[ring] [ring ring]

[ring] oh no... i thought i just ordered tacos. nope! sushi... ramen... burgers... tandoori chicken... some milk from the store, and... ...and, let me guess. cookies? wha, me hungry! yeah. here, i'll call some friends to help us eat. yeah, that good idea. yeah. get more from your neighborhood. doordash. hey yo, grover! you like ramen? it is a busy news night and the news continues. let's turn it over to my good friend chris cuomo, primetime. >> welcome to primetime. imagine you're watching men kill another man. that's what you believe. and they keep trying to kill him despite your screams, your begging them to stop, and you can't call the cops because the men are the cops.

the second day of testimony in the trial of derek chauvin brought that pain that for most of us, thank god, is just imaginary. but for too many it is real and it was said in full with deeply emotional accounts from witnesses as young as 9 years old. most weren't allowed to be shown on camera because they are under age. listen -- >> do you recognize this man? >> yes. >> do you remember what he was doing? how do you know him? >> he was put knee on the neck of george floyd. >> do you see him in the courtroom today? >> no. >> okay. how about him? >> yes. >> having been there on this day and seeing the officer on top of george floyd how did you feel about that? how did it affect you? >> i was sad and kind of mad. >> 9 years old.

one after another, kids, young adults, parents, first responders, all with uncommonly consistent recollections of the event. remember, it is rare for eyewitnesses, even though they see the exact same thing to see it the exact same way but that's the case here. each echoing the same agony of pleading with officers to free floyd from the nina he was pinned under for more than nine minutes. these are emotions that reverberate in the streets outside the court and all over the country. let's be honest, this is not just another trial. it is a flash point. and absolutely, what happens in that courtroom, can't be about politics. it must be about fairness under fact and law. but also it is dishonest to say that the outcome won't have a major influence on society potentially.

now, one of the most powerful accounts came from that 9-year-old girl's cousin. the cousin is the teenager who recorded the most crucial piece of evidence at this trial. the video of floyd's death that set off a national reckoning on systemic injustice. >> it's been nights i stayed up apologizing and apologizing to george floyd for not doing more and not physically interacting and not saving his life. but it's like, it's not what i should have done, it's what he should have done. >> that is darnella fraser breaking down in tears on the sand. so did a minneapolis firefighter who testified she was prevented helping floyd by the officers

who are now suspects in his murder. the helplessness. the pain of those who were forced to look on as a man died, was brought home by a young man who told the jury he believes it was murder, and that's why he called the cops on the cops in that moment. listen. >> at some point did you make a 911 call? >> that is correct. i did call the police on the police. >> when why did you do that? >> because i believe i witnessed a murder. >> you're going to hear a lot in the media about donald williams. he first appeared on this show, by the way. we had an exclusive interview with him after floyd's killing but you're hearing about it because of what occurred in the cross-examination with defense counsel. and i'm going to show you that. but his real impact today of that testimony didn't come from what happened with the defense attorney, it came from what the

defense counsel failed to do during his testimony. it is the first major mistake that i've seen in this, it's a young trial, but it could be a major factor for the jury. what is it? let's discuss. back with us tonight, a better mind who knows what it's like to prosecute a case like this, former federal prosecutor elliott williams, a former deputy assistant ag, attorney general. good to see you, brother. >> hey, chris. >> the reason people are talking about williams is because of a contentious back and forth during cross with defense counsel. let's play one of the most pertinent parts of it. >> in that statement you said, like i really wanted to beat the shit out of the police officers. you said that. >> yeah, i did. that's how i felt. >> you were angry. >> no, you can't make pain as anger. i was in a position where i had to be controlled.

>> those terms grew more and more angry, would you agree with that? >> they grew more and more pleading for life. >> now, elliott, one, you've got bad optics here, paint the black guy as an angry guy, defending the white guy who killed the black guy, that's the allegation. those are optics. what you and i agree on here is that's not what makes williams' testimony so powerful for the jury it's what defense counsel failed to do when williams uttered his -- you know, these reverberating words of i thought i was witnessing a murder. what did the defense counsel do when he said that? >> well he did nothing and he should have objected to it. that was a statement that, on its face, should not have been allowed in court. we haven't been seeing a a lot of objections in this trial. that's more common than law and order. people in real trials don't object all the time but when a

witness says i thought i was witnessing a murder, what that witness has done is made a legal conclusion and that is not the role of a witness in a criminal trial. it's the role of the judge to instruct the jury as to what murder is and then the jury to apply the facts to the law and say, well, you know, either we think this was a murder or we don't. what the witness was doing was making a legal opinion, and immediately the defense attorney should have objected to that and frankly, you know, the judge could have stepped in at that point too and said, you know what, you can say what you saw, you can say you saw the knee on the neck or whatever but you can't use that word murder and the jury heard it. you can't unring that bell and now it's out there. >> one, the zone was flooded with poignant testimony. so you could see how, if you're not on your game, you could get lulled. but for those who aren't lawyers, who are at home, this is lawyer speak, no, this matters. the jury now heard as acceptable to the record as a matter of

fact that this witness believed what he saw was a murder. how powerful can that be in deliberations? >> well, it's almost like they put a 13th juror in there now and you've put someone who's come across as a relatively credible witness. now, the defense attacked him a little bit, and, you know, with his mixed martial arts and his opinions and, you know, he was angry, like you said a black man, didn't use the word, but painting him as a black man who's angry. but the word has been said and it's someone that can at least back, if the jury wishes to convict, they can say look, this guy we heard, who was there at the scene, also believes this was a murder, perhaps maybe it was a murder. remember, jurors are picked on the basis of their just not understanding -- not having an understanding of the case, and being willing to be blank slates about the law, and when someone tells them what a murder is, maybe they'll credit it and maybe they'll believe it. >> two interesting choices by the prosecution today. the first one is bringing kids on. why?

some people are turned off by it. don't do this to the kids. make your case, you've got plenty of adults but there was power in hearing these kids speak today. what did you think of the tactic, how do you think it worked out? >> look, kids are very compelling witnesses, you have to be delicate and careful and both sides, no matter who is questioning a child needs to be careful, make them feel frankly loved and respected because they're just delicate and this is a 9-year-old who was clearly traumatized. they had to make her feel heard. the other thing, though, is that kids are to some extent, to some extent inherently credible. they have far less of a desire. they don't have the baggage that we have as adults, far less of a desire to get involved in matters. and again, in a way they're also less credible because they're kids and they're young and they don't know as much but in a way the innocence of youth is a powerful thing to put on stage, it is a stage of sorts, but to put on trial. it just requires a tremendous amount of care. if you noticed at least one of the times, maybe even all of them, i don't recall off the top

of my head, the defense didn't cross-examine some of the child witnesses because it's dangerous to cross-examine a kid. there's so many pitfalls there. >> and what you get here is a very interesting dividing line in the case between wrong and illegal. those witnesses today all went to the fact that what they watched was so obviously wrong. it was wrong to the 911 dispatcher. it was wrong to the 9-year-old. it was wrong all the way around. it was wrong to the point where a firefighter was watching and said, hey, i've got to help this guy. he's obviously in extremist, he's obviously in a very bad state and she wasn't allowed to do so. let's play some of that. >> in my memory i offered to walk -- kind of walk them through it or told them, if he doesn't have a pulse, you need to start compressions, and that wasn't done either. >> and so when it -- well, is this -- are these things that

you wanted to do? >> it's what i would have done for anybody. >> when you couldn't do that how did that make you feel? >> totally distressed. >> were you frustrated? >> yes. >> now, you've got to remember where we are on this. a lawyer asking a firefighter how did you feel? now, that question doesn't come up in court as often as you may think. reporters use it all the time because how people feel isn't really relevant most of the time, except it goes to their intent. here, they are building a case, elliott, that everybody got in their head, in their heart that this was wrong, the kid, the adult, the trained first

responder all knew that what was happening was wrong and she could have helped and so could they, but they chose not to. effectiveness level? >> quite effective. chris, say it with me. objection. the defendant didn't -- the defense didn't object to that, and probably should have. why are her feelings relevant to the fundamental question of whether derek chauvin kills george floyd? they're just not relevant. now what the defense did do today was try to attack her credibility. well, you know, you're an emt versus a paramedic. you were off duty. you were joining the mob of people that was attacking the police, and so on and that's a common tactic of defense attorneys to poke holes in the credibility of individual witnesses because here's the thing, most of the facts aren't in dispute right now until you get to the toxicology reports and the other sort of science stuff that we're going to see either later this week or next week or beyond, nothing is really up for debate that we've seen. everybody has the videos, all of the witnesses are largely -- no one's really contradicting each

other and they're all testifying to the same things so it's really the defense's job at this point to just trooilt poke holes in the credibility of the witnesses but the problem, they had a firefighter in her dress whites breaking down into tears on the stand and being quite credible, it's just a challenging witness to really dirty up, i think. >> and they didn't need it, but, you know, you could have brought on an expert, and the difference between an emt training a paramedic training for the purposes of this kind of operation is irrelevant but it was overwhelming, this aspect of the case. but as elliott just alluded, now the way i want to do this with him as much as i can get him every night is we're going to go through what we've seen. we do not have to take a step farther from that, speculation gets to be a dangerous game in these trials, especially one with the impact this one is going to have depending on the outcome, but forensics and the medical opinions and the look at george floyd's body and his condition is going to be the

best chance for doubt the defense has, that is yet to come. so we'll cover that. but not now because we're not going to speculate. when they offer it up, that's when we'll take it apart. i do want to keep you, though, elliott, if i can. stay across the break, we have developing news that's very confusing to me. i want elliott's help on this. congressman matt gaetz, the fire brand, from florida. there's a report tonight he's under federal investigation for trafficking in an underage female for purposes of sex. his response is every bit as shocking as the allegation. a lot to unpack. let's do it next.

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is denying that he had any kind of sexual relationship with a 17-year-old girl. now why does he have to do that? because "the new york times" citing sources is reporting that the doj is investigating, actual word they use is that there is an inquiry at the department of justice about a possible sexual relationship and whether gaetz paid for this young woman to travel with him. under federal law 18 is the statutory minimum age, not as it is in some states, 16 or 17. trafficking would mean you move the person from one state to another. that triggers a federal potential law. now, in a statement to cnn gaetz says in part, quote, no part of the allegations against me are true. he also tweets again, quoting over the past several weeks my family and i have been victims of an organized criminal

extortion involving a former doj official seeking $25 million while threatening to smear my name. we have been cooperating with federal authorities in this matter and my father has even been wearing a wire at the fbi's direction to catch these criminals. the justice department is not commenting. and the fbi in florida has not responded to a request for comment. lucky for us we already have a former federal prosecutor with us, elliott williams tonight, that's why i asked him to stay. inquiry versus investigation, same thing? >> no, of course not. but look, they have enough information, or they have enough evidence to at least be suspicious enough to open an inquiry into the matter and they certainly have more evidence to gather and more information to find, but this is troubling, and should be troubling for him for anyone else involved. >> here's what i don't like, elliott. >> sure. >> it doesn't smell right to me. >> no, of course not. >> six months the reporting says they've been looking at this,

six months to figure out whether or not somebody had sex with somebody else and they traveled. that's a six-day investigation. not a six month investigation. it makes me wonder if he's right about what he said. >> no, chris, i disagree with you on that because it's not just a question of whether the underlying act happened. number one, what they have to do is seize the phone records, the text chat -- the text messages and so on to establish -- the plane tickets, the bank receipts, the financial records to really establish that it happened. look, he might have texted or had some personal relationship with someone who was under age but you have to document and establish everything, and investigations just take a long time, and it's also a question of what -- >> six months? >> chris, investigations take a while to build and it's also what other charges are they looking at when -- look, when i saw "the new york times" article as you did, if there's any number of sex trafficking statutes that could be in play here the obvious one is crossing state lines with a minor to solicit an individual into

sexual activity there's also forced fraud and coercion, labor, all kinds of a other questions, but also obstruction of justice. sf if he's using incrypted materials to communicate and so on. these are all the universe of things the justice department could be looking at. it's not as open and shut as law and order svu might suggest. >> i'll give it to you. i'm just wonder ing if that block of time is suggestive of what he says. an extortion theme being a total separate matter, even if it were related to this underlying inquiry, it would be a separate inquiry, but let's listen to gaetz' defense of the allegation. >> yeah. >> on march 16th my father got a text message demanding a meeting wherein a person demanded $25 million in exchange for making horrible sex trafficking allegations against me go away. our family was so troubled by that we went to the local fbi

and the fbi and the department of justice were so concerned about this attempted extortion of a member of congress that they asked my dad to wear a wire, which he did, with the former department of justice official. tonight i am demanding that the department of justice and the fbi release the audio recordings that were made under their supervision and at their direction which will prove my innocence. >> now, look, first, if gaetz wants to be taken seriously he shouldn't be on that clown show because it immediately takes away from whether or not you can believe him. but look, fox has defended that show in court by saying it's not to be taken credibly. if you want people to believe you go on and be asked questions in a place people take you seriously. if that's true, what he just said, that this guy was trying to pinch them for money and they've been working with the feds i know that you guys, i know the fbi never wants to say it's doing anything but in fairness to matt gaetz, if any of that is true, shouldn't they say so given that the allegation

is in public? >> absolutely. if someone's extorting somebody else, let's indict that guy too. and investigate -- that's a serious crime. and he's alleging something serious and if it's true it should be investigated and people who are engaging in acts of extortion -- >> no, i'm saying i want the doj or the fbi to say what matt gaetz is saying is true. there is an ongoing matter, we won't comment anymore, you know, because right now they're leaving him out to dry. is that really fair to him? >> well, again, if there is -- there are standards as to when the justice department is going to announce a particular investigation or not. i'm learning this in realtime, just as you are. if it is real, and if it's serious, you know, it should lead to charges, and there's no question about that, and i don't think that just because it's a member of congress that many people might disagree with that we should be applauding it or applauding the extortion. what i found interesting was

matt gaetz -- i paid for plane tickets for all kinds of people. come on, that's certainly not the most credible defense to an individual who's been alleged or at least might be alleged to have engaged in an unlawful sex trafficking act. so more information will -- >> the key is, the right answer is no, i never did this, i had nothing to do with this, and -- >> oh, yeah, yeah. >> and to be honest you shine light on won't be satisfying but both things could be true, the allegation about him and that they're looking at it could be true and the allegation that somebody tried to extort because they had knowledge of it or whatever could also be true. elliott williams -- >> you know, chris, real quick, he can -- he's free to name the doj official that he says extorts him. if he knows of it, name that person. >> he did. he did. he put it out there. i'm sure the person will be dug into right away.

we'll take developments as we can. you've got to get stuff like this right. you really only got one chance at it. elliott williams, thank you very much for being our guide. appreciate you. back to our lead story, okay. this chauvin trial absolutely it has to be about law and fact. nobody should say anything differently but we also can't be dishonest about the relevance in greater society. systemic inequality is real. george floyd became a flash point and a metaphor for what so many people fear for themselves and their families around this country. michael eric dyson is joining us tonight to talk about what this trial means, especially if there is an acquittal. and he met with president biden. i want to ask him a couple questions about what he really thinks about biden and what biden needs to do. next. it's a thirteen-hour flight, that's not a weekend trip. fifteen minutes until we board. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app so you can quickly check the markets? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard

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when i look at george floyd i look at -- i look at my dad, i look at my brothers, i look at my cousins, my uncles because they are all black. i have a black father. i have a black brother. i have black friends. and i look at that, and i look at how that could have been one of them. >> now, as i was speaking earlier in the show, the first major mistake was made in this trial today by defense counsel.

that is very powerful what you just heard, and absolutely true for so many people who testified today and all over this country which is why george floyd's story resonated but those comments had no place in a criminal trial. they should have been objected to. when mr. williams said i thought i was witnessing a murder, it should have been objected to as speculation and drawing a conclusion, which is not what that witness is supposed to be doing but he didn't. and that is a really interesting call, which could come back to haunt this defense. now, the larger significance here is why we played that sound. let's bring in renowned race and religion scholar, professor, writer, friend, michael eric dyson. good to see you, brother. >> good to see you too, my friend. >> long time coming is the name of one of your works and that is

how many are looking at this trial. is that unfair in a way? yes. it's putting too much of a burden on this jury in terms of, you know, they're supposed to just do their job of law and facts but it's going to reverberate. how do you see this trial in terms of its significance in the national dialogue on systemic injustice? >> well, it's quite revelatory. there's no question that you're absolutely right in terms of the juris prudential rationality. the legal thinking that says certain things are admissible, certain things are not to be admitted. on the other hand we're sandwiched between that juris prudential outlook on the one hand and on the other hand common sense. the jurisprudence and the legal reasoning says, hey, just use your common sense, we tell the juries, use your common sense and what they're sandwiched between here is, legal rationality and common sense that tells us something horrible went down, these people are moved to tears, the young women

who are on the stand articulating ideas and emotions, you're absolutely right that in a usual courtroom they would be objected to, perhaps the defense attorney calculated the risk of looking hostile to these young women. but i think in the larger world black people are on trial with george floyd. this is our father. our brother, our son, our cousin. it's us. we look at him and say, what more do you have to do in order to prove that you were murdered unfairly, and in by saying this, isn't it interesting that the defense says there was fentanyl and other drugs found but when they opened up the body of martin luther king jr. after he was murdered in 1968 in memphis they said he had the hard of a 60-year-old man. there were other things at work there, but the overwhelming evidence is that what killed him was that bullet. i think many people here are clear that what killed this man was not fentanyl or drugs or heart disease, but the knee of a cop. >> well, as always, you've put

your finger on exactly what will be most important. i believe the reason this defense counsel allowed people to draw conclusions and say how they felt, which is not great practice titioning as a defense counsel is because he's making a bet that he wins this on the forensics so he doesn't want to upset the jury by getting in the way of all this palpable emotion. watching something that was so wrong. it was definitely wrong. can they show the prosecutor it was illegal, we'll see. joe biden, president, do you believe he is an ally to the cause of systemic justice in this country, 100%? >> without question. having met with the president, having known him for many years, i think that there is no doubt that his commitment is to serious and to sustain racial justice and he is a man who has put his reputation on the line far more many times than has been publicly acknowledged, has he made mistakes along the way in a long 45, 50 year career, absolutely, but what he has done

most especially is being self-critical, willing to be introspective, examine his own beliefs, commit himself to the principles that will be tran sen dent, bring him folk who know better than he does, consult them and then engage in public policy that will make a difference. there's no question about his commitment. >> he says he wants to go big. i remember harry bellafonte, a good friend of my family, talking to my father and saying, you know what we need to hear, mario, and my father, what, he said nothing, you need to see. what do you need to see from joe biden to show he wants to go big? what is big? what does that look like? >> looking at the system itself. we don't have to agree on the specificities and the particularities of police reform but we need teeth in these oversight committees that are charged with looking at the police. if you don't want to defund the police, fine, if that's your position to reform them, then have real reform, put teeth in

those committees, are subpoena power assigned to them, look at ways to distribute more equitably. what we consider to be public safety. use your bully pulpit to identify with the victims of misconduct and deep and profound injustice in this country. >> so my brother and my mentor, when we get closer into the forensics i want you back to talk about what the forensics mean in terms of people's reckoning of what this is really about. because i think it was a wake-up call for a lot of allies in our society, people like me, white, i don't live it, i don't understand it, i'll never be able to imagine it, but when i hear it from the people i care about i listen. and when people said that could have been me, that could have been my kid, the forensics are going to be the next layer on that in terms of how that contrasts with people's version of reality, i need you back then, please come back. >> i'd love to.

we're caught between toxicology and the toxic racial atmosphere we're being choked by. that's the choice we have in this country. >> as always, that's what i wanted to say, and you said it better. pandemic progress, all 50 states have now expanded or have dates to expand vaccine eligibility to everyone 16 and older. that is phenomenal. we could have never imagined a year ago when i was first sick that we would be where we are now. why are we more worried than ever about a fourth wave? the expert who predicted we were in the eye of the hurricane three weeks ago gives this forecast now, next. when we started carvana, they told us that selling cars 100% online wouldn't work. but we went to work. building an experience that lets you shop over 17,000 cars from home. creating a coast to coast network to deliver your car as soon as tomorrow. recruiting an army of customer advocates to make your experience incredible. and putting you in control of the whole thing

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as we continue to return to classrooms... parents like me want to make sure we're doing it safely. especially in the underserved communities hardest hit by covid. trust me, no one wants to get back to classroom learning more than teachers like me. using common sense safety measures like masks, physical distancing, and proper ventilation. safety is why we're prioritizing vaccinations for educators.

because together, we all have a responsibility to do our part. and together, we will get through this, safely. we are facing another covid-19 surge. that's what the science says. that's what the trends show. i know a lot of states are taking steps to roll back their mask mandates and i know most of us are happy about it. we're tired of it. we're frustrated. we're broke. people want to get back to business. they want to get back to life. yolo. i know, i hear it all. i feel it. but you heard the cdc director. she warned of impending doom. she said that cases could spike all over the country. our next guest warned of a category five hurricane just last month due to variants. michael osterholm shares his thoughts with us.

let's have this conversation with the people you need to have it with. too often we're preaching to the converted here. you hear this. i don't care. they are not going to be hospitalized in any big waves. people aren't getting sick as bad as they used to. the death rates aren't spiking. i get that the variants are more contagious but we've had enough. we got the vaccine. it's going to be the nice summer months. we've got to get back to life now. there will be more cases, but people will be okay. what do you say? >> first of all what we have to understand is we do have that potential for a really different life later this summer when vaccines are readily available, and that we all can have a chance to get vaccinated but right now we have very limited vaccine for most of the public and well over 50% of our country's population still is vulnerable to this virus, and what's happening now, we have this new virus, the variant

b.1.1.7, which is 70% to 100% more infectious, is 5% to 60% more likely to cause severe disease and is doing something that the other viruses and covid-19 didn't do, that's infecting young kids a lot and they're spreading the virus now and this is really fundamentally changing the entire picture of what's happening. >> so you're saying the variant isn't just something that spreads more, it can make you more sick, how sure are we of that, and what does that mean? >> well, unfortunately we have a number of road maps to follow. right now the countries in the world that actually have the highest rates of disease, which are just really skyrocketing are east central europe, all due to b.1.1.7. we've watched it go through europe. we're watching it around the world right now. and in each instance we see what it's doing, and it's in fact causing much more severe illness in 20 to 49-year-olds than we saw with the other strains and because kids are readily

spreading it we now actually see a number of 20 to 49-year-olds getting infected we didn't see before so this is in a sense rewriting the playbook and that's what we have to adjust to. now if we can just hold out, if we can just get enough vaccine between now and the summer we can actually beat this one. but what is -- as you described so very well, we're not, we're impatient. it's like we want to believe gravity doesn't exist anymore. well, it does. and that's what we're up against right now. >> the cdc director said vaccinated people do not krair carry the virus, and don't get sick. now, i've heard reports of people getting vaccinated and then getting covid. there's a disconnect. what do you believe? >> well, i think what she was referring to, basically, is it largely protects. the vaccine is 90% to 95% protective in most young healthy adults up to middle age. the older you get, it is less effective. and we know that for all vaccines. if you look at influenza vaccine the same is true.

we are seeing cases that do have breakthroughs. but generally, even if you do get sick after you've been vaccinated you're less ill. you're not as likely to be hospitalized and that's the good news. >> how much worse do you think it gets? >> well, worldwide where the darkest days are just upon us we are going to see the highest number of cases globally in the next three to five weeks that we've seen all told. >> what about here? >> in the united states it's going to be totally up to how much are we going to open? right now we're the only country in the world, get this, only country in the world where b.1.1.7, this variant, is spreading, that's opening up as opposed to closing down. in a sense we're creating the perfect storm. and, you know, i -- who's going to be the person that's going to die three days before they were scheduled to get their vaccine? i hope no one. but what we're doing right now, i think there's going to be a lot of people. >> michael osterholm, as always i have you on because you're usually right, but i hope you're wrong.

>> i do too. >> be well, talk to you again soon. >> thank you. >> this is heavy. i feel you. i feel all of it. i feel why people are frustrated but i believe guys like him. and i hate to see the pain. i just do. not only are the vaccines sparing us from getting sick, but there is a controversy coming here and i've got to tell you i haven't put a lot of stock in it but it's time that i start covering it, okay, there are people who have had covid who swear they feel better after getting the vaccine. one of my next guests a long hauler no more, because of the vaccine, a doctor i respect who i go to for help who studies this is going to help us understand what is possible, next. the harry's razor is not the same. our razors have five german engineered blades designed to stay sharp, so your eighth shave is as smooth as your first.

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vaccine. i've spoken to people who said the vaccines helped their symptoms subside, especially the pfizer one. my next guest says she experienced just that. last spring judy dodd, a teacher, began struggling with long covid symptoms, shortness of breath, headaches, exhaustion. after receiving the second dose of the covid vaccine, she said her symptoms disappeared. judy joins us now with dr. william lee, president, medical director of the angiogenesis foundation. he has been studying long haulers like judy and me. judy, you know you're with family here. i'm not here to judge you. >> thank you. >> i hope you are right. but just give us -- let's keep this light and tight. why do you believe that only after the second vaccine -- pfizer, right? did you have pfizer? >> i did. >> that you really saw a notable difference? tell the audience.

>> okay. so after my first vaccine, i was miserable, low-grade fever, fatigue, headaches, sort of mimicked kind of long-haul covid symptoms. and after my second vaccine, the next day i had a high fever, then i followed up with a couple days of fatigue and severe headaches, and then i woke up, it was a sunday morning, day four. i woke up. it was like those coffee commercials you see where the sun is just coming up. i felt great. attitude changed. i woke up ready to go. i have energy now. the shortness of breath is gone. the headaches are gone. mainly the fatigue is gone. i mean, i can do things now like normal person. i can cook dinner for my kids. i work all day. i can come home, cook dinner for

my kids, grade papers and not feel like i've been flattened by a bulldozer. so, you know -- >> it was the vaccine -- it was the vaccine that was a demarcation for you, not the folger's flavor crystals in the coffee? >> i'm sure. >> i want you to be right. dr. lee, you've been looking at this. what is the chance that there are correlation and causation for a long hauler like judy? >> you know, long haulers has been one of these twists and mysteries in covid 19. it's a disease that's confounded us at almost every turn. long haulers is another one of them. as the vaccines have been rolling out and about 40% of people who have received the vaccine, according to a recent patient survey, people who are long haulers report that their long haulers symptoms are

reduced and people actually have remission of their symptoms. so, surprise, very unlikely to be a placebo effect -- >> why? >> now we need to pay attention -- >> why? i was going to whack judy with the placebo effect. why is it not that? >> first of all, there's no reason to think that, you know -- placebo effect there is expectation for something to happen. expectations for vaccines is not to get infected. these people have already been infected like judy and are suffering. one thing about long haulers you know well, chris, is you are sensitive to how your body feels. judy is not the only person. i have a couple patients i've been taking care of who remarkably will text me out of the blue after they get their vaccine and say, dr. lee, i am feeling so much better, i can't believe it. so we can't -- we don't have the explanation yet, but we need to pay attention. something seems to be going on.

>> what percentage better do you think you are, judy? >> oh, oh, my goodness, i would say like 90%, 95%. i have to lose the covid weight, you know. that's the next hurdle. it didn't do that for me unfortunately, but yeah, like i'm almost back like i was pre-covid. so, yeah, 90% i would say. >> well, judy, know this, i love that this is your reality and i hope it becomes a reality for others. i'd love it for myself, but i hope it more for people who have more severe long haul. one of the things that's been helping me, dr. william lee can put out the supplements he gave me to take. i'm not a doctor, not in the business of the pushing anything, if you want to put out what you gave me, i feel better during the course of treatment he's giving me. which is good for him because it means i'm not bothering him as much. judy dodd, thank you for sharing your story. i'm glad for you and your family you're able to be back to yourself and being your best

self and doing what you want to do and being your best self. dr. lee, thank you for helping us understand the possibilities. appreciate you, brother. >> thank you, chris. >> all right, we'll be right back. eaky shopping cart] [sniffing] don't get mad. get e*trade and get more than just trading. investing. banking. guidance. start the year smiling at aspen dental get e*trade and get more than just trading. where new starts happen, every day. get exceptional care at every step,

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