this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the the show, after 11 days and thousands of rockets and missiles unleashed in hostility, a fragile cease-fire has taken hold in israel. i'll ask the secretary of state antoine blinken what happened next. we'll keep the con sagts going with peter beinart, zachary

karabell and dan senor. and we'll explore why the arctic may be the next great region of global discord. but first here is "my take." it has been the same way for decades. every time violence between the israelis and palestinians erupts, governments around the world urge de-escalation and a cease-fire agreement is reached and experts warn the situation cannot continue like this. but it has and it will. ultimately, this is not a problem that could be resolved through power, whether political or military, it could only be resolved through moral persuasion. the pattern of violence obscured a seismic shift that has taken place over the last few decades. israel is now the superpower of the middle east. an institute at a university recently laid out the disparities.

israel's per capita gdp dwarfs that of the neighbors. 14 times that of egypt and eight times that of iran and six times of that of lebanon and double that of that saudi arabia. they have built an industrial and information age economy that excels in highly sophisticated arenas like artificial intelligence, aviation, computer-aided design and bio technology. it spends 5% of the gdp on research and development. more than any country on the planet. it has built up four exchange reserves of over $180 billion placing it 13th in the world just ahead of the united kingdom. for a nation of 9 million people, these are stunning numbers. a military comparison between israel and its neighbors is even more lopsided. israel beat a combined arab force in 1967 in six days. today, the contest will be over in hours.

israel has a larger defense budget than iran and enjoyed the quantity taf it and qualitative edge in air power even though iran has almost ten times the population. and of course israel has the only nuclear weapons arsenal in the region, estimated at almost 100 warheads. israel is powerful compared to its neighbors but it is close to invulnerable compared to the palestinians. the economic gap is a chasm. the military gap is too large to describe. you could see this in the comparative casualty numbers from the latest conflict or any recent conflict with the palestinians. for every israeli killed, there are 20 to 30 palestinian deaths. moreover, the palestinians are politically weak and divided, they're led in by hamas, a group despised by egypt and saudi arabia and in the west bank, the

85-year-old mahmoud abbas has been considered corruption and dysfunctional. he has postponed elections for 11 years. in short israel doesn't have any practical reasons to make a deal with the palestinians. it doesn't fear for its security while the rocket attacks are unnerving and terrifying to civilians, they do not inflict much damage on the country. israeli ferocious and effective security services, aided by the construction of a wall ong on the left bank and the dome system, have virtually eliminated tear attacks. israel's economy is too strong, diversified and advanced, it is straight in technology ties to countries have grown by leaps and bounds in the last two decades. countries like russia and india,

once very wary of it, now eagerly court israel and its tech industry. the reason that arab countries like the u.a.e. has much to do with economic opportunities. so what is left is morality. israel, a powerful, rich and secure nation, is ruling over nearly 5 million people without giving them political rights. this is an almost unique situation in a post-colonial world. israeli leaders can marshall valid excuses, the palestinian leadership have rejected serious offers in the past and divided an vacillating, but that doesn't change the reality that palestinians live in conditions that are demeaning and degrading. they are denied self determination which is now a universal right. over the last two decades, israel has moved toward a more and more intransigent position on the palestinian issue. the government today is far more extreme than previous right wing governments to began to sherron and all of which made

concessions for peace but it was founded by people who believe deeply that the new land should embody not just nationalism but also justice and morality. there are many in israel who argue passionately that it can find a way for israelis to have security and palestinians to have dignity. the only hope -- and right now it looks remote -- is that those forces will gain strength and one day lead the country to give the palestinians a state of their own. that would finally fulfill israel's true historical mission to be, in the words of isaiah, a light unto the nations. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column. let's get started. ♪

>> joining me now is the secretary of state antony blinken. welcome, mr. secretary. >> thanks, fareed. it is great to be with you. >> president biden says now that there is a cease-fire in -- between the israelis and palestinians, there is a significant opportunity for even more positive developments. a genuine opportunity if i'm quoting him correctly. and i'm wondering is there really, you have an israeli government that seems pretty unyielding and a palestinian authority led by an 85-year-old man who doesn't -- is too scared to hold elections for fear of what will happen. hamas controls gaza. is there really a prospect of some kind of movement towards a genuine political solution? >> fareed, i think there has to be. i think both sides are reminded that we have to find a way to break the cycle. because if we don't, it will repeat itself at great cost and at great human suffering on all sides.

look, we worked very hard with this intense but behind-the-scenes diplomacy to get to the cease-fire, and i think president biden made the judgment that we could be most effective in doing that. and ultimately after this intensive effort across the government, we got to where we wanted to be, which was to end the violence. but as the president said, i think it is incumbent upon all of us to make the turn to start to build something more positive. and what that means at heart is that palestinians and israelis alike have to know in their day and day out lives equal measures of opportunity, of security, of dignity. something that you touched on in your piece in "the washington post" this week. >> will you use as a template, the last peace plan put forward by the united states government, that is the peace plan shepherded by jared kushner?

>> look, i don't think we're at the -- in a place where getting to some kind of negotiation for what ultimately i think has to be the result, which is a two-state solution, is the first order of business. we have to start building back in concrete ways and offering some genuine hope, prospects, opportunities in the lives of people. and of course in the first instance, we've got to deal with the humanitarian situation which is grave. in gaza, we have to start to bring countries together to support reconstruction and development. and as we're doing that, we'll be reengaging with the palestinians and continuing our deep engagement with the israelis and try to put into condition that will allow us over time to advance a genuine peace process. but that is not the immediate order of business. we have a lot of work to do to get to that point. >> but does the united states government still endorse the outlines of that plan?

>> we're going to look at everything that has been done before. learn from that just as we have in other areas. and see what makes sense and what doesn't. but our focus right now relentlessly is on dealing with the humanitarian situation, starting to do reconstruction, rebuild and engage intensely with everyone, with palestinians, with israelis, with partners in the region. >> prime minister netanyahu says that he will form a national unit government but not with any israeli arabs in it. israeli arabs as you know make up 20% of the population of israel. is that a positive step? >> look, i don't do politics whether it is our politics or israeli politics. they have to make their own judgments, and a government will be formed eventually one way or another. we leave that to the israelis. but we'll work with obviously

the current israeli government, whatever government emerges from the current process, and it is really a decision for israelis to make, not us. >> but you've been very clear in being in favor of democracy and worrying about the decay of democracy in countries. is it a step forward for democracy for national government to explicitly on racial lines rule out 20% of its population? >> look, one thing that has been i think deeply disturbing about recent events has been the innercommunal violence, and that is something that we've not seen at least in recent years. and i believe and i hope that israelis of always persuasions will find ways that that doesn't happen again and hopefully that finds expression in politics and other governments, but these are decisions for israelis to make, not for us.

>> let me ask you while we're on middle east, mr. secretary, the biden administration, president biden when he was campaigning, said as soon as i become president, we'll rejoin the iran nuclear deal. the iranians said the same thing. we're now four months into the administration. nothing has happened. both sides said there seems to be something of a standoff. iran, it is meanwhile busy enriching the thing that people like you warned about when joe biden was campaigning. isn't this a failure of diplomacy. shouldn't you guys have been able to get back into the deal within a week or two? >> two things. first, the steps that iran is taking underscore the urgency of trying to get iran back into compliance with its obligation under the nuclear deal. a deal that stopped the dangerous aspects of the nuclear program, the prospects that they have could have material for a

nuclear weapon short order. we've had i think five rounds of conversations now of talks now indirectly in vienna and our team is going back to vienna in the coming days to pursue that. i think we've made progress in clarifying what each side needs to do to get into back into full compliance. the question that we don't have an answer to yet is whether iran, at the end of the day, is willing to do what is necessary to come back into compliance with the agreement. that is the proposition that we're testing. but it is getting i think through the rounds of discussions and talks, clearer and clearer what needs to happen. the question is, is iran prepared to do it. >> the iranians say that is not what is happening. the united states, the biden administration has moved the goalposts, that rather than talking about simply both sides getting back to the original deal, doing what was required to comply, the biden administration is now saying they want to talk about ballistic missiles and regional issues and extending the timeline. are you willing to go back to the original deal as it was because the iranians say they

are willing to get back to that tomorrow. >> fareed, we have been very clear, we're fully prepared to go back to the original deal as it was. that is our initial objective. we don't know if the iranians are. if we do, if we succeed in that, then we could use that as a foundation, both to look at how we could make the deal itself potentially longer and stronger, and also engage on these other issues whether it is iran's support for terrorism, proliferation, destabilizing support for different proxies throughout the middle east. all of that does need to be engaged in something we need to deal with. but we've been very clear from our perspective, the first step needs to be return to mutual compliance. that is what we're working on and that is where we still don't know if iran is willing to say yes. >> saudi arabia said that it now is willing to contemplate better relations with iran. is this a recognition by saudi arabia that its strategy so far

has not really worked? is it a sign that we could see a peace deal in yemen and an easing of tension over places like qatar and lebanon? >> there needs to be a peace deal in yemen. we're been working hard on that from day one. and i think saudi arabia is clearly indicated by some of the things that it has done that it now wants to move in that direction. so that is very positive. we need to get the houthis to come along and that in turn, i think, depends significantly on whether iran ready to make clear to houthis they need engage positively and resolve this war. so to the extent that there is a better relationship between saudi arabia and iran, that can produce or help produce positive results in ending of the some other conflicts. ending some of the proxy battles which are incredibly dangerous and destabilizing and have a real human toll. >> and do you see a shift in saudi foreign policy? >> look, my sense is that, again, on yemen in particular,

we've engaged intensely, we have a senior envoy doing this every single day. and the saudis have been trying to bring this war to an end. we need to see the same kind of response from the houthis who continue to hold out, and iran should use the influence it has to move them in that direction. >> and you just met with the russian foreign minister lavrov. and i was wondering -- this is a country that has been the acknowledgment engaged in what is possibly the largest cyber hack of america ever, amassed 100,000 troops on ukraine's border and still continues to oppose u.s. interests and acts as a spoiler on the world stage. did you feel like you saw any possibility of any of that changing? >> look, we had i think a constructive very business-like conversation over the course of nearly two hours. but president biden has been

very clear with president putin, and i repeated what president biden has said to president putin to foreign minister lavrov, and that is this, we would prefer to have a more stable predictable relationship with russia. we have lots of things going on around the world and work we're trying to do to make the lives of our citizens a little bit better. a more stable predictable relationship with them i think would be good for us and good for them and i argue good for the world. and there are clearly areas where it is in our mutual interest to cooperate, whether it is on afghanistan or strategic stability or arms control agreements, whether it is on dealing with climate change. but, equally clear, and the president has been very resolute on this, if russia continues to takes reckless and aggressive actions aimed at us or aimed at our allies or partners, we will respond. not for purposes of escalating but to defend our interest and

that is the nation of the conversation i had with lavrov. it is important to be clear about what you're doing, why you're doing it. and ultimately it is up to russia to decide whether it wants to have that more predictable stable relationship. we need to test the proposition. >> secretary of state antony blinken, thank you for coming on the show. >> thanks for having me, fareed. it is great to be with you. next on "gps," we have a terrific panel to talk more about what is actually going on in the middle east. na na na na ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... the world's first six-function multipro tailgate.

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the israeli defense forces say they struck more than 1,500 targets in gaza and that more than 4,000 rockets were fired at israel. but for now, the skies above israel and gaza are quiet. let me bring in today's panal, peter beinart is a political commentator and the author of "the bien flart notebook." dan senor is the author of "startup nation: the story of israel's economic miracle." nora air cot is the author of "justice for some and law and the question of palestine. let me start with you, dan senor, could you tell us what do you think was going on in terms of the violence, because it all seemed to come and almost all of it from gaza and directly by

hamas. >> i think that what hamas is doing in gaza -- keep in mind israel left gaza in 2005 and left it in fact tack to get to an effort where there is a two think state solution. and hamas took over in gaza and the entire play has been the politics of gaza against israel. we're seeing an internal play in politics where hamas is trying to marginalize and ultimately side lynn or misplace ramallah and really become the pan palestinian power player to be the voice of the gazans, the voice of the palestinians in the west bank and the voice of israeli-arab citizens living in israel. the hamas chart ser very clear on it front, that there is no space for jews in that region.

that israel must be wiped out. it is one thing when israel was at war with hamas and gaza and it was about issues about tensions over the israeli-gaza border. what's happening now is you have a government in gaza that is committed in its chatter to israel's complete destruction. and they're trying to wage that fight on behalf of all the power centers within the palestinian community. >> noura, what does this look like from the palestinian point of view. >> i want to correct the speaker before you that israel unilaterally withdrew from the gaza strip and maintained control of the water even under the ground and the caloric has maintained the occupying power. all of the leaders have said and made clear there will be no palestinian state. this wasn't a faith-building exercise. most significantly, it is important to remember that this is not israel's problem with hamas. this is israel's problem with

palestinians. for 73 years, israel has attempted to fragment palestinians, separate them from one another and undermine their national liberation movement which seeks to simply remain and belong on their land. by pointing to hamas, it is a red herring and obscuring that this is a liberation movement. this is a movement again colonialism and which wants to put others in their place and this is a movement to end apartheid which governs the life of all palestinians across gaza, the west bank, within israel and throughout diaspora. >> peter, this all began because of the eviction of palestinians in east jerusalem. explain the significance of that from your point of view. >> the significance is that

israel was created with an act of mass expulsion of palestinians, more than 700,000. israel had another mass expulsion in 1967. israel has continued to expel palestinians from their homes and from their homeland ever since it was created. so as you might imagine, the eviction of palestinians from homes cuts very deep for palestinians and it is critical to remember that palestinian like palestinian in gaza are not citizens of the country that controls their life. that means they are essentially powerless over the decisions that are made about them, and that is why palestinian could be evicted from homes in a way that could never be done to jews in israel because they don't have the most basic human rights, the right to be a citizen of the country in which you live. >> dan, i want to give you a quick -- i quick response and then we have to go to a break. >> okay, i just want to be clear. israeli governments, left, center and right have been committed to a two-state

solution. i agree that palestinians do not have the rights they do have. that is why they need their own states that is why leaders from 1993 to 2000 to 2008 have been consistently trying to provide a process that would give palestinians their own -- withdrawing from gaza was a june natural action with the hope it would be on a path to give palestinians their own sovereign state. the palestinian leadership hamas will not take yes for an answer. >> we're going to get back to all of this in a moment. you can always spot a first time gain flings user. not all 5g networks are created equal. ♪ t-mobile. america's largest, fastest, most reliable 5g network. you need an ecolab scientific clean here.

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and we are back with peter beinart, dan senor and noura erakat.

noura, let me ask you, picking up on what dan senor said, i think it would generally be there are many people who believe that the palestinian cause is just, but that its leadership has not been particularly wise. it hasn't negotiated seriously going back to, say, the 2000 deal between arafat and the israelis. how would you respond to that? >> i would respond that no matter what leadership we've had, israeli has considered its talking point that it has no negotiating partner. i would emphasize to the audience we remain a stateless people without an army or even an airport and continue to struggle inder apartheid and occupation despite all odds. it is a lot to ask of us to have robust leaders when they are exiled and impositions because the power deferential is real. we are under apartheid.

i want to emphasize into the two-state solution is long dead and used as a veneer to continue this violence. the u.s. provides israel with $3.8 billion dollars a year and has issued 43 security council vetoes to impede an international resolution to this issue, to the palestinian question as well as to protect israel from any accountability. if you really want to see some just outcome, must place sanctions on israel and hold them to account and must support palestinians and all people could become involved through participating in boycott and sanctions which is a robust nonviolent movement for all of those preaching to palestinians that they have to be nonviolent. we have been. they're not paying attention. we have thousands of gandis being killed every day because of this ob obs nat refusal.

>> peter, let me ask you about what do you think, whether there is a shift in israel or among american jews? and you've just written a powerful, whether people agree with it or not, an article for refugee return. it is really worth reading as i said, whatever anyone thinks about it. "the new yorker" has done a profile on you on the base of it. are sensing there is a shift in public opinion? >> there is a shift in public opinion in the united states including among younger american jews because there is a struggle americans are engaged in here between a country with ae quality under the law for all people and a vision of a country that has a seerries of hair arkys based on white supremacy.

as painful for it is to recognize as jews there is a similar obstruction of equality under the law and a vision of jewish supremacy in which jews have rights that palestinians don't have. for me as a practicing jew, that's a desecration of the fundmentable belief that all people have infinite value in the eyes of god and that includes palestinians. >> dan, i want to give you the chance to respond. >> it is important to make clear in which his piece, he said he's against the existence of a jewish state. so peter doesn't support the existence of a jewish state. newer rah has been very outspoken that israel has no right to defend against attacks in any part of israel. so rockets are flying from gaza

into towns like ashton and other parts of the country that were never disputed. when we talk about a two state solution going back to 1967 borders, it was always assumed that those towns would never be part of a future palestinian state. what she's saying is it is all up for grabs now. we're no longer debating 1967 borders, as she's been clear, we're fending 1948, a right to an independent sovereign state peter says we shouldn't have at all anyway. we should be honest what we're talking about. but peter and noura and the people they speak for, including the hamas charter, said there is no space for a jewish state. if we want to have a discussion about palestinian rights to self-determination, which i support which the overwhelming majority of israelis support, thet let's do a jewish state and a palestinian state and you can't do it as noura and peter say that the jewish people should not have their own independent state.

>> peter, i'll give you 20 seconds to in favor of one state for jews and palestinians. >> with all due respect -- >> -- has been very good for jews around the world. >> all right. we are going to have to get back to this issue again because it is not going away but i thank you all for a serious conversation. next on "gps," the pandemic accelerated america's ongoing reckoning with capitalism. when will that end? that story when we come back. up to one million dollars. that's how much university of phoenix is committing to create 400 scholarships this month alone. because we believe everybody deserves a chance. see what scholarships you may qualify for at phoenix.edu

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isn't just new regulations and taxes. zachary karabell described an older financial partnership model that came from the brown brothers harriman in which banks bet with their old money and emphasized not more and more and more, but enough. it is all in his new book "inside money, brown brothers harriman and the american way of power." so we're in the midst of a big debate about the future of capitalism and there are people in washington who want to change it by regulating and taxing it. the message of your book it seems to me is there is something much deeper that needs to change, which is the fundamental attitude of capitalism's elites. >> that is absolutely true. one thing i glean from doing this book, but probably thought about before, was that a lot what we have now in terms of the capitalism of more, more, more,

always more, is not the capitalism that we've always had and that is not a product of a massive regulatory state 150 years ago. it is a product of a different culture and a different attitude toward where capitalism fits within the social framework. that is part of a latis of private good and public good and that elites at an earlier point were more cognizant of the fact they had to attend to that public good and pursuing more, their own more, risks beggaring the commons in a way that would ultimately produce less for them and the collective. >> explain how brown brothers exemplifies this. at the heart of it, it seems to me, the old model of finance that you describe so well in the book, fundamentally depended upon people betting with their own money rather than other people's money.

>> yeah, and that is exactly -- it is the other people's money phenomenon. so all of the companies, the financial firms that we know now that are famous and infamous, the lehman brothers and the goldman sachs, they all went public in the '70s and into the early '90s. so the private partnerships which were predominated which were -- every deal they knew they could lose their own money, not other people's money. as many people have said, we live in a world now where gains have been privatized, but risk goes to the public. so you get bailed out by the federal reserve or by the government, but if you make a huge amount of money, you get all of that, other than what you pay in taxes. that wasn't the predominant model before. it meant that those cultures had to know, every night when they went to bed, you better be able to wake up knowing that the world might have changed negatively.

that level of individual risk has been removed from the system. and so people do what they're going to do without the fear if that deal goes wrong, i'm not just going to have egg on my face reputationally, i might lose my house, i might lose my income. >> i want to ask you about another one of your -- of the issues you've written a lot about which is front and center now. we're taking on a huge amount of debt with spending. the deficits are the really larger than at any point since world war ii. you have for a long time, when this happened after the global financial crisis, you were saying basically stop worrying, really deficits don't matter. is that fair, and if so explain. >> right. i think it is that deficits don't matter at the point at which we are spending. clearly there is a point at which the load of debt would be unsustainable. i just think that that load is multiple times greater than the current amount. and i think that is where people have kind of misunderstood the amount of debt with the cost of debt.

so if interest rates are 10% and you take on a billion dollars of debt, you're paying $100 million in interest a year. if the cost of capital is 1.2% it is $12 million. and that sort of means the amount of money you borrow is entirely related to the amount of interest that you pay on it. the cost of that debt. same thing when you buy a house, right. people yes they think about the cost of their house. but almost nobody buys a house. they get a mortgage that allows them to live if the house and the cost of that house for them is how much money they have to spend monthly to service that mortgage. and i think that should always now be the criteria. >> zack karabell, always a pleasure to talk to you, and the book is terrific. i see it behind you there. "inside money, brown brothers harriman and the american way of power." next on gps, russia wants to dominate the arctic, especially

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. and now for the last look. for their first face to face meeting secretary of state antony blinken and russian foreign minister sergey lavrov chose to sit down, not in moscow or in washington, but in rekuvic, south of the arctic circle, a fitting location as the arctic itself may prove to be one of the biggest areas of disagreement between the two cold war rivals. before this week's meeting the two men traded barbs and accusations about it in the press lavrov -- it's long been well-known to everyone that this is our territory, this is our land. and blinken said russia was

making illegal maritime claims, and warned moscow not to militarize the region. on that note it may be too late. in recent years russia has been busily modernizing and growing a network of military bases on its arctic coastline. along with deployment of new high tech weapons that amounts to a military buildup in the region. also high on the western list of grievances, moscow claims its territory in the arctic extends beyond its maritime borders and into international waters. so why is there all of this wrangling and posturing about an area you may think of as an empty frozen wasteland? because it's not entirely frozen anymore, as global temperatures rise due to climate change, more and more of the arctic is becoming navigable for longer and longer periods of the year. russia with the world's largest

arctic coastline wants to take full advantage. it wants to assert control over who could become a major shipping route along its northern coast, linking to europe. in theory cor go could travel between the two continents twice as fast this way as it does now when it passes through the suez canal. this southern sea route is a potential game changing revenue stream for export-dependent russia. it could ship its oil and natural gas directly to europe and asia without having to rely on pipelines. its territorial claims could also allow it to tap into the vast resource of natural gas believed to lie under the previously impenetrable arctic ice. according to the u.s., russia has already begun to demand that foreign vessels traveling the route use russian pilots, and even that they ask permission to sail through what are really international waters, threatening to use force against ships that refuse to comply.

by former secretary of state mike mom pay owe's own admission the u.s. is late to the party encountering russia's assertiveness and that balancing act is a tricky one. as the ice that acted as a natural barrier protecting russia's arctic coast melts russia is concerned it will become more open to attack. that means the militarization of the region that is already setting off alarm bells in washington is likely to continue as the sea ice recedes. secretary blinken's meeting with lavrov and his five-day stay in the region shows that many in washington are now taking this matter very seriously. they know this could become one of america's biggest foreign policy headaches. thanks for all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. if you miss a show go to cnn.com/fareed -- ♪ i see it ♪

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right now, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene doubling down on a controversial comment she made comparing masks to the holocaust. plus, a house party gets out of control, a night of violence in cities across the country. and a 62 mile trek ends in tragedy, find out what led to the sudden deaths of 21 people. hello, everyone, thank you for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield. we begin this hour with growing outrage over a lawmaker comparing mask mandates to the horrors of the