>> you look at steve allen's whole career. it was a certain subversive sensibility. it was the idea of doing things that in some sense didn't really belong on television. >> there's one more technique -- >> there's the sneaky johnny wilson technique. >> oh, i see. >> and you go -- >> all right. be sure to tubene in sunday at 9:00. thanks for joining us. it's time for anderson. and good evening. we're going to start tonight with a story that we wish we were not doing and with pictures and video we wish we had not seen. there is a lot else in the program. there are new developments in the case against rudy giuliani in the wake of yesterday's search targeting him, including what he had to say about it all just this evening. we'll also talk with cindy mccain about what's become of her republican party and what she thinks about possibly serving in the democratic president's administration. we begin, though, seemingly a world away from those things

except what is happening right now across india isn't far removed. covid has shown that every move the virus makes is potentially a local story too to everyone anywhere in the world. but interest in this latest horrific uncontained outbreak goes beyond the biological fact that pathogens travel or the demographic fact that this country has a large indian american community with strong ties back home. there's the larger truth that empathy also travels. compassion flows forward, outward, along with the tools and initiative to harness it. right now with india reporting a record 3,645 new deaths and 380,000 new cases we begin with a deeply troubling but badly needed report from clarissa ward who joins us now from new delhi. clarissa, what have you been seeing? >> reporter: anderson, this is truly a terrifying and epic crisis. i mean it's just staggering the amount of suffering. people are struggling to

breathe. they're literally dying on the streets, and there's just no end in sight to this tragedy. in delhi now, you're never far from heartbreak. almost everyone in the city has been visited by grief. at the crematorium, the loss weighs heavily in the smoldering air. and the dead are piling up. there are bodies literally everywhere you turn here. i've honestly never seen anything quite like it. and the organizers say that pre-covid they might cremate seven or eight people a day. today alone, they have already cremated 55 bodies and it's not even lunchtime. just months ago india's leadership boasted that the country had effectively defeated covid. now it has set global records

for new cases as a terrifying second wave ravages the country. this man says he and his men don't even stop to take breaks, and still they can barely cope with the flow. a volunteer approaches. they have run out of tables for the bodies, he says. then adds that his mother died from covid the night before. >> you must be tired. >> very. but there is no time for rest. >> do you believe the government figures, the death tolls, the covid figures that they're giving, or do you think the real figures are much higher? >> reporter: the numbers that you're seeing on television are the numbers of people who are dying in hospitals, he says. they're not factoring in the people who died at home in isolation. if those numbers are added, the actual number will go up by three times.

to keep up with those mounting numbers, the crematorium has been forced to expand, creating an overflow area in a neighboring car park. shem sharma is saying good by to his 45-year-old younger brother. >> last night i was thinking that his health is improving. but suddenly the doctor came on my mobile phone that your brother has expired. >> do you think his death could have been prevented? >> yes, yes. i think we can save him in the hospital. >> reporter: india's health care system is at a breaking point. unable to cope with the scale of the crisis, its people left to fend for themselves. this crowd has been waiting for six hours for the chance to get some oxygen.

they can't rely on the state. >> my mother. >> your mother? how old is she? >> 47. >> is her oxygen very low? >> she's in very critical condition. >> how many places have you been to? >> 19. >> 19? >> since morning, 6:00 a.m. >> have you tried taking her to the hospital? >> there are no beds. >> there are no beds? >> they don't have any beds. >> reporter: priya was lucky enough to find her mother a place in a hospital, only to find out there was no oxygen. >> i'm so scared what's going to happen with my mom. >> are you angry?

>> i'm so angry because of the government is so careless, they don't even care that the public is suffering. >> reporter: her mother is now in critical condition. like many here, she feels completely overwhelmed. for those who can't source their own oxygen, this is the only option. a drive-in oxygen center by the side of the road. a woman arrives unconscious in a rickshaw. several hospitals have already turned her away. they simply didn't have the beds. now she is relying on the

kindness of strangers. her sons work desperately to try to revive her. this isn't a hospital or even a clinic, it's a sikh temple. but for these people who have already been turned away from so many hospitals, this is their last chance at survival. the leader of the sikh charity that runs this facility says it gets no support at all from the government. he says he already had covid twice, but he and his volunteers continue to work 24 hours a day. >> we want to save their lives. >> it must hurt your heart to see the way your people are suffering. >> yes, madam. many times we cry also. what is going on.

>> reporter: it is impossible to escape the tragedy of this vicious second wave. coronavirus is ravaging the old, but it has not spared india's young. the prime minister has announced that everyone over the age of 18 can get the vaccine. but with less than 2% of the country inoculated, that offers only a distant hope. so india's capital continues to burn, suffocated by the rampant spread of this deadly virus. a city and a country brought to its knees, praying for respite. >> clarissa, it is stunning to see this. people searching for oxygen in the streets, the hospital bed shortages. has the government taken any

steps to try to figure this out, or what have they done? >> reporter: so the government has just announced something called oxygen express operations, essentially trying to use india's railways to deliver that precious liquid oxygen to the cities that need it most. they implemented this just about a day ago. but honestly, anderson, we haven't seen yet that it's making any kind of real impact. we visited a hospital today after it put out a tweet saying they were about to run out of oxygen in the next one to two hours, jeopardizing the lives of the 70 covid patients who were being treated at that hospital. so this is not a problem that's going away fast. >> clarissa, stay with us. i want to bring in chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta. sanjay, first of all, what do you make of this situation here in india? i know there's some talk, some have blamed possibly a variant

but there's other factors as well. >> yeah, i don't know that we can -- i mean the situation just -- it's devastating. that's really heartbreaking, this piece that clarissa is reporting. i don't know that we can say this is due to the variants. we just don't have -- there's not enough sequencing that's happening over there. we know one variant they're talking about, b. 1617, it has mutations that we've seen around the world, in south africa and here in the united states in california. but they have only sequenced 1% of the patients who have actually had covid, so i just don't know. this is the basics, as clarissa is talking about, you know. large numbers of people coming together, a country that basically declared an end game in march. i think last year there were many people i would talk to in india who were somewhat surprised india had done as well frankly as they had done. now we're seeing these numbers. clarissa asked the question to

the one gentleman about do you believe the numbers. you have a 20% to 25% positivity rate, more than 300,000 people being officially diagnosed, which suggests that the numbers of newly infected people every day could be over a million if you do the math on that. we know that the number of people who are diagnosed a few weeks after that is when you see the real surge in hospitalizations and then a few weeks after that the surge in deaths. so the hospitalizations are what they are now. what are the next four to six weeks going to look like? this gets a lot worse. >> and clarissa, have you met a lot of people who have been able to get a vaccine? >> reporter: yes. i mean roughly 2% of the population has been able to get a vaccine. not younger people up until basically today when the prime minister announced that anyone over the age of 18 would be able to go ahead and get it. but like so many scenes here, it's chaotic, anderson. there's not a coherent system.

there's lines everywhere. people who are healthy are afraid to go to places like hospitals that might offer a vaccine because they're worried that they could contract the virus. and then on top of this, you have the prime minister here coming out and urging people to go to the polls today in west bengal. this is after he's already faced so much criticism for allowing members of his government to hold big political rallies and state elections across the country. he continues to face a lot of criticism, criticism that his government is trying to clamp down on and put a stop to by putting pressure on social media platforms. >> sanjay, there are 29 air india flights arriving into the u.s. every day. they say my may 11th they're going to raise that to 32 flights per day which is pre-pandemic levels. from a health perspective, should those flights be coming directly to the u.s. right now? >> i think this is a complicated question, anderson, in part

because when you look at the real utility of these types of travel restrictions, because i think a lot of people look at that and say obviously you want to restrict travel internationally, but the issue is twofold. one is that we know that these mutations that we were just talking about, they already are around the world. one of them is predominantly in south africa, another one is in california. we know that these mutations already exist so you have to ask yourself what are you accomplishing, first of all. and are you possibly causing further harm by also as a result of travel restrictions, is it going to also potentially make it more difficult for supplies to get into a place that really desperately needs supplies. we talk about the vaccine and that's critically important, but right now, you're in an acute situation over there where delhi is in lockdown until may 3rd. looking at clarissa's piece, i don't know what lockdown looks like. it looks like there are a lot of people out and about. they really have to bring the

situation under control quickly and that's going to involve just basically trying to get the virus to stop spreading within that country. whether the travel restrictions help at this point, i'm not sure that they do. >> sanjay, clarissa ward, thank you so much, clarissa, you and your team. remarkable reporting, thank you. coming up next, rudy giuliani weighs in on the feds raiding his home and office. plus the latest and further implications from one of the reporters who broke the story. cindy mccain joins us on her husband's legacy and what he'd make of the republican party today. ro fashionably la te. (sister) we can not be late. (brother) there's a road right there. (brother) that's a cat. wait, just hold madi's headpiece. (sister) no. seriously? (brother) his name is whiskers. (bride) what happened to you? whose cat is that? (brother) it's a long story. (sister) oh my gosh. (farmer) whiskers! there you are! (avo) the subaru crosstrek. the adventurous s-u-v for adventurous people. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru.

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there's breaking news on the rudy giuliani investigation. moments ago he gave his first extended public comments after federal investigators raided his home on wednesday and also his office. part of an ongoing two-year investigation into whether he illegally lobbied you rain

jan -- ukrainian officials. giuliani served as the former president's personal lawyer of course. he hasn't been charged, denies any wrongdoing. this afternoon on a radio show he said, quote, the search warrant is one act of failing to register as a foreign -- failing to file as a foreign agent which is completely false. he just told fox news that the evidence the investigators seized was exculpakuculpatoryex. joined by maggie haberman and andrew mccabe. maggie, you've got some evidence of how the president's advisers pushed him not to comment on giuliani. what more have you learned? >> they have been trying to get him to not say anything. after michael cohen had his hotel room, apartment and office searched by the fbi, trump called michael cohen, i think it was within a day and possibly sooner than that. they have been trying to get trump not to do that. as far as we know they have not

spoken. they really are not talking very much since the white house ended for the former president. but he did say something on fox news this morning, trump did. rudy giuliani is a, quote unquote, patriot. that's the kind of endorsement that trump's folks were hoping he wouldn't make in this way. we'll see if he can stick to just saying that and nothing more. >> andrew, there's been a lot of talk about attorney/client privilege. how absolute is that? if there is evidence of criminal activity, does the privilege go away even with an attorney? >> well, the attorney/client privilege is one of the strongest and most viable privileges you can have. there is no doubt that the search warrant scooped up a lot of material from giuliani's office that is likely privileged. but there is a process in place to make sure that that stuff is filtered out. so everything that was taken from the search will first be reviewed by a team that is simply looking for privileged material. those matters will be taken out and the remainder will be given

back to the investigative agents and prosecutors. this is something that the department of justice and the southern district of new york does all the time. i'm sure that plan was part of the approval that came out of the justice department to move forward with the search warrant. and let's face it, this has happened before. it's exactly the same process that they went through to search michael cohen's house so it's not without precedent. >> maggie, giuliani said on his radio show today, you've not going to stop me or convict me of some phony crime. he talked about his accomplishments and said investigators were in his words jealous of him. is there any reason to think that he actually has a -- does he have a legal strategy here? >> i mean, look, his legal strategy is what you're seeing, anderson. it is important to note that he has denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with anything yet, although certainly yesterday was an escalation from what we had seen before in this investigation. his strategy is to keep saying it is a witch hunt, which is really what we saw former president trump do throughout his entire tenure.

we saw rudy giuliani do that during not one but two impeachments and during the robert mueller investigation. it is important to remember that giuliani has been presenti or connected to nearly every major controversy around president trump when he was in office, whether he was defending him or connected to the events that the former president was impeached for. i think you had a lot of people around giuliani who -- either former advisers or people who worked in his administration who are very despondent over what they are seeing. they are saying they don't recognize the person that is talking right now and saying the things that he is saying and they are hoping that he gets perhaps sounder legal advice than he's getting right now. >> andrew, the fact that they had enough information to get warrants to be able to do this, what does that tell you? is this some fishing expedition? >> it is definitely not a fishing expedition.

i would expect, anderson, that they have a very solid case probably on the fara charge and that was enough to get them the warrant and high level approval to go forward. searching a law office and searching the attorney who represented the former president. but what they are expecting to get i would guess is all kinds of other information that might lead to evidence of other crimes. the fara charge itself is not that substantial, but the question now is where does this investigation go? there's all kinds of things that could have been in that office or that residence. communications with other people, documents, contracts, all sorts of things that might indicate or substantiate many of the different allegations we've heard about rudy giuliani. so i think mr. jewegiuliani sho be pretty concerned. >> michael cohen was on cnn

saying he told giuliani that the former president doesn't care about anyone or anything and that he would be, quote, the next one to be thrown under the bus. do you believe there is any scenario in which giuliani would cooperate against the former president? >> i mean i can't read into giu giuliani's mind at the current moment. i think that he will say that that would never happen. again, i want to be clear, i don't know what they would be pressing him on in terms of trump. that's several steps down the road right now. but certainly giuliani is in a difficult situation right now. if trump is the longer term target, there is going to be growing pressure on him. that is certainly something that some folks around trump are worried about right now. we'll see where it goes. but remember, michael cohen very early on said he was not going to succumb to pressure and then his wife was faced with getting indicted and then he did. so we'll see where this goes. >> i just want to play a clip of something giuliani said on fox a short time ago.

>> they got perturbed at the end of the surge when they had taken about seven or eight electronic items of mine, which is what they took, and two of someone else's, they weren't taking the three hard drives which are electronic devices. they just mimic the computer. i said, well, don't you want these? and they said what are they? i said those are hunter biden's hard drives. and they said no, no, no, no, no. >> andrew, what do you make of that? >> well, it's always tough interpreting what mr. giuliani says. but i think it's important for your viewers to know that search warrants are written very specifically. you have to tell the judge exactly what evidence you think you will be able to find at the location being searched. so it's certainly possible that the parameters of the search warrant might not have included hunter biden's hard drives or anybody else's hard drives other

than rudy giuliani's. so that's simply one possible explanation as to why they might not have taken something. but honestly, i'd rather get that right from the agents than take mr. giuliani's word. >> andrew, what is happening now in any kind of investigation like this? obviously you don't know about this particular investigation, but just in general, what is happening now? they have taken the stuff. now what happens? >> so now because of the unique situation of it being attorney's possessions, that filter i talked about has to go on first. so all that stuff needs to be reviewed by people who are not part of the investigative team and what's considered not to be privileged then makes its way to the investigators. they will then go through everything with a fine tooth comb. they will be looking at specifically mr. giuliani's communications with other people that might indicate all sorts of other activity. remember, he was implicated or

at least referred to in the indictment of lev parnas and it igor fruman. so there is all kinds of directions that this might go and i'm sure the investigators are waiting to get their hands on it. just ahead, the former president's obsession with a 2020 recount that is dividing republicans. it is controversial for both why it is being conducted and who's performing the audit. also cindy mccain joins us to talk about the future of the republican party as well as her new memoir about her nearly four-decade marriage to former senator john mccain. xactly why we built these mowers, to clear the way for stuff like this, right here. run with us, because the best yards are planted with real memories. search john deere mowers for more.

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tonight "the washington post" is reporting that unnamed advisers to the former president say he's fixated on a republican-led audit of the 2020 vote currently under way in arizona's largest county. he talks about it constantly. so what's the latest? >> well, i want to start, anderson, by saying what we're learning here about what's happening in maricopa county, first of all, irony is not dead. the reason why i'm starting there is because what you're seeing behind me is a carnival. this is called the crazy times carnival at the arizona state fairgrounds. it just kicked off about 30 minutes ago. and then over here, i could

throw a rock and hit it, is where this review of the 2020 ballots is taking place. but this is unlike any tally you have ever seen before. this is yet another tally of the 2.1 million ballots in maricopa county but this so-called audit is unlike any other. these are ballot counters heading into a shift. >> have you ever done election counting before? >> no. but it's -- there's nothing to it. it's pretty obvious. >> no, thanks. >> reporter: most don't want to talk. >> we're just trying to do a story. >> reporter: openly partisan, as you see displayed on some cars and in what they say. >> what news group are you from? >> i'm from cnn. >> okay, no, thank you. >> people are wondering what to look at for. >> reporter: oan is the small

right-wing outlet that has promoted false claims that donald trump won the 2020 election. oan is live streaming the event, and its hosts have helped raise funds for this exercise. we were initially told we could not enter the publicly owned state fairgrounds, but when we tried again another time -- >> i'm kyung lah with cnn. >> okay. you guys are on the second level. >> reporter: we followed that officer's instructions. >> there is media parking. >> reporter: but then these guys showed up. >> i'm not authorized to speak to the press or the media. >> reporter: even though these uniformed men look like police, they're not. they're a volunteer group called the arizona rangers. >> so you're trespassing. >> reporter: this man is wearing a badge from cyber ninjas. that's the florida-based company being paid $150,000 by the gop controlled senate to conduct this review. here's what republican jack sellers, the maricopa county board of supervisors chairman

thinks about cyber ninjas. >> everything they're doing is so unprofessional that it's really bothersome. i don't feel it helps me to get into the weeds too far on all the craziness that i see going on. >> reporter: sellers knows the difference. he leads the republican majority board of supervisors. they already conducted two audits with bipartisan observers in public view that found no evidence of widespread election fraud. the board of supervisors fought the state senate in court to keep the ballots but lost and turned over the ballots. >> when you accept responsibility for an election, it can't be about a party, it can't be about a person. it has to be about representing all the voters. >> reporter: arizona news agencies and their lawyer fought to get a reporter into the site where the count is happening and days into the audit got in. a news camera then caught the unusual process of ballots being scanned with uv lights. in a news conference, the hired

representative for the arizona state senate struggled to explain why. >> what are the uv lights for? >> the uv lights are looking at the paper and it's part of several teams that are involved in the paper evaluation. >> for what? for what purpose? >> i personally don't know. >> it's really a fishing expedition for stuff that we know doesn't exist. >> reporter: arizona's secretary of state warns what's happening in arizona may just be the next page in the playbook of the big lie. >> they cried and cried for an audit for months. they have finally gotten it and they're going to try to use this and get it other places too. >> so you think that what happens here will impact other places? >> oh, absolutely. absolutely. >> it's really stunning. i mean it's crazy times, as you -- the name of the carnival you're standing in front of. are there any legal battles

here? >> reporter: oh, absolutely. you have a number of people trying to stop this process. the arizona secretary of state, public interest groups, a member of the board of supervisors. it's a lot of people trying but so far the judge has allowed this audit to continue saying that he wasn't completely convinced that there was significant damage being held to those ballots. but on those uv lights, we are learning a little bit more about the process because the judge said you've got to tell us something. cyber ninjas gave us a somewhat woefully inadequate explanation so we still don't know exactly what those uv lights are looking for. but they were used, anderson, and, you know, expect more legal things day by day. anderson. >> kyung lah, appreciate it. thanks very much. i'm joined now with kicindy mccain who along with two others was censured in january for

refusing to overturn biden's win there. she's the author of a memoir about her life with john mccain. mrs. mccain, such a pleasure to see you and have you on the program again. i want to talk about your book, but we just came out of the crazy times carnival with kyung lah. i wanted to ask you about the state of the republican party. first of all, what do you think of this recount that's going on, which is essentially an extension of the big lie? >> really the only thing i can say is that we inaugurated a president in january and we've been through this recount thing before. i just think there's better ways to spend time and money and certainly not on a recount that's months and months and months old. with that said, i also understand that voters or some voters that do not believe that the election itself was not correct, i think it's time to

move on. i think it's time to remember that we should be here working for our country and not our party. and that's the kind of things that john mccain stood for and the kind of things that i hope i can help represent his legacy with. >> when you found out you were being censured, what -- what did that -- what went through your mind? >> well, my husband was censured too so it's the first husband/wife team that's ever been censured in arizona. >> then it's a badge of honor. >> i think nothing of it. believe me, i think nothing of it. >> has it ever been clear to you why the former president was so seemingly fixated on your husband, to the point of going after your husband's legacy even after he died? >> i really don't know any of that. you know, my life has moved on so far from those particular moments that were so difficult. more importantly, you know, what we are working on and what we stand for is what's good about america. and it is time to move on and it

is time for both of our parties, but particularly the republican party, to take a look at itself and remember that we used to be the party of inclusion. we used to be the party of abraham lincoln. we've strayed, and it's time that we gather ourselves and put ourselves back to where we were, which was a party that was for the good of all people, not just the slim few. >> things are so polarized these days, but for a democracy to work, we need multiple parties. we need at the very least two parties who are functioning and who are responsible and who can clash on ideas, and that's where the best solutions come from. how does the republican party get back to the party that you see it should be? >> well, obviously as i talk in my book about the act of civility, the act of kindness, the act of empathy and cooperation between both

parties. until we start living those ideals again and working together both as people on capitol hill but also people around the country, we're just going to be in a stalemate forever. and so that's why i talk a great deal about what john stood for in his acts of civility and his willingness to work across party lines for the good of the country. he didn't always agree with people. i don't always agree with people either. but you do what's right for the country and that's what leadership is all about. >> it's also now such a society where there are many people in congress, on both sides of the aisle, who, you know, are expert tweeters and there's social media seems to be -- you see some of the qanon curious congress people who are serving now who seem to be all about just raising money and raising their profile by being extreme

on social media. it doesn't seem it's about actually getting things done. >> well, i truly believe that voters are obviously the only key to all of this. i think voters are smart people. and i believe when they see people being selfish and not working for, first of all, their district let alone their state and the country, voters can make a good decision and throw the bums out. and so there's an election coming up in two years, and that's something that we'll all pay attention to and hopefully see some more changes occur. >> had your husband been at the capitol on january 6th, what do you think he would have done, said, thought about what we witnessed? >> well, first of all, he would have been very disappointed. that's not the government and the senate or house that he grew up in more or less, i mean as a senator and a house member. but i also think, knowing john

mccain the way i did and the way many people knew, he probably would have barged out the doors and got in their faces about this. i have no doubt -- >> that sounds about right. >> -- that he wouldn't have kept quiet. but so much has happened since then and the reality that somehow this could happen within the borders of our own country is very, very disheartening. and so i think it's time -- i think people are seeing this for what it is and it's a few select people misbehaving and not doing what's good for the country. i think you'll see things change. >> you write about sarah palin in your new book. you address why she wasn't at your husband's funeral. she was on the ticket with your husband. he had put her on the map and she didn't send a note of good wishes when he was down. that is not someone that you invite to a final farewell. palin disputes that series of events and called it a gut punch. i'm wondering what you say to

that? >> well, the people that we wanted to have around us, and particularly john, because he's the one that really made those decisions, were people that we knew, we loved, they loved us. it was a very difficult time. and so we wanted to be surrounded by people that we knew had been good friends and that we loved and would see him to his final days and also remember his legacy and take care of his legacy. >> i want to ask you about senator lindsey graham. you write about his friendship in the book. in the past i know you've said you have nothing negative to say about senator graham and i think that says a lot about you and your family. do you -- you reconcile -- you have found a way to reconcile his dedication to your husband and his dedication to the former president, clearly. >> lindsey is not just a good friend, he's like a member of

our family. and he is -- he is someone that i love like a brother. so i have nothing ill to say of lindsey or anybody. he's made his choices and that's fine. lindsey is, again, i say a member of our family. he's been with our children a lot. he's someone -- he visited my sons overseas when they were in afghanistan and iraq. so i just can't really address that. he's too close a member of a family to me. >> the title of the book is "stronger." really there are so many examples of strength and so many different kinds of strength shown in this book. you write about a struggle with open opioid addiction. you write illness is not a scandal and it never should be. i think it's such an important thing that you are open about this and it gives strength, i

think, to a lot of other people. how was the process of dealing with that and dealing with it in the public eye? >> well, it was a series of things, honestly. what i never wanted to do was humiliate my husband in any way or any member of my family. and by not talking to my husband about the issues that i had and the problems that i had, it made it even worse. there are so many ways that nowadays that people have the opportunity to get help, including physicians themselves in not prescribing these drugs. i was a woman in earlier years where it was very easy to say go home and take this bottle full of 100 pills and have a drink. that was literally what was said to me one time. >> wow. >> so nowadays i look at it as i would never want anybody to endure what i endured and that was to be publicly humiliated. that's the worst thing that you

can do to an addict or alcoholic. it drives them under and could possibly kill them. so i look to all of you in the media, which you have, to remind people this is a disease. it's not a weakness, it's a disease and it needs -- it needs careful care like anything else. >> cindy mccain, i really appreciate your time tonight. the book is "stronger" and i hope a lot of people go out and read it. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> take care. coming up, what president biden is saying after republican senator tim scott said last night the u.s. is not a racist country. to the max oh yeah! honey, you still in bed? yep! bye! that's why we love skechers max cushioning footwear. they've maxed out the cushion for extreme comfort. it's like walking on clouds! big, comfy ones! oh yeah!

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some news now following president biden's address to congress and the nation. you recall south carolina senator tim scott in the republican rebuttal last night said, quote, hear me clearly. america is not a racist country. this suggestion being that president biden perhaps believed it was. nbc news talked about that with the president. >> he said among other things america isn't racist. is it? >> no, i don't think the american people are racist. but i think after 400 years, african-americans have been left in a position where they are so far behind the eight ball in terms of education, health, in terms of opportunity, i think

the overhang from all of the jim crow and before that slavery have had a cost and we have to deal with it. >> the president spoke as the nation continues to see high-profile incidents obviously involving law enforcement and people of color. joining me now is w.kamau bell. the first episode looks at policing in america. it's great to see you. do you agree with president biden? >> i think we have to ask who are you defining as the american people, because that's the thing that i get hung up on. we have to understand that this country was built on racism and currently racism is running this country in many ways. you look at the policing system and the mass incarceration system, you look at how schools in black neighborhoods and latinx neighborhoods are not as well funded as schools in white neighborhoods. so the system of america is racist and that does benefit people. also i'm old enough to remember when we had a president that was a full-on racist just a few months ago. >> the question that biden was

asked or that biden said is that the american people are not racist. how would you address that? do you agree with that? >> i mean, again, who are you defining as the american people? are there people in this country who are racist? yes, there are. are there people in this country who run the country who are in power positions who are racist or racial opportunists? yes, there are. so the question for me is like are we calling the american people racist? i don't know. but the system of america is based in racism and runs in many ways on racism. so for me i feel like we're getting caught up in rhetorical games here. whatever the people are, the system certainly promotes racism. >> for those -- there are a lot of people in congress, there are people on other networks who say there is no systemic racism. they don't see systemic racism in the united states. what do you say to that? >> and that's a part of the

nature of racism in this country is that we can prove it. there have been many studies that prove racism. we have episodes about economic disparity, economic inequality. we have an episode about how black people are not educated enough in elementary school so we can even get into s.t.e.m. careers like white people do. the racism is so hard for some people to see and some people are allowed not to see it so we get caught up on whether it's true or not when it's provable that it's true this system is racist. >> it was so interesting to see what the initial statement put out by the minnesota police was about george floyd's killing in the light of what we obviously now know and very quickly afterwards knew and how the initial statement, which was solely based on the officer's initial reports was just completely -- it was just inaccurate and it said that they noticed there was a medical incident and they called an

ambulance. that was sort of the tone and the tenor of it. yesterday a judge in north carolina ruled the police body cam footage in the shooting death of andrew brown jr. will not be released to the public any time soon. it can be shown to his family with certain conditions attached. how do you square that sort of ruling with the concept of transparency. >> yeah, we're also dealing with a similar thing out here in the bay area. a man named mario gonzalez, a 26-year-old latinx man was killed by the police. apparently he was drunk in the park. they initially said there was a fight and now he struggled because he was a drunk guy getting harassed by cops and now he's dead. a lot of times with policing you want to talk about the good apples versus the bad apples when in fact it is the system of policing that has systemic racism through it. it doesn't matter if you are an individual racist in the system. it doesn't matter if individual americans claim to be racist or are not racist, the system that

we live in is racist. until we examine the entire system of policing and have the appetite that has to do looking out for all of our best interests, we're just nibbling around the edges of reform. >> you look at policing the police. can you talk about what we'll see? >> well, yeah. a lot of this episode is based on the fact that last summer a lot of people in the country first heard of defund the police. somebody who lives in oakland and is surrounded by activists and academics i had heard about that movement a few years ago. i had oh, my stars, why would we defu defund the police? i had that same reaction. so this is to explain what defund the police actually is, and also to talk about as we said earlier in this interview, the racist history of policing. policing in many parts is based on slave catching. so we have to look at the whole system, where it came from,

where it is and have the appetite to imagine new systems. >> i have not heard oh, my stars in quite some time. w. kamau bell, appreciate it. the new season, "united shades of america" premieres this sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern here on cnn. we'll be right back.

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the news continues. let's hand it over to chris for "cuomo primetime." >> i am chris cuomo and welcome to "primetime." there's big news on our watch tonight. rudy giuliani and the former president that he served or potentially entering the gravest legal jeopardy they have faced. and giuliani has chosen the most dangerous course in dealing with it. he has decided to take the matter public, and challenge a department of justice that has been looking at him for two years.