♪ here come the teachers. here come the books, will the masks get dirty looks? i'm michael smerconish in philadelphia. that's the question. but the answer depends on which newspaper you read and which experts you bleach. this week, i opened "the new york times" to see a piece published by duke university researchers who study data collected from over 1 million north carolina students and staff members between march and june of this year. they say that when kids are too

young to be vaccinated masking is the most effective strategy for preventing transmission in schools. their data shows, quote, more than 7,000 children and adults acquired the coronavirus attended school while infectious because of close contact with those cases more than 40,000 people required quarantine through contact tracing and testing, however, we found only 363 additional children and adults acquired the coronavirus. we believe this low rate of transmission occurred because of the mask-on mask school environment, both the infected person and close contact wore masks. in other words, there's a less than 1% chance of passing covid on to a peer or adult in school if universal masking is in place. this is sound research from reputable health experts but then again so is this. on the same day, another article was published prominently on the home page of the "wall street journal" with this headline, the case against masks against

children, it's abusive to force kids who struggle to sacrifice for the sake of unsafe adults. like the author, this, too a johns hopkins medical professor and top children's hospital chief they wrote, do masks reduce covid transmissions in children? believe it or not, we could find only a single retrospective study on the question and its results are conclusive. conversely they argue that widespread masking causes psychological impact and can result until severe acne. increased problems with carbon dioxide in the blood and chronic problems with breathing. and "the new york times" publishes a strong case for masking. and "the wall street journal" publishes a case against it. how can both be true? joining me now is the author of the research published dr. peter benjamin, co-chair and duke

university abc collaborative. i'm also joined by you one of the authors on "the wall street journal" article against masks dr. codey meister. he's also the member of the committee that advises the fda on vaccine decisions. doctors, thank you for being here. let us start with the easter stuff. dr. benjamin, anyone eligible for the vaccine should be vaccinated, right? >> correct. >> dr. misener, anyone eligible for the vaccine should be vaccinated, right? >> michael, yes. and let me say thank you very much for the opportunity to participate this morning. it's wonderful to be on the show. it's also a pleasure to be on the show with dr. benjamin who is a well established authority in pediatric infectious disease. >> okay. i'd begin with you dr. meissner,

why don't you agree with him if you hold him in high regard? >> well, i think the -- what you will find, as we go through our discussion right now, is that there's not a great deal of difference between d dr. benjamin's position and my position. i think that we don't know if masks make a difference in transmission. and particularly, in a school room setting. i think adults who are foolish enough not to be vaccinated, they should wear a mask. but for children in school, we always have to think about the disadvantages of any sort of intervention. and what are the advantages. and, for example, the paper that dr. benjamin published which was wonderful, it's the sort of

study that we need. but i think he will acknowledge, there was no control group. and dr. fauci has made very clear these days that we cannot make decisions based on uncontrolled clinical trials. he compared his data with data from a school in israel that did not mask. and we don't know anything, i don't know what grades those children were in, in the israel school. i don't know what sort of ventilation they had. and how that compared with the schools in north carolina. so, it's really no control group at this time. >> let me ask you -- okay, let me ask you to explain. dr. benjamin, thank you for being here as well. go ahead and make the case for masks on kids in schools. >> sure. with the low rate in north carolina there are several other publications with a similar low rate. north carolina published in

pediatrics froms with published in nwr in 2021. and pediatric, published in research from georgia 2021 and missouri in 2021. these publications have in common a 1% or less transmission rate. and they use contact tracing, whole genome sequencing and testing, a mix of those methods, to show that. i acknowledge that we don't have a control group within the study, however, we reached out to hundreds of districts that were not masking and asked them to participate in the study. and they declined. and the primary reason for that is, prior to august, districts that were not masking had no desire to show how much covid they were transmitting in their schools. and in their communities. now, since august to the credit

of 25 different districts that have recently gone from voluntary masking to mask mandates, five districts of those, across the country actually had to shut down and go to virtual learning. as a result of hundreds of covid infections in schools. since the beginning of august, school districts that are not masking are starting to have the integrity to report their covid infection publicly. and we're seeing a tremendous amount of within school transmission. by the way, we've contacted the israeli researchers and as outlined in their public list in august 2020, those were grades 7 through 12 with pcr testing over the jewish holiday weekend. and not much changed with ventilation similar to what we did in north carolina. >> this is a lot for parents to process, dr. meissner, let me ask you this, you write that children have been known to transmit covid, but far less

often than adults do. help me understand something, the study that you cite about the lack of transmission in north carolina schools. the study that was linked to your piece in the journal was the study written about dr. benjamin and specifically said the schools had universal masking during this time. to me, as a lay person, i ask, isn't that an example of masks doing their job? >> and first, i'd like to respond to what dr. benjamin said, he cited a number of different studies. we certainly need those studies. and they need to be done. but they need to be done properly. there is no controlled trial that shows that masking reduces the risk of transmission in a school room setting. now, this needs to be studied. and i think many people have strongly encouraged the nih to do an appropriately controlled study. the doctor mentioned the states

of higher rates of different -- those are different parts of the country, there are different variants that are circulating in those areas. and the physical setup in the school is likely to be quite variable. so the important point that we were trying to make in our op-ed editorial is before we recommend that 56 million children and adolescents in the united states between fifth grade and through 17 years of age wear masks will let's find out what the consequences of such widespread use of masks is. it's harmful -- >> okay, dr. benjamin, you get the final word. it's such a complicated subject. and i'm doing my best to give people all the information but we're limited on time. dr. benjamin, respond to that with your final 30 seconds. >> yes. today, if dr. meissner goes into the hospital at tufts he will be required to wear a mask, even though there's no randomized

trials within the health care setting, masking prevents transmission. but like every major medical institution in the country, tufts and duke require masking for all visitors, patients, physicians and staff. so the protection that's dr. meissner and i enjoy in our place of work is equally necessary for adults and children where they are in school. >> gentlemen, thank you both for being here. to be continued. i wish we had more time. what are your thoughts? tweet me @smerconish. or go to the facebook page. i'll read responses from the world of twitter, i wish masks weren't a necessity but they are, and the people agitating about them the most are the same people who are making them necessary. unvaccinated adults. chris, it's a total visceral reaction to me the people i see where i am on a day-to-day basis, all masked up, i can't help put thinking they're the ones already vaccinated. if you missed it, they agreed on

one thing, everybody eligible should be vaccinated. up ahead, we're 40 weeks away from the anniversary of 9/11. and the taliban taking over with huge swaths of the country. leads me to smerconish.com and cast a ballot right now, should president biden now reverse withdrawal from afghanistan? thanks, gary. and for unexpected heartburn... frank is a fan of pepcid. it works in minutes. nexium 24 hour and prilosec otc can take one to four days to fully work. pepcid. strong relief for fans of fast.

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interest and payments and debt. ♪ four weeks from today will mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11. masterminding the attack by the taliban. from the conflict there and then the withdrawal got moved up to august 31st, even before we reached that date, the taliban has been taking over territory at a rapid fire pace leading to the inevitable question is it a

mistake for the u.s. to leave? as of this morning, the taliban had captured 18 of 34 provincial capitals that is more than half with a senior administration official telling cnn that the capital of kabul could fall soon which leads me to the survey question @smerconish.com, should president biden now reverse withdrawal from afghanistan. cnn security analyst peter bergen likens to a drawdown of a decade. peter joins me now, the author of the terrific new book "rise and fall of osama bin laden." peter, do you take issue with the decision to leave, or the way in which the decision is being executed? >> particularly, the latter. but just generally, the former. we're still in south korea, more than three quarters after a century of hostilities with 25,000 troops. the argument we're hearing,

we're hearing a variety from the administration including we have other fish to fry around the world. we only had 2500 troops there it's a relatively small number 1.3 million of active military and 2 million if you throw in reserves. i think it was an unforced error. americans are pretty much split when we look at the gallup poll, half think it was a mistake, half don't think it's a mistake. democrats seem to be more skeptical than republicans. the fact is this is an unforced error blowing up on biden's watch. >> let me be a contrarian, the rapid pace takeover of the taliban taking over, the inevitability, five years, 50 years, 100 years? why not let it happen sooner before another american dies? >> well, by the way, there hasn't been an american casualty in afghanistan i think now for a year and a half. so, i mean, i think this

argument, michael with great respect is a bit like if i have a 4-year-old boy and say, hey, i'm going to throw him in the swimming pool without a life jacket even though he can't swim, i have to explain to my wife, i'm sorry our son is dead because he drowned. the fact the troop presence was small, but psychologically important. when we in the united states had 12,000 nato troops also left, 16,000 contractors also left. and essentially everything that was supporting the rather incompetent afghan army has gone. and i think we're hearing the argument from the white house, the contrarian argument, that you made which is somehow this proves the brilliance of biden's decision, effort fact that the afghan army is collapsing so quickly. to me that seems like an odd defense of a not very smart policy choice. >> well, peter, you could also look at it this way and say he

knows this is the end result, and he at least has the courage to let it play out on his watch rather than letting him kick the can down the road. how long should the commitment be to staying in afghanistan? >> i think we should say we have a long-term commitment. the number of troops, the afghans don't care if it's 1,000, 3,000, or one guy outside of u.s. embassy. they just want to hear that we're staying. this has caused a huge collapse with the army. and it's very possible that biden will have to go back in. after all, it was vice president biden that made a version of this mistake in iraq when he pulled out completely and rerere rerenegotiated to go back in isis was conducting ethnic cleansing with the journalists and not possible that we'll see something with the taliban. they've engaged in ethnic

cleansing in the past. and certainly killed a lot of americans. and i don't think they've changed in the year as they fell from power. >> what do you think happens next? it's not like we're watching election returns on a tuesday night where the map is getting colored. we're just seeing more and more territory by the taliban. do you think the president is going to reverse course? you've got 30 seconds. >> michael, i don't know, i think this is his decision against the advice of the pentagon. i think others in his cabinet acquiesced but may have had their doubts. and he can reverse the decision. he's commander in chief. my guess is he may have to. when you're sending in 8,000 troops to the region in order to -- you're already conceding you're reversing a decision you made. >> maybe he's already doing it. congratulations on the book. it's terrific. >> thank you, michael. >> let's see what you're saying

on my smerconish media twitter, facebook, et cetera. know that after 20 years a trillion dollars if the trained afghan security forces don't have the will to fight for their own freedom then why should the u.s. pastajoe, i'm inclined to agree with you. to go back to peter's analogy, tough to refute when you see somebody drowning in a pool, but also gave them the apparatus they would need to float and it just isn't happening. go to smerconish.com and answer the survey question, should president biden now reverse the withdrawal from afghanistan? all of the polling data is at least a week, a month old on what we should do. very interesting. still to come, you need to prove proof of vaccination in more places, restaurants, concert halls. what are those who are

unvaccinated and have had covid. less white, more diverse, more metropolitan, donald trump built a political apparatus on the idea that america's physical face was changing so what will the political impact of the 2020 census be? new information. and for unexpected heartburn... frank is a fan of pepcid. it works in minutes. nexium 24 hour and prilosec otc can take one to four days to fully work. pepcid. strong relief for fans of fast. healthy habits come in all sizes.

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for the first time in u.s. history, the number of white people now in decline. that was one of many nuggets contained in new census data released on thursday. and now comes the fallout when state legislatures redraw maps of congressional districts and state legislative districts

trying to maximize benefits to their party it's and they'll have more leeway thanks to two supreme court decisions since the last states gives more states in redistricting. joining me to discuss is william frey, a demographer, at the brookings institute. his most recent book "diversity explosion how demographics are remaking america." when will whites retain the status of majority minority in this country? >> that's an interesting question. i mean, if you go to the census bureau's projections, they will tell you by using the current categories and sort of, you know, mechanically pushing it all together year by year, that it might be in 2045. but my feeling is by the time we get there, these racial categories will be very different. we already see a lot of blending in the united states. so, you know, yes, by then,

we'll at least be a minorute white. we'll be much more multiracial, multicultural. and with marriages and people changing their identities over time we'll become a more multicultural country. but that's the statistical point. that would make life a lot different. i wouldn't bet a lot of money on that if i were you. >> are you saying that racial categories in the not too distant future will lose their importance? >> you know, depends what you talk about in the not too distant future. it is important for civil rights, legislation, being able to hold people accountable for discrimination and disparages in this country and to be able to identify different groups but as

younger people become more multiracial and more blending, most importantly, if we put more federal spending and government spending into the lives of these people which the most diverse population then maybe we won't have to have the sharp racial differences that we talk about for now. >> dr. frey, you do this for a living, you crunch these democratic numbers day in and day out. i don't want to lead you, but what surprised you with the data drop that we got this week? >> well, two things that i was sort of expecting anyway, and i wasn't surprised in the decline in the population of white that people identify themselves, but the release on thursday, the big increase of people who identify as multiracial, in other words, they can say they're white and black, white and asian and white and some other race, that's

something that's bigger than i think most people expected. the census bureau can be a little bit sort of in the weeds about this asked that question more precisely and more specifically this time. so maybe people answered it that way this time that might not have answered it last time. but still tells us who we are and how people are identifying themselves. that kind of surprised me. >> in a nutshell, what's the chief political ramification that dr. william frey sees? >> well, we're a country that's becoming more diverse from racial structure upwards. people in their 20s and 30s are voting much differently than people in their 50s and 60s and that age group is moving upward. in addition, we're going to be moving outward from the traditional melting pot states into other parts of the country and fast growing places that used to be republican places like arizona and georgia and texas. those states are growing mostly

because they're attracting latinos, asians, blacks and people of color. those are groups that vote democratic so those republican states should be ready to deal with a different kind of electorate. >> well done. thank you, dr. frey, appreciate your expertise. >> sure, good to be with you. >> checking in on your tweets and facebook comments, kathryn what do we have? twitter, america is becoming less white and that scares the health out of some people. i made reference earlier to changing demographics. the overall change not just the available perspective as being something on which donald trump was successful in capitalizing on in 2016 and frankly in 2020. i want to remind you to answer my survey question, should president biden reverse the withdrawal from afghanistan, given the gains made hour by hour by the taliban? still too come, as those

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the fast spreading delta variant has hastened the onset of vaccine mandates. think of the many employers, restaurants, schools, consumers now demanding proof of vaccination. how should we be treating people who have natural immunity after surviving covid. the cdc still urges those who had covid-19 to get vaccinated this week, they released a brand-new study showing that vaccines do a better job protecting you against reinfection than natural immunity. the research said those who got co-sflid 2020 and didn't get a vaccine were twice as likely to get reinfected in june of 2021. that's compared to people who were actually vaccinated. and scientists are still unraveling how long natural immunity is what if you can

provide proof? a george mason university law professor says multiantibody tests show that he's good to go after contracting the virus in spring of 2020. because of this, he sees the vaccine unnecessary so he's suing his employer over the vaccine mandate. professor zewiky joins me now you're not vax-hesitant, you're more nuanced. explain. >> if the vaccine had been around march 2020, i would have gotten vaccinated. covid is no fun. i'm not joking about i don't want to get covid again and i don't want to risk anybody around me getting covid. my point here is what the evidence clearly show that natural immunity provides the least amount of protection against the vaccines and clearly

provides less protection than the vaccine such as the johnson & johnson. natural immunity is estimated to have a 90% to 95% protection level which is similar to the top vaccine. johnson & johnson, for example, is only 66%. so the second thing is, if you had -- recovered from covid and you get vaccinated, you don't have the same risk of side effects, you actually have increased risk of side effects because of hyper inflammation. what i'm saying, we're not challenging the rights of being worried about it and protecting the community. what i am saying, though -- provide protection. >> on the same day that you published thoughts along the lines of what you just said here on cnn, you did it in "the wall street journal." on the same day, dr. walensky,

the head of the cdc, specifically said that someone in your position should get vaccinated? >> yes, and here's the deal, michael, which is -- we are so beyond one side of medicine when it comes to this issue, i have an immunologist, my immunologist is a phd in immunology. he is familiar with my health history. he is familiar with what all this is and what the literature says. he and i have certainly ruled out the possibility that sometime in the future it might be useful for me to get some degree of vaccination. maybe the one shot is appropriate. maybe the two shots is appropriate. but the reality here is that i have immunity. my antibody tests are 900 times baseline protection for ni antibodies. here's the funny thing, michael. i've talked to a lot of people vaccinated in the past week, i have not know a single person

who knows what their actual current level of immune protection is. >> but you can make -- but, professor, you can make the same argument about people who have had covid. i wouldn't want someone who had covid at the outset to walk around robustly to say, well, i've had it and i'm sure i'm immune. lastly, dr. leana wen is a cnn medical expert for whom i have a lot of respect. i shared with her your essay. here's what she told me. put it on the screen. she said it's true those with private infection from covid-19 have some immune protection, however, studies have shown that this protection is not as durable, strong or consistent as immunity from vaccination. a recent cdc study found those that recovered remained unvaccinated twice as much. the presence of antibodies is not a reliable indicator of immune response. there's more to it. but quickly responsibility to

that. >> well, first, if you have antibody response, you they give you a booster shot. in the cdc study, they intentionally misrepresent the findings. it's two-fold likelihood. if you look at it, what it says, if you do get vaccinated -- this is a very flawed study. if you look at it, you have 0.02 risk of infection if vaccinated. and 0.05 risk if you're not. they're, that's two-fold. 0.05 is twice as much more likely than 0.02. but we're talking very small margins. they couldn't determine whether one shot would be enough or two shots, 246 people, 52,000-person study from cleveland clinic found no benefit.

12,000-person study from oxford found those who were vaccinated were more likely to develop symptomatic infection. this is a decision for me and my doctor to determine what to do next. >> i got it. yours might be an unique circumstance. we're not talking here about a blanket approach who everybody whose had covid. my coal is to advance discussion about what about those with some level of natural immunity. we don't seem to discuss them with all of the data about how many have been vaccinated and how many who haven't. professor thanks for being here. i've got to run. appreciate your time. >> thank you, michael. >> checking in on your tweets and facebook comments from the world of twitter. what do we have? i'm not a medical expert, i won't speak to that. i will say suing an employer is usual a career ender. have that on your resume going forward. just leave work.

i guess, matt, you would say if you've got an employer discriminating against you, you wouldn't say suck it up right? you'd want to change the rules. all right. here's a story i want to share. when fans yell at pro sports players it's usually futile. my friend and colleague, shane inspector, decided to take advantage of his third row season tickets at citizens bank park. shane has abwritten about vaccis and it's time to change the delta on the delta. the philadelphia inquirer has recorded while many teams have hit the target for vaccinations, several had to miss games due to

quarantine. and then it was raise the bryce harper among those who isn't vaxed? we don't know if he is or isn't. here's what happened when shanin came in during a rare low in the game. >> get the vaccine, harper! >> get the vaccine, harper. harmer had to have heard him, right? what does he think of that message? here's what happened on the next pitch. >> out towards left center field, he does! it's gone, a home run for bryce harper, his 21st of the year. >> i don't know, if shanin has now forced harp tore get the jab. maybe he discovered a new way to get the first place phillies to continue to win. still to come, two media figures, j.d. vance and larry

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j.d. vance and larry elder have more in common than just the fact each are running for office. they have been responsible for many words, raising the question are political candidates beholden to everything they have said in the past, even if they have changed their position? vance is pursuing the gop nomination for the ohio senate seat being vacated by rob portman. elder is the possible

beneficiary of the recall vote on california governor gavin newsom. there's a huge public record of words they have spoken on various issues from which both are now being held accountable. let's start with vance, the author of "hill billyelogy. he helped explain to liberals trump's appeal to those who felt left behind. he called trump cultural heroin yet vance seems to have undergone what "the new york times" a whiplash-inducing conversion to trumpism. he's tweeted several scorched earth stances. for example, when somebody made the point about how the unvaccinated who get sick are running up huge medical bills for the rest of us, this was vance's reply. he said, well, liberals have higher rates of mental illness. when are we going to stop subsidizing their political positions? he's also said that the real big lie is that january 6 was an

insurrection. i had j.d. vance on cnn and my sirius xm radio program both before and after trump was elected. seemed pretty reasonable. tripp gabriel said although mr. vance's u-turn might strike some as too convenient in an era where voters quickly sniff out inauthenticity, his political arc resembles that of many republicans who voted grudgingly for trump in 2016 but after four years cemented their support. vance is said that he voted third party in 2016. then there's conservative talk radio host larry elder whose front-runner status in a crowded field has earned him scrutiny of what "the los angeles times" has called, quote, convention-defying writ ric rhetoric. he has fueled skepticism of climate change, depicting global warming as a croc and a myth. he said they exaggerate the

dangers of secondhand tobacco smoke. he was a guest of mine last week and when i introduced him as a conservative talk radio host and trump-supporting republican, he took umbrage. >> i have not voted for a democrat since 1976 and that was jimmy carter and i regret that. i voted for bob dole, george w. bush, george herbert walker bush and whoever the standard bearer is in 2024 i'll vote for him or her as well. so i'm a republican and consistently voted republican. to call me a trump-supporting radio host is a little unfair in my opinion, that's all. >> maybe he's right. maybe i should have said larry elder has supported all republicans since jimmy carter. look, i'm not beyond political transformation myself. from 1980 through 2008 i voted exclusively for republicans running for president, then became an independent after voting for barack obama. i'm not critical of these men for changing their positions, if they are changing their positions, because i think change is natural and shows

personal growth. the question is whether it's change or opportunism indicative of inauthenticity, and on that the voters will soon decide. still to come, more of your best and worst tweets and facebook comments. and we'll give you the final result, cannot wait to see this. the survey question right now at smerconish.com. should president biden now reverse, withdraw from afghanistan? ♪all by yourself.♪ you look a little lost. i can't find my hotel. oh. oh! ♪ this is not normal. no. ♪ so? ♪ right?

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so there it is. there's the result of this week's survey question. note the fact that more than 18,000 voted, because these are not scientific, they're very

visceral. holy smokes, a very decisive result. despite the fact that we're all looking at our television monitors and seeing that map showing the taliban sweeping across afghanistan, overwhelmingly you just saw 18,000 plus number, 77% said no. no is the answer. put it back up. the host is not so smart. show it to me one more time. come on, get that slide back up. i was talking and not paying attention. should president biden now reverse? no. in spite of what's taking place, no, stay the course, come home. here's some social media that came in during the course of the program. what do we have? you missed your rebuttal on afghanistan. bergen said, yeah, please help me, david. it's like throwing a 4-year-old in the pool and expecting them to swim. okay, we've been there for 21 years. one would hope a 21-year-old could swim. i was headed in that direction. i was saying we provided the lifeguard, we provided the flotation device. that kid is never going to swim.

to which peter would say, okay, are you going to let him drown? i don't know. how long are we going to guard the pool? one more real quick. smerconish, latest bumper sticker, mask it or casket. i think i still like only the lord saves more than pe ron. see you next week. good morning. it's saturday, august 14th. we're glad you're with us. i'm boris sanchez. >> and i'm christi paul. we begin with breaking news this morning. a 7.2 magnitude earthquake has struck western haiti. take a look at some of the pictures we are just getting in here. officials say high casualties are probable. the disaster is likely widespread. i mean look at what has happened to these buildings. they're just rubble. the shaking from the quake we understand was so severe that it was felt across the