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i'm don lemon. with chris cuomo. live for another special hour of the coverage. it's midnight in minneapolis. that's what justice was served after the murder of -- the world witnessed. with their very eyes: prosecutors asked the jury to believe their eyes and they did. one of the prosecutors sai and not in non-sense. chauvin, derek chauvin, the expolice officer convicted on all three counts for the murder of george floyd. >> we the jury in the above entitled matter as it o count one. unintentional second degree murder committing a felony. find the defendant guilty. third degree murder find the

defendant guilty. second degree manslaughter creating unreasonable risk find the defendant guilty. >> it was about ten hours it took to reach the verdict. it's not extraordinarily short. but it is short. but not extraordinarily. obviously jurors deliberated for shorter periods of time. it is extremely rare for a police officer to be accused of using excessive force and convicted like that on all three counts. you don't see a lot of policing convictions. now you have. now the question is, is it going to change policing in america? is it going to change any systemic racism or how police officers treat certain communities? >> it created a precedent for expectation of consequence. i don't think i have ever said before the court decided the police murdered the george

floyd. you have this. this was a murder. and now we have to see what does that become as a catalyst for more? so, let's discuss with the better minds. anthony and it's good to have you both. bark, when you look at this, they got him on second degree murder and obviously the two after that. was this any measure of surprise for you that this was declared a murder because we see it so rarely. even in shooting cases. let alone non-shooting. >> i am still -- i'm still so excited by the verdict. it's no surprise to me. what we saw was murder. we saw murder. we saw a cop in uniform murder mr. floyd. and i am just so happy that that

jury understood what they saw. >> counsellor when you think about what this means in terms of the over all process of change, do you see it as a one off? one case? or could it become something of a catalyst for change in congress? >> my hope is obviously it does become catalyst. i don't see it as one single incident. there's been far too many that have occurred across td country over a decade. this is another rung in the ladder of issues. that will take us to a better place of policing. i expected it to be a murder trial. once i saw the video. i'm relieved with the verdict. i have heard you say today sometimes you don't know. in these situations. i have seen stranger cases where the decision has been different. this was so clear cut. i'm glad to see if we can get

this one behind us and move on. we need to take the momentum and move fard for effective police. >> we saw south carolina. at a traffic stop, walter scott runs away at no particular speed. cop lies about it. a kid with a cell phone. still a mistrial. you never no. now that we do know, there's some relief within not just the black community. maybe within a larger share of the majority. how important is that in terms of taking the next step? >> it's very important. so we have seen what can be done. we have seen what citizens can do. when there's a rogue police officer out there. the thing is we have poured billions of dollars into

policing. we have heard again and again, police reform. we're fixing it. we need to step up accountability. we need to start holding the commanders the top the top of the police departments accountable for their officers. we have had enough of it. and it's time to get really serious about accountability. not just talking it. really put it into action. and that's what a politicians and the people that these cops are sworn to serve to get on it. >> not a smooth road. you have people tonight saying they're going to make police officers wanted men and women now. nobody will want to do the job. nobody will comply. everybody will be looking to create a controversy. cops don't want to do their job. people try to be taken them out. you demonize them all. what's your response to the reaction? >> i do hear that.

i think that it's somewhat understandable officers are feeling persecuted. i feel that we can get past this and we can. i get concerned about the individuals that get paid to that brush goes across all police. it's done very there's a will the of good police officers out there. the problem comes we get the who say it's a few bad apples. we forget the second part. they can ruin the whole barrel. get the bad apples out so the rest of the barrel can shine. we have a lot of good officers that we need to acknowledge that. and get rid of the bad ones and hold them accountable. >> you saw it in the trial. we saw the chief. you expect the chief to testify. i didn't. that's not a given. in trials when officers are on trial. you had the chief and multiple players of police involved in

this prosecution. i have not met a single police officer had a single conversation where anybody said chauvin did the right thing. >> it was -- yeah it's a beautiful thing to see. we need that repeated across the united states. we need tr sergeants and lieutenants. captains and majors. deputies and chiefs to be engaged and know what the officers are doing. get out the office get on the street and go to the hot calls. go to the calls where things could go bad and see how your officers perform. see what your training is. who's doing the training? it's so much more that can be done. but the keyword is accountability. and that's from the bottom to the top. we have to stress accountability for police. >> to the push back of you got it.

the system worked. you got it. a triple conviction. we have never seen it before. he didn't everyone use a weapon and you got a conviction. this is it. you should be happy. sit down. >> this case is such an aberration. such a blatant violation of anything related to law enforcement. or human compassion. and we can't say okay this now shows that the system is right. again, i'm not going to jump on the band wagon of bashes cops. they are great people. we need to own up the right now there are issues out there we need to deal with. we need to heal this division. between police and the community. they are supposed to protect and serve. we can't do that if we don't hold ourselves accountability. >> you can't keep the men and women who do the job. they have to pay the price for the perception of the force.

the points are out there. if we don't address them they become powerful. in that vacuum of getting push back. i love having you. in order to this is what they're saying and here's the response. thank you for doing it. both. i appreciate it. up next, remember why we got to a point of trial. okay? yes, you had the state step up. you had citizens step up. next, a key witness to the actual floyd murder. his reaction in the moment. now his reaction to the verdict. and why the defense attempt to go after floyd and him were things he was all too ready for. next.

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the george floyd killing now must be called the george floyd murder. that was the rendering of a

court today that set a new precedent. there's an overwhelming sense of relief for many in the country. especially those who witnessed the murder firsthand. i have reaction from the man who confronted the officers that fateful day. >> check his pulse! kyle. check his pulse. >> when you look at the crowd. that's donald williams. he's afraid. he's worried. white people there too. they were afraid. they were worried. it would be williams who calls the cops on the cops and testify for the prosecution in this trial. we spoke a short time ago. here he is. >> what does this mean to you? >> this means a lot to me. to me and my family. and to the george floyd family. and the world. this is a big accomplishment and

a big step to getting justice for black america. >> did you expect this? >> i can't say i expected it, i myself and the team i was around and witnesses, we all went out and told the truth. we told what we saw and the world seen what we seen. it was blinders still on. the blinders are off now. the verdict that was made today. >> what has this meant to you in your life that you were there they da and did the right thing? you knew it was wrong. and you felt powerless to stop it. do you feel more powerful now? >> i wouldn't say i feel powerful. i feel that me as a human being and the people that grew up around, my personality. what i stand for. sticking up for people and what

i'm teaching my kids is shown to the world as black man. it means a lot to me. a lot of weight is lifted off my shoulders. it's been some lone nights. lone days and lone year. of being able to just have weight off my shoulders and today it was a lot of weight off my shoulders. for me and my family and george floyd and the world. >> what do you want this to mean? >> i want this to mean in the i'll keep with the battle after this situation. i want my son and my friends kids and my kids my daughter's kids and my nieces and nephews. i want them to be understood as a black human being in america. to be able to have justice if their rights are broken. this means a lot. in history. i'm not understanding how much

history i am. listening to the people around me and the different feed back. this is really huge. again, it means a lot. >> when you were in court, you were ready. you were ready to be challenged. you were ready to be painted a certain way. what did it feel like to be in the seat and to feel the questions coming and how much the answers meant and what you wanted to convey? >> it meant a lot. it was a championship fight for me. that's what i kept telling myself. stay mentally focussed. this is a whole year. you have to be able to stay in the zone. don't lose yourself with all the riffraff going on. or the different rumors or trying to make me out as an expert or certain things. i was just telling the truth. >> the defense strategy, you

know the real deal with george floyd right? what he was really about? what he was doing? and then when you got on the stand, they wanted you to be seen a certain way. let me remind the audience. >> you were angry. >> no. you can't paint me as angry. i was in a position where i had to be controlled. >> those terms grew more and more angry. would you agree with that? >> it grew more and more pleading for life. >> angry black man. spooking the cops. they couldn't do their job. that was the portrayal. you didn't want to let it happen. >> no. not at all. i have been there. i have been there four or five years old. considered an angry black child. always got his work done before the class and was saying he's doing too much energy. and a wrestler in minnesota. passive aggressive.

i have been through all of this before. what he did for me, it was give me more fuel to be comfortable on the stands. i knew his tactic was to see me as a black man and i was angry and if he could distract me and off course. i stayed on track. and was not able to break me. we're unbreakable. we have been through this for 400 years. i'm a hybrid of my parents and ancestors before me. >> when i met you, when we first spoke last may, you said we have to make a change. we all better make a change. i don't know the last time we saw a verdict like this under these sirks. and this is a moment. under these circumstances. change is possible. you are forever part of the result. and that story. and i wish you well. i thank you for sharing your story with us from the

beginning. >> thank you for having me. thank you to the world and to the george floyd family. and for the justice that we got. thank you to my team and my family. for being able to rock with me and keep me focussed during this championship fight. >> god bless. good luck going forward. i'm a call away. >> thank you, sir. >> everything that happened here, was a necessary catalyst that but for we may not have wound up where we are. it's not easy to get in cops faces in a situation like that. and plead with them to do their job. saying stay away we got it. coming at them and saying it's wrong. >> i was going the old fashion way. god put that man there. right? it was kind of it was good he was there. it was good he was there and i know he wanted to do more. they all wanted to do more. what could they do?

>> nothing. that's a powerless situation. >> the idea that you are saying trying to make the cop violent. no. the defense attorneys tried to create it. as a dangerous situation. their argument was, these people made it hostile. the police had to defend themselves. they couldn't do their job. >> did you see the picture of them standing there. like this. >> you heard them. you were angry. it got worse. >> made him nervous. >> we know what they were trying to do. is that part of a defense? yes. it's part of reenforcing stereo types. now we have to talk and have to try sto spread a new truth through society to get away from the stigma. who's good at that? >> a genius. at everything. except for one thing. one thing.

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rely on the experts at 1800petmeds for the same medications as the vet, but for less with fast free shipping. visit petmeds.com today. president of the united states calling lt verdict a giant step towards justice in america. let's discuss now. host of united shades of america. thank you for joining us. chris and i were joking saying you were bad at one thing. i think that's driving. you don't have a driver's license. listen -- breaking news. let's talk about what you're good at. that's having conversations and analyzing what's going on. in the country. your feelings tonight? >> i mean i feel happy for the floyd family for george floyd's family. they seem to really have

experienced a measure of jus it is here which i'm grateful. and the yeyewitnesss and the people who testified. where he couldn't speak for himself. that feels great. i think that's in the grand scheme of things we live in the system of policing in the country that is broken. my mom says it's worked to design as it's designed to work. meaning that even at we do this, i was on twitter. 15 year-old girl apparently killed by police today. in california a man taken into custody and kild under mysterious circumstances. police are still see black and brown bodies at criminalized. until we hopefully we'll look at what happened to george floyd and the verdict in that case and go this is an opportunity to redo the whole system. that will take a lot of work and imagination. >> i have to tell you.

some of the cases at least one of the cases you mention. not sure what happened there. police releasing a body cam video. there's still -- i get your over all. >> that's the point. we don't always know what happened. not every case is the same. the fact is there is a will the of suspicious around the police. there's a will the of george floyds out there that aren't on video. >> we have seen people of color dying at the hands of police. over and over again. with no accountability. this was different today. as your mom said it's design pd the way it was designed. do you think this verdict sends a message throughout the country? is it going to resonate do you believe? >> you called me old before we came on camera. let's be clear. i'm old enough to remember the rodney king verdict. and oj simpson. and some things we thought things will change from this point -- >> george zimmerman.

we thought things would change. eric gardener. michael brown. things will change it's on video. tonight an officer in jail for the killing a black man. that doesn't happen often. again we need the system to change. it's not about individual acts. i'm grateful for the family. it's not about individual acts and i'm sure they believe the same thing. >> vice president of the united states. here it is. >> here's the truth about racial injustice, it is not just a black america problem. or a people of color problem. it is a problem for every american. it is keeping us from fulfilling the promise of liberty and justice for all. and it is holding our nation back from realizing our full potential. >> you know, we spoke a lot.

during this whole time. when the height of it last summer and as it continued when we were all in quarantine. and just going stir crazy inside. we couldn't help but watch the video of chauvin kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. it opened so many eyes to the depths of racial injustice. especially at the hands of some police officers. do you think it will last? >> no. in some sense i can't hope it lasts. i have to work to make sure it lasts. me and the people i know out here doing the work. you have to keep talking about it to make sure it lasts. it can go away. rodney king wasn't 100 years ago. we have to work to make it last. it can go away. the george floyd the fact he made a difference and the death made a difference. the weird toxic perfect storm of

us all being home. because the president mismanaged the pandemic and we were all watching tv at the same time. without that and the eyewitnesss and video tape. he would be another black dead man and they would take the cops word. >> i watch your show every sunday. what do you see -- you often inject humor in a way that is informative. that's how you do it. that's the approach. what's the next step? >> as i said it's coming back. we were working on a show about defund the police to talk about the next steps of policing in the country. that's our premier episode. about defund the police. schts that idea scares people and puts people including our current president. we have to start talking about the big ideas of policing and past the point of fear and point of talking about what the things mean. we have to imagine a dirnt different way. we have to lean into the difficult conversations and hold

ourselves accountability for results. >> it's interesting you mention the defund the police. the slogan people are critical of. not necessarily what it means. they're critical -- >> the slogan. but won't goggle it. google it and you will understand what it means and you'll be less afraid. i also was a person the first time i heard it got like ugh. i live in oakland the home of black panthers. once you understand it, it means the fact is currently in oakland we spend 50% of the fund on the police. and only 4% of the violent crime calls are police get 4% of the violent crime calls in oakland. money going to police that could go to other groups in the city to support the city. >> thank you. you love it when i call you w.

that's a no. thank you so much. make sure you check out the season premier of united shades of america. sunday night may 2, 10:00 p.m. eastern. here on cnn. it's good to see you. thank you so much. >> this trial is over. the case is far from over. don't you think? we have a lot of work to do. defund the police, reimagine the police. reform the police. there's work to be done on a lot of fronts here. things need to be -- >> a quote flying around social media. justice will be served when those who are unaffected are as out raged as those who are affected. ast attributed to ben franklin. a good thought. and it's the key to real change. >> host over on one of my

friends. on the turner classic movie said we need to be able to have -- especially when white people can have pleasure interrupted. then we will be on the right path. have their pleasure interrupted. get used to that. >> so, let's take a look at what the path is. former federal prosecutor will look at what's next for chauvin. sentencing. it will be interesting. and this decision has effected a lot of people. including three police officers. next. of therabreath healthy smilile oral rinse to g give her the healthy, sparkly smile she always wanted. (crowd cheering) therabreath, it's a better mouthwash. at walmart, target and other fine stores. ♪ ♪ this is my body of proof. proof of less joint pain and clearer skin. proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis...

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some context for you. in 2019 a man named muhammad noir. the first police officer in minnesota to be convicted of murder. for on duty incident. now, that was a shooting. today, derek chauvin became the second. this was not a shooting. his conviction remains the exception. not the rule. the numbers here tell the story. in fact the fact they don't even really keep numbers tells the story. former federal prosecutor. you have your conviction. you have your sentencing. will this be a sentence that

benefits from aggravated circumstances? >> in all likelihood. the judge hasn't tipped his hand as to his thinking. there are a number of aggravating factors and set aside the fact it's a police officer. he's now a convicted defendant who number one, engaged in a violent act on a public street in plain view of children. over a long period of time. with a group of individuals. each thing i lay out are aggravating factors and all things the judge can use to bump the sentence up. >> does being a police officer help or hurt chauvin? >> i think it hurts here. he's betraying the badge. for the very reasons some of the reasons that he was convicted for. the kinds of things that a sentence in court can use to bump the sentence up. he betrayed public trust and the uniform he was wearing. the judge would be within his right as the sentencing

authority to go for a higher sentence. >> there was a lot of chatter about what this means for the other three officers. they'll want to take a deal now. after this. what happens? when the attorneys pick up the phone to call the prosecutor and want to talk about a deal. what happens after this? >> i think they have a huge incentive to want a deal. the prosecution doesn't. it's about how much the prosecution has a desire to compromise. if i'm the defendant i think a few things. one thing we'll see soon is a motion to move the venue of the trial out of the county. they'll make an argument that look, look at all the publicity. the excitement about this. look at congresswoman waters. there's no way the clients can get a fair trial. that probably will fail. and the question will be how much appetite the prosecution has to negotiate on a plea. the prosecution is in a really

kind of in the position. this conviction in nine hours. on all three counts. it seems there wasn't much debate between the jurors. that will carry on down to the other three officers. i think the three of them and lawyers are sweating. >> chance of appeal? you mention mrs. waters. appeal based on political intervention. tampering with the jury. >> i think not a chance. there will be appeal. on the third degree murder charge because there's an open question in minnesota law as to whether and how and an officer can even be convicted of third degree murder. this is the central issue being appealed in the case you talked about in the tease. then there's the question of pretrial publicity. and the question of should the jurors have been sequestered the whole time.

all the things the judge batted down. are basis for a smart defense attorney to challenge. there is this open question on that third degree murder charge. it's a tricky area in minnesota law. it's not resolved yet. as much as people want it to be. it's up in the air. >> does it matter? especially on the state law level. even if it were to be vacated against chauvin, the sentence generally even at homicide level run concurrently. so, they have them on the big ticket. >> forget the sentence. threw out the charge and said it's a mistrial or not guilty on third degree murder. there's second degree murder and manslaughter. and the 40 year max. on second degree murder. right there -- it's not going to be 40. the sentence right now in the range is 12 and a half. i think what they're talking

about. could be higher. you could do without the third degree murder charge and send him away for a long time. >> i was talking today about how rare a decision like this is against a police officer. and the reason it's hard to tell you how rare, because we don't really keep uniform statistics on this. 25 years ago the fbi had to start compiling data. there is no mandate for police departments to comply or do it in any uniform fashion. >> efb set aside the data. the public doesn't have a huge incentive to convict police officers. number one, laws are drafted in ma manner that protect police use of force. there's so degree they are allowed to use. we should all agree with that. laws are there to protect them and they often get 'way with using force generally.

number one and two as a bigger more social level, people are trained and grow up trusting police officers. you talked about this earlier. it's baked into society. we trust officers. even before you get to the question of whether and how data are kept, the simple fact is it's just hard to convict cops. and we shouldn't draw from this very quick unanimous decision that somehow race and policing are fixed in america. this just happened to be one trial with an overwhelming amount of evidence. that ended in a conviction quickly. there will be others. and sadly they won't come out the same way. >> remember this started is not how it ended. it started being explained as a health incident. it was removed by the governor and given to the ag. and a special prosecutor. that you got into trial in the first place. you have been a gift to the audience and the analysis of

this case. i appreciate it. >> thanks. >> we'll be right back.

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>> what does it mean when people in the -- people of color, but also white people rejoice that there has been a conviction that someone is responsible for murder in the death of george floyd? what a bizarre thing to rejoice in. what does it say about where we are and what our expectations are? because think about it. it's not a happy occasion, right? george floyd is gone. he'll never be back. his family is broken. they've had to create an entire new reality of a coping structure because they're in the public eye. and yet there is relief, we'll use the word. there was celebrating. what does that say about what this means? >> i don't -- i don't think it was so much as celebrating if you look at it in a christian or a spiritual way, celebrating the downfall of anyone.

i think it was celebrating a victory that had been for so long unattainable for people of color in this society. so i think every little bit -- that was scene as a victory, and not necessarily celebrating the demise of someone. there is a difference. there is nuance. so i think that for so long, quite frankly, derek chauvin represented i think the wrongs and the ills of policing in this country. what black people had been hoping for for so long, and that's just justice and accountability. and i think that's -- that's what that was. it wasn't a celebration like yeah, yeah, we got him. that's not really what that was about. it was a celebration of finally, just has been served. finally, the legal system got it right. that's what that was.

do you understand what i'm saying? >> i do. but i think it's important to have it explained. not that there was anything off-putting. >> that's just mine. >> there is a sadness to it. >> there is. >> that the expectation is this is very unlikely to go punished. and just as george floyd was being unfairly characterized to help change the perspective of what happened, i hope that people realize that derek chauvin is not the archetype of a police officer either, that this is not what police do. police were absolutely disgusted by what chauvin did, and that's important too, because you said there is nuance. there is some nuance. because when you're saying good, you know, this happened. this is not good for anybody except for the expectation that things might get better as a result. >> so here is the thing.

that's a tough one, especially for many people who look like me when you say that's not what police do. now we know that there are good people in policing. that should go unsaid. but the police officers who were there were representative of the police officers. we have three more officers who were there who didn't stop it. and so you can say as a whole the police officer looking in, and they may say to you and to me and to other people this is not what policing is about. but the evidence that is -- that refutes what they're saying are those officers were on the scene and didn't say anything. the officer in virginia whose partner didn't say anything when he was treating the member of the military, the army lieutenant like shit. when you see other officers on other scenes who don't speak up when police officers are doing

bad things. we don't see that a lot. so yes, there are good people in policing. but the cowardice and the blue wall of silence makes them complicit with bad officers, and they need to own up to that. and so you don't want to paint policing or all police officers with a broad brush, but their behavior has to live up to the standard that they want people to have in their hearts and in their heads about them. and quite often it does not. >> you have to empower the shift that you want with officers. there is a penalty if you go bad on a fellow officer, even if it means you're doing the right thing there was a case that only recently i think after 15 years resolved where a female officer st stopped -- >> cariol horne. we had her on the show. >> from a chokehold. >> 15 years and she lost her

pension. >> there has to be a duty to inte intervene. so there is a penalty. you go bad on me, we're supposed to be partners. there is a problem with you, within the culture you. have to shift that and no, no, if you don't see anything, you've got a big problem. >> but that's my point. and so she lost her job, lost her pension. >> yes. >> but the bad officer kept his job and kept his pension and also kept his respect. >> yes. >> so again, i think you're proving my point. yes, there are good people in policing. but when you do things like that, does that really live up to the standard of what you're preaching and what you want people to think about when you're not holding your own fellow officers who are making you look bad -- >> but you have to empower them to do it. >> who has to empower them? you mean the police? >> yeah. i think the rules. here is our expectation. if i catch you doing this, you're going to have a problem. >> but is it the rules in policing? is it the union? because those are two different

things. >> whatever it is. whatever control mechanisms there are, you have to look at it, you have to think about it, you have to talk to officers. because at the end of the day, you want the job to be safe for them and for them to do a job in a way that makes it safe for others. >> safer. policing is not a safe job. >> it will never be a safe job. >> safer. >> yes, agreed. thank you for sharing the night with me. you make things understandable. we got a long way to go, but we both know we only get there together. >> yeah. >> so thanks to all of you. thank you for watching me and don and all of cnn's coverage. it will continue here on cnn. (m) phone it in? way ahead of you. daddy's saving money. (burke) go ahead, phone it in. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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get started today. hello, i'm victor blackwell, and this is "cnn newsroom." we're following reaction to the guilty verdict on all three counts against former minneapolis police officer derek