♪ so, this is not the kind of monday to ease you into the week. it's the other kind. john berman here, in for anderson. flags are flying at half staff, tonight at the white house and capitol. they were lowered late today, when deaths from covid crossed the 500,000 mark. the president, vice president, and their spouses held a candlelight ceremony and a moment of silence, at the white house, tonight, to honor the fallen. >> we often hear of people

described as ordinary americans. there's no such thing. there's nothing ordinary about them. the people we lost were extraordinary. they span generations. born in america, emigrated to america. but just like that, so many of them took their final breath alone in america. i know, all too well, i know what it's like to not be there when it happens. i know what it's like when you are there, holding their hands. as they look in your eye and they slip away. >> the president, tonight, and to put it in perspective. he took office with fatalities having just crossed 400,000. nearly 100,000 lives have been lost, since then. a quarter million, in the last three months. 500,000-plus, in about a year. and though, there are any number of ways of expressing these

awful figures. whether it's so many football stadiums, this many towns, this city or that. or these wars, combined. it boils down to this. by now, we all know someone who grieves. or worse, someone who's gone. and while, whatever scale the loss may be, whether close enough to touch or too large to grasp, it's clear, by now, that we've all seen too much. more on this tonight, along with confirmation hearings for the first attorney general, in four years, who is not expected to serve as the president's personal lawyer. and captain suly sullen berger on the dramatic engine failure on a 777 over the weekend. and growing concerns about the engines in question. and because it's one of those mondays, there's more. it's actually where we begin. with the supreme court clearing the way for the former president's accounting firm to turn over his taxes to a manhattan-grand jury. in other words, with apologies to gerald ford, our long-national farce is over.

and make no mistake. it's been going on longer than you might imagine. just shy of a decade since the once private citizen said this. >> maybe, i'll do the tax returns when obama does his birth certificate. >> well, president obama did do his birth certificate but the failed-casino operator did not do the tax returns. and here's what he said about it three years later. >> you questioned his citizenship during his campaign. and you said, afterwards, you produce your tax returns but you didn't do it, did you? >> well, i don't know. did he do it? and i will be -- if i decide to run for office, i'll produce my tax returns, absolutely. and i would love to do that. >> love to. mean it. but, no. it's kind of like that new yorker cartoon where the guy says to someone on the phone, no, thursday's out. how about never? is never good for you?

>> at some point, prior to the election, i am going to be giving out a financial report. >> i don't mind releasing. i am under a routine audit and it'll be released. >> well, i think donald trump has every intention of releasing his tax returns once a routine audit is completed. >> i will release my tax returns, against my lawyer's wishes. when she releases her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. >> i would love to give them. but i'm not going to do it while i am under audit. it's very simple. >> any closer to releasing your tax returns? >> well, i am thinking about it. i am thinking about, maybe, when we find out the true story on hillary's e-mails. >> and that's where they left it. it is not, however, where it stands, now. more on that from our randi kaye. >> i was attracted to him, yeah. he's -- he's a nice-looking man. >> reporter: that's former playboy model, karen mcdougal,

sharing details about her alleged affair with donald trump. adult storm actress, stormy daniels, claims she had an affair with trump around the same time. >> and you had sex with him? >> yes. >> reporter: donald trump has denied having a relationship with either woman or knowing anything about alleged attempt toss silence them in the final months of his 2016 campaign. but so-called hush-money payments, made to these two women, are at the heart of new york prosecutor, cyrus vance's investigation. and now, with the supreme court latest ruling, vance will have access to years of trump's personal and corporate-tax returns dating back to 2011. in 2018, trump was asked about so-called hush-money payments made by his former-attorney and fixer, michael cohen. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. no. what else? >> well, you have to ask michael cohen. michael's my attorney. and you'll have to ask michael

cohen. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> i don't know. >> during michael cohen's congressional testimony, he suggested trump was, very much, in the know. as he wired $130,000 to stormy daniels' lawyer. >> in addition to the personal check for $35,000, in july, 2017, is there additional-corroborating evidence that mr. trump, while a sitting president of the united states, directly reimbursed you, hush money, as part of a criminal scheme to violate campaign-finance laws? >> there are 11 checks that i received for the year. >> reporter: the new york prosecutor will be looking to these documents for possible violations of campaign-finance law, by trump and his family. also, whether the trump organization disguised hush-money payments as legal expenses. beyond that, prosecutors in new york are hoping to figure out the source of trump's wealth, who his business partners are, who has loaned him money, and whether the trump organization profited during his presidency.

no doubt, investigators will want to know how, in 2016 and 2017, trump paid just $750 in federal-income taxes, according to "the new york times." and took some bizarre deductions, including $70,000 to take care of his hair, and writing off hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to his daughter, ivanka, as a consultant for the trump organization. all of it, perhaps, part of those alleged-aggressive tax-avoidance tactics that michael cohen alluded to during congressional testimony. >> mr. trump inflated his total assets, when it served his purposes. such as, trying to be listed amongst the wealthiest people in "forbes." and deflated his assets, to reduce his real-estate taxes. everything was done, with the knowledge, and at the direction, of mr. trump. >> reporter: as a sitting president, donald trump couldn't be indicted. but now, citizen trump, is no longer protected by the walls of the oval office.

and randi kaye joins me now live from palm beach near mar-a-lago. randi, i can't imagine the former president is sitting at home, tonight, happy about this. >> no, in fact, he's just here at mar-a-lago, across the water here, behind me, john. and you're right. he's probably very unhappy about this. as you know, he's been fighting the release of his financial records, now, for years. and his tax returns. in fact, after the supreme court issued its decision today, he issued a statement lashing out at the court and the investigation. calling it a continuation of the greatest-political witch hunt in the history of our country. but there is a bright spot for the former president, here, john. the fact is, is that his tax records and these financial documents will not be released to the public. they are not going to be given to congress, unless that new york prosecutor, cyrus vance, files charges. in that case, those records would be part of the court record. part of the public record. and we would all be able to see them. but for now, they will be kept only for the eyes for that grand

jury and for those investigators. but i can tell you, john, that the horse is really out of the barn. i mean, the former president has exhausted all efforts here to keep those records private. his accounting firm, issuing a statement, as well, saying that they are committed to fulfilling all of their professional and legal obligations. so, again, all efforts exhausted here, for the former president, john. >> all right. interesting. randi kaye, thank you very much. joining us now, "new york times," suzanne craig, who shared the 2019 pulitzer prize for her reporting on the former president's finances. also, cnn legal analyst and former obama white house ethic czar. i want to start with you because you know as much about the former president's tax information, probably, as much as any private citizen in the u.s. what do you think would be most significant that prosecutors will now have access to? >> well, it's interesting because the news today and the headline is, is that the tax returns are going to be turned over. but what is actually, i think,

really significant about today's decision is the tax returns are one piece of it. and also, to be turned over are going to be the records from the accounting firm, which will include notes and communications between the accounting firm and the -- donald trump and the trump organization. and i think, with all of this information that's coming in, they are going to start to be able to piece together what they're looking for. for example, you know, just on the payment to stormy daniels that's been much discussed. you know, we don't see that in the tax-return information that we have. it's not there. it's not a line item. but they, potentially, be able to get a lot of detailed information about what is in the legal category and that could be there. it may not be. but they are going to start to be able to see a picture that's going to come together. >> talk a little more about that because that's interesting, suzanne. obviously, in the tax returns, you are not going to see a line item that says hush money to porn star. it doesn't work like that in the tax returns. >> or, you know, there could have been a payment that we would have seen in the tax returns to stormy daniels. it's just not there.

but it could have been put in another category, like legal fees. where we just don't have transparency into it, with the tax-return information that we saw. but cy vance in manhattan now is going to be able to go and potentially get all of that, sort of, detailed stuff. and i think that's when this is going to start to come together. when you see the pieces being put together through all these disparate pieces of information. >> that's an important distinction. it's the notes and other information from the acocountin firm, itself, that could be the decoder ring to understanding the tax returns, some of which you've seen. >> the accounting firm has notes so it's going to be really interesting to see what's in there. >> ambassador, you say the accountability era against donald trump now begins. what do you mean? >> john, thanks for having me back on the program. ex-president trump managed to, successfully, forestall criminal, civil, two impeachments, regulatory, and a

variety of other, legal remedies. but he could only delay them, john, because, in our rule-of-law system, as the supreme court wrote, when it first decided the -- the manhattan da's right to subpoena these materials. nobody, including a president, is above the law. so now, he's going to face very serious jeopardy. when i worked on the first impeachment, we looked at these records for the hush-money payments. and prosecutors have said that they were not accurately booked. now, these mazar's work papers may shed some light on them. there is a lot of other records on that. there's tax issues. there is insurance issues. there is bank-loan issues and that's just one case, john. he is also looking at serious, potential, criminal liability in georgia for his shameful call to brad raffensperger, to just find 11,780 votes. civil cases and on and on.

so, accountability is coming for donald trump. >> in terms of just the taxes and the financial information, how much jeopardy do you think he is in or could be in, norm? and put it in perspective because, you know, we know that a sitting president kntcan't be criminally charged or hasn't been criminally charged. but it's pretty unprecedented for a former president to face criminal charges, too, isn't it? >> it is. but we have never had a president like donald trump, before, john. i think it's healthy that this is unfolding, at the state level, including in new york because you don't like to see that specter of -- of donald trump saying, well, the guy who beat me is now retaliating. there's no question about that. and i think the -- the jeopardy is -- is substantial. just look at the hush-money payments. we know -- we already have some evidence, in the public record, that those were reflected as legal fees. john, they were not legal fees.

and in new york state, when you create false books and records to cover up for another issue. and we know michael cohen pled guilty to campaign-finance crimes, in connection with these hush-money payments. that's a class-e felony. that is a serious felony. and that's just the hush-money payments. as suzanne says, there's so much more in new york and that's before you get to the other criminal and civil cases. so, donald trump has got to be feeling very, very uneasy, tonight. >> suzanne, we heard in randi kaye's piece, from michael cohen, who was talking about some of the things that the president, former president, is to alleged to have done from inflating the value of his properties for better-loan deals. to undervaluing them for tax purposes. based on what you know and what you've seen, what would be the holy grail here for prosecutors? what questions do you have that are unanswered? >> well, i mean, i just think

going deeper into the documents and matching up, you know, some of the things that aren't in the tax returns that could be deeper in the doc -- in other documents that they have. you know, you mentioned evaluations, that's one thing that's been talked about a lot on that. i mean, valuations can be tricky because normally, a valuation comes from a professional adviser and you can say, well, i relied on professional advice. but then, you have to go deeper and say, did they seek two or three evaluations? did they go valuation shopping? and these are the things i think potentially embedded in some of the other information that -- that cy vance, the prosecutor that's involved, will be getting. >> and just one last question, suzanne. consulting fees for ivanka trump, which is something that you ekxposed in your reporting. what more information might there be on that? >> i think you are just going to be looking for specifics about where the money went, also -- not only to ivanka but whether a consulting fee's paid to his

other children. i mean, what did they do to earn them? was it a no-show thing? or what, exactly, was behind those fees? was it -- was it an attempt to simply avoid the gift tax? those are the kind of things they will be looking for. >> suzanne craig, norm eisen. next, our medical team on today's covid milestone. but also, what could be the road to recovery. and later, the long-haul airliner you are most likely to fly and questions about safety in the wake of a fiery-engine failure over the rockies over the weekend. my conversation with captain sully sullenberger, ahead, on 360. under one account. i was able to lower my monthly payments and feel like i'm well on my way to becoming debt free. and i have sofi to thank for that. ♪ bottom line is, mom's love that land o' frost premium sliced meats have no by-products. (his voice) “baloney!”

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visit enbrel.com to see how your joint damage could progress. enbrel. eligible patients may pay as little as $5 per month. the president, tonight, spoke to the tremendous sadness of the moment. and of tonight's covid milestone. he also reminded americans to take heart in how far we have climbed back up, as a nation. half a million lives have been lost. but as of tonight, more than 64

million vaccination doses have been given. perspective now on the moment from cnn chief medical correspondent, dr. sanjay gupta. also, cnn medical analyst and former baltimore health commissioner, dr. leana wen. and, sanjay, you know, it's interesting. president biden expressed sadness, and shared a moment of grief with the american people. and that's important, emotionally and psychologically. but it, also, might be important, in terms of battling this pandemic because, one of the most significant things that you note, as we sit here, 500,000 deaths later, is the possibility of something, you call, empathy fade. the idea that we're -- we've lost the ability to care enough, anymore. why is that so important? >> well, you know, john. first of all, it -- it -- this is -- it's a sad -- it's a sad moment, you know, obviously, what is happening, as you said. and it's -- you know, it makes you angry, as well, i think, because you do -- you do realize so many of these deaths were preventable. and -- and there are still

lessons to be learned right now. i mean, no one should be looking at this in the rear-view mirror. we still have to -- there is lessons we have learned over the last year that can still be applied right now and lives can be saved. but, you know, tell you the story of one person who has died from covid. and you -- you will listen to that story, and maybe have a lot of empathy. if i tell you that story, 500,000 times, what happens is that people's compassion starts to fade. or their empathy starts to fatigue. and, you know, i'm -- my -- my point was, earlier, is that we can't let that happen. we cannot let that happen because that would be the -- that would be essentially missing the biggest lesson of all. that we just become -- that this becomes normal. that these numbers sort of wash over us and we sort of suffer from this psychic numbness. this is not normal. i think about this with my kids all the time. they should not think that what happened this past year was normal. it should never happen again and we got to learn the lessons now to make sure that happens. >> i think it's san important

point. such an important point. dr. wen, what's going through your mind tonight? >> well, i think, to what sanjay just mentioned about this really unthinkable milestone that we've just hit. i, also, think about all the lives that we could have saved. but didn't because of a variety of things that happened. lack of a national response. and i, also, think about what still needs to be done. my biggest fear, right now, is complacency. we do see the numbers trending in the right direction, thankfully. cases falling. hospitalizations falling. deaths falling, at last. but we are not out the woods, yet. we don't have nearly-enough immunity, in the u.s., from vaccines, from people recovering. and we still have the vast majority of the country that's still potentially susceptible to coronavirus. there are projections that we could lose upwards of 150,000 people in the u.s., by the summer. and all those deaths and suffering that's to come, just

as we've been saying for the entire pandemic, this is not preordained. there are things that we can do right now to continue to be on our guard for one another. the vaccines are coming. they are fantastic, and there's so much hope. but there are things that each of us can still do, right now, to protect ourselves and one another. >> and what happens depends on what we do. and what has happened is, very much, a result of the decisions we made. and, sanjay, as you have noted before, this is uniquely american failure, what's happened here over the last year. over these 500,000 deaths. what do you think the major lessons that have been learned are? >> it's -- this is the thing i've been thinking about the most, john, i think, over the last several months now. you know, i mean, some of them are very tangible lessons. we didn't invest in our public-health system. and this is sort of a -- a -- a sort of larger problem. we tend not to invest in things that are preventative. that -- that we don't, you know, have an immediate benefit. you know, things that are

invisible. we tend to pay less attention to. so, this idea that we could've -- not maybe essentially become pandemic proof, as some people have described it to me. with investments of 10, $15 billion. and that -- those suggestions were made. and yet, we didn't do it. so, our public-health system. but i think a lot of it, john, also, has to do with just how we evaluate risk in our society. i was having this conversation with someone the other day. if it was primarily young children who were affected by this, would our response have been different? do we value the elderly less in this country? i bring it up because it is a philosophical thing. there are so many tangible things. testing, masks, communication, sourcing of materials, supplies, all those types of things. but just, who are we? our humanity. what -- what did we really show? i think that -- that is something that, you know, really harmed us here because, so many of these deaths, again, as leana and i have been saying, were preventable. no family likes to hear that their loved one's death was preventable. and i apologize for saying that. but so many were, and -- and we

still can apply the lessons that we're learning right now, to the future. >> dr. wen, in terms of new information and where we are tonight, dr. rochelle walensky, head of the cdc, talked about a new study during today's briefings that shows teachers were a probable source of several school-related covid-19 outbreaks. but the director didn't say that teachers need to get more priority for vaccines. how do you reconcile that? >> yeah. it's a major mistake. the cdc and the biden administration needs to step up right now. and say that teacher vaccinations are essential. they keep on saying that it's up to state governments, and not the federal government. this is not true. the federal government can allocate vaccines, specifically for teachers. they can even deploy the national guard to give vaccinations to educators, to school staff. if getting our children back in school, in person, is really a priority, we need to be vaccinating our teachers. and as sanjay mentioned, this is about societal priorities. and i think it's time for the biden administration to show us what their priorities really are.

and if it's about children and our future, then we should also be protecting teachers and z school staff, too. >> sanjay, dr. wen, thank you both for what you have done tonight and also throughout the whole year throughout all of this. appreciate it. just ahead. almost five years in the making. judge merrick garland, finally, gets a senate-confirmation hearing. this time, as president biden's pick to be attorney general. sharply, partisan questions. but also, a moment that silenced the world. the details, when we return. ...and then what happened daddy? well, see this handsome man, his name was william. and william fell in love with rose and they had a kid. his name was charles and charles met martha... isn't she pretty? yeah.

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almost five years after president obama nominated him for the supreme court, merrick garland finally got a senate hearing. denied him, by republicans. not for the top court in the land as in 2016 but this time as in the nation's top law enforcement official. attorney general. more now on an intense hearing from congressional correspondent, ryan nobles. merrick garland. president biden's pick for attorney general making it clear the justice department he runs will be different from the one he would inherit. >> i am not the president's lawyer. i am the united states' lawyer.

>> reporter: garland pledged an independent doj. one, that would follow the rule of law, and pursue prosecutions aimed at confronting america's biggest problem. >> if confirmed, i will supervise the prosecution of white supremacists and others, who stormed the capitol on january 6th. the heinous attack that sought to disrupt a cornerstone of our democracy, the peaceful transfer of power to a newly-elected government. >> reporter: garland, a federal judge, said the investigation into the january-6th insurrection will be a massive job, and his top priority. >> i think, this was the most heinous attack on a dem -- on the democratic processes that i've ever seen, and one that i never expected to see in my lifetime. one of the very first things i will do is get a briefing on the progress of this investigation. i intend to give the career

prosecutors, who are working on this matter, 24/7, all the resources they could possibly require to do this. >> reporter: garland took tough questions from republican senators, on a wide range of controversial topics, like, his support of the death penalty for oklahoma city bomber, timothy mcveigh. something, he says, he doesn't regret. and garland says he has now come to question capital punishment, in general. >> because of how seldom it's applied and because of its disparate impact on black-americans, and members of other communities of color. those are the things that give me pause. >> he also pushed back on the idea of de-funding the police. >> president biden has said he does not support de-funding the police. and neither do i. >> arguing that, while reform of policing is necessary, a wholesale reduction in funding is not the answer. >> ryan nobles joins us now. ryan, democrats, obviously,

supportive of the garland nomination. what are you hearing from republicans, though? >> john, it looks right now as though this nomination is going to sail through the united states senate. you know, joe biden obviously going with a more moderate pick in merrick garland and that seems to have resonated with republicans. and they were particularly impressed by his performance gr leaving saying they believed he should be confirmed. merrick garland is no longer one of them. and he is expected to be confirmed, as the next-attorney general, in very-short order. >> ryan nobles, thanks very much. so perhaps, the most poignant moment of the day. judge garland's response to a question about how his own, painful, family history informed his career and prosecuting injustice intolerance. >> i come from a family, where my grandparents fled anti-semitism and persecution.

the country took us in. and protected us. and i feel an obligation to the country to pay back, and this is the highest, best use of my own set of skills to pay back. and so, i want, very much, to be the kind of attorney -- attorney general that you're saying i could become. and i'll do my best to try and be that kind of attorney general. >> i believe your heart. >> what a moment. perspective, now, from cnn chief national correspondent, john king. and cnn chief political analyst, gloria borger. gloria, i mean, the emotion in that moment was -- was palpable. i mean, you could sense the room stood still in that hearing room, and beyond, when judge garland was talking about it. is and not just because of what he was saying there but also his

history. prosecuting oklahoma city. the history, now, with the attack on the u.s. capitol. the history going forward. the fact that judge garland has pledged to prosecute white supremacy and the crimes that arise from that. it really was remarkable. >> it was a remarkable moment. and what you could hear in his voice is, really, somebody who spent his entire career, devoted to public service. and when he talks about pay back, he's not talking about payback, like, you know, like we've heard over the last four years, as in vengeance or revenge. he is talking about paying back, to this country, that he is so devoted to. and when you look at his resume, it is a resume of public service. and i don't think that anybody sitting in that room, whether they agree with the biden agenda or disagree with the biden agenda, could not help but feel simpatico with him because they, too, in their own ways, some more than others, consider themselves public servants.

and there's, you know, you can only admire that what he was sa there. >> john, the messaging wasn't subtle, overall, with judge garland. it never is. particularly, not this time, with judge garland saying i am not going to be the president's attorney. i'm going to be, you know, the attorney of the united states. and what a time to take over, as the attorney of the united states. i mean, there is so much to do. >> look. across his desk, in the months ahead, he is going to be confirmed easily. he is going to get overwhelming-republican support, as well as democrats. he is going to have to make a tough decision about the president's son, perhaps. the delaware attorney general, u.s. attorney, excuse me, looking into hunter biden's taxes. if there's nothing there, it's still a difficult decision. he has to be transparent, and try to convince republican skeptics they scrubbed it and that's the way it came out. rudy giuliani investigations. possible-trump investigation. so he is saying he was not the president's lawyer. he wants to remove politics from the justice department. e

he wants to remove politics in terms of the president's relationship with the attorney general. you know, a lot of politics is going to come across his desk. plus, the insurrection investigations. plus, race relations. plus, voting rights. this is an incredibly difficult job and an incredibly consequential moment. >> and, gloria, he did face direct questions about what are you going to do about the hunter-biden investigations? what are you going to do about andrew cuomo, in new york? what are you going to do about the u.s. attorney investigation into the russia investigation? how do you think he answered those questions? >> he said, i don't know, yet. i don't know enough about it, yet. what he -- what he did say and what he did make clear is that he has not talked to the president of the united states about hunter biden. and that, he has not, yet, picked up the phone and called john durham, who is doing the investigation into the fbi's role in the trump-russia matter. that he is someone, who, like a good judge, hasn't heard the case, yet. and so, he -- he showed that he

had an open mind. that he wasn't likely to sweep anything under the rug. and don't -- don't forget. there's a context here for merrick garland. people respect him, as a judge. we know what happened five years ago. and what a difference five years makes. when he couldn't get a hearing as a supreme-court nominee. but, he comes into that, into that role, with a lot of respect, on both sides of the aisle. so when he says i got to figure it out, i think they have to take him at his word. >> gloria, john, don't go far. when we return, he's back. or he will be. this weekend, the former president will give his first-public speech since leaving office. and by the sound of it, the far right already got the talking points. we'll explain, when "360" returns.

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the supreme court decision on the former president's tax

documents comes just as he is about to make his first public appearance since living the white house. he is scheduled to speak this weekend at the annual conservative political action conference, known more commonly as cpac. a source tells cnn the speech will be about the future of the republican party and conservative movement. for instance, just this weekend, the number-two republican in the house, congressman steve scalise, was repeatedly asked a simple question about who won the election. and he couldn't answer it. >> the election was not stolen. correct? >> look, joe biden's the president. there were a few states that did not follow their state laws. that's really the dispute that you've seen continue on. >> i asked you, is he the legitimate president of the united states? and do you concede that this election was not stolen? very simple question. please, just answer it. >> once -- once the -- once the electors are counted, yes, he is the legitimate president.

but if you are going to ignore the fact that there were states that did not follow their own state, legislatively-set laws, that's the issue at heart. >> so those replies, as squirrely as they are, aren't as bad as what's on the agenda at cpac. for starters, there is a seven-part series on protecting elections, that's right. seven parts. it spans almost the entirety of the conference. and just to give you a taste of what's in store. here are some of the session titles. protecting elections part two. why judges and media refuse to look at the evidence. there is protecting elections, part three. the left pulled the strings, covered it up, and even admits it. and if a seven-part series isn't enough, there is also this panel. did your vote count? ask the experts. back with us, john king and gloria borger. and, john, the titles of these sessions really get to the world that the former president is now living in. you say it's almost a parallel universe. what do you mean? >> it is a parallel universe. look. what happened today? america marked this horrific,

horrific milestone. 500,000 of our friends and neighbors and relatives, dead, from covid. most of that is on president trump, who walked away from science, walked away from common sense, ignored a pandemic on his watch. what happened january 6th? on insurrection that came after a rally led by the former president. he is stained by history. he is stained by his actions. he is stained by his record. but has what used to be an organization born of william f. buckley about conservative ideas, about rebels, about challenging the establishment. now, it's the trump-sycophant society. that's it, plain and simple. that organization doesn't exist anymore. this is the trump-parallel universe right now. let's keep promoting the big lie. the big lie that is an attack on the truth, attack on the fact, attack on decency, and attack on democracy. go for it. >> gloria, one person who will not be at cpac this weekend is the former vice president, mike pence. and you've got some new reporting, tonight, on the relationship between the former president and former vice

president. and what's been going on there? what ever you learned? >> i was told by a knowledgeable source that pence and trump have spoken a couple of times since the inauguration. pence called trump, once. and it went the other way around, the other time. and i was told that the relationship is amicable. that's it. my source would go no further, and would not describe the contents of the phone calls. but as you mention, pence has decided to hang back and stay quiet for six months. and my source said to me, look. this is the tradition. remember that? of the outgoing president and vice president. give the president, the new president, some room. obviously, donald trump has decided not to do that. and mike pence has decided, yeah, i'm going to hang back a little bit. and that may be more about him and trying to see the lay of the land than anything else. >> all right. that's interesting. trying to figure out where mike pence currently fix -- fits on the republican spectrum.

john, where does he fit on the republican spectrum, going forward? >> that's -- it's tough. the old mike pence was a christian-conservative. he was sort of a chamber of commerce, lower taxes, less washington, right? when he was in house of representatives, then as indiana governor, he was your traditional if you are a democrat out there, you might disagree with him. if you are a liberal out there, you might disagree with him. but he was a principled conservative coming out of his christian faith, midwest roots, if you will. he is trump's vice president. that's hard to escape. he is smart right now, john, lay low. lay low because you don't want to be part of promoting the big lie, again. lay low because you want to respect the new administration as it tries to deal with the pandemic. lay low because you never know what donald trump is going to do and if you are mike pence, you have been caught up in enough of it already. can he recover from that? we got a long way to go to 2024 and beyond. so pence is doing the smart thing right now, just stay out of it. >> right, and don't forget, he's got different friends from the president. i mean, for example, arizona

governor doug ducey is a very close friend of mike pence's. he runs the republican governors association. so, has he broken up that relationship? absolutely not. >> i -- we should add, john. what would happen -- what would have happened to mike pence, had he walked on stage at cpac, given the fact that he presided on january 6th when they verified the electoral-college count? how would that crowd have received him? >> the program you just went through answers your question. they are going to still continue to promote the big lie. mike pence honored the constitution. he honored his duty, on that day. and again, all the praise he got from democrats who didn't think much of mike pence for the first, you know, three years and 11 months of the trump administration, he did stand up in the end and he did the right thing. now, there are a lot of trump supporters on the floor of cpac who would remember his loyalty to the president for most of it but you're right. the anger right now for those who still want to promote the big lie and help the former president live in fantasy land. that he won the election in a landslide, as he likes to say, they still have issues with mike pence. he is smart to stay away from

all of that. >> and what will donald trump say about mike pence there? >> it's a great question. i mean, what will he say, in general, when he goes onto that stage? and who will help him prepare for it, if anyone? what will his message be, if anything, coherent? we don't have answers to those yet. i think there is a great deal of concern in some republican he can be ready. lindsey graham spent time golfing with the former president. and sharing his phone so call u.s. senators to tell them you had my back i'm going to have yours now. >> lindsey graham wants to portray this as donald trump wants to help us win back control of the senate and he's working day and night to make sure it happens. what this is really about for donald trump is vengeance, revenge, call it what you will.

he wants to get back at those folks and primary those people or help primary those people who weren't with him on the big lie. that's what this is about for donald trump. watch out if you were on the other side of this, in the house or in the senate or whether you're deciding to run for office, for donald trump there's one litmus test. that is you have to buy into the rigged election. and as john was pointing out, is that what the republican party has become? >> john, i have to imagine people he didn't call might be more interested than those who did. >> donald trump selfless team player said no one ever. thank you both for being with us. appreciate it. up next, more of the airborne drama over the weekend. an engine on fire, debris falling from the sky. i'll talk with sully sullenberger who knows a thing or two about an aircraft in distress.

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new developments in the united airlines flight over the weekend where the engine of a 777 -- where it took off. caught on fire. here's what the right engine looked like. that's not what passengers or crew wanted to see when they look out the window. the engine cover was torn off and debris fell to the ground. korean air grounded all 777s with that same type of engine and boeing suggests the same for all using the engine. perspective from someone with an expert eye. with us, captain sully sullenberger who famously landed his damaged u.s. air flight on the hudson river in 2009. captain, thank you for joining us. i want to play some of the may day call from the aircraft and get your thoughts so let's listen. >> 228. heavy engine failure. need to turn. may day. may day. united air 28.

328 heavy. we experienced engine failure. denver departure united 328 heavy aircraft. just experienced an engine failure. need to turn around immediately. >> what did you hear of that and how the captain and crew handled the situation? >> well, they were doing what aviation professionals do. they're doing their job and doing it professionally. let me tell you from personal experience, it's very rare to hear someone say may day on the radio. years ago i happened to hear an airport fire chief talk about an aircraft accident he had worked. he said his advice to everybody in the profession is manage the situation or the situation will manage you. and clearly this crew is managing the situation. >> so the investigation obviously ongoing, but from some of the video you have seen the pictures of the debris, and the fact that now we are hearing about the ideas of fractures in the fan blades.

what do you think happened? >> well, it's too urgent to tell. that's part of what the investigation will find out over many months. but from the photographs i've seen, at least one piece, probably from an engine, entered the right side of the airplane below the right wing. it seems to be an uncontained engine failure. as you probably know. engine failures in airliners are rare. and uncontained failures are even more rare. in fact, on our famous flight that landed in the hudson a number of years ago, i had been flying at that point for 42 years, 20,000 hours in the air. even though we practiced for engine out procedures, i had never experienced that. our technology is very reliable, but the fact that this happened and we've had some similar accidents in the last several months and last several years, it's red flags that perhaps we

don't have as good an understanding of these particular engines as we thought. and i'm sure they'll be reviewing the design, the inspection protocols, the technology that's used to look for microscopic defects. and the maintenance procedures and trading done. they'll find the answers and correct whatever flaws they find in the entire system. >> so you know better than most what it's like to experience this kind of emergency. how much does this safe outcome depend on the training? how much depends on the type of person, the type of mind set and experience about the people in the cockpit? >> experience matters. it often makes the difference between success and failure, life and death. but we all train intensely. so over many decades, we have to attain the skill, the knowledge, the experience and the judgment to handle whatever happens even if it's a novel event we'd never trained for. one of the other things we have to develop over many years is to be able to calm ourselves when a

sudden extreme crisis hits. there's a huge startle effect, and we'll be aware of it as it happens when your blood pressure and blood pressure spike and sometimes our perception narrows and tunnel vision. but we have to summon up the focusing on the task at hand in spite of the task. -- stress. that's something pilots are able to do and in a moment's notice solving problems like this. we have trained as crews to help and support and cross check each other. and we also have protocols to follow that will help us solve these problems one at a time until we solve them all. >> captain, an honor to get your perspective. thank you so much for taking the time. >> thank you. good to be with you. let's hand it over to chris for cuomo prime time. >> thank you. welcome to prime time. question. what do we have more of than anywhere else?