fees are structured so we do better when you do better. at fisher investments we're clearly different.

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germany's angela merkel said they made her furious and sad and she regrets that trump didn't admit defeat in november. the enemies of democracy will be delighted at these terrible images. justin trudeau said america's neighbor to the north was terribly disturbed. saying when a sick person takes office, we see how he disgraces his country. joining me again is former secretary of state colin powell. ever since you were ronald reagan's national security adviser, you have been involved in the process by which the united states would go to other countries and say, shore up your democracy. shore up your democratic institutions. this has crossed the line. do we have the moral authority to tell other countries to strengthen their democracy now? >> i think we are very weakened

in that regard now, but i think we can get it back. i always tried, even as a junior officer, to reach out to our allies and our friends and strengthen that friendship and let them know we are still the same america that brought them to where they are. you have to remember where we came out of world war ii, where the enemies we had became democracies and allies. those allies still existed when i became chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. we have to show courtesy. we have to show respect. we have to show strength. it can be tied to strength. it can be tied to friendship. it can be tied to friendship. there is no conflict. all we have been doing for the last four years is insulting people, leaving treaties we had entered into, doing all kinds of things that do not do justice to the alliances we've had for all those many years.

and the people you just ran through with the exception of iran do not understand it so, they're walking away from it. they can't figure it out. no, it can't be figured out. we need to get back on track, and i think this is something we can do under the leadership of the new president comiing in. i think joe biden can help us with this and the people he's bringing with him. this is where our strength comes from, not just our weapon, not just our friendships. it is the friends we have. it is the allies we have. it is the people that respect us and look to us for the right approach to democracy and how to become more democratic as a people and as a nation and to demonstrate to the rest of the world we're still the america you fell in love with years ago. we're coming back. >> you have said a number of positiving about joe biden. tell us a little bit more. how well do you know him? what makes you as confident as

you are about him and his character? >> well, joe and i have known each other for, i guess, 30, 40 years, something like that. we have always been able to talk to each other. we have also done some interesting things together. a year and a half we raced our core vets out of the secret service lot. he had an old one, and i had a newer one, only two or three years old that my children gave me. they made me pay for it, but my children gave it to me. so in racing, mine could go a little faster, and i hung back to give then vice president-biden a head start. and once he got his head start, made the turn to come back to the finish line. that's when i would hit the pedal and i'd catch up with him. it was one of those things, though, that when i caught up with him not everyone wanted to see me keep going and pass him. so that's where the video part

chopped off. and i have always been a little bit disappointed that they didn't show my entire race. but joe and i had a great time that day. i chased him down streets in our corvettes, and he's just an average guy. but he's more than average guy. he's a guy that's been a leader. he's a guy that knows our politics, knows our country and knows how to go after these challenges that we have as americans. we're still americans. i'm still an american that i came into the army 60, 70 years ago. i'm disappointing in what i have been doing in recent years. the america i know and love is still there. we just have to scrape off the stuff that's been on the last several years. and we also have to retell our fellow citizens that it is time to take a look at what you are doing. and the other thing we have to do is tell our congress you have got to get on it. you have got to start doing your job. we're counting on you to help us

get back on track, to talk to your constituents about this. we need congress to do what a congress is supposed to do and not just worry about getting re-elected next semester. >> let me ask you finally. we don't have a lot of time. are you hopeful that the republican party will finally break for trump? >> i think, yes, because he isn't going to be here. i would hope that the republican party as they're moving away from this fellow who is no longer the president, i hope they would not let him back into the kam so he can demonstrate and say, oh, i'm still here. i can do it all. act like you are out. but joe biden is the president of the united states and the party has to follow his lead, the lead of the vice president and get moving on and restore ourselves and not go down a bad tube. what we have to do is persuade

mr. trump and those who have followed him all these years that you need to take another look. you need to really start working in terms of what's best for our country, not what's best for mr. trump. he's been serving himself for all these years, these four years and before that. and this is the time for us to move away and get back to being good republicans, but more importantly just good republicans. good citizens that work with other citizens of other presidential and other ambiti s ambitions. but let's argue it out the way we're supposed to argue it out, the way it has been gone all these years and not have somebody that can stand up and claim the election was a disaster and it was a lie. and now you have got to follow me and buy this story that it wasn't a lie. it wasn't a lie. it was a god honest truth, and we have the record for that and we have to follow that and not follow the lies that were put before us for the last several

months. >> always an honor to have you on, sir. thank you. next on gps, two great thinkers who have written two great books that will help us understand what just happened. and apple balm and ezra klein when we come back. at removing plaque, the main cause of bleeding gums parodontax

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my next two guests have written two of the most relevant books for helping us understand just what is happening to our country. appleba applebaum's latest is "twilight of democracy." she is a pulitzer prize winning always tor yan. ezra klein is the author of "why we're polarized." ez tra, let me ask you. everyone is talking about how the people who rioted, the people who stormed the capitol should be held accountable, should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. you wrote something saying, well, that shouldn't be our focus. explain why. >> so it is not they shouldn't be held accountable.

they should. but remember that the real villains here are the people that fooled them. they are marks. they are conned. they were not conned by random books on the street. the president of the united states told them the election had been stolen, that electoral politics had failed, had make a mockery of and he wasn't alone. he was joined by the house minority leader, by more than a dozen u.s. republican senators, by every major conservative talk radio host, by the lineup of fox news. so these people were told that a tremendous crime had been committed and the other thing for a patriot to do was to mass and then to do something, something was often left vague. although not always. president trump saying come on january 6th, it will be wild isn't all that vague. my argument is not that we should be prosecuting people who broke into the capitol and potentially wanted to mask our u.s. members of congress, but we

can't only prosecute those who can hit with the law while the powerful are protected by politics and not just donald trump but ted cruz and holly and all these other folks get off because it it would be too die visive in terms of their accountability as well. >> the ranking member in congress, kevin mccarthy was a fully paid up member of the wild conspiracy theories on this. anne, i want to ask you about this dynamic that ezra just described. so many republicans went along with trump's crazy conspiracy theories and lies because they thought it was kind of a cost free way for them to pander to his base. of course what we've seen is that this kind of rhetoric does have a cost, that words are not empty, that you actually influenced a whole bunch of people, millions maybe and

certainly the tens of thousands who came to washington. and you talk about exactly this phenomenon of the people who get seduced by authoritarianism, not because they believe the ideology but because they are so coveted of the power, being close to power. >> one of the oddities of the modern republican party is that it is very divided. but the divide is not ideological. it is not like there is a left wing or a right wing or a liberal and conservative wing. what we have is a part of the party that is still dedicated to reality, to using politics to solve problems. and another part of the party that has exactly as you say, done a deal with the devil and decided that politics is about lying and it is about creating an alternative reality for certain kinds of voters to live

in, particularly gullible, particularly angry people to be attracted to and to live in. and that that -- and those politicians are not interested anymore in politics. they are interested in conspiracy theory. they are interested in culture wars. they are interested in whipping up anger on social media and other forms of media and leading people down that path. the decision -- the argument with the party now is a really strange one. as i said, who wins? is it reality? is it return to politics? not even as normal or just as functional or is a part of the party going to go off in that direction in the interest of its own power and in pursuit of anti-democratic goals. democracy requires, as you yourself have written, not just elections and not just institutions, but it requires norms and morality. it requires all kinds of rules. and it also requires a

fact-based, evidence-based reality that people can talk about and debate. and without that, we can't have democracy. it just doesn't function. >> if you take what anne was describing and we confront the reality for the republican party, that now the white house, the senate and congress -- and the house of representatives are all controlled by the democrats in their view elite cultural institutions controlled by democrats, they are going to feel more like their world is slipping away. and i have always taught -- understand america now, that part of america, this wonderful book by a german historian called "the politics of culture despair," the sense that your world is disappearing. won't they become -- isn't there a danger they become more fanatical because they think their world is slipping away? >> there isn't just a danger. there is a near certainty. you have to look at this moment

as one of the most dangerous we're facing. most people are not going to storm the capitol. most people are not going to become violent. for for those who are truly committed to trumpism as both an ideological and a fan tas cal project, right, this fantasy you can regain control, to see it rupture, to see simply donald trump's words rupture, to be told mike pence can stop this great crime and he doesn't, it is in that moment that people can go frankly a little bit nuts and we are seeing it now. that's why it is happening now. the storms of the capital happened now because all these things people were expecting happen, that there was some great plan behind it, that donald trump wasn't going to lose, it didn't happen. what you may get is a republican party where some of it is sort of normal. some of it is what i would call abnormal, antisystem. but it is not violent. then there is a core millions of

people that is violent insurrectionists. the weaker they get, the more dangerous they become. the more they feel is being taken from them, the greater the crime of the more is demanded of patriots in reply. i continuously want to focus my commentary here on the republicans who operate in that middle space, the ted cruzs, the hollies, et cetera, because they are creating the permission structure. they may not support violence or say they don't, but as long as they are telling folks that what they believe has happened, this has been taken from them, this is a total yan society run by big tech and the left, they are justifying the world view that leads quite logically to these kinds of acts. >> all right. stay with us next. so what should joe biden do? i will ask ezra and anne.

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and we are back with anne applebaum and ezra klein. you point out by saying this. america's moral authority comes not just from what it has done in the world but what it is, a model of a constitutional democracy. so that being tarnished, what can joe biden do to repair that? what would you advise him to do? >> i think there are two kinds of things that biden can do. one is at home. you have asked several times on this program about the question of accountability versus moving on, which is interestingly the dilemma that many democrats face after the fall of a dig tor y'all regime. the answer is usually you have to do both. you have to hold accountable people that violated a the law and at the same time you have to change the subject. you have to get americans to talk about real issues that affect them, whether it is the

kpi or fixing the coronavirus or vaccines. you have to end the culture wars and bring down the level of conversation. i think he intuitivety understands that. that's what he did during the election campaign. but focussing people on real issues where there can be a real conversation about real things is really important. and abroad what's also important is not just that he reaches out to our allies and reestablishing america as a leading democracy, which of course he will do, but also that he uses that moment to do something concrete. you know, let's talk to our allies about fixing the catastrophe of social media, thinking about what do we want the democratic internet to look like. let's talk to them about clep tok rasy and ending the dark money that distorts all of our politics. focussing on real issues and not just repeating slogans, i think he can do that and i hope that he will. >> there will be a big debate

within the democratic party about what biden should do. should you take this moment which may be just two years where you have the senate and the house and do something big? should you do something more incremental. should joe man chin be the power broker in washington? >> i'm writing a piece about this now. just help people fast. that's it. everything you can do to help people fast, to areattach them to politics to show them it matters who is in charge. what happened that reshaped politics that day was not that trumpists took back the capitol was that democrats took back the senate, which they actually did. so they will have an opportunity to govern as a trifecta. they need to help people. they need to make it matter in clear and visible ways. they need to make it matter in a way that people know that government helped them, the democrats helped them and that politics matters beyond these

symbolic collisions, beyond what they see on twitter. it actually matters for things like getting vaccine rollouts, but also getting checks in our hands, vaccine rollout and environment. they can't wait too long to roll out their help. they can't get involved in gangs and negotiations forever. they just have to help people fast. >> you have in the past been in favor of, you know, electoral college reform or ending the filibuster or puerto rico d.c. statehood. you would say let that all take a backseat. first get money out. fix problems fast. i wouldn't say that necessarily takes a backseat. which they can do it, we'll see. but filibuster reform. deciding to open up a bunch reconciliation will be necessary to legislate quickly. t if you can't get anything through the senate, you can't help people. they can separate policy. i would say for the joe man chin's of the world, if they

they will be re-elected. that was a mistake democrats made in 2009. they got woiped out in 2010. the way you get re-elected is people think your party did a great job. they're not going to separate you from the president. they will judge you based on how they judge the president. >> ezra klein, anne applebaum, always a pleasure to have you on. thank you both. >> thank you. next on gps, the direct line drawn from the days after the civil war to the mob's attack on the capitol on wednesday. when we come back, eric foner. at fisher investments, we do things differently and other money managers don't understand why. because our way works great for us!

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our democracy is under unprecedented assault. unlike anything we have seen in modern times. >> president-elect biden was correct to add the time reference there because in many ways this week's assault does have precedence further back in american history. that's why i have my next guest here, eric foner. he is one of the historians of america and particularly the reconstruction period, the time after the civil war when the country was attempting to put itself back together and begin to deal with its racist legacy. his most recent back is the second founding. how the civil war and reconstruction remade the constitution. professor, when you think about this issue of elections that then occasion a violent

reaction, this is not the first time. there are many presidents in american history. >> i'm afraid that you're correct, of course. and particularly if you go back to the reconstruction era after the civil war when african-american men in large numbers for the first time were granted the right to vote in america. you had elections which produc d ed by racial and a rayist backlash against that by the ku klux klan, and by the knights of the white ka mill yeah. you have far more violent uprising. in kol fax, louisiana armed whites murdered dozens of members of a black militia in order to seize control of the government of that parish. if you jump forward, 1898,

wilmington, north carolina had a biracial government and an ar d ed cue data storm (ed the government and that led to the disinfranchisement, taking the right to vote away to black people in north carolina. yes, the opportunity to overturn elections didn't happen under president trump in our history. >> and of course there is the most famous violent reaction to an election, which was the election of abraham lincoln. >> well, yes. that's at another level, of course. but, you know, at that time the southern states eventually, you know, quite a few of them simply said we're not -- they didn't say that lincoln hadn't won. they said, yeah, lincoln won but we do not accept that. we will not live under the rule

of a person who is opposed to slavery and that of course produced the civil war, the greatest crisis in american history. it was quite a shock to me and to other people to see the confederate flag paraded around the capital the other day. the flag of treason, the flag of savory. i can't remember when the flag was prominently displayed at the capitol. maybe it happened at some point or another. but it certainly shows you people who do that are promoting abject racism and of course president trump has identified himself with the con federal story many times during his presidency. >> somewhat obscured by all this is another truly historic event, the elections in georgia. what do you make of them. and as a historian what do you think it says about how far we've come. >> yeah. i mean, i think a couple of days ago we saw the clash of two

elements you might say of the american tradition and american politics. one was the violent attempt to overturn an election, but the other is the election of an african-american man and a jewish man to the senate from the georgia. everyone knows how remarkable this is. this is a state with many lynching of black people that didn't allow blacks to vote for many, many decades, that where the lynching of a jewish factory superintendent took place. anti-semitism and racism had been deeply embedded in the culture so that overcoming that is a remarkable thing. i agree with you. in all the darkness there is a sign of optimism that people can change. they can overcome past prejudices. we're not just fixed forever in the prejudices of the past. and it took a lot of work. that didn't happen naturally.

it took a lot of work by people like stacey abrams and her group to register black voters, to insist that they come out to vote, tell their relatives and friends to come out and vote, but they succeeded in making georgia really it's unprecedented that they have two democratic senators like of the background that the two are. so it shows that positive change is possible in this country, despite the events that we saw in washington. >> eric foner, pleasure to have you on. and for all those who like this, read professor ffoner's books. thank you, eric foner. >> thank you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week.

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sglrchl this is cnn breaking news. >> this is "reliable sources" beginning with breaking news from washington. president trump heading toward impeachment for the second time. democrats moving to begin the proceedings on monday. some republicans even urging the president to resign in the wake of wednesday's attack. let us take stock of exactly where we are this sunday. the nation is reeling from wednesday's assault at the capitol. the president, who incited the attack, is completely missing in action. big technology companies believe he poses a threat to the public, so they have cut him off from their servers. he is invisible. he's not holding statements, holding press conferences. he's silent. the executive branch of the american government seem