is it necessarily racist? i'm michael smerconish in philadelphia. the reason the controversy about rachel nichols and maria taylor at espn received so much attention this week is because the issues transcend the sports cable outlet and offer a window into so many of our workplaces. in case you missed the kerfuffle, it's a core about one employee, nichols, thinking she was denied a gig or opportunity in favor of another, taylor, and that race somehow played a factor. it raises an interesting question, namely, is it necessarily racist when a white employee questions the hiring or elevation of a minority colleague. a quick recap of the facts. it was july 2020, so, a years ago that initianicole has a conversation with two.

and nichols seized the opportunity to ask for personal career advice. she wanted to know how to respond to espn's decision to have the nba final coverage hosted by her colleague, taylor who is black, even though nichols had been contractually promised that gig. unbeknownst to her, because of the equipment in her room the call she thought was private and went to the espn headquarters and somebody saw it and recorded it within hours and reached espn brass. by the way, that's the most egregious part of this story that someone sought to record a private conversation without her consent. now it's in the public domain. and here's what she said caused a ruckus. >> i wish maria taylor all the success in the world. she covers football. she covers basketball. if you need to give her more things to do because you are

feeling pressure about your crappy long time record on diversity, which by the way i myself know personally from the female side of it, go for it. >> there's a lot of online debate about nichols' remark perhaps best illustrated by the one brief exchanges in the comments section that i saw in "the washington post." one person said there's no racism here. point it out to me, what did rachel say that was racist. the response? the response was this. she said that taylor got the assignment because of espn's diversity efforts, the pressure they are feeling. they attributed taylor's success merely to the color of her skin. and that is racism. nichols has since apologized on air. espn then released a statement to the "the new york times" saying, quote, a diverse group of executives thoroughly and fairly considered all of the facts related to the incident and then addressed the situation appropriately. we're proud of the coverage we continue to produce. and our focus will remain on

maria, rachel and the rest of the talented team collectively serving nba fans. how could nichols have framed the issue without being subjected to the charge of racism? or is that impossible in today's climate? i want to know what you think. go to my website. this is this week's survey question at smerconish.com, were rachel nichols' comments regarding maria taylor justified or were they inappropriate? joining me now is don peebles, he's the founder and chair of the peebles multiventure black in the u.s. he served on the national finance committee of president obama and also is the former chair of the congressional black caucus. and if that's not enough, he is also the author of the best-selling book "the peebles principles." don, great to have you back. when you first heard what rachel

nichols had said, what ran through your mind? >> first, i thought invasion of privacy. she did not expect her conversation to be overheard. she was expressing frustration over a lost opportunity that she thought she deserved. the fact that was aired i believe is very inappropriate. that's the first thing that happened. the second thing that came to mind, the question about what many african americans including my company and i experience is that people make a presumption because the pendulum is swinging to become much more equalized in america. that somehow african americans get their opportunity mainly or primarily because of their race and the desire to create a more equitable society. and that marginalizes us as business people and professionals. so those two things. and both, one is clear-cut and one is a little more complicated. >> yes, i agree.

and subject to a lot of different interpretation. for what it's worth, what i heard was rachel nichols saying, hey, i get it, espn has a poor track record on diversity. and i myself as a female have been victimized by it. don't let this now come at my expense. >> i agree. i think exactly what she said, that she already had a contractual opportunity to perform these services and air during these segments and it was taken away from her. i think she could have stopped there. again, she did not think that she was being recorded. and she was exploring -- it appears to me she was exploring why. by the way, all of us express frustration in the privacy of our home or in private conversation, and we don't expect them to be aired. things are said about our relatives, our spouses, et cetera, that we would never expect to be aired. i think that's one element here. the fact that we're talking about his private conversation is certainly an invasion of her

privacy. but gives illumination to some of the things that african americans, especially black women, who have double exposure to bias are sensitive to. >> this was a hot talker as you can imagine on radio. my own program this week, we got into it in-depth. and i heard from a number of african american callers expressing this viewpoint. the viewpoint of, yeah, i get it, this is what goes on when the doors are closed, right? that you'll get some white folks who will pay lip service to the notion of advancement of people of color, but when they're speaking among themselves, this is the real deal. >> yeah, but that wasn't the case here. i mean, the reality here is -- i mean, anybody who is competing in a very highly desirable profession or industry is going to be extremely competitive. and they're going to fight for their opportunities. and the idea that we should expect people to give up the opportunities that they worked hard to earn those

opportunities, for the sake of a more equitable society, i think it's more incumbent on espn, and other companies, to create broader opportunities for diverse employees. and not at the expense of white sco employees. we're going to continue have this divided nation in our divided society. the idea that we got to expand opportunities and give people of color and give women an opportunity to develop skill set and an opportunity to get. so espn probably could have done this a lot better by simply expanding some opportunities and handling this last year. and not letting it percolate for a year. >> rachel nichols dealt with this on camera. here's what she had to say. >> so, the first thing they teach you in journalism school is don't be the story. and i don't plan to break that rule today or distract from a fantastic finals but i also don't want to let this moment pass without saying how much i

respect, how much i value our colleagues here at espn. how deeply, deeply sorry i am for disappointing those i hurt, particularly maria taylor. and how grateful i am to be part of this outstanding team. >> i found that to be a pretty appropriate response. i'll be curious to hear what you think. i'm also wondering how will she be treated and regarded by players going forward. will there be any move afoot that might shun her? >> by the way, apology accepted. in lies the double standard, the fact that we're still talking about it when she already apologized. if you look at some of the conduct that would be, you know, overtly unacceptable by people on the air who are men, i think she's judged differently. but i think case closed. she was apologetic. she made a mistake, shouldn't define her. but it should not helet espn of the hook for creating this kind of environment to where you're

pitting two women against each other, as opposed to expanding opportunities. there's plenty of opportunities at espn to go around. and they need to expand more of those to women. and i think that's the solution here. >> hey, quick final comment, the guy who dodged a figurative bullet i think is adam mendelson. kathryn, quickly put up on the screen, on any other day, we'd probably be talking about an adviser to lebron james, i don't know, i'm exhausted. between me too and black lives matter, i got nothing left. quick comment from you, don? >> i find that offensive. and offensive in the fact that his client is lebron james and the best basketball player in the world right now. in fact, he's dodged a bullet, maybe we bring that up because i think that tells you something that he's representing lebron james. and he doesn't feel compelled to take affirmative steps to level the playing field which is what black lives matter is all about.

and to provide a safe workplace for women, which is what the me too movement is all about. and that he's got nothing left, and he should quit. >> first thing you've said that i disagree with. joel embiid, i'm referring to your comment about lebron being the best in the world. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> what are your thoughts? tweet me @smerconish. go to my facebook page. i will read some responses throughout the course. this comes i think from facebook, unprofessionally honest, boarding insulting. hard for this white guy to say it wasn't racist. unfair of me to try. i thought don had it when he said the way rachel addressed it on camera which we showed you makes it a case closed. what i find so fascinating as amplified from the calls i had on radio about it, is that everybody's got a story in their workplace. black, white, asian, latino,

doesn't matter, everybody has skin in the game in a different perspective. go to my web website @smerconish.com. now, we're aired. tell me were rachel nichols' comments regarding maria taylor, were they justified? i mean, she had the gig and wasn't going to get it or were they appropriate, with reference to diversity? up ahead, would you pay $100,000 for a hunter biden original. can the president's son pursue a painting career? plus the public scramble for educators nationwide. they did their best to adapt but some states are offering families a chance for a do-over. is that a good idea? and president biden announced that the u.s. mission in afghanistan will end august 31st. but after 20 years of war, did we win or lose? we'll discuss.

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the biden administration dealing with a knew week dilemma arising from hunter biden's new career as a full-time artist. the president's son set to start selling his artwork in september for prices as high as $500,000. but how do you prevent a purchaser from paying too much so as to ingratiate itself with the first family? sources tell cnn that the white house was involved in addressing a plan to address concerns to allow hunter biden, a former lawyer who has struggled with addiction to pursue his new art career. "the washington post" was first to report on the involve punt. biden's artwork will be shown in the gallery in new york.

describes him as follows, a life long artist that has devoted his artistic career to both the written word and visual arts. a lawyer by trade who now devotes his life to creative arts, he brings a myriad of experiences, creating powerful and impactful pieces of art. he incorporated oil and acrylic, ink and written word within his work to create an unique experience. under the work, he will shield the identity or reject any offer that he deems suspicious over the asking price. and white house officials should be warned against giving that person any preferential treatment. however, ethics experts have an issue with the fact that there's no clear method to enforce the agreements agreed upon by the gallery and prospective buyers.

others question is the art even worth it. for new york gallery mark straus says for someone who has no professional training and they ever sold work on the market, no one would ever start at these prices. he said the paintings aren't bad at all. but a magazine describes the work as generic zombieism. meanwhile, with stricter environments of family and governance that existed under his president so far former president trump, white house andrew bates said the president has established highest standards and his family's commitment to rigorous processes like this is a prime example. joining me is cnn senior legal

analyst ellie honenig. elie, i know you have a painting on advance. >> mostly, mine runs with frames of bruce springsteen in concert. however, i think the problem here is this just looks terrible, right? the art experts that you mentioned made clear that there's no way if this person's name was anything other than biden, his art would be put on sale for hundreds of thousands of dollars so it looks terrible for the white house. and they've got a complicated ethics problem on their hands now. >> so, i think they're going at it in complete reverse. first of all, i think that hunter biden is entitled to earn a living and command from the marketplace the fair value of the art. but it should be entirely transparent. how can you rely on the owner of an art gallery, no disrespect, to police this offer. that if an offer is suspicious,

he's going to weed it out. and elie, if you were to buy it and entertain me at your house and i see it on your wall how are you going to prevent me from discussing it. the answer is full transparency. let him sell the art. just let the world watch the process. >> i think the process that the white house has put in place is well intentioned. but it's not going it do the trick. they say they're not going to disclose the name of the person who buys it. it doesn't really do the trick. i think the problem here, what makes it tricky is hunter biden is not subject to government ethics rules. he doesn't work for the white house. you can't put rules on the white house. full transparency is never about the idea. i know that from my career as a prosecutor, as long as you're not putting anyone in danger. let people know, let them see. but appearances really matter here. again, that's from my career as a prosecutor. even if they manage to somehow put procedures in place that

would protect this to make people feel better about it looks terrible. and that really matters you can't have people thinking that relatives of the president are trading 0 than last name, trading at access. >> for all of the people shouting at the televisions at what abouts. what about the trumps -- well, it wasn't right there, we're just trying to prevent a similar political laps golapse going fo. and i want to move forward. question, why did bill barr -- his reputation was impact. financially secure. why did he ever come back on donald trump's watch? >> that's a great question, one i address in the book. i think there's an expected and unexpected answer. the expected answer is he was a legal and is a legal extremism, he is of the view, bill barr, that the president should be more powerful, of course, than anybody else in the executive branch. but really in the entire government. the problem is bill barr took

that to an absurd real world where he put the president over any possible investigation. he made it to the point where donald trump could not be touched and he really saved donald trump's hide. what will i found was shocking when we dug in, we found bill barr has made extreme statements about his view of role of religion in government. he talked in his earlier writings and speeches for the need for, and i quote, god's law. he said the only way to run an orderly society is by religious order. so bill barr really not just an extreme legal view but personal and religious view that he sought to install through his vast powers as attorney general. >> remember, he left at christmas, right? there was still 20, 30 days left in the trump administration. i always expected and said so on air at the time that he wanted no part of those final days.

was that not redeeming in a sense? i mean that he really wasn't there for that execution of the so-called big lie? >> yeah, bill barr left in late december, as you said, michael. that's very unusual. i think it was clear to any rational person and certainly bill barr is a rational person that things were going to get even worse. i refuse to give bill barr credit though, he did very late in the game say is there was no -- i'll give him a modicum of credit for that. the problem is what i did not leave out the book for months, bill barr was one of the leading cheerleaders for the lie of the election fraud. he said it every time, every time he got called out and asked what's your proof of this, his answer was none. but it's just common sense. michael if i ever said that in court i'd get my head ripped off. if you make a statement like that you have to have evidence.

i'm not buying that from bill barr. >> congratulations on the book. imagine what the people in the room would say if you have a nice hunter biden original over your shoulder as you speak. from the world of twitter, what do we have, smerconish -- hey trump -- i should read it this way -- hey trump waterboy does hunter work in the white house and is he making millions and getting -- i'm not against hunter. were you not listening? i'm all for hunter earning a living. he's entitled to earn a living. you just need to -- this is a tale as old as time. like, these sort of issues go back as far back as billy bier. jimmy carter had to deal with this sort of a thing on his watch. it's hard to set the parameters for -- yeah, there you go, for the family members. i'm for hunter, i want hunter recovered and earning a great keep. the issue is how do you set it

up in a way that's not going to fuel the conspiracy theorists and give fodder to fox for the next year. oh, the gallery owner, he's going to police this? you got to be joking. transparency. let us all watch like it's sotheby's or christi's or friedman here's in philadelphia. i want to reminder you all to go to my website smerconish.com and answer the survey question. were rachel nichols' comments regarding maria taylor justified or inappropriate? up ahead, the test grades and all it entailed. some states they're being allowed a mulligan to do the whole year over. is that a good idea? and as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from the 20-year long war in afghanistan, the taliban claims they control 85% of the country. does that mean america off the war? ng.

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did america just lose another war? despite the fact that nobody wants to talk about it. this week, president biden pledged the 20-year u.s. operation in afghanistan would end on august 31st, with all troops out by september 11. the president said this -- >> we did not go to afghanistan to nation-build. and it's the right and responsibility of the afghan people alone to decide their future and how they want to run their country. >> but the rapid departure is coinciding with reports of gains by the taliban and concerns about a civil war. this week, the taliban claimed it controls 85% of the territory in afghanistan. a reporter asked the president about this issue. >> is the taliban takeover of afghanistan now inevitable? >> no, it is not.

>> why? >> because you have the afghan troops of 300,000. well-equipped, as well-equipped as any army in the world. and an air force. against something like 75,000 taliban. it is not inevitable. >> so what was our objective? and did we achieve it? in other words, did america lose the afghanistan war. joining me is now a doctor who served as senior adviser to the joint chiefs of staff joseph dunford. he's the author of a book "the american war in afghanistan, the history" which contains, by the way, a thesis. can we put that up on the screen? even though islam preaches unity justice and peace, the taliban were able to tie themselves to religion and to afghan identity

in a way that a government allied with nonmuslim foreign occupiers could not match." i know it's hard to take a book down to one sentence but is that really the core of it? >> yeah, thank you, michael. yeah. it's an important point. there's many reasons why we had difficulty in afghanistan, but i don't we can responsibly forget that a large part of this we came in and it was easy for afghanistan to point to us as occupiers. the government, as long as it was aligned with us had trouble matching that. and i don't think it's a hard thing to understand. it's something that we encountered in previous wars, vietnam, and one can cite in our own independence. >> what's your answer that was put to the president, is it

inevitable that the taliban will control avenufghanistan? >> no, it's not inevitable. i agree with the president. there are situations where the government could continue to fight on and the taliban control a great amount of territory as you mentioned but until they take kabul and the major cities it's not clear that the government hasn't fallen until that happens but with that said, the future for the afghan government looks grim. there are a variety of scenarios in which the taliban can take over the country. and in which the momentum that they have continues they march into cities like kandahar and then it makes it harder for them to stand and fight. and i think a sports team that suffers defeat after defeat, the coach is going to be concerned about getting up their spirit, getting up the morale and getting some wins and that's the kind of situation that the afghan forces are in.

>> is it fair, in the end, to cast this in one or lost terms? and by that, i mean, what if the taliban takes control of afghanistan, that will be perceived as a military loss for the united states. but does that necessarily mean we shouldn't have gone in? because after all, we had to go in to kill those responsible for the events of september 11th. >> i think there's a really difficult danger about afghanistan, just as you say, we may have had to go in, even if that meant in the end, it was going to look like a loss. or maybe even be a loss. and our major goal, like the president said was to prevent attacks to the united states and to counterterrorism. and for 20 years that was fairly effectively done. in that sense, we can say we met our objectives. however, in the future, the terrorist threat returns and there's problems for the united states, then we would say we didn't meet our objectives. and there are other things we

wanted to do like enable the afghan government to stand on its own, and those weren't attained. because the attention of the aim isn't clear, it becomes very hard to argue in america that we won and very hard to counter the argument that we lost. it's just the truth of the matter. >> one final question, hindsight is always 2020, but is it a fair conclusion to reach that maybe a surgical approach, a sniper's approach, not a shotgun blast -- in other words, to have viewed this as a law enforcement measure, not to try to go in and nation-build. i know the president said we were never there to nation-build -- i just lost him? can i complete my thought anyway? i'll just personalize it and say that my own conclusion having been supportive of the invasion of afghanistan, is that in retrospect, what would have been better is a much more surgical trike of those responsible for

the events of september 11, without going in and try to change a government. i think we always conclude, mistakenly, if they only had democracy, if they only had democracy that vietnam, if they only had democracy in iraq, if they only had democracy in afghanistan that would be the s salve of what ales united states. thank you, doctor. this comes from the world of twitter, i think. time will only tell, unfortunately, if the wrong people will do and/or americans will be attacked i think we should have kept a small portion of troops in afghanistan -- yeah, but for how long? you'd be keeping them there in perpetuity. we have short frames of reference. we're not like the chinese. they think in t100-year

increments. we think in sound bites. i want you to visit smerconish.com. i should remind you what it is we're discussing here because i laid it out in the first part of the program. espn's rachel nichols was sarpsa maria taylor all of the success in the world, she covers football, she covers basketball, if you need to give her more things to do because you're feeling pressure about your crappy long time record on diversity, which by the way, i know personally from the female side of it just go for it. you're not going to find it from me or taking my thing away. here's your question, were her comments justified or inappropriate? vote. still to come because of the chaos of remote learning, many student has a rough school year.

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put it, quote, educators have watched with alarm as absenteeism and course failure rates soared during the crisis. students' school work has often lost duels with family crises, poor internet and their own sags motivation. 42% of teachers and administrators expected more students would repeat a grade than before the pandemic. in texas, the dallas independent reports 30% of students lost learning in reading, 50% had lost learning in math. and to deal with this unprecedented situation some state legislatures and school boards around the country have passed or are considering special measures. in washington state they're allowing high school classes in 2021 to stay in school for a bridge year. in kentucky each school district

can decide whether k-12 students would have an option of a do-over. here in my home state of pennsylvania parents of k through 12 students have sole authority to decide by july 15 if their children should repeat a year. and the school, whether public or private, must honor that price. are these good ideas? what are the long-term impacts? joining me alison sokol, director of the knowledge interest that is a nonprofit focus of equity. alison, thank you for being here. i had a person call my radio program yesterday, a kindergarten mom who said a number of parent has held their students back during the pandemic. she was explaining to me this is going to create sort of a bubble class that will go through the next 12 years of education, tapping resources in a way that hadn't been done previously. my point is there are a lot of

ramifications of this subject that we're discussing. >> that's right, and i think when you hear parents and state and district leaders consider that what is at the heart of that acknowledgement is that the last year has been really, really hard for so many students and families. particularly families of color and families from low-income background. but state and district leaders and parents should really be using caution when thinking about a retention policies which research suggests disproportionately affect black and latino students. and can be harmful to students especially in middle and high school. research shows it can impact self-esteem in middle school. and frankly, it's a costly intervention. it can cost $10,000 a year per pupil. and there are evidence-based strategies that are much more effective and much more cost effective. >> in my home state of pennsylvania, it's a parents' decision, you know, there's no

signoff required from an educator, from a teacher. i'm not sure how i feel about that, but if i say, well, there needs to be input from the school. i don't know, have we just laid on an additional test or assessment? what are your thoughts as to whether a parents' determination alone should be sufficient as to whether or not a student repeats the grade based on the pandemic? >> i mean, parents know their children best. and any educational decision about children should be made in partnership with parents. but faced with that really difficult decision, there are some critical questions that parents should be asking before they make a decision to retain their child. particularly, the federal government is providing an additional $125 billion to state school districts through the american recovery plan. and that money, a big portion of that money, 5% of the state money and 20% of the money the

districts are getting has to be used to finish learning and to meet social and academic needs. parents should be asking their school leaders what is that money used for? what additional support, retention or not retention is my child going to get? are they getting most effective support, targeted intensive tutoring. ended training time with students and teachers who can provide the students with the skill and support they need and who will build lasting and meaningful relationships with kids. >> do you worry that parents might try and game the ability to hold a child back due to the pandemic, game it for athletic purposes? or game is for college admission purposes to try and get another year under the belt of their son or daughter, with that reason in mind? >> i think the most important question at hand here, and i suspect what most parents are

really thinking about is the unfinished learning that's happened in the last year. and it's frankly exacerbated the inequities that have existed in our education system for a long time, particularly for students of color. and the thing that parents and education leaders should really be focusing on is how to use their resources, particularly, this huge amount of additional resources from the federal government to focus on getting kids the support they need to secretary academically. >> alison socol, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you for having me. it's been a pleasure. still to come, more of your best and worst tweets. the final survey question, it was the hottest talker of the week. were rachel nichols' comments regarding maria taylor justified or inappropriate? go vote, if you haven't already. . clinically proven. 48 hour hydration.

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time to see how you responded to the survey question at smerconish.com this week. were rachel nichols' comments regarding taylor justified, or were they inappropriate? here are the results. oh, very interesting. can we call it two-thirds with more than 11,000 votes cast, more than two-thirds said justified. i guess justified because, hey, she had a contractual deal where this was to be her responsibility. now, it was going to be taken away from her. one-third saying contrary to that. because she introduced the subject of race, therefore, she crossed the line. i like what don peoples had to say. she offered an appropriate apology, even if it wasn't necessary, and that should end this chapter. what else came in?

let's take a look. is it racist to defend your own career? is it racist to defend your -- well, that's the issue that i was raising. you know, is it, by definition, if you're someone who is white, who believes that you've lost an opportunity to someone of color, and you're raising that fact, is that in and of itself racist? that's the issue we were just discussing, and i guess two-thirds of the audience said, by definition, no. what else came in? sad you cannot have a private conversation in this soviet union. oops, the united states. technology is dividing us. i said the same thing, moesmom. the thing we ought to agree on in this story is someone is recording her on a cell phone and is distributing it. i think it is disgusting. next comment. what do we have? moving quickly today. we're trying to. who would pie tbuy the hunter b

paintings for $500,000 if his father isn't the president of the united states? he is clearly banking on his -- well, there's no doubt the value of his artwork, there are a number of celebrities who paint. there are people who are notable who paint. the value -- i'll flip the table on this. the value is always greater because it's a name. so should he not be able to benefit from this? i have the right prescription. the worst prescription is what they're going to do. somehow, keep secret the identity of the purchaser. what? you go to the person's house and you can't talk about it? that'll never work. transparency. one more, catherine. i'm almost out of time. what do we have? i don't want to see my grandchildren fighting in a country they never heard of. people need to remember 15 of the 20 hijackers came from saudi ar arabia. none from afghanistan or the taliban. that, sir, is true. that's all i have to say. see you next week.

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