republicans would need to sign off on a subpoena if he declined to come in voluntarily. thanks so much for joining us tonight on "outfront." "ac 360" starts right now. good evening. in what has been a remarkable fall after a disturbing report on the sexual harassment investigation that he himself authorized, three-term new york governor andrew cuomo announced his resignation today. >> the best way i can help now is if i step aside and let government get back to governing. and therefore, that's what i'll do. because i work for you. and doing the right thing is doing the right thing for you. >> he said those words, that he's leaving effective two weeks from today, more than 12 minutes into his remarks. during that time he took issue with his 11 accusers, recasting their allegations to better suit his far more favorable view of

himself. as a man out of step with the times, not a serial harasser as the attorney general's report alleges. >> i've never crossed the line with anyone. but i didn't realize the extent to which the line has been redrawn. there are generational and cultural shifts that i just didn't fully appreciate. and i should have. no excuses. >> well, his accusers said the governor certainly did cross a line, often. that sailed, the governor did also offer excuses, suggesting the investigation as well as new york's justice system was unfair and biased against him. he called the controversy "politically motivated." he also had this to say to his three adult daughters. >> i've seen the look in their

eyes and the expression on their faces. and it hurt. your dad made mistakes, and he apologized. and he learned from it. and that's what life is all about. >> lindsey boylan, the governor's first accuser, made a statement on twitter. it reads, "from the beginning i simply asked that the governor stop his abusive behavior. it became abundantly clear he was unable to do that, instead attacking and blaming victims until the end. it is a tragedy that so many stood by and watched these abuses happen." she continued, "i am thankful for the attorney general, the investigators and all those who pursued the truth despite intimidation and threats of retaliation." an attorney for two other accusers says their clients feel vindicated and relieved, their words, he will no longer "be in a position of power over anyone." new york's democratic state assembly speaker whose chamber was heading toward impeachment proceedings had this to say.

"governor cuomo's resignation is the right decision. the brave women who stepped forward were heard. everyone deserves to work in a harassment-free environment." president biden, who has publicly urged governor cuomo to resign, said this. >> i respect the governor's decision, and women should be believed when they make accusations that are able to on the face of them make sense and investigated, they're investigated and the judgment is made that they said wa was correct. >> the president was also asked to assess governor cuomo's tenure in office apart from the behavior that's now part of his legacy. >> he's done a hell of a job. i thought he's done a hell of a job. and i mean both on -- everything from access to voting to infrastructure to a whole range of things. that's why it's so sad. >> with governor cuomo's resignation lieutenant governor kathy hochul takes office two weeks from now. she is scheduled to hold a press conference tomorrow afternoon. i want to get perspective on this entire day, where it may lead.

joining us cnn's senior political analyst and a former senior adviser to president obama david axelrod. also cnn chief political correspondent and "state of the union" anchor dana bash. dana, governor cuomo one the most tenacious fight-oriented politicians there is. the fact that he realized he could not survive this, what does it say that he realized that and that he couldn't hold on to power? >> the writing was on the wall. even and especially for somebody who understands the raw politics and the situation of politics. and somebody described him as a shark, that he would never stop swimming. and that this is an example of the fact that because he did stop swimming he knows he was politically at least for now done with. and i think it's also important to note, and you really described this in your intro, anderson, that this was the combination of multiple women

getting together, whether they did it intentionally or not, but feeling free and feeling brave because the first one did it to come forward and talk. and an independent investigation. and that it was all done by his own party. yes, they are potentially rivals within his party, but that's irrelevant. and this was i think kind of textbook on how this kind of thing should be investigated and should be approached and women should be treated. with regard to the attorney general. maybe not so much with regard to at least until the very end today, kind of at the end, the governor. >> and david, and yet the way the governor portrayed this, he's being unfairly treated by the attorney general's office. did it surprise you that he was still framing it in that way? just yesterday cnn was reporting he was in a "fighting mood" which seems to be the mood from what people say about him that

he's always in. i'm not sure that has served him well in this case. what do you make of the words he -- what he said today? >> first of all, let me say, anderson, i worked in my previous career, i worked for andrew cuomo in one campaign when he ran for attorney general and i would say he wakes up every morning in a fighting mood. so i wasn't surprised. he is as aggressive, relentless a politician as i've ever known. the thing i found baffling about his words today, he's absolutely right. the lines have changed. we're living in a different world now. but in 2019 he signed a bill that was heralded as a model for the nation making it easier for women to bring sexual harassment charges. and so what did he know then that he didn't know six months later when he had this alleged encounter with charlotte

bennett, his assistant, that she described in such painful detail and that he hasn't really denied? he knew where the lines were when he signed that bill. he spoke very eloquently to them. he just didn't observe them. and that i think makes this all the more egregious. >> dana, to david's point, the governor's remarks today, they veered from denying to apologizing to non-apologizing to v, apologizing. he said, "i didn't realize the extent to which the line has been redrawn." in 2021 can a politician plausibly say that they didn't understand it wasn't okay to touch people in the way that the governor has been accused of? at what point does that sound -- it just sounds like an excuse to perhaps later on, you know, be able to claim, well, i was just -- you know, it's this crazy culture that we're living in. >> yeah. the answer is no. that is not acceptable. it wasn't acceptable then, but it's definitely not acceptable

now. to david's point, this is a governor who was surrounded by leaders of -- including celebrities of the me too and time's up movement because he really said and claimed to understand and did so when it comes to the legislation that he pushed forward in his state. and the fact there was clearly such a dichotomy between what he was saying that needed to be done and what he did and how he was acting on a personal basis. and look, i'm not going to get into his head, but the fact that he gave such a multidimensional and in many ways things that kind of went at each other in this speech, they contradicted one another, made it seem to me like some of it was authentic fighting, i'm really upset, and other was this is the kind of thing i know i need to say in order to salvage whatever bit of

the reputation that i have and potential for going forward. >> governor cuomo said he believes this controversy is politically motivated. it's certainly a little rich for him to say that considering he is an incredibly intense, relentless politician himself and clearly politically motivated. >> yeah. it's also the fact that he asked the attorney general to look into this and he asked everyone to await the results of the attorney general's investigation before rendering a judgment, and people did. because as you remember, anderson, back in february people were calling for his resignation then. and the president said then, wellish let's wait, let's respect, what he sailed, let's wait for the attorney general to speak. so he bought himself six months. but the story didn't get better when the investigation was held. look, there's no doubt that andrew cuomo has accumulated a lot of political enemies and

opponents over the course of a long and combative political career and there weren't a lot of people who were that eager to stand up for him now. but to say that these women -- we've now seen some of these women who've come forward, particularly these younger women who have gone on camera and shared their stories. they don't look very political. they look like people who -- that why idealistic young women who went to work for a governor they respected and ended up being wounded by that experience. >> yeah, put in positions they should never have been. touched incredibly inappropriately. david axelrod, dana bash, appreciate it. thank you. it's not going away, next. even though he is, the possible civil and legal trouble still facing governor cuomo. and white house chief of staff ron klain joins us too to talk babying win for the biden administration, today's landmark bipartisan senate vote to pave the way on finally rebuilding infrastructure.

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andrew cuomo's announcement today that he's leaving office in two weeks might have relieved state lawmakers the burden of impeachment proceedings. however, his political fade-out is not taking the governor out of potential civil and criminal jeopardy. albany county sheriff greg appleby says it will have no effect on our investigation. a spokesman for the district attorney in nassau county said its probe of possible criminal actions will continue. in all d.a.s np at least four counties have requested additional information connected to the report that sealed governor cuomo's political fate. joining us, our own legal team, both former federal prosecutor and cnn legaln't jennifer rogers and cnn senior legal analyst elie honig. what kind of legal trouble could governor cuomo potentially be in down the line? >> so there's two things to watch for here, anderson. first of all, potential criminal charges. they are absolutely still possible. but i think realistically they're unlikely. here's why. in order to prove a criminal

case you have to make proof beyond a reasonable doubt. that doesn't mean something likely happened. that doesn't mean something very likely happened. that's the highest standard known to our legal system. and an important thing to keep in mind too. part of the reason the attorney general's report had so much impact is because there were 11 dplanants. if you're going to charge a criminal case, though, each of those complainants stands alone. you're not going to have that sort of impact of the weight of 11 different complainants. and there could be civil lawsuits as well, anderson. any or all of those 11 women can sue governor cuomo under the law that he signed that makes it easier to sue or the state of new york for money damages. >> jennifer, how do you see the road ahead for the governor in terms of the law? >> well, he's got a lot to navigate, anderson. as elie just said, there's a possibility of criminal charges. but i really think he's going to be more engaged with these civil lawsuits. elie mentioned the 11 complainants. they certainly are likely to sue some of them i think already have started that process. but there's the possibility of more than that because the report found not just that these

11 complainance were justified in their complaints but a hostile work environment was created. so that potentially opens up the possibility of plaintiffs from a much larger class, indeed the report found that virtually every employee that they interviewed excluding the very, very top senior aides to the governor, all described this hostile work environment far beyond the 11 complainants. so we have a pretty big possible plaintiff class here. i think he's going to be embroiled in that for a while. >> elie, is he personally liable for that in terms of financial penalty? >> yeah, he could be. these plaintiffs are going to have to decide do we sue governor andrew cuomo or andrew cuomo the individual, do we sue the state of new york, do they sue both? you know, it depends on whether what he was doing was within the scope of his employment or not. i think there's probably a pretty strong argument that sexually harassing allegedly various employees is beyond the scope of employment. he could have personal liability as well, yes. >> jennifer, what do you think on that? >> oh, i agree. i agree.

i think obviously it will all get started out in litigation and on the civil side most things end in settlement. but there's no question the plaintiffs will argue both that the state is responsible for his behavior, in part because no one around him was doing anything to stop this even when they knew in the case of charlotte bennett, that a complaint had been failed against him, but also that he's personally responsible. so i expect plaintiffs will go for liability on both counts and we'll see how successful they are, but they have a really good case and a road map in the report from the attorney general. >> lindsey boylan, the first woman to publicly accuse the governor of sexual harassment, said she plans to sue him and his, quote, co-conspirators. so a sum that would mean people who worked around him, all the people who helped him in office. >> it does sound like that, anderson. and that's an important feature of this report to keep in mind. it wasn't a one-man show. this wasn't just governor cuomo. he was certainly the one doing the alleged sexual harassment

that's led to his resignation. but importantly, the report lays out this sort of scheme by others. he has enablers. he has people around him who've supported him and worse than that tried to cover up some of aspects of this and retaliate. specifically against lindsey boylan in ways that are inexcusable and could lead to liability for those people or to more liability for the state of new york. >> jennifer, does the governor's resignation -- how would that factor into a prosecutor's thinking on these cases? >> that's a really interesting question, anderson. prosecutorial discretion is something that it's not really written down, right? there isn't a list of things you're supposed to consider or the weight you're supposed to give to any consideration. but i think a prosecutor will think about among other things there's going to be a cry from the governor and his supporters that he's been punished enough, he had to resign, he's facing all this civil liability. the vindication has come from his victims in the public so, he shouldn't be published criminally. i wouldn't expect it to carry a

lot of weight. i think other factors involving whether they can meet the standards and then things like the resources of the office are going to be more important. but you know, it may come into a little bit of the thought process of the d.a. >> jennifer rodgers, elie honig, appreciate it. thank you. coming up next, white house chief of staff ron klain joins us. we'll discuss the administration's big infrastructure win in the senate and whether that trillion-dollar bill can make it past the house as well. also what the president plans to do to boost vaccination rates and whether the administration will intervene in the mask debate in texas and florida schools. ♪ ♪ oh, son of a poppyseed! ah, there's no place like panera. enjoy the cool, refreshing strawberry poppyseed salad. panera. order on the app today. discover card i just got my cashback match is this for real? yup!

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today's passage of the massive trillion-dollar infrastructure bill still has to make its way through the house before it gets to president biden's desk but regardless it's a monumental achievement. massive amounts of money for roads and bridges and broadband and more. evidence that compromise is still possible in washington, with 19 republicans including the minority leader mitch mcconnell voting with democrats. also a reminder of four years where infrastructure week was a running joke, always being derailed by the previous administration's poor planning and messaging. despite president biden's predecessor talking himself up as the, quote, builder president, something biden reminded everyone of today. >> after years and years of infrastructure week we're on the cusp of an infrastructure decade that i truly believe will transform america. >> joined now by president biden's chief of staff ron

klain. so mr. klain, the infrastructure bill's obviously a big bipartisan win for the president. as i mentioned, now heads to the house where it faces some skeptical democrats and where speaker pelosi has signaled it won't even be taken up until the senate passes a separate and much larger $3.5 trillion budget package through what's known as the reconciliation process. which democrats could do with a simple majority without any gop votes. but how concerned are you that today's win might be short-lived? >> well, i think today's win is a great win, as you said, anderson. people in washington have been trying to do this for decades, trying to find a way to pass a large infrastructure bill to make these investments. they're long overdue in our countries, roads and brimgz, internet, clean water, all these things. and to do it on a bipartisan basis makes it i think more sustainable and a stronger win. now as you said this bill has to move on to the house, it has to pass the house. and also today the senate began work on this what you call reconciliation bill, we call it our build back better agenda. investments in child care, health care, bringing down costs

for families, protecting tax cuts that help families. we want to see that pass the senate and also go on to the house. so we're hoping both these bills will get to the president's desk in september so they can sign them both. we can make both of them law, grow the economy more, create jobs, and help families with their day-to-day expenses. >> so how would that work, though? this second bill being worked on in the senate, it has -- are you going to have it pass -- try to pass through the senate before even today's bill is passed through the house? >> well, i think we're going to see the senate this week finish work on the budget resolution, the framework. tonight leader hoyer announced the house of representatives will come back from its august break to work on that budget resolution the week of august 23rd. and then both the house and senate would continue to work on this whole process in september and also the house would take up this infrastructure bill.

again, these are two parts of the president's agenda. they rebuild our physical infrastructure. the other bill brings down costs for families, provides tax cuts for working families. we want to see both of these bills pass the house and senate, both get to the president's desk, continue our economic growth, continue job creation, reduce costs for american families. >> and what happens if the second one doesn't materialize? obviously a lot of stuff in that was stuff that was rejected from the bipartisan one because it would have been too difficult to get approval on. >> anderson, we've had for six months people saying what if this couldn't pass and what if that couldn't pass, what if this couldn't pass. we passed the rescue plan, which was getting shots in arms, growing the economy. we've now passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill. we're going to pass this build back better plan. we're going to get both these bills to the president's desk. he's going to sign both of them. and we're going to make more progress in this country. >> you are obviously -- you're not only president biden's chief of staff, you were also president obama's point person

on ebola. you certainly know a lot about infectious diseases. i just want to put a map of u.s. counties and their level of covid transmission. the cdc recommending in counties with higher substantial levels of transmission, even vaccinated people should mask up. i think a cnn analysis this week showed that 98.2% of americans, around 325 million people, now live in these counties. why wasn't the governor able to get enough people vaccinated to prevent this surge? and do you think things are going to get worse? >> well, first of all, anderson, we stood up the fastest, most comprehensive vaccination plan in the world. we got 200 million shots in people's arms in 100 days. we vaccinated already over 165 million people. fully vaccinated 70% of adults have at least one shot. clearly we have parts of the country, though, particularly the parts that the most red on that map you showed, where the vaccination uptake has been slower. we've made it available. the vaccine is free, it's effective and it's within five miles of the homes of 90% of the

american people. well, now we're working on more incentives to try to encourage those who haven't yet gotten vaccinated to get vaccinated and vaccine requirements to try to pressure those who haven't gotten vaccinated to get vaccinated. so we made a lot of progress. we obviously need to do more. and that's what we're working on right now. >> president biden said today that he doesn't think the federal government has any authority to intervene in states like florida and texas where governors are attempting to prohibit mask mandates, particularly in schools. but then his administration is looking into it. florida's governor called any potential intervention" very inappropriate." what do you say about it? >> what's inappropriate is the governor of florida trying to prevent local educators, local officials from keeping kids safe. we want kids back in school this year. we want kids full time, five days a week in school. and we know how we can keep them safe. that rides first on those kids being masked. we have local officials in florida, educators who say they want to require masks.

the governor's threatening to withhold their pay if they take the basic step of protecting their students. we're going to look at whether or not they are any federal ways to at least get those local educators whole for whatever pay they lose, do what we can to help them. if governor desantis is not prepared to fight covid, he should at least get out of the way of the educators who want to keep their kids safe. >> what about vaccine mandates? i know obviously in this country a lot of companies are deciding that their employees have to be vaccinated. what about the federal government? we're told now the military is going to be making sure that everybody is vaccinated in the armed services as they are for many other illnesses. can you go farther than that? >> well, you know, two weeks ago the president announced we were going to require all federal civilian employees to either be vaccinated or to face rigorous testing, limits on their activities, other restrictions to try to really pressure them to get vaccinated. and as you said, anderson,

yesterday the secretary of defense joined by the chairman of the joint chiefs general milley said they were going to mandate vaccines for our troops. we're obviously working closely with private employers to try to encourage them to do the same thing. we need to put requirements on people to get vaccinated. that's how we're going to get this behind us. that's how we're going to be able to go back to normal. >> does everyone in the white house have to be vaccinated? is it a mandate in the white house? >> we have the same policy we have for all other federal employees. either people in the white house have to be vaccinated or they have to undergo this rigorous testing regime, be restricted on their ability to travel, be required to be socially distanced and as a result i think we have a very, very high vaccination rate here. >> do you know what it is? >> i don't know what it is for all the employees in the white house because of course a lot of people who work in the white house here are career staff. members of the armed forces who serve here and whatnot. >> ron klain, i appreciate your time. thank you. >> thanks. thanks for having me, anderson. more on covid and schools

just ahead including two questions vexing many parents. why is it taking so long to approve the vaccine for kids under 1 and when might that happen? we'll be right back.

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a little preparation will make you and your family safer in an emergency. a week's worth of food and water, radio, flashlight, batteries and first aid kit are a good start to learn more, visit safetyactioncenter.pge.com he. before the break we discussed the administration's fight with republican governors, specifically ron desantis, over mask mandates in schools. white house chief of staff ron klain said that if desantis is not prepared to fight covid he

should "get out of the way." at least seven states banned mask mandates, with others trying to limit usage. today dr. anthony fauci also said the governors should mandate vaccines for teachers. of course one question many parents have is when those vaccines will be ready for children under the age of 12. last week the american academy of pediatrics in a letter suggested the fda was moving too cautiously and urged approving vaccination of children as young as 5 years of age, even as testing continues. joined now by our chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta and the co-director for the center for vaccine development at the texas children's hospital dr. peter hotez who's also author of the book "preventing the next pandemic: vaccine diplomacy in a time of anti-science." sanjay, president biden today said he's very concerned about unvaccinated kids going back to school. dr. fauci said the fda isn't likely to greenlight the pfizer vaccine for children under 12 until early to mid winter. so a lot of parents out there who are desperate to get their kids vaccinated. can you just walk us through the approval process the fda is going through and why it may

take that long? >> yeah. i mean, you know, remember when we had the vaccines authorized for those 12 to 15 or 12 to 16 it was a bit easier because they bridged a lot of data from the adult trials and that were able to sort of make that process a little bit more seamless. now they're basically -- they're studying this vaccine in younger people, these kids. they want to make sure that there's no significant side effects. you remember there was concerns about myocarditis, the inflammation around the heart. and also being a risk-reward relationship just broadly speaking, there's certainly a risk to kids but it's lower than adults, so the bar by which you're going to authorize the vaccine has to be higher. i think both these companies, moderna and pfizer, thought they might have data by -- within the next couple of months, but the fda has asked for more data, specifically around these side effects, making sure they got the dosing right. so it's a process. just contextually, you remember, anderson, it can take a long time under normal circumstances to get these vaccines approved.

so things are still moving quickly, although not as quickly as people would like. >> yeah, dr. hotez, "the new york times," michelle goldberg, an op-ed columnist wrote "as a parent with two kids between 5 and 11 who will soon return to school i can hardly overstate the frantic helplessness i feel knowing the country is awash in vaccines that could protect them and data about the vaccines' safety in children exists yet bureaucratic caution could force us to spend the next few months taking our chances with covid instead." is that fair? is it bureaucracy? because the flip side of this one could make the argument that a cautious review process is something -- is there for a reason and if anything it should help people understand that the vaccines are not being rushed and are actually being tested and thoroughly looked at. >> yeah. and anderson, you know, our tolerance for safety signals in young kids is less than adults perhaps. and we have to be pristine

because if the fda gets it wrong it also has the spillover effect of derailing confidence in all of our childhood vaccines ranging from measles, mumps, roubla to cervical cancer, hpv vaccines. so we have to be pristine. and i think what the fda's looking at is trying to balance that with the urgency in terms of giving this adequate time to see if any safety signals appear and making sure there are enough kids enrolled. so i think it's really about looking for uncommon safety signals. in the m in the meantime there are things we can do to keep all our kids safe that we're not doing. and we've just been hearing about the lack of mask mandates across the south where i am. and the other thing nobody's talking about is vaccine mandates for the adolescents. every kid over the age of 12 if they come to school should be vaccinated against covid-19 and that will ensure that we can

operate middle schools and high schools safely if all the teachers and staff are vaccinated as well, and it has the collateral benefit. look what's going on in vermont right now where all of the adolescents just about and all of the adults are vaccinated. that slows community transmission. that also ensures school safety. so the problem is a lot of our elected officials in the south are not doing a full court press to keep all of our kids safe, and that's a really important issue. >> so dr. hotez, correct me if i'm wrong, there are things that teenagers are mandated already to be vaccinated for in order to go to school. i mean, there are things that all kids are mandated to be vaccinated for in order to go to school. so adding this, is there any reason not, for teerngz, for people above the age of 12, is there any reason not to add the covid vaccine to the list of vaccines that they have to get anyway to go to school? >> yeah, just like meningococcal

vaccinations, which is an essential vaccine to prevent meningitis. and that should be on the list. the problem, anderson, is that vaccine policy is often not set at the federal level. as far as i know, there are limits to what the president can authorize and do. and this is done at the state level. and there's a lot of heterojeneity among the states. in texas where we have a very aggressive anti-vaccine lobby that lobbies the state legislature, we have our own anti-vaccine political action committee, as extraordinary as that sounds, and it's really damaging. it's been in operation for a number of years. and so it's really stuff in states like this. and these are the same states that are also up against masks as well. >> sanjay, according to the american academy of pediatrics, almost 94,000 new covid cases among children were reported in the week ending on august 5th. you hear those numbers, 94,000, i heard that and obviously as a parent that kind of freaked me out. what do we know about the delta

variant? it may be more than it has been in the past but still relatively speaking the numbers of children who become seriously ill or hospitalized is still relatively low. >> right. i mean, i think that that's true. i want to show you what's been going on. we'll put up this graph and show you how the numbers have sort of changed to give you some idea. so you can see where we are now. and you can sort of look at where those peaks were. we're heading sort of straight up. this is among children. i know dr. hotez has looked at this data very carefully. i have as well. it's tough to say right now that the delta variant in and of itself if we're comparing previous variant to this variant that the delta variant is causing more severe illness, more pathogenic as they say -- >> in children you're talking about. >> in children. well, in adults as well. it's more transmissible. that's very clear now.

we weren't sure in the beginning. but it's very clear. in may it was about 1 1/2% of new cases were delta. and now it's close to 90%. so it's really grown a lot. but kids who may have gotten away with this not getting infected up till now, this variant is just going to be less forgiving. and i think that that's what's driving up these numbers. and we're in august. typically as you go into the fall with cooler, dryer weather, the spread increases as well. so that's heightening the concern. >> dr. sanjay gupta, as always, thank you. dr. peter hotez as well. appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up, is it time to rethink how we face covid? andrew sullivan, a writer, argues we should learn to live with the virus. he explains what he means and what that might look like, next. ? -audrey's expecting... -twins! ♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan.

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who develops products that provide hair protection so that everyone can enjoy the freedom of swimming. like the athletes competing in tokyo, these entrepreneurs have a fierce work ethic and drive to achieve - to change the game and inspire the team of tomorrow. covid outbreak in provincetown, massachusetts last month created obviously a lot of

fear. most of the 469 cases in the resort town happened among the fully vaccinated. the important part is no one died and only five people were hospitalized. five out of 469. that's part of the reason andrew sullivan argues it's time for society to effectively accept covid as part of our lives, not be paralyzed by fear. he writes, "those who live in denial, who somehow convince themselves that the virus is a hoax or deep state plot or a function of white supremacy or whatever, will experience what everyone in denial eventually experiences -- reality. and reality's the most tenacious influencer i know." andrew sullivan joins me tonight. he's also author of the new book out just now "out on a limb: selected writing 1989 to 2021." so andrew, you wrote in your column on substack you wrote, "yes i'll wear a mask indoors if i'm legally required or politely asked but i don't really see why anyone should. in a free society once everyone has access to a vaccine that overwhelmingly prevents serious sickness and death there's no reason to enforce lockdowns again or mask mandates or social distancing any longer.

in fact, there's every reason not to." there's certainly, though, millions of americans who cannot be vaccinated. we're talking about immunocompromised or children under the age of 12. shouldn't a society like ours do what they can to protect those who are defenseless? >> yes. we should. and i certainly think we should vaccinate each other and be vaccinated. but the risk is really very small to children. if you're 18 times more likely to drown if you're age 1 to 5 than to die of covid. i think putting it in some sort of perspective for children, which is it's not that serious a disease at all. it's like a bad cold. the immunocompromised are going to be unfortunately vulnerable for a long time. this now, we now know, is a virus that transmits from vaccinated people. so we're going to have to live with this thing. we're going to have to be vaccinated consistently against it. because it's not going away and it's going to be here.

and the goal is not to pursue an illusory victory over the virus but to learn how to live with it and actually live fully alongside it. >> for children, though, with pools in the example you used, laws do require there be fences around all pools. they say how high they have to be. they look ugly. they're annoying for property owners who don't have children. and yet that is the law because society wants to protect children. >> we all want to protect children. and it if this pandemic had mainly attacked children, if children were the ones dying, i think we would have locked down a very long time ago, don't you? >> absolutely. >> locked down almost immediately. >> but that's what i'm wondering, sorry for interrupting. you acknowledge in your piece that the longer this goes on,

the more the risk of other variants even worse than the delta variant. there could be a variant that specifically does go after children. so it is a possible future scenario. >> yes. but we have two scenarios. one in which the epidemic actually does blow itself out, or at least blows itself out with vaccination. and we have some sort of herd immunity, in which case we can begin to go forward. or we'll have to live with the permanent vaccinations like we have with the flu. the trouble with viruses is that you can get fixated on them rather than the goal. the goal is living. i've lived for 28 years with hiv. it is in my bone marrow. i've learned not to defeat it. i can't declare victory but i can get on with my life and make sure i don't die from it or get sick with it. >> i found out one of the most compelling things you wrote, not to lose sight of the goal which

is living your life and getting on with life even though there are obstacles and learning to live with obstacles. i certainly understand that. in arguing against masks and social distancing, you write, by getting rid of these barriers, we can accelerate by allowing to it take the helm. you write, the most potent incentive for vaccination is to be brutally frank, a sharp rise in mortality rates. the more people know someone who has suffered and died, the more they are likely to take measures. in other words, call their bluff. you went on to say, let it rip. doesn't the history of this pandemic in particular show that not to be the case? we have seen during the worst of this pandemic with hospitals overwhelmed and people dying, still, half the country is choosing not to be vaccinated. >> yes. but we are also seeing big jumps

in vaccination states in place where people really dying. certainfully florida that seems to be happening. in other southern states, that's happening. government isn't there to hold your hand every day. the government has a responsibility to give you the means to protect you and your family from this. once they've done that, as i free country. you get to live. >> i agree this is largely here to stay and we have to figure out a way to live with it. and i am clearly, i think if i had read your article before i had a kid, i would have been more in agreement with you, i will say, it has completely changed my mindset. when i read it, i was like, he he is not even mentioning children. which of course, yes, so i apologize form. >> no, no. my readers said the same thing. i think the position of a parent is unique and i can't know what that feels like. and i don't want to put myself in the place of any parent

making that sort of call. but i do know that you need to use your brain and reason. >> you talk about the dangers of other variants developing. the other thing i thought when i was reading it is that, should not you be, should not we all be a little more humble about what we don't know? i mean, i feel like hiv/aids for the first ten years, all throughout the 1980s, there was so much not known about it. it is now very well known. you're very well aware of exactly, there is this incredible miracle of medicine that has come before. and it is known what can make it just a chronic condition in people. there is a bunch of stuff about this virus we don't really know. the delta variant came along and surprised people. we thought the end was over, that it had already, that this was passed and it's not. >> look at the death rate. and look at the death rate in

the u.k., in israel. they are coming down very fast. they haven't really gone up at all. in other words, this is becoming less of a plague and more of a disease that you live with. and remember, there are costs of not living. there are costs of having a year of your life taken away from learning and developing as a child. there are costs of not being with your family. costs of not being with your fellow workers. these are huge -- we're a social animal. we can't live isolated like this. we've never done it before but you can't wrap yourself up in cotton wool the rest of your life and you must not let children not live. >> that's certainly true. happy birthday and also, congratulations on your new book, out on a limb. selective writing. i got it last night. i just started it. a lot more ahead. this tuesday night, the latest on the resignation of andrew cuomo. what it means for the state.

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good evening again. chris is off tonight. a big victory for the president and bipartisanship on infrastructure. with millions of kids going back to the classroom, we'll speak to the summit of one. largest school districts. we begin though with new york governor andrew cuomo. in our last hour david axelrod describes him as swung who wakes up every morning in a fighting mood. this morning he decided his fight to remain in office was over. >> re >> the best way i can help now is if i step aside and let government get back to governing. >> reporter: governor andrew cuomo announces he is stepping down, telling new yorkers he is a fighter but it's time. >> wasting energy on