this is "gps", the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world, i'm fareed zakaria. today on the the show, a tour of the world with the former british prime minister gordon brown. we'll talk about the g-7 meeting in his nation. the biden presidency, russia,

china and more. >> the governments have to got to be far more aware of the variety and the range of risks they now face. >> and -- as israel's netanyahu era seems to be coming to a close for now, we'll take a look at what his leadership has meant for israel, the palestinians and the region and the world. i have two distinguished commentators from israel to discuss. also the summer season has officially begun and that means hamburgers, hot dogs and chicken barbecues. ezra klein tells us all we ought to think twice before eating meat for ourselves and for the sake of the planet and he has a solution. but first, here is "my take."

in 2017, a former goldman sacks banker launched a dating app call the hater designed to match people according to shared dislikes. it didn't last long. that doesn't bode well for the coalition set to form a new israeli government since it seems unified by little more than a shared hatred for netanyahu. it is surely the strangest coalition in modern political history comprising parties to the right of netanyahu and to the center and the left and to the first time one representing israeli abars. could such a motley crew stay together. it is possible. the parties have been brought together for more than just a personal dislike of bibi. remember, netanyahu is under indictment for three cases of corruption, prosecuted by his own hand-picked attorney

general. elements of the right in israel that had long been allied with bibi broke with him because they wore worried where he was taking democracy. but the left in the coalition is just not strong enough and overall the latest elections actually increase the strength of the far right. religious fundamentalists and settlers are now more strongly represented in the knesset than ever before. there is a power here with the 2020 elections in the united states. while they represented a repudiation of donald trump after most president's win re-election, they are did not represent a repudiation of trumpism. the republican party gained seats in the house of representatives. politico said it was abysmal, despite tens of millions of

dollars liberals spent to flip the legislatures in arizona, florida, north carolina and texas, those bodies remain firmly under gop control and as a result republicans have a lob sided advantage in redistricting which will help the party maintain power for the next decade. poll you'llists have governed badly almost everywhere else in power but the movement have not suffered resounding defeat. italy has mario draggyba he accident have a mandate from voters. ae manual macron who seems to be thriving have taken political beatings. trudeau's approval rating is down to 41 percent and his disapproval is at 55%. polls in france show a tight race between macron and the far right candidate marine le pen in the upcoming election. it is important that the left

seriously examine this question. too many in it believe donald trump's election was a fluke, that he was a celebrity and he found ways to manipulate the media. some of that may be true. but how do you explain the much bigger phenomenon. the fact that represent the new realities of politics, arise in the importance of cultural identity, opposition to immigration, discomfort with social liberalism and a deep class resentment toward educated elites. consider that many people in the united states and parts of europe seem determined not to take a vaccine against a life-threatening disease because they just don't trust the medical and governmental elites in their societies. what is the best way to handle the populous right? probably joe biden's way. reach out to work with them but don't let that stop you from

pushing forward big programs that help people and show that you could accomplish big things. hope that your actions will speak louder than their noisy words. but biden's greatest strength is maybe what he's not doing. he's not talking about dr. seuss books or the golden globes, he's generally steering clear of the many episodes in the culture wars. he's taken a slow and moderate approach to immigration reform knowing that the issue could easily trigger a backlash. when vox asked james carville about biden's 100 days e remarked that the best quality was against something that he waepts. he was not into faculty lounge politics meaning framing language that is alienating to many. large parts of the country view us as an arrogant party and a lot gets past through the

filter. that is a real thing and it is damaged to the party brand. the left is basking in its recent victories from america to israel. but if they don't learn the correct lessons and over play their hand, that success could prove very temporary. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my washington post column this week. and let's get started. ♪ >> want to bring in now the former british prime minister gordon brown. the author of a new book "seven ways to change the world." welcome. >> and good to talk to you, fareed. >> let me ask you to begin with, to think about the biggest difference between this crisis of the pandemic, and the one that took place when you were

prime minister of great britain, the '07, '08, '09 financial crisis. what is different is that that time the world came together and really it was remarkable cooperation to deal with the financial crisis. this time, it is almost splintered the world. why do you think that is? >> you know, when i was asked in 2008 and '90 when was the message from the world recession and people said well it is the economy stupid and i said, no it is that global problems need global solutions and what we've seen in the last ten years unfortunately is the breakdown of international cooperation. first we have this protective nationalism which was immigration and border controls, building walls and tariffs and everything else, and then we saw america first, china first, india first and russia first and

my tried first and sought to blame other people for what was wrong. so if the first year of this covid crisis, there has been very little international cooperation at the top. there has been great scientific and medical cooperation, but not political cooperation. and i think we're now entering the testing time. this week we'll see the g-7 meet, soon we'll have the g-20. then we'll have top 26, the environmental conference. now all of these events will test us. is international cooperation going to be restored or are we still in this world where nationalism and protectionism and isolationism are domib ating and that is the question that the leader of the g-7 have to answer this question. >> now a lot of people credit you with your leadership in that period of the global financial crisis. but i think it is fair to say that these leaders face a more difficult challenge because there is, as you say, a wave of

populism and nationalism that have begun. what would you do -- you know what will happen if there is a perception that joe biden or boris johnson are sending vaccines abroad and there are people criticizing them and saying these should stay home, there is people saying we're too dependent on global supply chains and they need to be brought back home. how do you convince people that more global cooperation is in their best interests? >> i think we have to start with the disease and with vaccination. we've got a world that is really divided between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. and to some extent the international organizations like the g-7 will decide who lives and is vaccinated and who dies and if they are denied vaccination. so only 2% of sub saw har an have been vaccinated and this

divide could not continue and the reason that i think boris johnson and joe biden could make the case to the world for cooperation that nobody is safe until everybody is safe. this is not over until it is over everywhere and that is why if the disease is not contained and it spreads and it mutates, it will come back to haunt us all witha any variant or mutation and that is why i think for these medical reasons we've got to cooperate [ technical difficulties ] and start economic activity to i she you have to start with a victory over disease and we have the science and the medicine but not the political will to evacuate the rest of the world.

>> what do you see -- how long do you see this taking? are we talking about two years before we are kind of really back to normal international travel, international trade, supply chains restored? >> yeah, i think a lot of this depends on how quickly we vaccinated the world and how quickly we could contain the disease and it is clear that the lack of cooperation over the last few months has made it possible for this disease to spread and while we've had a vaccination for six months, it is not got to the purest countries in the world so that is has got to be done. when we dealt with the financial recession in 2009 we have an economic problem and this is a economic and a health problem but the start of the answer is dealing with the health problem and i think it is still true now as it was a year ago that if we can't get the disease under control in all parts of the world then everybody will remain

afraid and until no one is afraid and that the really something that could last a long time if we don't vaccinate in 2021 and we have to push it in through 2022 and later on that. >> next on "gps", gordon brown on how to trackle russia and china. >> we cannot support the policies that they're embracing and i think it is clear that economic sanctions have to be considered. being apart during life's biggest moments has been hard. but with total wireless, you can still make those moments happen. get the newest, fastest devices

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from the lab in wuhan, the cover-up from the chinese government, the reluctant to allow real inquiries. in that context, is it going to be possible to go forward? how should we deal with china? >> well, you've written about this, fareed, and i have book "seven ways to change our world" and how you could put china and u.s. cooperation on to a basis that avoids the risk that i feel that is a real risk of having one world but two systems so i think you have to find the areas where we can cooperate and admit there are areas where we can't cooperate but i think it is important on climate change, on the growth of the world economy, and on other issues which we could go through that there is is this some cooperation and we don't thwart the chance of getting progress on some issues even if there is a huge disagreement on many issues and i think most people would take

that view. i'm concerned about human rights and also concerned about technology and what is happening to technology, hong kong is a difficult issue. but i do think where we could cooperate we've got to make an effort to cooperate because otherwise the breakdown in the world will be very big and we will end up with what i fear is a possibility, you have an imf but an if asian monetary fund but a world bank but an asian world bank and the dollar competing with the chinese currency and that is not the basis the world moving forward. >> what about the other great democracy, russia. president biden has put more sanctions on it. do you think that is appropriate? do you think nord stream should be canceled? are we being tough enough on russia or are we being too tough? >> well i think two happens

happened in the last 20 years. run, russia was humiliated at the right moment and secondly russia has taken this aggressive chauvinistic is lation standard in relation to the west and we've syrian what happened in belarus with the support of russia. you have a dictator with no interest in democracy who is trying to close down open skies in curtailing press freedom. so we have got to speak out on these issues and make it clear to russia we cannot support the policies they are embracing and i think it is clear that economic sanctions have to be considered and be extended if necessary if we're going to bring russia to its senses. when i was prime minister on the streets of london, we had someone assassinated by the russian secret police. and when this is happening on the streets of our democracies, we've got to speak out. and of course when it happened

in belarus, that we have the arrest of a journalist for no other reason than he's a opposition spokesperson, that is not acceptable and we have to keep speaking out on these issues. >> i notice something when preparing for this interview, you 12 years ago as prime minister set up the first cybersecurity unit in britain. i'm wondering, what do you think of the situation where in the director of the fbi is talking about hundreds and hundreds of cyberattacks, about ransomware. it feels like we're entering a new wild west, or age of piracy or fueled or assisted by the raise of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies that make these transactions possible. how should we think about this, what should we do? >> well, you know, i think it as

a huge contrast. we still have the space station up there until 2025. and even in the depth of the cold war, wep seemed to find a basis in which we could cooperate when it really mattered and so we ended the space race. now woof got to take similar action to try to bring to head some of the issues about the cybersecurity of our countries. what we did when i was in government is we were very aware that the number of risks that a country faced and the variety of the risks were widening. so pandemics was of course one of them that we were looking at at the time. but also cybersecurity. and i think governments have got to be far more aware of the variety and the range of risks that they now face and they've got to look and see if we have some international negotiation. all of the countries have got an interest in their own security as well as perhaps an interest that if it is not checked, in

trying to invade other people's security, we have to find a way to talk about issues and get some of them sorted out and where possible to get international agreements to bring some of what is happening in cyber areas but also in space under control. >> should bitcoin be regulated or banned? >> it is going to have to be regulated if it is going to survive. look, central banks are on to this. the european central bank and the fed, the bank of england, and the chinese central bank is looking at what it could do in this area but these are areas where you have to have regulation. >> gordon brown, always a pleasure to talk to you. your book is "seven ways to change the world," terrific read and highly intelligence. thank you, sir. >> thank you. we'll be back in a moment to go in depth on the high political drama unfolding in israel. ♪

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just 38 minutes before his deadline on wednesday, the israeli centrist politician la fitte informed the president rubin ref lynn that he would be able to cobble together a coalition and form a government and thus end the reign of netanyahu. as i said at the start of the show, this group of parties from across the political spectrum seems united in one thing, a dislike of the sitting prime minister. so, what to expect next. joining me are anshell feffer and lucy aharrish. the author of "bibi the

turbulent crimes of netanyahu" and lucy is a journalist. and you are also of arab origin. do you think it means a lot that for the first time israeli arabs are part of this coalition? >> well, we are talking fareed about a historic moment in the israeli-arab community and society concerning the political arena in israel. this is historic because for the first time in a long time the arab vote actually means something. for a long, long time we could see that in the last few years, especially in the last five years where we saw insight against the arab society and against the arab parties in israel, especially coming from netanyahu, we were able to see big consignment against the

votes of the arabs and for the first time we see that actually when an arab citizen is going to vote, his vote mines something. his vote basically is meaning something concerning taking -- taking the decisions and the decision-making and the coalition and being part of a israeli coalition, it is a huge thing. >> anshell, let me ask you about the future of the coalition because it does seem so bound together simply by the desire to not let bibi have another term. how will it stay in power and is the key that it doesn't do anything on the many issues that it assumes that people within it disagree on, mainly the palestinians. it seems as though any movement on the palestinian issue and the coalition falls apart. >> well, it is a very good question, fareed. obviously, this coalition has a

joint purpose and that is replacing netanyahu. that is why this number eight different party from right, center and left and the conservative party are joining to to replace netanyahu. once that happens, assuming it happens because netanyahu is fighting this every inch of the way, but assuming they get sworn in and they're in office, once they've achieved that joint purpose, what next? so first of all, they will still happen to be around. the leader of the opposition and and he certainly wants to get back in. he'll be planning a comeback and the fact that he's still around will help them to keep together because they won't -- try to keep their own arguments to a minimum so not to get netanyahu an opening to coming back. and i think after 12 years in which netanyahu has been the

focal point of everything hanning in israeli politics, everything has been about him and so much of policy and the issues have been warped by his own personal struggles. i think that now politicians will have an opportunity just to get about the business of government without this character netanyahu dominating the agenda. i think that they'll take this opportunity even though they have significant differences between them in ideology and party i think they'll take this opportunity to get down to running the country and a stable government, that is in itself is an achievement and i think they could stick at for longer than some of us are expecting them to do. >> lucy, let me ask you about the violence that just took place before the cease-fire in gaza. one of the things many commentators pointed out was that for the first time the violence spilled over into

israel proper and in the sense that there were clashed between israeli arabs, israeli citizens of arab origin and israeli jews, do you think that is significant and does that suggest a rising radicalization, activism on the part of the israeli arians on the part of issue. >> what happened at the last round of war, let's call it or operation in the gaza strip that spilled over to israel, to israeli arabs, it is more complicated than it looks and i think that we don't have two hours to speak about this situation unfortunately. but the situation of israel and the arabs in israel is more complicated. we're talking about for the last five years even more that the israeli arab society is suffering from a very complicated situation concerning tribal violence that occurred in arab villages. the israeli arab society was

asking, basically begging the israeli government, to take care to take out the weapon that was held by some criminal gangs, living in criminal arab gangs living in israeli air villages, begging the israeli government to take care of it and saying that eventually it won't end up only happening in israeli villages. it is very easy to tell you, okay, of course israeli palestinians or arabs living in israel, they were angry about what is happening in gaza but for complicated. we're talking about domestic issues about the israeli arab society that we're not taking care of, being mixed up with the situation happening with the palestinians in the gaza strip. so, you know, it is not black and white like you know, fareed.

here in israel, it is always one plus one is never two. >> anshell, you wrote that this new coalition does not just shatter the bibi myth but it actually shatters a lot of myths that american jews have. explain what you mean. >> american jews have been used to seeing netanyahu for almost four decades now on their screen as mr. israel. from 1982 when he became israel's deputy ambassador in washington and then in new york and ever since he's been the face, the mouth piece of israel, the voice of israel, you name it and he's become synonymous with israel for so many different groups of americans. and what i wrote in my -- in my column today, a lot of representatives for israel,

israeli supporters, this is a moment when they're happy to see netanyahu to go because they don't want netanyahu to be the person representing israel. he's become a symbol of so much which is toxic and negative about israel, he has had his successes, they can't be denied but he really has become a global bogey and i think it is a good thing for italy he's no longer -- assuming that the new coalition is sworn in, it is a good to have new faces to show to the world. >> anshell and lucy, thank you for helping us try to understand the complicating situation. >> thank you, fareed. >> thanks, fareed. >> next on "gps", ezra klein joins me to explain why we need a moon shot from people who like meat. >> i'm not here to tell anybody it is not delicious but what it is doing to the planet, to the animals and to our own pandemic

and antibiotic risk is something that should worry all of us.

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one of the fanciest, highest rates most thee attic rl and delicious restaurants in manhattan made a stunning announcement last month. they announced after a long closure due to the pandemic, it would reopen with an entirely pham free plant-based menu. it is part of a larger trend that seems to be slowly gathering more and more steam. people are seeing the light as i have that eating animal products cannot only be bad for you, it could be bad for the planet. i'm not a vegetarian yet, but working my way to having more vegetables and less meat. my next guess said this trend needs to speed up. in "the new york times," ezra klein said we need a moon shot for meatless meat.

welcome to the show. >> thank you. good to be here. >> so tell us about your journey, because you used to be a delighted and voracious meat eater. you post pictures of hamburgers on your instagram. what happened? >> you know, i had known that the way we treat animals on factory farms wasn't something that i morally could support and i could just push it out of the my mind and that is what i did for many years. but i love meat. i just put that on the instagram. i chased after fancy restaurants and then in my 20s, i began going for vegetarian and i went back and forth and then for a long time i was vegan and would you let myself have three burgers a month because i love burgers and not because it is interest, and this is part of what i think should happen, people like meat, i'm not here to tell anybody it is not delicious. but what it is doing to the planet, what it is going to the animals and our pandemic and

antibiotic risk is something that should worry all of us. >> so let's talk about this. something in the range of 80 billion animals are slaughtered every year for meat. what do we know about the suffering and the climate effects? >> yeah, that is not just land animals, but 80 billion land animals slaughters, most of them chicken. it is not possible to raise and concentrate and pack together animals at any other time because we didn't have the technology. the animals we eat are not animals that are bred to grow really quickly. we pump them full of antibiotics in these farming operations and i want to say if you're a farmer or eating regeneratively raised meat, that is fine. that is not something i'm all that concerned about. but most of us eat meat from industrial agriculture and has

tremendous consequences and because viruses mutate and evolve in these packed together factory farms and they could jump to human and we need so many antibiotics and they stop working on us and we get antibiotic resistant diseases. so there is a lot of animal suffering but stacked on top of that is human suffering too. >> what is the climate risk. half of all of the habitable land is used for agriculture. >> most of that is used for animal agriculture. and just to take one step further, the reason is matters is what is often happening here is your clear-cutting forest, they pull carbon out of the air and they keep it in the ground and clear-cutting that and putting cows there, it is happening all over the amazon and then the cows for different reasons are unbelievably producer of greenhouse gases,

methane. so you're taking a natural part of the eco resource and unplacing it with an unnatural one that submits a powerful methane gas and that is happening on a scale that is almost melts the human mind to try to imagine. >> and people often ask what could i do personally about climate change and would you say if you do the math, probably the thing any single human being could do that would matter the most would be to eat less meat. >> that is absolutely true. and i want to be really clear because people did not go and stay vegan. so whatever my eating habits are, it is not what i'm recommending to everybody. it would be profound it everybody ate half as much meat. it is profound if everybody ate 30% less meat. the single thing is to remove red meat from their diet but the

people do that and eat more chicken an that is worse for the animals themselves because chickens are -- we kill more of them. a family will eat a cow over a course of a year and a chicken is treated worse than cows so we could replace meat in the diet without needing so many animals being involved. >> and you find out that the column that you wrote about this, american business has actually been at the forefront of coming up with substitutes that taste a lot like meat but are plant based? >> yeah, this is a remarkable change in the last ten years. you have toe fercy and then you have impossible foods and beyond meat and they're making these new plant and some cases cell based chickens that taste remarkably good. so it is possible on fancy menus all over the country, if you go

to burger king you get fort worth impossible whopper. you have a trouble tasting the difference. you could get a burger at the finest restaurant, but in terms of normal food it works well and this is the very beginning of the industry and that is the key in my column because america already has a leadership position, if we accelerate that we could see our economic value in this multiplied over the coming years an the gains could be multiplied over the next couple of years just like put money behind renewable energy, we could create a better technology that is cleaner and better for the planet and for us and not that large of an investment. >> ezra klein, thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps", spain and morocco practically touch at the entrance to the mediterranean

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and now for the last look. if you want to understand the continuing appeal of populism and much of the western world, let me take you to the little known land border between morocco and the small spanish enclave of certa, no north africa. the population 84,000 is part of spain, and it is also part of the european union and therefore crossing is seen by migrants as an opportunity to make it into europe. without risking a dangerous crossing off the mediterranean. normally the barrier that separates both countries is watched over by more acan authorities because of an agreement between the two

nations. but the last few months everything changed. back in april spain agreed to temporarily take in a separatist leader from the western sahara for medical treatment. morocco controls that region and so in may they decided to show displeasure by allowing 8,000 migrant news tiny sota over just a few days. then the spanish military was called in and thousands of the migrants were escorted back across the border. but the political damage was done as pardo explains in foreign policy, the incident has moved it back to the forefront of spanish politics and the far right is seizing the moment. the anti-immigration party vox is a key player has called what happened at sota an invasion and demanded the permanent militarization of the border. in a pattern familiar for many parts of the world, parda knows that the vox party have led the

mainstream right to take on a more populous stance potentially shifting all of spanish politics to the right. when spain holds the next national elections, we may look back at the incident as the moment that propelled the far right to national prominent there. but there is another crucial takeaway. deals to keep migrants from european shores such as the one spain struck with morocco or the e.u. has made with turkey, do not make immigration go away but this do give the king of morocco or erdogan, and they have not hesitated to use it. as the "new york times" pointed out, spain approved a $37 million aid package to morocco just hours after the migrants started flooding into soto. erdogan has more than once threaten to open the door after a 2016 deal with the e.u. to hold them within his country.

after the e.u. declined to support turkey's military foray into northern syria, he made good on his threat. in 2020 turkey led thousands of migrants through to turkey's border with greece triggering a humanitarian crisis. researchers have taken to calling the phenomenon the weaponization of immigration. immigration is a complex issue and it has no easy fixes but for as long as the plan remains to sweep it under the rug, to keep migrants out of europe rather than devising a more permanent solution, this migtory flows will hang over the european union and when it comes to play populists like vox will be waiting to pounce. thanks for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week.

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i'm brian stelter live in new york. and this is "reliable sources." where we examine the story behind the story. and figure out what is reliable. this hour, a special interview with the white house press secretary jen psaki. she has answered about how they tries to make sure the briefing room does not become a forum for propaganda. interesting insights in an interview coming up. plus as d.c. debates infrastructure spending, what about reporters? the faces of