and i think one of the other things we have to do is have everyone earn more trust. people in the media, tech, everywhere. earn more trust of people so when you talk to them about vaccines, they believe you. >> all right. well, mike, i really appreciate your time. thank you. thank you zmchlt. thanks so much to all of you for joining us. ac 360 starts now. good evening. a federal judge just ruled that the daca program is illegal, which means the future of hundreds of thousands of immigrants who were brought here as children may, now, be in doubt. we'll look at the decision, and the enormous implications tonight. we begin, however, with the return of covid and the tragic fact that, right now, in this country, virtually none of the illness, isolation, suffering, and dying should be happening at all. period. >> there is a clear message that is coming through. this is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated. >> unvaccinated americans are not protected against serious illness. hospitalization and death.

and we're seeing it in the data. unvaccinated americans account for virtually all, recent covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths. >> a pandemic of the unvaccinated. right now, new cases are rising for the week in all 50 states, up by 50% or more in 38 states. down in none. zero. where just two weeks ago, new cases were averaging about 13 and a half thousand a day, they are now topping 30,000. in some areas in the country, the reports are troubling. a top official in the university of arkansas medical system reporting hospitals there are quote full right now and cases are doubling every-ten days. in florida, average-daily hospitalizations have more than quadrupled in the last two weeks. according to a recent cnn analysis of data from johns hopkins university and the cdc, it states that -- states that have fully vaccinated more than half their residents reported nearly-three times fewer covid cases than states that have vaccinated fewer than half. as for mortality, early analysis

suggests that as many as 99.5% of all deaths in the first-six months of this year have been in unvaccinated patients. right now, thanks to the efforts of two presidents, one republican, one democrat, people now have easy access, often without an appointment, to three highly effective vaccinations. yet, vaccinations, as you know, have been tapering off. the reasons are many fold but a good deal is driven by online misinformation, which the administration today pledged to combat and those suspicions are being stoked by right-wing media. even about something as innocuous and frankly helpful as the white house sending volunteers door to toor not to vaccinate or force vaccinations on anyone, but simply to raise awareness. >> i feel like a vaccination, in a weird way, is just generally kind of going against nature. >> now, talking about going door to door to be able to take vaccines to the people. they could then go door to door to take your guns. they could then go door to door and take your bible. >> hello to door-to-door vaccine

pushers. i think honestly think it's the greatest scandal of my lifetime by far. >> oh, you can have your freedom back if you get the jab. >> going door to door, this is creepy stuff. >> if there is some disease out there, maybe there is just an ebb and flow to life where something's supposed to wipe out a certain amount of people. >> just i don't know who that guy is but consider the depravity of that last statement. more than 250,000 lost american lives bs just this year. does that guy really believe they were all meant to die? they were just supposed to be wiped out because of the ebb and flow of life? would he volunteer, perhaps, in the covid ward of his local hospital, unvaccinated, to help ease the suffering of a single one of those people? do any of these people truly think that with the dangerous, new variant spreading across the country, the effort to vaccinate as many people as possible is actually just a fig leaf for taking people's guns or their bibles away. maybe, it's simply not wanting

to see americans die, needlessly. maybe, it's not wanting the unvaccinated to spread the virus to our children, who are too small to be vaccinated. back in january, when president biden took office and launched a campaign to get people vaccinated, more than 4,400 americans were dying, every single day. that's the entire death toll of the vietnam war every two weeks. today, the average is 389. that's obviously much, much less. and that's a remarkable achievement. but it could be almost zero. doesn't have to be 389 people dying, a day. it could be almost zero and that is a tragedy, all its own. perspective now from two experts we turned to throughout the pandemic. dr. craig spencer, director of global health and emergency medicine at columbia university medical center here in new york. also, professor michael osterholm. professor osterholm, former fda commissioner, scott gottlieb told cnbc that he has seen modeling from the cdc that shows a wave of infection from the

delta variant moving through the population over the next two months. is this the category-five hurricane you warned about earlier-this year? >> well, fortunately, we have actually had a number of people in this country vaccinated over the course of the past four months. so that's going to help. but we still do have 100 million americans, who have not yet been vaccinated and among that group, we are going to see a substantial increase in cases. such that, i can't say that it's going to be the -- a surge, like we saw in january, at all. so i think we have to understand that the numbers could get large. they could be very significant, in some regions but i don't think we are going to see the same kind of -- of large surge of cases we would have seen four months ago, before vaccination has done what it has done. >> and, dr. spencer, an official with the fda told cnn today a decision on approval could come within two months. do you think that is an important step? that -- that that would convince some of those who are undecided? >> i think it would be helpful

in convincing some of the hesitant and the holdouts. look, at this point, we have now delivered hundreds of millions of doses of this vaccine. we know it's safe. it's effective. and it has saved a lot of life and will continue to do so. i think it's important that we go through the right process. but i think, and i am happy, that now they are considering this and hopefully that will help get more people vaccinated because as you know, still, the majority of americans are not fully vaccinated. we have just over 48% that are. we still have a lot of people who are vulnerable to infection, as the delta variant circulates. >> professor osterholm, do we yet know -- i mean, for those who are vaccinated and fully vaccinated, do we know enough about how the delta variant interacts with people who are vaccinated? whether -- you know, obviously, people can still become positive if they are vaccinated. do we know about the transmissibility, people are vaccinated transmitting it if they are positive, even if it's a mild case, transmitting it? and also, the possibility of

long-haul or long-covid symptoms for those who have mild cases? >> well, first of all, we do know that the vaccine, particularly with the two-dose regimen, is very effective in preventing one from having even clinical illness with the delta variant. now, remember, we said 90 to 95% effective so that doesn't mean that it's going to be perfect. but in fact, even among those that do have breakthrough infections, as we call them, typically, are also very mild when they do happen. the one exception to that are the very older population, where there, we can see more severe illness just like we do with influenza vaccine. where we're more challenged, and as dr. spencer just pointed out, is the fact that if we are only partially vaccinated with, in this case, either the moderna or the pfizer vaccines, then we have less protection against the delta variant. but even then, it still really does reduce, substantially, serious illness and

hospitalization. >> i guess, i'm just wondering and maybe this is selfish on my part as somebody vaccinated and has a child who can't be vaccinated because they are too little. if i became positive with the delta variant, is it a possibility i would transfer that to my -- my son? >> it, in fact, is possible. there have been several studies looking at this which suggest that anywhere from 45 to 55% of the time, you won't because of your vaccination. but there are those instances, where transmission has occurred. but again, it's at a much lower rate than we would see if you weren't vaccinated. >> dr. spencer, are you concerned that unvaccinated people could pass the virus, back, to vaccinated people? which could, theoretically, cause the virus to mutate against a vaccinated-immune system? >> well, i think, and it's important, this is the most important message, i think, of all of this. is that right now, if you are fully vaccinated like i have been lucky to be since december as a healthcare worker. any of the vaccines that are currently available in the u.s., if you are fully vaccinated, the likelihood that i will see you in the emergency room as a covid

patient is near zero. now, if you are unvaccinated, the risk is incredibly high. and may be in some areas higher than it's ever been because there are not mask mandates. people are enjoying this wonderful return of summer and are a little more carefree, lackadaisical, and making it more possible that you could be exposed if you are unvaccinated to covid. if you are vaccinated, continue to be smart. we know there is a lot of virus out there but again, the likelihood that you are going to get sick, end up in the hospital, or die from covid is incredibly, incredibly small. so just another plug for everyone to get vaccinated if you can. >> starting tomorrow night, masks are going to be required in indoor places in los angeles, whether you are vaccinated or not. do you think that is a good idea? and do you think other cities are going to reinstate a mask mandate? should people vaccinated wear a mask in a gym? >> well, over the course of the next six to twelve weeks, we are going to see a very difficult period with regard to the number of cases. again, we are already seeing that in the southern states. we are seeing what's happened in

healthcare systems there. and each state will really be in a situation of deciding, with all of the illnesses we are seeing, will we take additional measures? my fear is that the public is pretty well done with this pandemic even though the pandemic isn't done with them. and so, i think this is going to be an ongoing-political debate, as much as it is anything else. and all i can say is, is that, again, i can't emphasize enough, get vaccinated. there's 100 million of you out there, not vaccinated, that we need to get vaccinated. so i think at this point, that's going to be the primary message. and whatever else we can do to reduce transmission. whether it's distancing, whatever. we're not going to go back to those old days. the public i just don't think will accept it. look at england. england right now is in the throes of their worst days since january and on monday, they are going to open up completely, freedom day. >> professor osterholm, dr. spencer, appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you. just ahead tonight. the breaking news on the

administration's assessment of whether covid escaped from a lab in wuhan, china. and next, that breaking news on daca. what happens now that a federal judge has ruled against it? ♪ when technology is easier to use... ♪ barriers don't stand a chance. ♪ that's why we'll stop at nothing to deliver our technology as-a-service. ♪ up here, success depends on the choices you make. but i know i've got this. and when it comes to controlling his type 2 diabetes, my dad's got this, too. with the right choices, you have it in you to control your a1c and once-weekly trulicity may help. most people taking trulicity reached an a1c under 7%. and it starts lowering blood sugar from the first dose, by helping your body release the insulin it's already making. trulicity is for type 2 diabetes.

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♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ as we mentioned at the top, a federal judge in texas has just ruled that the deferred action for childhood arrivals program, daca, is illegal. intended to provide a temporary reprieve for undocumented immigrants brought here as children. for most, this is the only country they have known. cnn's evan perez joins now with the breaking news and where this may lead. >> anderson, this is the latest twist for hundreds of thousands of people who rely on this program. they are employed. they live here, legally, as a result of this program. that was -- that was started by the obama administration. and this judge has said that the program was illegal. that it was never authorized by congress. and therefore, needs to go away. however, he didn't immediately end the program.

he said that, essentially, because there are these hundreds of thousands of people who rely on it, it is not fair, essentially, for them to be thrown out of it, just like that. and so, what he is doing is he's prohibiting the government from allowing any, new people to enter the program. but what this really does is -- is -- is it puts a lot of -- another level of uncertainty for -- for -- certainly, for these hundreds of thousands of people that rely on -- on this program. and -- and this is a result of a lawsuit that was brought by texas and a number of other states. >> so, would this be appealed? >> well, we expect that the justice department will appeal. we've asked them. they have not, yet, responded. and look. the -- the way this ruling was written by this judge, andrew hannon, who was appointed by george w. bush, he essentially is using the dissent from a -- from a previous-court ruling of the supreme court which blocked the -- the trump administration's efforts to end this program. he essentially using all the dissents to -- to try to bring this back to the supreme court.

he almost seems to be saying, we need this to go back to the supreme court so that they can address whether this program is legal or not. in the end, though, anderson, there needs to be a congressional solution to this. congress needs to pass a law to decide whether these people can stay or not. >> evan perez, appreciate it. joining us now, cnn senior political correspondent, abby phillip. also, cnn chief legal analyst, jeffrey toobin. the ruling saying the program is illegal. the judge is saying current participants can remain in it. is that correct? >> that -- that's true. but, you know, there -- there -- the legal situation of the dreamers, now, is more precarious because this case, certainly, will be appealed to the fifth circuit. the fifth circuit is a very conservative court and it is entirely possible that they will say, yes, judge hannon was right. but the program needs to go away, tomorrow. and then, it is likely that this case may, again, wind up before the supreme court. and this is a more conservative

supreme court than the last time -- um -- they -- they heard a case about -- for the dreamers. so, you know, this is a period of real uncertainty. it's not today that the dreamers are being thrown out of this country. but they are in trouble, now. in more trouble than they were this morning. >> abby, for the biden administration, how big of a blow is this? because it's basically upending something that president biden has worked on since the obama administration. >> yeah. that's true. i think for liberals, in general, this is a major, major blow. but one that, actually, i believe, was largely expected. you know, activists who have been working on this know that the daca program is imperilled in the courts and that's why a lot of the attention has been placed on trying to get congress to create a pathway to citizenship. and that's something the democrats and of the biden administration, actually, want to do as soon as this year. even, potentially, trying to do it through the

budget-reconciliation process. so, there is actually a fire underneath democrats and there has been that fire for quite some time for them to do something legislatively. frankly, by any means necessary because they have known, for some time, that the courts were likely to, either -- either, constrain this program or kick it up to the supreme court. which as you've noted, is more conservative than it has been in decades. and -- and seems, at least on its face, to be unlikely to uphold the daca program. >> jeff, i mean, the -- the trump administration tried to bring this to the supreme court. they -- they didn't go for it. why would they, now? >> well, the issue was somewhat different, before the supreme court then. the -- what the supreme court ruled was that the -- um -- trump administration didn't follow the proper procedures, in revoking daca. one of the first things president trump did was try to get rid of this program. but they said, procedurally, they didn't follow the right steps. the important point to make, legally, about all of this is

there is no doubt that congress has the right to protect the dreamers. # what all these legal fights have been about is whether, and how, the president can do it, unilaterally. but, you know, it is entirely clear that congress has the right to protect the dreamers. they just haven't done it and what's especially maddening about that is that, even a lot of republicans who oppose comprehensive-immigration reform won't say at least they want to protect the dreamers. they just wind up opposing, any time a law comes -- comes before them to protect the dreamers. so we'll see if this case actually lights a fire under congress to actually do something about it. >> yeah, abby, i mean, reaction obviously from democrats have been pouring in tonight. we should point out, only congress and we said this but only congress can provide a permanent solution for daca recipients through legislation. >> exactly. and that's been the case, from the very beginning.

what's been interesting, politically, is that as jeffrey was saying, even trump claimed that he wanted to find a way to allow dreamers to stay in the united states. the question is, at what cost? republicans have, repeatedly, and increased the bar for what they say they want, in exchange for that. the border wall. you know, money for certain types of border security. perhaps, certain kinds of enforcement that democrats are not willing to sign off on. so that's where the rubber meets the road, in terms of -- in terms of negotiations. the republican party is perhaps more hard lined on immigration now, than they have been in -- in decades. but at the same time, the dreamer program is something that is broadly popular among the american public. it's just that they want, in exchange for a path to citizenship, many things that democrats say absolutely no way. and i think that's why, likely,

if this is going to happen, it's probably not going to happen with a whole lot of -- of republican support. either, because it's going to go through a pathway that requires all democrats to be onboard. or because republicans just are not going to be willing to do a pathway to citizenship without other kinds of immigration-related enforcement related legislation attached to it. >> abby phillip, jeff toobin. thanks. just ahead. breaking new ossen the possible origin of the coronavirus, specifically about the biden administration's review about what the intelligence says about possibly coronavirus leaking from a lab in wuhan. details, next.

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more. so, what are you learning about this review? >> so, anderson, we have learned that several senior-biden administration officials, including biden's national security adviser, jake sullivan. they believe that the theory that the coronavirus accidentally escaped from a lab in wuhan is at least as credible as the possibility it emerged naturally from an animal, directly, to a human. this is according to multiple sources involved with the covid-origins review. now, to be clear, this does not mean they believe the virus was engineered in a lab or was intentionally released. but rather, could have been studied in a lab, and then escaped accident hi. they view that as deeply credible. and this is a dramatic shift from a year ago when, as you know, democrats publicly downplayed the so-called lab-leak theory amid then-president trump politicizing the virus. it is important to note this is the view of some senior biden-administration officials, involved with the intelligence review. many scientists who study coronaviruses say the evidence strongly supports a natural origin for the virus and that it's unlikely scientists were

studying the virus in a lab and that it leaked out. but from, both, the science and intelligence perspective, anderson, officials say they need more information from china which has not been any more forthcoming during this review, according to these sources. on thursday, it's worth noting, the director general of the world health organization said it had been, quote, premature to dismiss the possibility that a lab leak had spawned the pandemic and urged china to provide more information. >> and has china had a response, at least, to this -- to this theory? >> so, china has strongly denied the lab-leak theory. a chief virologist in china had said that the possibility didn't exist. that that happened. now, of course, the w.h.o. saying this also prompted another response from china. in fact, china's foreign ministry spokesperson said, in this statement, that since the beginning of the epidemic, china has taken a scientific, professional, serious, and responsible attitude in tracing the origins of the virus.

and they've, also, said that researchers should look at other countries and whether covid originated from there. that has been china's view. >> pamela brown, appreciate it. thanks perspective now from josh rogan, "washington post" columnist, who's written extensively on the subject of the he is also author of "chaos under heaven, trump, xi, and the battle for the 21st century." so, josh, you broke a story in "the washington post" in april of 2020 about two diplomatic cables from the state department that warned of safety issues within wuhan lab a couple years ago. it's certainly not a smoking gun. the cables. but -- but they did warn of risky coronavirus research and bad-safety procedures. and that -- i mean, if it's not a smoking gun, it's certainly, you know, a whiff of smoke. >> right. it's just to say that there have been concerns, for a long time, about the risky coronavirus research that was going on in a series of chinese labs, including the wuhan institute of virology. and again, that doesn't tell us about the outbreak because those cables were written two years

prior but what it does tell us is that we can't rule out that the lab was involved, somehow. so we need to investigate it. which is all that dr. tedros is saying. admittedly, a year late. and that's all the biden administration is saying. and, anderson, you were there, i was there, in 2020, when the issue of the lab-leak theory became highly politicized for a number of crazy reasons. because trump was using racist terms. because some of the scientists who were close to the lab called it a conspiracy theory to cover their own butts. and because the media really wasn't really sure what to make of all of it amidst of the election panic. but here we are in 2021 and it seems pretty clear now, that no matter what you thought about the lab-leak theory in 2020, it's possible. which means we have to check it out, full stop. and now, we have the biden administration saying, yeah, they agree with that, too. >> and from all your reporting, what stands out to you as the best evidence that the virus could have leaked out from the lab? >> well, first of all, some of it, they published. and they have admitted that they were using techniques to change viruses that came from bat

coronaviruses in order to see how they played in human cells. so that's a piece of evidence, right there. then, there is the intelligence that was put out by the trump administration, but confirmed by the biden administration. sick researchers. a secret part of the lab they didn't tell us about. risky coronavirus research that they were doing with the military in a series of chinese labs. all of this is not proof. it's not a smoking gun. but what it tells us is that there's enough there that we should check out the labs. and then, there's the coverup, of course, right? why did they take the virus database offline? why won't they let anybody into the labs? why did they sensor all the science? why did they jail all the journalists and scientists who didn't toe the party line? the coverup is covering up the lab. so that probably should tell us there is something to find in the lab. now, we don't know. we have to do the investigation. but this whole idea that we shouldn't look into it, i think, is now being rightfully put aside. >> and the -- i mean, the origins of the actual virus, itself, are believed -- are -- i

mean, it's pretty clear, it came from a bat, according to -- i mean, the -- that's still believed to be correct. it just -- the idea is that they were using or working with the coronavirus in this lab, doing experiments with it. and that's how it would've leaked out. >> well, there is a lot of different possibilities, actually, right? some of the scientists think it went through an intermediate host that came through the market. okay. maybe, that's true. that's a possibility. we should check that out, too. although, i would say that the -- the scientists have checked out the market theory, a lot. and they never found any evidence that it came from the market. not any, hard evidence. but the bottom line is it could have come to the lab and then leaked. it could have been worked on in the lab. it could have been manipulated and we might not even be able to tell by looking at it. and scientists, including top virologists disagree about this point. there is no scientific consensus. robert redfield told sanjay gupta on cnn, he took a look at the virus. he's a virologist. he's seen all the intelligence. and he said it looks like it was manipulated in the lab. that it came from research in

the lab and "the new york times," you know, called him a conspiracy theorist. so this is what we are dealing with. with err dealing with a lot of unknowns, which naturally causes a lot of confusion. but that's why i say we just have to investigate all the possible theories which is now what tedros is saying. unfortunately, i don't think the w.h.o. has any leverage to get to the chinese labs. i don't think the biden administration is using its leverage, although it has it. so there is still a lot more work to be done to investigate both theories. >> yeah. i mean, unless -- unless china cooperates and cooperates sort of far more than they -- they certainly have been. um, unless there is, you know, intelligence, human intelligence, or some sort of electronic intelligence from that lab. there is no way to know, without china's cooperation. >> right. well, i think sending a standard of a smoking gun is setting an expectation that is too high. we are not going to find a smoking gun likely in either way. but there is a lot more

investigative work that we can do and of course the chinese government's not going to let us into the lab if we just say pretty please. we have to bring to bear on the chinese government to pressure them to let us into the lab. and then we also have to investigate our own labs and the work we were doing. and that's what congress is doing now. you see democrats and republicans now calling for more disclosure of how our government agencies were involved with those labs. it is an urgent matter of national security and public health. >> josh rogan, appreciate all the reporting. thank you. up next, what president biden said late today about platforms like facebook and vaccine misinformation and the immediate pushback from the social-media giant. that's coming up, when we come back.

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president biden weighed in today on vaccine misinformation ramping up the administration's rhetoric about social media companies playing a significant role in spreading false information. he wasn't hesitant, when answering a reporter's question as he was leaving the white house. >> covid misinformation. what's your message to platforms like facebook? >> they're killing people. i mean, really -- they are -- look, the only pandemic we have is among the unvaccinated. and that -- and they're -- and they're killing people. >> it didn't take long for facebook to push back. in a statement, the company said quote we will not be distracted by accusations which aren't supported by the facts. the fact is that more than 2 billion people have viewed authoritative information about covid-19 vax ps on facebook,

which is more than any other place on the internet. more than 3.3 million americans have, also, used our vaccine-finder tool to find out where and how to get a vaccine. the facts show that facebook is helping save hives. period. the back and forth came after jen psaki said the administration wasn't satisfied with the company's actions to date on the problem. all of this as conservatives continue to go on the attack against the white house strategy. thomas macy tweeted out this. they are literally admitting to colluding with media to control the narrative. this is censorship. some perspective now from cnn political commentator, mary katherine hamm. and paul begala. mary katherine, good to see you. we just heard the reaction from elected-republican officials. even house majority leader kevin mccarthy tweeted yesterday, quote, big tech and big government want the same thing to control you. but when it comes to actually scientific data and facts, why shouldn't there be an effort to help people find the truth? >> well, i think, as facebook

has said, they already sort of attempt to do that. i feel like the biden administration's sort of biting the hand that feeds them, in this case. look. i have talked about these vaccines being a miracle, the way they were developed and developed so quickly. back when even kamala harris was saying that she was skeptical if something came out during the trump administration. like, this has been a problem on both siedes of the aisle and its not good but think this goes beyond that. this is a speech issue and i think we would be really clear eyed about that, if it were a republican administration. now, there is that thing where people say it's not a speech issue, mary katherine, because they are not actually -- the government's not actually censoring. they are not doing the job, they are asking facebook to do the job. this comes pretty close. this is a strategic partnership with a communications platform that the executive of the united states says is killing people. that's pretty chilling speech and frankly, facebook's clamped down pretty hard on stuff that's not just misinformation. and we just did a segment on the

story about the lab-leak theory, which was a credible theory a year ago but was called misinformation because it was inconvenient information that people didn't want to discuss. and that was actively censored on social-media platforms when it shouldn't have been. so i worry a little bit about what will be actively censored now from apparently marching orders from the executive of the united states. >> paul, is -- is this censorship? >> no. not even close. i mean, it's just none ssense, sorry. but i actually took the time to read dr. vivek murthy's report, the surgeon general. and i think it will stand up the way the report in 1962 did about pollution being bad for our health. in 1964, surgeon issued a report about how smoking is bad for our health. well, facebook is bad for our health. they are put polluting the information environment and i am glad that the -- the white house is -- by the way, a great many conservatives agree with this. they are always complaining about big tech but this is critically important.

we cover this every night. something in the order of 99% of the people who are dying from covid, now, are dying because they didn't get a vaccine. and the vaccine is available. and we need to reach those folks. the way the algorithm works, according both to dr. murthy's report. it promotes the familiar, it promote something you have seen before. it promotes something that's popular. it doesn't promote something that is true. they could change their al algorithm to promote things that are true from trusted sources. they don't do that. why? because the negative holds you on their platform, longer. they make more money from hate. and that's what they are in the business of is making money. well, just the way government regulates pollution and cigarettes, the government makes sure facebook is doing their job. >> information is a speech issue. that's what you are talking about. >> of course, it is. >> what you deem -- what you deem to be pollution of information, as dictated -- your wishes dictated by the executives of the united states with the force of the government

behind it. strongly, suggesting that a private company deal with the pollution of information becomes a speech issue, very quickly. and i think you would see that very clearly if this were the trump administration. >> i -- i see it very clearly, mary katherine. but i don't have the right to use free speech to say anderson cooper shot a man in reno just to watch him die, right? there are limits to speech. when people are dying because they can't get this vaccine and companies are making profit. >> people are getting the vaccine. and you object to their conversations that you think are problematic about the vaccine. >> no. i object to the algorithm promoting -- no. no. >> it just doesn't. and once you go down that road, it becomes very dangerous. >> paul, just because -- paul, just because people have access to information, which may be inaccurate or -- or, you know, shades of gray and a matter of opinion. it doesn't mean that they -- i mean, they -- they have free will. shouldn't people have -- have information? i mean, don't we live in a

society where we believe people should have a lot of information? and they can make up their own minds about things? people who are not getting vaccines. it's not that they never heard that vaccines are incredibly beneficial. and they haven't -- they've seen the facts. they are just choosing to make a different decision. >> some have seen the facts and some haven't. but i think people should have a right, obviously, to say anything they want. i think mary katherine is -- is -- perhaps, i'm not explaining my position clearly enough for mary katherine. i'm not saying that speech should be regulated. i am saying that facebook ought to look in the mirror and tell the truth, which is they make more money through hate. they make more money through misinformation. they are not the government. they're a for-profit corporation. and so, they deliver money for their shareholders. that's their job. but they are making more money by spreading more lies. and if you read the report, the surgeon general doesn't suggest any kind of censorship, whatsoever, at all. he is simply saying -- he goes through what we can do, as individuals, as communities, as educators. >> sorry, paul, i think -- i mean, i've had several

arguments, you know, or interviews with facebook people over the years. their argument is we are -- we are a platform. >> right. >> for people to have conversations and meeting and -- and communities and stuff. we are not the arbiter of, you know, in some cases, we do -- we have standards that violate. i get there is all sorts of problems with their standards but that is their position. i don't know that their position is, you know -- i think, your argument that they are profiting because they want lies on their site. i'm not sure that's accurate, is it? >> their algorithm promotes anything that keeps you on the website longer. and that is, usually, the negative, the misinformation. in the -- in the report today, the surgeon general says untrue stories are 70% more likely to be promoted by -- by us but also by facebook. it's -- it's -- i guess, if i were james carville, i say it's the algorithm, stupid. they are adding very lolocity t

lies. but -- but when facebook promotes that and accelerates that, that's a problem. >> it's just -- it's walking a real sly and i think problematic line when the actual executive is saying that speech is killing people, which is nuts. that's not a position i agree with and i don't think it's one that paul would agree with under any, other administration. and the thing is this counteracts their actual goal because are skeptics convinced by the idea that the government is saying to facebook, hey, we would really like you to shut up all these people we disagree with on this contentious subject. it will lead to other things in areas. anything the government takes under its wing. they are going to expand their reach. >> mary katherine, paul begala, appreciate it. we are out of time. sorry. straight ahead. breaking news on new details about what could be the next step for manhattan prosecutors as they continue continue to pressure a trump executive named matthew calamari. that's next. your heart isn't just yours. protect it with bayer aspirin.

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breaking news tonight in our continuing investigation. the trump organization in the wake of the indictment on a range of tax charges according to a source the focus now is on someone named matthew cal maury, a top executive within the

company. so what are you learning about these attempts by prosecutors to get matthew cal maury to cooperate? >> since they've filed the charges they've been focused on trying to get him to cooperate. here's the problem. we're two years into this investigation, anderson. and at this point a source familiar tells me that they still don't have a cooperating witness inside the organization. and that's a huge problem for their case. we know the former president. he doesn't e-mail. he doesn't leave much of a paper trail, so they really need someone on the inside of the organization who could reveal details about any alleged criminal activity. now, you may remember when the charges were filed against the company there was an unindicted coconspirator. on our reporting we have identified that person as the company's controller. he testified before the grand jury but they still don't have

that key cooperating witness, and that's why mr. calamare is such a focus right now. >> and who is this calamare? >> he's a fascinating person out of trump world. this is guy risen from being in a tennis tournament all the way up to the chief officer of the organization. he's been with him for decades. he's repeatedly declared his loyalty, and it's not clear he would ever flip even if he's criminally charged. now, could he potentially be criminally charged? it's certainly possible. we've learned in our reporting that he and his son who also works for the company, they're both under scrutiny for possibly not paying taxes on some benefits they received in addition to their compensation. apartments and cars. in my reporting it's just not clear that prosecutors will actually charge him. and when i asked the attorney if they would cooperate his response, his defense is cooperate about what? the crux of their defense is that this isn't a financial guy.

they said, look, this is it guy he's dealing with building security, with cameras. he doesn't know about financial dealings. look, as a recovering attorney, anderson, i would say most ceos should have some working knowledge of the financial works of the a company, but that's their defense. and at this point it's not clear they'll be charged. >> appreciate it. still to come breaking news from haiti and the fbi's role in the assassination investigation of the president. details next. ♪ ♪ when technology is easier to use... ♪ barriers don't stand a chance. ♪ that's why we'll stop at nothing to deliver our technology as-a-service. ♪

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there's more breaking news about the u.s. involvement in the assassination of the haitian president last week. what have you learned, matt? >> reporter: anderson, we know there are fbi agents on the ground here that have at least had a chance to preliminary

question some of the key suspects in this case. but they're not just here to assist haitian authorities in their investigation. we're reporting tonight that these fbi agents are actually looking into whether u.s. law was broken here. because remember not only do you have three american citizens that have officially on this suspect list but it appears at least part if not a majority of this plot to assassinate haiti's president was actually hashed in south florida. that means the department of justice, the fbi they're going to look into whether u.s. law was broken. and because this happened so much in south florida, there's american citizens involved, obviously that increases the likelihood the department of justice could bring charges against people involved in this assassination. meanwhile, we did get some new reporting today after a press conf conference, he told us nearly 30 police officers here on the island are being investigated as a part of this investigation into the assassination including some police officers who were at the presidential residence the night of this assassination.

but all of that information, anderson, what doesn't it have? a motive. we still do not know what the motive behind this assassination is. we know a lot more about the suspects, but why they did it, we're still not being given those answers. >> and you're learning more i understand about plans for a presidential funeral. >> yeah, this has been a big open question for a while. we did learn today that the official funeral for the president will take place in the northern part of the country a week from now. that'll be next friday. we also know the first lady who remember was injured in this assassination of her husband, she's been recovering in a hospital in miami, she's going to be coming back for that funeral. one quick thing, anderson, it'll be interesting to see there haven't been very many protests yet perhaps in part because of the fact this funeral hasn't taken place. we've been talking to some people on the island who think maybe that's out of respect that funeral hasn't taken place yet, but there's a political vacuum here. when that happens in haiti there

could be protests. that's what we're going to be looking out for once this presidential funeral wraps up going into next weekend. >> appreciate it. thanks. the news continues. want to hand it over to chris for cuomo prime time. i am chris cuomo. welcome to prime time. deep denial. now we made ourselves sick. that is the story of america and the pandemic. and we are writing another dark chapter right now. all 50 states and washington, d.c., all of us are reporting rises in new covid cases from a week ago. that's the first time it's happened since january, all 50 of us. 38 of them are seeing at least a 58% increase. hospitalizations way up, deaths up. why? two reasons. one, the obvious. we're out, we're in contact. we knew this would happen. the second one we have to focus on, the real problem. the hope was the vaccine would even the