good evening. republican house leader kevin mc mccarthy has a decision to make, and it may just affect the entire future of the republican party. liz cheney, who's repeatedly and pub publicly expressed her disdain for the lies and actions taken by the former president. cheney did it again today, behind closed doors. this afternoon, told a group of conservatives at a conference in georgia to accept the idea that the 2020 election was stolen is, quote, poison in the bloodstream of our democracy. we will have more on what she said, in a moment. but how republican house leader kevin mccarthy deals with cheney is very much an open question. after all, kevin mccarthy has been anything but consistent, and seems to change his opinion, depending on how he seens senses the political winds are blowing.

listen to what he said, just after the attack on the capitol. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have, immediately, denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action, by president trump. >> now, keeping him honest, the speaker was a man with aw a unique-vantage point to judge the president's culpability. lawmakers who were briefed on the call, afterward, have told cnn they were told mccarthy was pleading with the president, to help against the rioters. but the former president told mccarthy quote, well, kevin, i guess these people are more upset about the election than you are. so, it sounded like mccarthy was finally taking a stand there on january 13th against the former president or against the then-president who he thought would, soon, be just a former president. after a week after his comments on the house floor, a different kevin mccarthy emerged.

>> president -- former-president trump and other important people provoked this -- those folks to come to the capitol. do you believe that president -- president trump provoked? >> i don't believe he provoked if you listen to what he said at the rally. >> well, in one week, he went from saying the president bears responsibility to, quote, i don't believe he provoked. and a week after that comment, mccarthy went to mar-a-lago to meet with the then-former president. and there is no mistaking the meaning of this photo. he is all but kissing the former-president's ring. and that is what this current fight, inside the republican party, is about. loyalty. not to a specific ideology or policies. no. loyalty to one man. and to show loyalty, means pretending all the lies he spouts are true. congresswoman cheney is apparently one of the few republicans in congress not afraid of the former president. or at least not afraid to speak out for the truth. senator mitt romney has also spoken out. and like cheney, voted for the

former president's impeachment. here's how he was received this weekend, at a republican conference. >> you know me, as a person who says what he thinks. and i don't hide the fact that i wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues. >> the senator barely survived a censure vote from that group, not long after the booing finally stopped. but congresswoman cheney might no be so lucky when it comes to keeping her leadership position in the party. says that, after speaking with colleagues it's clear her support in the conference is waning. in the face of that, cheney, again, today, spoke out. and our jamie gangel joins us now with that breaking news. so, what more are you learning about what congresswoman cheney said today? >> it's clear, anderson, as you said. liz cheney is not afraid of donald trump. and what she did today was double down. she basically said that this is

about truth, versus lies. this isn't even about the heart and soul of the republican party. for her, it's about saving democracy. and i just want to read what she said. quote, we can't rebuild the party or the conservative movement on a foundation of lies. we can't embrace the notion, the election is stolen. it's a poison in the bloodstream of our democracy. we can't be a cult of personality, we can't whitewash what happened on january 6th or pr perpetuate trump's big lie. it is a threat to democracy. what he did on january 6th is a line that cannot be crossed. and i'll tell you, anderson, from what i'm learning, this is just the beginning. i think you will see liz cheney come out, again, this week, this month, this year. it is her -- when -- when she

voted for -- to impeach donald trump. she meant what she said. and she is going to keep fighting and calling him out. >> it's so interesting because, clearly, kevin mccarthy, you know, has sensed the political winds shifting after he made this initial statement on january 13th. you know, by a week later, he had changed his tune. and then, of course, he went down to -- to mar-a-lago to try to, you know, document the moment on -- on -- on film. so, is liz cheney unaware of the political winds within the republican party? or is she aware that there is more quiet support for her? or is she simply making a stand for what she believes is the truth, whatever the consequences for her? >> she is making a stand. she is very aware. whether she loses her leadership post or loses her seat, she believes that democracy comes above politics. let me just talk about kevin mccarthy. my sources are telling me that

kevin mccarthy is going after liz cheney for one reason, and one reason only. he is trying to get back into donald trump's good graces. because he wants to be speaker of the house, and he thinks the only way there is to get donald trump fundraising, and his political support. that's what this is about. >> and what is the likelihood of mccarthy calling for a vote among gop-house members on cheney's potential removal as a conference share. >> >> i think it's going to happen. and it's likely that it will happen on may 12th at 9:00 that morning. they have their republican conference. i'm being told that, either, kevin mccarthy will call for the vote. or he will get one of his allies to call for it. but no question, he is orches orchestrating this move against liz cheney, as a way to do

donald trump's bidding. >> jamie gangel, fascinating reporting. i appreciate it. want to get perspective now from "new york times" columnist, tom friedman, offer for thank you for being late, on optimist guide to thriving in the age of acceleration. tom, i mean, there are a lot of democrats who, maybe, are watching right now. watching what is going on in the republican party and think, great. let them fight amongst themselves. you and i have talked about this, before. this isn't just some internal-republican squabble. you say this actually matters for the future of our democracy. >> you know, anderson, whenever people ask me how i feel, these days, i give them an answer that almost sounds like english is my second language. i just say to them, c country n right. country not right. our country's not right. and what liz cheney is doing, what mitt romney are doing, is standing up for our democracy. i think people are being lulled here. in the very best way, by joe biden doing terrific job in

dealing with the vaccination. terrific job in getting the stimulus checks out. there is a sense that everything is okay. everything is not okay. anderson, our democracy, today, is as threatened as at any time, you know, since donald trump took that elevator ride. why -- why is that? because something very gradually happened, and then started to happen quickly. just in the last few weeks. and, that is, that basically, subscribing to the big lie, that this election was stolen, has become a prerequisite now for thriving, surviving, and rising, in this-republican party. and what does that mean, anderson? it means that this gop is going to be built on a gigantic lie. now, how could you possibly ever trust this party in power, again? if the calling card of getting

into this party is claiming that our last election, the greatest election, certainly in modern-american history, where more republicans and democrats voted in the middle of the pandemic. their votes were counted by their neighbors, and republican judges and election monitors affirmed their votes. the attorney general of the united states, the fbi director, all appointed by trump, also, confirmed the integrity of this election. that -- that denying all of that, and making the calling card of this party that you have to subscribe to this big lie. that is terrifying. think of what would happen if they got back into power. and therefore, what liz cheney is doing, what mitt romney are doing, is they are not just fighting for the republican party. but they certainly are. they are fighting for the future of our democracy. it is in so much-more danger now than people realize. >> what's so interesting about what you are saying and scary about what you are saying is -- is -- i mean, it's -- if it's in

as much danger as before -- it's actually in more danger because, as you said, most people have been lulled into a feeling of, like, you know what? like, the foot is off the gas pedal. we are -- we don't have crazy tweets every day. things are moving along, fine. we're optimistic about coming out of this -- this pandemic. but when you start to drill down, i mean, there was a cnn poll from april found 70% of republicans said they don't think president biden legitimately won. and we know, republican legislature -- dominated legislatures across the country are passing laws to limit voting access. >> now, just imagine, for one second, anderson, we have over 300 bills in over-40 states. trying to, basically, promote voter suppression. limit access to the polls. imagine if they succeed. imagine, if, in 2022 or 2024, 40%-plus of the country elects our next president. and who dominates the senate and

the house. you want to see people in the streets? i'll show you people in the streets. if we get real-minority rule, based on voter suppression. and again, that's why what -- what cheney and -- and romney are doing, in trying to fight this. because that big lie is what is then giving permission for all these voter-suppression legislations. and -- and something enormous is at stake here. i mean, think -- the -- the reason people are being lulled is not only because biden's success. but it's that it actually happened really fast. it's happened, like, in the last couple of weeks, where everyone fell into line. and people, like kevin mccarthy, their willingness to politically prostitute themselves, in order to, you know, get the speaker of the house. it is breathtaking. that someone would sell their soul that shamelessly is -- it's just chilling.

now, imagine if you would do that, what will they do once they're in power, to keep power? we are in real danger here. >> there are, also, selling their souls to a person, the former president, who has no loyalty. who has no shame. who has disdain for these very people, who are traveling down to mar-a-lago to suck up to him. a >> well, again, that's part of the mystery here. that, there's only a few people. the adam kinzingers, the mitt romneys, the murkowskis, you know, the liz cheneys, who are ready to stand up and say, you know what? being in politics is great. being in the house or the senate is great. but surely, it isn't something worth selling your soul for. to go down in history, sealllin your soul to this man, this soulless man, who cares nothing for the laws and constitution of this country. it is absolutely incomprehensible, to me. but it is happening.

and what i am trying to say, anderson, it started to happen really quickly. just in the last-few weeks. where, what we thought was a big lie that would fade away, in fact, what's happened is it has become the embracing of the big lie has become the ticket into this party, into trump's endorsement, and the future. >> so, if it is a threat to -- it democracy, tfitself, what do americans do about it? i mean, to those who are -- who believe it's a threat? >> every principled republican, and there are so many we know because they stood up to defend this election. every-principled republican has to rally to what liz cheney is doing. what she is doing is incredibly courageous. and she clearly has decided, she is going to politically die on this hill. okay? but this is -- she has taken a principled stand. mitt romney is a good man. he is taking a principled stand. when he looked out at that audience in utah last weekend,

he said something very -- he said, aren't you embarrassed? aren't you embarrassed? really, aren't you ashamed at what you are doing? we, all, have to help them. but, anderson, i want to take you back to post 9/11 and what was going on in the middle east and what was i arguing, at the time, about the muslim world? you have to have a war of ideas, you have to have a war of ideas inside islam. we cannot change it from the outside. this is your story. this is your narrative. and republicans, today, need to have a war of ideas in side the republican party. in order to -- to make sure that -- that honest and fair and positions of integrity and people triumph because, if they don't, and they get back into power, we are in real danger. i'm sorry. until they have this internal fight, and the only way to cure them of that is to keep them out of power, until they do. >> well, also, i mean, republicans actually used to be a party of ideas. whether one, you know, agreed

with them, or not. there were a lot of ideas floating around, and arguments being made. they're anything but. i mean, certainly, the former president. there are no ideas there. it is a cultive personality. there is irony in what happened today, or if you can call it that. liz cheney said all this behind closed doors to former speaker paul ryan. and ryan, obviously, left politics because of the current climate. but he also sits on the board of fox news, which has spent months pushing the big lie. i mean, the point is, so few people are clean on this. >> it's clearly this is a network with a party, not a party with a network, you know? and, you know, rupert murdoch and his son lockwood murdock, they will have to answer to history for what they allowed to go off on the airwaves from their -- from their network. but, you know, i just can't tell you how important this is. this moment. and -- and i think, and just how important it is that we -- we support these people.

what liz cheney is doing, i think and i hope, is going to empower, enable, and inspire other-principled republicans. we saw, just before i went on the air, i was reading about george w. bush now coming out. and basically, echoing what she is saying. so, i think, the fight is finally, finally, being engaged. and -- and god bless liz cheney for having the courage to stand up, virtually alone in the beginning, her and romney. and i think you're going to see them find supporters, now. i think people will start to stand up. and -- and people -- nikki haleys and the kevin mccarthys, who have gone along with this shameful, big lie, i think, in the end, are really going to regret it. i sure hope so. >> tom friedman, appreciate it, tom. thanks very much. we are going to continue the conversation next with two republican-party insiders, including a former member of congress. what does congresswoman cheney hope to achieve? and can she achieve it? also tonight, a famous attorney and defender of the former

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that's really beautiful. anything is possible. good morning. cisco. the bridge to possible. more on our breaking news as our jamie gangel reported before the break, congresswoman liz cheney is not letting up in her denunciations of the president, even as she faces -- to remove her from leadership. she told a group of conservatives at a conference in georgia today, republicans can't quote whitewash january 6th. nor, perpetuate the big lie. quote, it is a threat to democracy, she said. two perspectives now from inside the republican party. former congressman denver rigleman of virginia. amanda, if this is comes down to standing with liz cheney or perpetuating the bagig lie. i mean, it doesn't seem like the odds are very good for cheney. does the foundation of the republican party become a lie?

>> it -- yes. i mean, right now, it already is a lie. she is fighting to change that dynamic. we had an incredible situation, after the election. you had, what, 147 members of congress voting to object to biden's election, after the insurrection. 18 attorneys generals trying to cancel votes. dozens of conservative groups attempting to cancel votes through state legislatures. that is the dynamic liz cheney is trying to change. the odds are, clearly, stacked against her. but what makes this so different are the stakes. she is a member of leadership, making this argument. i don't think we've had that, before, anderson. we've had other people, just kind of look at this landscape. throw up their hands and say, i can't do it a thing about it. paul ryan resigned. other senators resigned. you have people like jeb bush wouldn't even show up at conventions. but she is digging her heels in and making the argument to anybody that asks the question. and that question is not going

away. whether they get rid of liz cheney in leadership, or not. >> yeah. paul ryan resigned. he is on the board of fox news now. congressman riggleman. you also say not a party of policy. what do you think is going to happen, in the short and long-term, now with, you know, the former president, clearly, still, being the driving force in the republican party? >> i think, in the short-term, up through 2022, i think you are going to see a lot of success. and, you know, liz is out there, screaming alone. adam kinzinger, as you remember, anderson, i did this last year. >> yeah. >> and i know what it feels like to be alone. and the best analogy i have is you feel like a freshman with braces at a high-school prom. i mean, you're just -- you're by yourself, and there's really nowhere to go. and when you are seeing polling, that you are sighineeing right with those still attached to stop the steal. you get a little bit discouraged and i think that's the issue we have. instead of looking at facts,

this has almost become the holy war. you know, this belief or this irrational need to have some kind of idea that the election was stolen because it didn't match your parameters. and now, that you see the conference looking like it's starting to turn on liz. the only reason they would do that, anderson, is polling. my guess is internal polling is showing liz isn't polling well. that's the only thing i could think of because, you know, kevin just supported her not too long ago. so, it looks like to me, there must be some kind of internal polling. republican leadership only reacts to polling and that concerns me, also. because to have this flip that fast, which isn't that rare right now, the republican party to flip positions quickly. but it seems to me, there is something going on internally that's really been a red flag for republicans about liz. and all of a sudden, they have turned their messaging guns on liz and i think it's a shame. >> and, amanda, is this just, you know, fear of their own voters? i mean, fear of the loudest voices in -- in the party, who still support the president? and that's what all these folks in congress are just listening to?

>> it is about fear. but i think it's really about something more pathetic. it's about a lack of a vision, from anything different than trump. you have the people looking at the polling. and they don't have a better argument to make to those voters than, hey, let's double down on the insurrection. i mean, to me, that is really just the bottom level of politics here. this fight with liz cheney is not about policy. it's about doubling down in the election lie because all these people looked at the landscape and in the aftermath of 2020 and they said we don't have a better idea. so we are just going to double down and stage a bs-voting rights fight to try to restrict voting to stop these people from coming back in 2024. it is just a -- people cannot think of any other coalition to build. so they just keep stripping people away. and so, you know what? go ahead. try to win without the liz cheneys, the mitt romneys. i don't know. nascar, major-league baseball. i mean, i don't know who is left in this tent, besides matt gaetz

and marjorie taylor greene. and, kevin mccarthy, if you want to go down that road, just give up the gavel because they hold the power, anyway. >> congressman riggleman, is this -- you know, tom friedman has talked about this as a threat to dmemocracy. certainly, liz cheney says it is. do you agree? >> i agree. going forward, how are we going to have a policy discussion based on facts? where do we go from here? i had this argument in a committee meeting talking about qanon. i said listen, i'm telling you right now, there is not a democratic cabal satan-worshipping, child blood suckers. that's ridiculous. and most of them said, denver, you know, you are being paid by george soros. and it's very difficult to have a discussion, you know, based on facts when that's the automatic belief. and that belief isn't based on something that's here, on their head. it's based on their heart.

the fact that this is sort of m messionic. but we got to come to a point that facts are facts and if we are always basing something on fantasy or feelings. allowing this grift to continue because you know it's all follow the money. and when we talk about liz. when you listen to amanda talk about what is happening with election integrity as a cover for stop the steal. we continue to follow the money, we are going to see that polling relates to money. she talked about marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz. marjorie taylor greene raised t $3.2 million last quarter. so this is about money in polling. this isn't about the integrity of the message. it isn't about the future of the country. it's about winning right now and i think that is the biggest threat is we don't have people who are public servants, anymore. >> amanda, how do you think this ends? >> i think this is -- it is going to be a long story. you know, i talk to people who are trying to figure out what to do. where republicans like us fit in. do we have faction within the republican party? do we work outside of it? try to work with moderate

democrats? and all of us look at this just say this isn't a one-year thing. it's not a two-year thing. this might be a generational thing. okay? we are going to have to create new-and-different coalitions, if the republican party looks at people, like liz cheney and matt gaetz, and chooses matt gaetz. >> yeah. congressman riggleman, amanda carpenter, i appreciate it. thank you, to be continued. next up. will rudy giuliani go to court in an effort to prevent federal prosecutors from accessing items seized during the fbi raid on his apartment and office? he believes the items are protected by his relationship with the former president. we will have the latest on that, coming up. m digging through the dirt. i feel something in me, like a fire, that's just growing. i feel kinder, when nature is so kind to me. find more ways to grow at miracle-gro.com.

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alan dershowitz, who says he is acting as legal adviser rather than a lawyer for rudy giuliani says he hopes the former president will join a court fight to try to block federal prosecutors from accessing material seized during the raid on giuliani's office. he believes the seized items are protected by attorney-client privilege. joining me now, norm eisen. ambassador eisen, you wrote in a new column in "usa today." you said, this is all a red flag for trump and anyone else who followed his lead in playing fast and loose with the law. haven't there been a lot of supposed-red flags before this? i mean, does this seem different to you, in some way? >> anderson, thanks for having me back.

the -- i understand folks who say, well, we've been hearing about trump blowing through red lights for years. but there is a sense of acceleration, now, around giuliani. the thing that is different is that the president is no longer in office. there is no obstacle to his being prosecuted, now. and, i think, both, in this case, there's potential exposure. as well as, in other prosecutions going on in new york. the new york da, fulton county, georgia. so, i think, president trump's going to be in increasing peril, now that he's out of the white house. >> so, in terms of attorney-client privilege, what do you make of, you know, what dershowitz is saying and rudy giuliani saying that he hopes the the former president is going to go to court and block

the government from looking at the seized material pertaining to him. >> anderson, that won't work. the sourch dthern district of n york has heard many of these cases before, including in the cohen case. there was an unsuccessful attempt there, by mr. cohen, in which president trump -- then-president trump -- joined to try to block the government from looking at the materials. the case law in new york is that the government can look at them. the court might, or might not, decide to appoint a special master. but the privilege doesn't allow lawyers to participate in crimes. and that is what the southern district of new york wants to look at. was giuliani doing criminal activity? and did it involve president trump? they're possibly looking for that, as well. >> you were special counsel to the house judiciary committee for the first impeachment. how much do you believe a

potential case against jude giuliani would overlap with what americans saw and heard in the impeachment trial? >> well, that is the million-dollar question. that's probably one of the reasons that we had this extraordinary spectacle. so rare of a raid on mr. giuliani's premises. the -- the government is attempting to ascertain what other evidence mr. giuliani has about his own dealings with ukraine. or possibly, the president's. the impeachment was focused on president trump's shakedown of ukraine. and we wrote, in the impeachment report, about the potential-federal crimes. violations of the anti-bribery statute, mail and wire fraud. giuliani, we know, was deeply involved in the president's dealings with ukraine. and i think we're going to find out, is there any evidence, in these devices/electronics that the government has seized, tying the president and giuliani together? >> we should point out that, there are -- you know, it's

understandable to have concerns about attorney-client privilege. there is a system in place, where, you know, these -- these things have been seized. they are, then looked at by a separate team than the team doing the investigation, to look at issues of attorney-client privilege. correct? >> that's correct, anderson. i -- it's been done, hundreds and hundreds of times around the country. including, in the southern district of new york, which has one of the most-active high-profile federal-criminal dockets in the land. and there is an established procedure for doing this for protecting the privilege. but some of those documents might turn out not to be privileged, if they constitute evidence of the president, ex-president, and his lawyer working together on illegal activity. if. we've got to see what's on there, and we -- we want to be cautious and not jump to conclusions. >> norm eisen, appreciate it. thanks. up next, breaking new ossen the

protests over the shooting death of on dandrew brown jr. and his legal team continues to seek access to all the body-cam void yvideo on the day he was shot to death. you are going to hear one from one of his attorneys, andrew crump, next. so what's going on? [dog] i'm a talking dog. the other issue. [dog] oh...i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 9 million dogs.

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breaking news from elizabeth city, north carolina. at least three people have been arrested tonight during protests over the shooting death of andrew brown jr. the police chief says they were impeding traffic. this comes, just hours after brown's family and friends gathered at a church for his funeral and shared memories of the 42-year-old father and grandfather. they continued to demand transparency and justice, they say, for brown who was shot 12 days ago by sheriff deputies. body-camera video from that day, still, hasn't been released to the public. only two family members have been allowed to see a 20-second snippet of the video which a family attorney said depicted an execution. benjamin crump, another attorney for the family, spoke outside the church today. >> it doesn't make any sense, why the taxpayers will pay all this money to have uniforms

retrofitted with body-cam video. than when we need it most critically, you say we are not going to release it. >> at the time of the shooting, the arrest warrant brown was being served with was for possession of three grams of cocaine. joining me tonight is the attorney we just heard from, benjamin crump. >> mr. crump, we heard you at mr. brown's funeral calling for release of the body-cam footage. what are you being told about when you and the family will be allowed to see the entire video? >> well, at this point, anderson, it's like reverend al sharpton said at his eulogy. it seems to be a shell game. they are saying that one brother can see the video footage from the four body cameras. and just one member of our legal team, who's barred in the state of north carolina. however, they won't show it to all of his family members, his other children, his sisters and brothers. and it's such a terrible game to

play with this family, after they shot him, unjustifiably, in the back of his head. i believe, if they want to try to build trust, anderson cooper, they need to be transparent. but apparently, the district attorney does not want to build trust. >> what do you think the strategy is, by the district attorney, to limit the showing of just to one family member, one attorney? >> you know, it's asinine, anderson, because it seems to be that they are trying to figure out a way to sweep it under the rug. but right now, the whole world is watching. elizabeth city, north carolina. because we've seen all the objective evidence of the fact that his car hit a tree. that is about-15 feet from where they shot a bullet in a neighbor's home. and you are saying, they're

just -- they're just shooting recklessly. i mean, and the video's going to show that, anderson. why is it, they continue to shoot black people from the back, when we are going away from them? it's one of the most cowardly, not to mention, the most unjustifiable things you could do to a person. >> so, if they are trying to limit the video, to just one-family member, one attorney, that certainly seems to indicate they have no intention, at least of now, of publicly releasing that video. >> exactly. and i keep saying that they're going to have to release it, eventually. and unless they tamper with the video, it's going to be seen. it's not going to change. so, why won't they release the video of them killing andrew brown? what are you trying to hide? the truth is going to come out. a lie cannot live forever, and that seems to be their issue.

they want to perpetuate this fallacy, that they didn't do anything wrong. we know, stevie wonder can see, that they did something wrong because if they hadn't, they would have already released the video. >> so, will -- will you agree to have one family member and one attorney look at the video? >> well, regrettably, that is what the judge has ruled. they have, also, agreed, in 30-to-45 days, they will revisit the issue. whether you and the public can finally see this video. the longer they delay the release of this video, the more attention is going to be brought to this small town in north carolina, where andrew brown is the latest-black man who was executed by the police, unjustifiably. >> cnn is reporting that the brown family wants local-district attorney to recuse himself from the case. what -- why is that? >> because he has demonstrated that he seems to be biased.

that he does not stand for transpar transparency and accountability. and so, the family wants to have the north carolina attorney general take over the case, as was the case in minnesota with george floyd. and we're asking for the department of justice to start a federal investigation into this matter. >> your -- what is your reaction to the decision by the sheriff's office to return four of their deputies involved in the shooting to active duty? >> you know, it underscores this whole-shell game. this whole game of charades, anderson cooper, where they say they had to blur out the officers' faces to protect their identity. and then, they return 'em back to work and release their identity. you know, they will never, ever build trust with the communities of color, if they continue to play these games when they kill

us. and where our blood is splattered on the street. and they want give the taxpayers the exact thing that they paid for, which is transparency. when they have all of the police uniforms retrofitted with body-cam videos. anderson, why would they not show us the videos that the taxpayers paid all this money for? >> benjamin crump, i appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. well, up next. an exclusive look at how migrants risk -- risking lives and relying on human smugglers crossing the border and getting into the u.s. [typing sound] i had this hundred thousand dollar student debt. two hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in debt. ah, sofi literally changed my life. it was the easiest application process. sofi made it so there's no tradeoff between my dreams and paying student loans. student loans don't have to take over for the rest of your life. thank you for allowing me

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tonight extraordinary footage from mexico, the city across the border from el paso, texas. matt rivers and his team met with and followed so-called human smugglers and captured the moment when they smuggled two migrants into the u.s. it's video rarely seen from this perspective, from the migrants' point of view. human smuggling is, of course, a crime. we wanted to document the process because it's part of the reality of every day. what can be lost in the numbers

is how many arrive here using smugglers. it can be a terribly dangerous journey hundreds of thousands of people are willing to take part in to come to the u.s. >> reporter: as long as there's been a border wall, people have tried to climb it, up from mexico, down to the u.s., hoping for something better on the other side. today one such attempt starts here in juarez, mexico. two men carry a makeshift ladder, lashing it to the side. these are human smugglers who are paid to help them get into the united states. today the smugglers told us to be in this neighborhood at a certain time. if they had migrants to cross they told us we could follow them but would not tell us when or where this would take place. after we arrived, though, we're told they would, indeed, try to cross two migrants currently in the back seat of the car.

the car takes off driving a stone's throw from the border wall in el paso, texas, on the other side. further up the road the car slows. and a minute later the trio heads toward the wall as we follow behind. this smuggler has never allowed cameras to trail him before. after months of repeated requests he agreed to have only myself and a local producer follow him only recording on our cell phones knowing our presence could increase his chances of getting caught. trying to cross the wall here is extremely dangerous. so right now they're just making their way slowly towards the wall. they're crawling, clearly trying to avoid being seen by anyone on the border, dragging the ladder to go up and over the wall this is a difficult track here, no question. it's slow progress on their hands and knees and further on they catch their breath, so we had about 30 seconds to talk with the migrants. they allowed cnn to record them only if we hid their identities,

a young man and woman 18 and 20 years old originally from ecuador. they say they paid various smugglers thousands of dollars each to bring them to this point. they told us they're hoping to eventually find work in south texas. this is the last step of a journey tens of thousands of people make every year risking their lives and their freedom migrating to the u.s. with the help of smugglers. smugglers who are often accruesed of everything from sexual abuse to extortion, some taking advantage of the vulnerable my grants they purport to help. and some of those migrants are children, as record numbers of unaccompanied minors have been heading north many from central america. some make it to the u.s. and others get caught by mexican officials and end up in government-run shelters like this one. either way it's likely their families paid smugglers to bring them here. officials here say three-quarters of the kids here were smuggled, a horrifically dangerous trip.

the shelter's psychologist says they can be raped, robbed, they can be extorted, they can die on the journey. this 14-year-old girl says she was smuggled from guatemala and that along the journey passed from smuggler to smuggler, the threat of rape was always there. at times crowded into a van with many, she felt like she couldn't get enough air. we couldn't make any noise, she says. they would only open up the windows for a bit and close them. it felt like you were choking. human smuggling is often run by loosely organized groups but sometimes and especially in mexico experts say there is a big role played by organized crime. the core tells that operate so freely here, smugglers bringing people north either work directly for the cartels or independently but have to pay for the right to move through certain territories.

>> i would venture to guess it's approaching a billion dollar industry. >> reporter: former border patrol el paso sector chief manjarrez says some have used that to create smuggling networks. wide reaching and sophisticated. >> and it's almost like a fortune 500 company dealing with a supply chain. >> reporter: at the very end of that chain smugglers like these that we would follow to the wall say they work for an armed wing of the cartel. the cartel is paid roughly $2,000, a staggering some for most migrants that often leaves them penniless. the cartel gives them a small cut for a service. we try to help them, we support them, he says. but this isn't some selfless act. they get paid for this and they are part of a system where rape, extortion, kidnapping and even murder are rampant. we don't do that, he says.

we're all humans. they want to arrive safely. we don't harm them. we give them food and water and help them cross. other people may hurt them but we don't. we, of course, have no way to know if he's telling the truth, but he says for him this is a family affair. he works with his brother and even his 14-year-old nephew. they all smuggle people. the 14-year-old shows me one of the ladders they use. though when he crosses kids over the wall, some his own age or even younger, he does it another way. he says i tie a thick rope around their bellies and lower them down so they don't fall. his uncle says without them two migrants like the ones we followed through the desert who want to get to the u.s., wouldn't be able to. we watch as they hook their ladder over the border wall fence. the young man goes first.

once he's down, he runs. and the young woman then follows. once up and over, she hits the ground and races off as well. we can't watch where she goes because the smuggler tells us we've got to go. we have to run back from the fence obviously because the smuggler was afraid of getting caught. but for him it was a successful mission. but for the two people that just crossed, their journey is far from over. it's mainly desert on that side of the wall and they didn't really seem to have a plan. the smuggler told us he had no idea what happened to them after they went over. those two migrants managed to get in, but for many, that's not the case. a few days later we were filming something else on the border when we noticed something. more people desperate to cross, a woman and three young children

make a break for the wall. here, though, the actual border is just the rio grande, more of a stream really. one by one, holding hands, they make their way. and once they've crossed, they're in the u.s. but then comes the wall. a towering steel presence between them and where they want to be. border patrol detain them a few minute later. >> do we know what role be if any, mexican authorities are playing in this kind of smuggling? >> reporter: anderson, the first time we tried to go to the smugglers' house to interview them, we weren't able to because outside were three different law enforcement vehicles from a

little to no doubt that in some way the state is at least looking the other way when it comes to the facilitating smuggling like this in mexico. >> appreciate the report, thank you. the news continues. let's hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." welcome to "prime time." here is the reality, the two-party system is a challenge for our democracy and there is a real discussion to be had whether it's time to change it so that the full complement of beliefs and people who want them can be empowered in our elective bodies. but that's not where we are right now. right now we have a catastrophe on our hands because it takes two to tango in our system. one party has become consumed by its fringe, by extreme notions of division. we are in such a sad state, that