the case for cameras. many legaciies can be called th murder of george floyd have already received ample coverage. a national turning point against police brutality. officers finally willing to cross the blue line to speak out against one of their own. pivotal role a 17-year-old bystander darnella frazier whose video footage memorialized the incident. the 14-day trial will be remembered for that and more but one thing should not go unnoticed. trite for derek chauvin was a vindication of cameras in american courtrooms. not since the o.j. simpson in 1995 have people gather much much to tune in and watch the trial. in 1995, many of us were similarly obsessed with simpson.

unlike chauvin, simpson became a spectacle. big on personalities but little in common with how trials are conducted all across the country every day. back then, the judge lance ito and the lawyers became as much the focus as the underlying facts. johnny crock ran and others compromised the simpson dream team. we even met our first kardashian. a lawyer and friend of o.j. the shoes and isotoner gloves and who can forget furman, lang? marcia clark got a new hair style, it was big news! the empitome of simpson, the house get kcado.

while covering the case and writing letters from los angeles for his vanity fair column. and then when each trial day ended, many of us tuned into "larry king live" for the recap. he always had the central players as guests. but as for the administration of justice? it was a fiasco. in the end, o.j. walked even though we all knew he did it! and cameras were often blamed as the culprit. i never bought into that. the cameras weren't to blame. and the proof is in minnesota. the chauvin trial was the first in state history to be broadcast live and in full and credit goes to judge peter cahill for allowing this. the trial was telecast with dignity. jurors were not shown. nor minors or george floyd's family members without consent. credit also goes to that big prosecution team.

the defense lawyer eric nelson and the many witnesses not a cato kaelin among them. the derek chauvin trial was all business and better representative as well as a validation of america's court system. and now we need to mimic the example. think about it. you've got a right to walk into your local county or federal courthouse, including the supreme court of the united states. and your presence should be represented by a camera. transparency matters. cameras are the ultimate disinfectant. i'm reminded of the fact that senator arlen specter a friend and mentored of mine and pennsylvania's longest u.s. senator was a long time advocate of cameras in the supreme court. when senator specter was on the judiciary committee including when he was its chair, he made it a point to question nominee for the supreme court how they felt about allowing cameras in the courtroom. he usually got them on record saying it was a noble idea and something that ought to be

pursued. >> john paul steven said television in the court is worth a try. justice ruth bader ginsburg said, i don't see any problem with having proceedings televised. i think it would be good for the public. justice breyer said i voted in the initial conference in favor of experimenting with television in the courtroom. justice alito said that in the third circuit, there was a debate and he argued that we should do it. that is televising and said, i would keep an open mind. all of the subject with respect to the supreme court. >> but, of course, the moment they were confirmed and got on the supreme court of the united states and wearing the black robe, they had a change of perspective, because they didn't want the public looking over their shoulder. as we reflect on the derek chauvin trial, let us remember the value of cameras.

the camera of darnella frazier that captured the murder and the cameras in the courtroom that showed all of us what justice looks like. joining me now, to discuss is emmy parsons an associate of balance lard bar that seeking access to the chauvin trial and co-authored this piece. emmy, why was this case able to be televised? >> hi, michael. thank you for having me. i appreciated your introduction. it's exactly right. this case was remarkable in the use of cameras in the courtroom. now, ordinarily, under minnesota court rules, all parties to a criminal prosecution must consent to the use of cameras during a court proceeding before a defendant has been found guilty or pled guilty. in this case, derek chauvin, the defendant, consented to the

cameras but minnesota prosecuting the case did not consent so that normally would have been the last word on this case. but as you pointed out, due to judge cahill's bravery really in this case, he said, this case is unique. it is one of the most high profile cases in the history of this country and it is being held at a time where a pandemic is raging and social distancing requirements are in place that make it so that the public will not have access to this trial absent the use of cameras in the courtroom. that rite comes from the first and sixth amendments to the constitution. both of those constitutional rights speak to this idea that the press and the public need to be in the courtroom, need to have access so that they can see that justice is carried out and that defendants are dealt with fairly. and so in this case, judge cahill said we can't abide by the requirements of the first and the sixth amendment without

having cameras, so he issued in an order in november 2020 saying state, i see you, i hear you, i see the court rules ordinarily do not allow this but this is required in this case and we are thrilled with how this played out. >> what do you think moving forward? what do you think the prospect is now that people will buy into the assessment i've just offered and clearly you've just offered and say this is a good thing. might this be a turning point elsewhere? >> that is certainly what we hope. we hope that what people saw tuning into this trial is that contrary to the fears that courts have historically had, that as you talked about folks would grantstand, that it would impact the behavior of trial participants or that witnesses would be intimidated and unwilling to testify. not only did the cameras in this case not lead to those feared outcomes, but the cameras in this case really allowed the public, not only in minnesota and in minneapolis, the few who

34 may have been able to attend in person about you looked the entire country and the world to see that justice was carried out. you know, as far as the justice system can allow. and so our hope is that really people watch this, see that there is a lot of benefit to cameras being allowed in the courtroom and that courts are more willing to allow cameras in their courtroom. even in minnesota, it's not a given that after this trial, cameras will be allowed in future prosecutions. the rule is still on the books that all parties and criminal prosecutions need to consent. so we, obviously, hope that that changes going forward. >> emmy, nice job. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. what are your thoughts? tweet me or go to my facebook page and i'll read some responses throughout the program. this is from facebook. no, nancy. what could have been more famous than in passing george floyd? i don't believe that was the

case. and even if i accept your premise that this was different because now we had video, well, we hope there will be video of these sort of crimes going forward. but i don't want a standard that says if there is video we will put put it on tv the supreme court i don't think they ever said a first amendment right for a camera to be present. the court has said you and i have a right to walk in and attend a criminal trial. why does it not naturally follow that, obviously, we can't be in courtrooms all across the country? but a camera can be. you know who ought to set the precedent? the supreme court of the united states. because senator specter was right. up ahead, in the wake of the derek chauvin conviction, police conduct is under intense scrutiny with retirement surging and a shortage of recruits. will the situation only get harder to fix? i have two of america's most experienced and respected police

chiefs coming up. as well as last week, america, again, obsessed with mass shootings and then as usual, we moved on! why does nothing ever change? well, part of the answer lies in the 2008 supreme court decision known as he willer and the criminal justice political lengs leanings. i'll plain. should washington, d.c. the 51st state of the united states? its possible lean so heavily democratic. i'll talk to the congressman who said objections to d.c. statehood are racist. i want to know what you think. answer this week's survey question. should the u.s. establish a 51st state called washington, douglass commonwealth? is what business is all about it's what the united states postal service has always been about so as your business changes, we're changing with it

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misconduct all across the country. where do we go from here? on tuesday former police officer derek chauvin found guilty of all three charges against him in the killing of george floyd and he will be formally sentenced on june 16th and faces potentially decades in prison. less than an hour before the verdict was announced, an officer in columbus, ohio, shot and killed ma'khia bryant. then andrew brown jr. was shot di deputies who were attempting to serve search warrants. joining me now, are two of america's most respected law enforcement experts. former two-to determine new york

city police commissioner ray kelly. former philadelphia police commissioner and former d.c. police chief charles ramsey. chief ramsey, let me start with you. unions are an issue. in fact, in 2017, "the washington post" took a look at how often in big city departments those who had been fired for misconduct had to be reinstated because of the strength of police unions. we will put that chart up on the screen as i ask you -- does any of that change in the aftermath of chauvin? >> i don't know if it changes any aftermath of chauvin. it should change, no question about that. but if the process and system doesn't change, then the answer to that is going to be no. it is not easy to get rid of a bad police officer. we fire them. they go through an arbitration process which is behind closed doors. you were talking about shedding a little light on trials through

cameras. arbitration process is very quiet and arbitrators make you shake your head in disbelief. the bottom line the officer gets back but not only do they get back, oftentimes they get back with backpay and lost overtime is credited. so it's kre,very, very difficult it needs to change. >> chief kelly, how do we fix that? >> well, with some difficulty. no question about it that i think chiefs or ceos or commissioners need more power to get rid of problematic police officers. you can see a pattern where someone may have 30, 40 complaints against them where the average is two or three in a career. those types of people have to be identified and there has to be some sort of mechanism to have them speexpelled from the polic

department and most of the government to do that lies in state legislatures and where it has to take place. i don't think it's going to be happen any time soon because police unions are powerful, no question about it. they make donations to campaigns and they are pretty savvy how to work both in state houses and in washington. but it is something that needs to change. >> chief ramsey, that is the ends of the road. that is the firing process. let me now go to the hiring process. in today's philadelphia enquirer, there is a quote that jumped out at me from the head of the new jersey police association, the largest state union in new jersey. it's on the screen right now. . i can't tell you, chief ramsey, how many callers to my radio program this week said, i'd never it that job, meaning in law enforcement. >> it's a difficult time. there is no question about it.

but it's also an opportunity, that same article, i believe philadelphia is down 268 officers. but we have to get smarter about how we recruit and market and target populations of individuals who we think would make good police officers and these are people who probably never thought about law enforcement as a career. i happen to be one of them. i wanted to become a doctor when i was a young person and accidentally became a police officer. but we need people with a service mentality. i really see this as an opportunity. this is a time, a unique time when change is really going to occur. you could be a part of that if you join us. you could be a part of something very special. instead of standing on the sidelines complaining about police, become a police officer and make a difference in your community. and that is the way we ought to approach it. not a whoa is me type of situation, but an opportunity to improve the profession. >> chief kelly, trying to run

allow the big-picture issues and relying on comments i've heard all week long. here is another for you. do you have a concern that police officers will now be too hesitant, including too hesitant, to use force, deadly force, if necessary, because of all the attention on so many of these different cases? >> sure. police officers are hesitant across the board. they are demoralized, they are confused. they don't know what the public wants them to do. they have been demonized in the press, demonized on social media, so they backed off. they are not engaging in the way they used to pre, the death of george floyd. we see the result of this. we see a rise in homicide last year. 30% nationally. so, yeah, they are backing off in all sorts of ways because they are concerned about their well-being and their family's well-being and i think that what has brought about the rise in shootings and murders.

this continues this year as well. i'm not as optimistic as chuck is on recruitment. i think it's a real crisis. we have to really do some hard work and thinking about how we can attract qualified police officers. i'm concerned that we may lower the standard just to get sufficient number of bodies. so this is a real crisis for law enforcement with no easy answer. >> chief kelly, a follow-up for you because there is a broken windows question here and new york city has a record in that regard. i was reading heather mcdonald opinion piece in "the wall street journal" that put this in my head today. should traffic stops be reconsidered as an example? or do you think, hey, sometimes that which we overturn because of, say, a missing inspection or a registration, a tag issue, leads us to other things? can you see now a debate taking place where some say don't pull

cars over? >> i'm told that in the uk, very few car stops. they do it all through technology. so let's see if technology can do a lot of this. but i think you have to be concerned that if there are no car stops, no law enforcement involvement, people simply won't get licenses. they will just go and violate the traffic laws in many ways and not register their vehicles. you have to think this through. it is no question a dangerous thing for police officers to make stops. we have seen that in the recent past with the killing of state trooper in new mexico and other locations. cops don't necessarily want to do it. they have been required to do it. so let's see if there is an alter alternative. right now, i don't think we are there. >> chief ramsey, same question to you but with an additional component. in the george floyd case, of

course, allegedly it all began with a counterfeit bill. now some folks are saying, you know what? maybe police shouldn't be the ones to respond in a retail circumstance. should we narrow the field of when the police get called? >> there are some instances where police don't need to necessarily be the first responder. but there are many instances where it's appropriate for police to respond. i think the problem here is that we have lost a balance because of these high profile cases, george floyd type cases with chauvin and so forth. there is no real balance. when we look at policing now, it seems like we are -- people are painting all police with a very broad brush. they are looking at the very worst in the profession such as a derek chauvin and kind of painting everybody with that same brush. we have allowed the few to define the many. somehow, we have got to be able to turn that around.

there are ways in which issues can be addressed, short of police officers showing up on the scene. but you mentioned the bryant case for an example. that was one where it was already out of control. it was very violent behavior. do you really think a social worker or mental health professional would have been able to deal with that situation under those circumstances? i don't think so. it's not that easy. we need to think about what we want our police to do and i think it's legitimate to have that conversation but then the issue has to be transferred somewhere else and funding has to be in place in order to make it real. >> commissioner kelly, give me the final word. take my last 30 seconds and tell me big picture what is it that you most want people to know? >> well, i want people to know that policing is a noble calling and noble profession. police officers save lives every day. we saw a classic example in that columbus, ohio, shooting. just imagine if we didn't have

body cameras, though, to record what happened there. it would be a major, major event. as it is now. each people are complaining what that police officer did. he is a hero. policing is a calling. they do great work. i'm just concerned now about recruiting and whether or not we will be getting the right people into the business. >> commissioner kelly, thank you. chief ramsey, i thought you really distinguished yourself all 14 days of that trial. it was no b.s. >> thank you. >> straight down the middle and you offered your opinion as you saw it and i really appreciated what you had to say on cnn. >> thank you. thank you. >> nice to see you both. see you, commissioner kelly. what are you saying on my facebook and twitter pages? here is one. lisa, you just did. chauvin shoot rot but generally law enforcement does its job and

it's terribly understaffed. we are headed for big problems if we lose the good ones. lisa, exactly the point i was making by drawing reference to the read today where the head of the new jersey police association said, hey, you know, people aren't going to want to take this job. obviously, we got to weed out the worst of them. my former colleague here tom fuentes who rose 30 years to the ranks of assistant fbi director is the one who made the point to me that, unfortunately, some bad seeds among us are drawn to the prospect of having a gun and a badge and the lights and sirens and so forth. got to weed them out of the process. but, obviously, support the good overwhelming majority who are willing to risk their lives for us. up ahead, democrats want to make room on the american flag for one more star, as they push for washington, d.c. statehood during thursday's vote on the house floor, the debate sparked radiation tension. i'll speak to the house democrat

who confronted his republican colleagues. please make sure you're voting to answer this week's question at smerconish.com. here is the question. >> one senate republican said that d.c. wouldn't be a, quote, well-rounded working class state. i had no idea there were so many syllables in the word "white." prevents crab grass and feeds your lawn. all three,in just one bag. i like that. scotts turf builder triple action. it's lawn season. let's get to the yard.

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drama unfolded on the house floor on thursday over the push for d.c. statehood. house democrats voted to make portions of washington, d.c. the 51st u.s. state. it would give the districts 700,000 residents something they never had and a voting congress and representation in the u.s. senate. republican opposition ensures the proposal probably dead on arrival in the senate? perhaps because two senators

elected from d.c. would almost surely be democrats. the house vote deinvolved into heated arguments after democratic congress mon daire jones took aim in particular at two remarks one from republican senator tom cotton who said granting statehood would prevent d.c. from being, qoed, a well-rounded working class state and jody heist argued saying the district doesn't have, quote, landfills. >> mr. speaker, i have had enough of my colleague's insinuations that somehow the people of washington, d.c. are in incapable or even unworthy of our democracy. one senate republican said that d.c. wouldn't be a, quote, well-rounded working class state. i had no idea there were so many syllables in the word "white." one of my colleagues said d.c.

shouldn't a state because the district doesn't have a landfill. my goodness, with all of the racist trash my colleagues have brought to this debate i can see why they are worried about having a place to put it. the truth is there is no good faith argument for disenfranchising over 700,000 people, mr. speaker, most of whom are people of color. >> order in the court! mr. speaker, i move the words be taken down! >> gop house members, as you can, erupted in opposition, asked for congressman jones to agree to have his remarks stricken from the congressional record. he consented but said that the gop's objections are all about fear. congressman mondaire jones joins me now. thank you for being here. is it ratist for america to oppose d.c. statehood? >> in the case of the debate it is. when you listen to the explanation set forth by my

republican colleagues you can see quite clearly they are not offered in good faith. and the fact is, and something i'm hoping people become aware of, if you oppose systems of white supremacy, eacven if you not consider yourself to be racist you are engaging in racist activity. there are 700,000 people in the district of columbia, more than in the state of wyoming and vermont. so the idea that we would disenfranchise those people, that we would tax them without representation, something we fought in the revolutionary war, by the way, is unconscionable. when you compare the states we have enfranchised with the district of columbia and over people of color is quite a sinister think. >> i think i heard you say to oppose is today is necessarily racist and you probably know where i'm going with this. when the first vote was taken on

d.c. statehood in 1993, a majority of democrats joined republicans in opposing it. were they racist? >> right is right and wrong is wrong. i mnds i mentioned earlier people can come to light and people come to today saying that was the wrong thing to do. to uphold a system that d disenfranchises 700,000 people is rectifying on its face. in 43 different states attempt to suppress the right to vote of black and brown people including a law in georgia that became law. >> if you see attains staytehoo as your abdicating most puerto

rico follow? >> puerto rico is a separate question and something many of the members of congress of puerto rican descent of -- i think if the people of puerto rico want statehood then they should become a state. >> what of the solution that some have proposed recognizing that congresswoman norton doesn't get a vote and there is no senate representation as you've reminded us, why not take a portion of what currently compromises the district, give a portion of it toed to maryland d a portion. it to virginia allowing for a more narrow district to remain as pretty bad by the constitution so that the folks who live in the district today do have senate representation and a voting member of congress? >> do you mean why apply a double standard to the 700,000 plus people in washington, d.c.,

most of whom are people of color? that is the question, frankly. in wyoming and in vermont, for example, as i mentioned earlier, there is actually a smaller population than what is in washington, d.c. and, yet, those states have two senators, as well as congressional representation. let's stop making exceptions for people of color in way that has adverse implications for them. let's enfranchise by making -- >> yes, but -- but, the exception wouldn't be made in the case of wyoming. article 1, section 8 of the constitution didn't say anything about wyoming. it said we are going to create a district of the administration of government. you get the final word. >> yeah. respectfully, i think your response is not something that addresses the issue of those two states having more representation, which is to say really any representation because norton can't vote on legislation, unfortunately.

and the difference between those two states, aside from the fact that they have less fewer people than in washington, d.c. is that they are overwhelmingly white states. this is an issue of racial justice and in addition to being an issue of democracy. we must stop disenfranchising people of color in this country. it's time to stop doing that. >> congressman, thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. let's check in our tweets and facebook comments. this is the survey question for the reason. it might be that in the minds of some, eric. do a little bit of reading. a great cnn piece that has been written by one of my colleagues. damn it, ill thought i had it in front of me but i don't. explaining the historical perspective and in the mast republicans wanted a particular state or territory and democrats wanted it for political reasons

but you still have the issue as the congressman points out of 700,000 people who are lacking representation, especially in the u.s. senate. what i was trying to say at the end, in part, it's for a constitutional reason, right? it was determined by the framers that there would be this district established. and if the logic is one of, hey, we got 700,000 people here, that is large body of people, you know, you could have southern california break off and say, we want to now create our own state. i'm only suggesting it's a very complicated question. please make sure you're voting at smerconish.com right now on today's survey question. that is the proposed name. still to come, why can't legislators do anything monumental about america's rampant gun violence? in part because of 2008 decision by the supreme court regarding words of the second amendment

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what a difference a week makes. last saturday, we were reeling in the aftermath of another mass shooting. the one in indianapolis that cost eight people their lives at a fedex plant. i said last saturday that i was resigned to the fact that this is who and where we are. and, indeed, the indianapolis tragedy was quickly knocked out of the headlines by the derek chauvin trial and other news. meanwhile, there have been other shootings, bringing the total mass shooting in america just this year to over 150 according to the gun violence archive. well, i want to revisit the question of whether fundamental change with regard to guns is possible in this country and joining me now, is johnny, the cnn supreme court analyst, and author of several books on justices roberts, scalia, sandra day o'corner and sonia sotomayor.

she wrote about ""heller." what does it stand for? >> for the first time supreme court declared the second amendment declares an individual right to own guns, not that it was a right of the militia, like state and national guards. until that moment, lower courts had always presumed there was no individual right to firearms. justice scalia wrote in the 2008 case, decided by just a narrow 5-4 vote, that the framers of the second amendment believed that citizens, individual citizens possess that right. now one thing i have to caution you on, though, michael, because i heard your intro about how states can't regulate weapons these days because of that. scalia actually wrote that this right is not unlimited, that, you know, state governments,

congress can still regulate firearms. it's just a question of is there a true will out there. michael, to regulate firearms this way. >> i think i said -- i hope i said in a monumental way. i'm not talking about, you know, registration. >> yes. >> i'm not talking about background. >> yes. >> i mean in a big way. i want to ma ik ake a point. in 2004 a best selling book was written and here it is on the screen. it droves home the point how grammar, punctuation makes a difference. now put on the screen the words of the second amendment. here they are. this is what we are talking about. a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. is the second half of that sentence, just leave it up for a

moment, katherine. is the second half of that sentence dependent upon the first? what can you tell us, joan? >> i can tell you i love that you put that up because, you know, isn't that a confusing set of, what? 27 words and what justice scalia did was invert things to say, the reference to the well regu regulated militia at the beginning of that second amendment is not the modifier of the second and also, i should say it wasn't just -- >> oh, no. i think joan froze for a moment. hopefully, we get her back. she is not back. okay. okay. here is the point that i would make. while you're leaving that on the screen. i would argue -- oh, she is back. okay. i'd much rather hear from joan. we lost you for a moment. >> it wasn't just the words and

the comments there, michael. it was what he said the framers wanted. but actually i have to make one other important point to you about you were exactly right that there cannot be monumental change right now because of that second amendment intermission but you should know that there are present of people in america are positioned in supreme court to go further. there are appeals up at the supreme court that say we want you to rule not only that folks have an individual right to bear arms for safety in the home as the hellor case said but out in public. there are petitions up there and a majority on supreme court that is interested in actually expanding that right. so i know that you're very concerned, rightly so, about what the court did in 2008 but we are at a moment they might go further despite of what happened in indianapolis last week, and what keeps happening in america. >> can we also remind folks that

justin stevens said he thought it was the worst decision of his career, if i'm not mistaken? >> that's right. one other thing you should know about justice stevens who passed away in 2019, he said that he was reading those words that were up on the screen, michael, and he was also applying an originalist view of what the framers wanted in the second amendment and he came out the opposite way of antonin scalia. it just goes to show that it's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? >> eats shoots and leaves. johnny, thank you. that was excellent. i appreciate you being here. >> thank you, michael. still to come, your best and worst tweets and facebook comments and we will give you the final result of the survey question. vote at smerconish.com. here his the question.

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catherine. the tweeter about a power grab is correct. mitch mcconnell would do it if it were leaning republican. i'm sure that there are many acting. i'm so glad that you put that up on the screen. i'm sure that there are many acting for partisan reason. republicans, for example, who say, hey, we don't want there to be a guarantee of two more democratic members of the senate, or democrats who believe they would absolutely lock up two more senate seats. but i don't think that it's inherently racist. partisanship and racism sometimes overlap, but are not one and the same. the district exists today because the framers in the constitution called for it. that's why we're having this conversation. anyway, thank you for watching. i thought that the guests were excellent today. i'll see you next week. a cfp® pl can help you build a complete financial plan. visit letsmakeaplan.org to find your cfp® professional. ♪

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good morning. it is saturday, april 24th. we're grad to see you. i'm christi paul. >> and i'm boris sanchez. you are live in the "cnn newsroom." always great to see you, even from afar, christi. >> i know. one of these days, boris. >> one of these days. well, johnson & johnson's coronavirus vaccine is rejoining the race to vaccinate the united states. the single-dose vaccine will now come with a safety warning, though, noting there is a rare, rare risk of developing blood clots. >> now, after a ten-day pause, cdc advisers decided the benefits outweigh the danger for people 18 and older. one vaccine expert praised the decision as, quote, the cdc at its best, and a lesson in understandin