this is the "gps" special edition, the post covid-19 world. we'll imagine who our lives and livelihoods will look like not as covid-19 is defeated, which who knows when that will happen, but rather someday maybe the extraordinary measures we've had to endure are a thing of the past. we'll look first at work. many americans may be returning to their offices in coming days, weeks and months. they are likely going back to the same workplaces they left almost 20 months ago and the

same routines. but what would work look like if we started from scratch and reimagined it entirely? i'll ask the former "usa today" editor in chief, joanne lipman. >> can we reinvent the workforce in a way that makes much more sense for today. >> similarly, if we could redesign the campus and the classroom, what would we end up with and what is the future of schooling? i'll talk to former education secretary, arne duncan. >> the vast majority of students want to be around their friends, want to be with the teacher, need those human relationships, need that human contact, and the fact we've denied them that for so long is extraordinarily tough. >> also, covid-19 hit some cities hard. new york and delhi, jakarta. many predicted the death of

urban areas. scholar richard florida rejects those rumors and says instead we'll see a great urban reset. >> urbanization is it a wonderful thing. it is the thing we created as human beings when we cluster together, when we increase density, we become more diverse, we increase our innovativeness our creativity and productivity. >> finally the global economy. who will be the winners when the chips have fallen and who will be the losers? "the economist" editor-in-chief zanny minton-beddoes will weigh in. >> the cost of not being in school, the cost of not being able to focus on any areas of health care. these are hitting the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world the hardest. >> all that and more, and we'll close with my usual take, all in this special hour. so let's get started.

♪ police officers, soldiers, doctors, journalists, supermarket shelf stockers. these folks and many others went to work throughout the pandemic because they had to. but many white collar workers traded in commutes and cubicles for at-home setups, meetings became virtual, e-mails replaced conversations and coffee breaks, and the lines between work and leisure blurred. some workers will return to the office just after labor day, but many companies are delaying those plans because of the delta variant. so just what will work life look like, and what should it look like? joanne lipman has been thinking about just that. she wrote a great piece about it for "time." she is the former editor-in-chief of "usa today," and she joins me now.

joanne, before the pandemic, we had a sort of system of work that we took for granted and assumed had kind of always been around. but you point out that came out of a particular historical moment and period. >> that's right. so if you look at the workplace where we live right now, it actually dates back to world war ii. so the guys coming home from the front recreated essentially a military hierarchy, so the modern office place was actually created by a bunch of guys who created a very strictly hierarchical workforce that assumed you had to be there all the time, eight hours a day. and there was also an assumption that there was somebody at home, a wife, who was going to take care of the rest of your life. the entire workplace has changed since then, not just the introduction of women into work, but now we're in a digital society, a global workforce

where we're working with people across time zones, we're working virtually. and yet -- and we're in a service economy. and yet we are still really attached to this very, very old system of what the workplace looked like. i really -- when i started looking at this, i started with the simple question, which is, if you were going to start the workplace from scratch today, what would it look like? would it look like five days a week, 40 hours a week? i don't think so. i don't think it would look anything like that. so what covid has done with suddenly shutting down the economy in many, many ways, sending office workers home to work remotely, what it did is it provided this break that allowed people to sort of reassess how they work, the kind of work they do, the tempo of the work week, and it's given all of us an opportunity to really think wee and it's given all of us an opportunity to really think about, can we reinvent the work force in a way that makes much more sense for today. >> but there are people, as you know, ceos of banks, for

example, who say, look, a lot of the work that happens is the accidental encounters, the teamwork, and you've got to be in the same place at the same time. you know, the ceos of jp morgan and morgan stanley and such say if you want new york wages, you have to work at the new york office. what are they trying to get at, and are they right? >> i'm a believer there is a lot of these sort of incidental meetings that are very, very important. however, that said, there is a lot of that that can be done -- some of it can be done remotely, but also, you can have a hybrid model. and i think that when you talk to people, when you talk to workers, the vast, vast majority of people would prefer a hybrid model where they are sometimes in the workplace, but sometimes being able to work at home. i do think there is a danger in the executives who are saying you have to have face time. i think that is an outmoded, outdated way of thinking about things.

>> how do you deal with the class divide element of this? a ceo friend of mine said to me about those of us who do think there will be a greater hybrid model, he said to me, the ceo management loves this idea. they all have large suburban houses with home offices. but the younger kids, they don't have that. they're living four or five to an apartment, so they do want to come back to the office. is there a divide here? >> there's a couple ways this could play out. one might be that the people who are -- the younger people want to come in because they want to get away from their roommates and their studio apartment, and the older people who live in the suburbs and have a commute want to stay at home and work remotely in which case you don't get the mentoring that you need, you don't get the transmission of the company culture, which is so, so important. there is another way this class system could work out that could be potentially even more

damaging, and that would be if the people who want to hustle are in and are -- they are favored over those who are remote. this, i think, is perhaps a bigger issue. if you have a situation, we know that women, particularly working mothers of young children, and we know that people of color are more likely to say that they prefer remote working. if you have the people on the premises being favored, getting the promotions, getting the raises, getting the opportunities, whereas those who are remote do not, then you have a class system that exacerbates what we already know are the issues that these marginalized groups are already facing. so you could actually double down on the issues faced by women, faced by people of color, faced by your marginalized communities, and that's something that is a real danger that we've got to keep our eyes open for.

>> so it has to be intelligently designed, and presumably some piece of this will be -- that offices will become a little bit more like we work, that model of the idea that you come in and out, plug in and leave becomes the new model? >> i think what might be more likely to happen could be a situation where there are more satellite offices. rei, the apparel retailer, did something really interesting where they gave up their headquarters building in favor of creating satellite offices so that people could go to work but go to work in a smaller office that would be closer to their home. so you are surrounded by colleagues, which is helpful, right? but at the same time you are not having to make that long commute into the center of the city. one of the big changes that we might see, i think, would be

more companies adopting a four-day workweek. this, i think, could be quite revolutionary, and i do think -- we talk about starting the office and the workweek from scratch, i believe that is something where we might have landed. there are some experiments here. iceland over four years, 2015 to '19, they recently released the results of their experiment of a four-day workweek. they found that productivity remained constant or increased, and that employee -- the employees loved it. it was great for their mental health. they reported less burnout, they reported better balance in their work and lives, so i think there is a real lesson there. >> joanne lipman, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you, fareed. great to be here. from back to work to back to school. how can all schools from nursery to graduate change the way they educate our kids post-pandemic? i'll be back with the former

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children across america are starting to go back to school after a long summer break. and when they get back to school, the bell will likely ring at about 8:00 a.m. that's just the way schools work in america. but is that the way they should work? should kids have almost three months off in summer? is 8:00 a.m. the best start time? the pandemic gives educators and policymakers a prime opportunity to reconsider every aspect of how we teach our children. arne duncan joined me to talk about it all. he was secretary of education for seven years under president obama.

arne duncan, pleasure to have you on. >> thanks so much for having me. >> let's start by just getting the broadest lesson we can from the pandemic regarding education. what was the effect of the pandemic on education in america, particularly k through 12? >> unfortunately, fareed, the pandemic has had just a devastating impact on children's education across the country. as everyone is aware we'll be entering the third school year impacted by the pandemic, and our refusal as adults to take care of kids, to pay attention to science, to do the things that make sense have just had a really, really detrimental impact on children, not just educationally and academically, we now have tens of millions of children who are behind anywhere between a couple months to a year or more, but also on students' social and emotional needs. it's been an extraordinarily

tough time and we have to emerge from this darkness doing whatever we can to help take care of our kids' social and emotional needs first, help them accelerate academically and fulfill their emotional and academic potential. >> if you look at the economy, one of the pleasant surprises of the pandemic was that the digital economy kind of stepped in and was able to operate pretty successfully in a whole bunch of different areas. but it seems as though online education, or exclusively online education, did not really deliver. why do you think that is? >> i think all of us, but particularly our children, are by nature social beings. we probably have a small percent of students who learn better in a virtual environment, but a vast majority of students want to be around their friends, want to be with a teacher, need those human relationships, need that

human contact, and the fact we denied them that for so long is extraordinarily tough. an underreported of a story that is most troubling for me, fareed, is we have somewhere between 1.2 or 2 million students who never made a transition from physical school to virtual school, they just disappeared. we can't have a lost generation of students. this has to be high touch and not high tech. as we go into the next school year having teachers, social workers, principals, whoever, go to students' homes who have been missing for more than a year now, find out what went wrong, find out what the challenges are either at home or in the broader neighborhood, whatever it may be, get them back enrolled in school. that's critical. it has to be mission number one. >> so people talk in the workplace of a new hybrid model,

whether it be part digital, part real in person. it sounds like you're saying we need to focus on the physical in person part here. there isn't a lot of hybrid in your version. >> i think there are some things we can learn from the virtual environment. i'll give you one concrete example of it. we have thousands and thousands of algebra teachers teaching algebra to 125 students across the country every single day. think if we figured out who the best, who the albert einstein algebra teachers are in our country, and rather than teaching hundreds of students per day, think if they were teaching 10,000, 100,000, and we can use the classroom teaching as editorial. think of access to food and running water.

kids in appalachia, native american reservations, need to be able to learn anything they can any time, anywhere 24/7, so we have to continue to make their progress. but at the end of the day, for the vast majority of students, spending a vast majority of their time in a physical school building is the way to go. >> when you look forward, what is your hope for post-pandemic education? what's the best-case scenario september onwards? >> there are so many lessons we can learn, and i said repeatedly the goal here should not be to go back to, quote, unquote, normal, because normal didn't serve tens of millions of children well enough. we need to leapfrog, we need to innovate, accelerate how we learn and how we teach. just a couple quick ideas, fareed. first of all, the idea of having three months off for summer is pretty obsolete. it has been obsolete for a long

time. that was based on the raring economy, and last time i checked, most of our children weren't working in our fields. children need different amounts of schooling. some may need five days a week, nine months a year. other children might need six, seven days a week, longer days, afternoons, because of what's going on at home or in the community. some children need one meal a day at school, some children need three meals a day at school. when i ran chicago public schools, we sent home very discreetly for a couple thousand children backpacks full of food over the weekend because we were worried about them not eating on the weekend and not coming back to school. if your stomach is grumbling, you can't learn. what's been constant in education is time, and the variable has been learning. i want to flip that on its head. i want learning to be the constant and the variable to be time, and let's give every child exactly what they need to be successful. the second one is we need to

move from a system based upon sea time, and i'll go back to my algebra analogy. basically you pass algebra by sitting in class four or five days a week, an hour a day for a number of months. you should pass algebra when you know algebra. it might be nine months, it might be 15 months, and that's okay. but moving in sea time to competency, giving every child exactly what they need academically but also socially and emotionally and making sure they're fed. those are ideas that if we were to take them to scale, fareed, we could really accelerate learning, accelerate progress coming out of an extraordinarily dark time in our nation's history. >> arne duncan, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you so much for the opportunity. next on "gps," will the world's cities be yet another victim of this pandemic? my next guest says nobody should be writing obituaries for our

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after new york city was devastated by covid in the spring of 2020, much ink was spilled on the obituary of the big apple and many of the world's other cities as well.

but new york is coming back. this summer was just about as hot and noisy and filled with great art and culture and food and interested people as ever. but what have cities learned from the pandemic and what will keep those obituary writers at bay for many more decades? richard florida joins me now. he is the co-founder of the city lab and a professor at the university of toronto. richard, first with new york and san francisco, have they really come back? you still do hear the office buildings are still vacant, there are shops that are vacant. can we confidently say that cities are back? >> i think cities are back. and i think new york in particular, and we can get to san francisco. it's proven to be the most resilient city in the world. this is the second time in two decades that new york city was counted for dead. the first was after the tragic attack on the twin towers, the second was in 2008 and, of

course, now. i think the pundits got this wrong. as people have done going back to the plagues in europe, wealthier people and more advantaged people and people with families decamped cities temporarily. but i think the big effect, fareed, and you hinted at this in the question, is not where people are going to live. i think that looks pretty similar -- not the same, but similar to how it did pre-pandemic -- how they worked and where they work is going to change, and i think remote work is a much bigger deal than people thought. the best data we have says remote work is going to go from less than 5% of working days, and this is from nick bloom at stanford and his colleagues, to about 20% of working days. but that's a lot, and i think that will have an effect ultimately on reshaping and remaking these office areas or

what urbanists call central business districts of major cities. >> so explain how that will play out. describe what you think is going to happen. because if you do end up with more remote work, won't more people say, well, i could live in the suburbs. commuting three times a week is not as bad as commuting five times a week. what's the hybrid model we're looking at for the future? >> so remote work seems to have two big effects. the first is very similar to the introduction of earlier technologies like the subway or the commuter train or the automobile. remote work is the latest technology which stretches the boundaries of cities for what we call metropolitan areas. if the car allowed people to decamp to the suburbs, remote work really allows people to decamp to rural areas outside cities like new york and san francisco. if you look at the data, some of the fastest growing areas in america are the hudson valley towns outside new york city, and there are equivalents outside

los angeles or san francisco. the second big effect is how people work and commute. it's not so much that people don't want to go to the office per se. what we're finding is that suburban office parks close to where workers work and where they can drive to work are getting filled up more quickly. it's the downtown office parks where people have to commute by train or train to subway that are not filling up. it's not so much here at the office, it's this reluctance to commute. what i think is likely to happen is that instead of an area where people come to work and plug their laptop into a cubicle, the central business district will gradually be reshaped as a place to convene and socialize. >> and you've written a lot about how this kind of transformation has happened in the past, you know. we often forget cities used to be the centers of manufacturing, and then what happened? >> well, if you look at -- and i've studied this pretty exhaustively. after the spanish flu, we had the roaring '20s.

week can look forward again to the roaring 2020s. new york city came back blazingly fast and really became a center for art and culture. it's the greenwich village as we know it. new york city is a culture center because housing became more affordable and artists could move there. but the big example we could use historically that you and i lived there is the deindustrialization of great cities that happened in the '70s and '80s when manufacturing decamped and people predicted '6 the death of new york and that's when president ford said, new york, drop dead, deal with your fiscal crisis, but what happened was those older factory buildings proved to be the perfect place for art studios, musical venues for practice, other venues. they ever become the incubators and accelerators for the great tech boom in new york city, so

what wouldn't surprise me is if our big experiment with remote work is recasting our office towers and office buildings, which are located in the most central and best locations served by transit and trains in the densest part of our cities, if they came back with socialized connectivity and actually more residents and more affordable housing. >> when you look globally, it's fair to say that the great trend of urbanization -- we've already crossed, i think 50% of the world now lives in cities -- that great trend seems to be continuing and continues to be as strong as ever, and i want to ask you if i'm right in thinking the fundamental reason why this continues is very simple. you make more money if you live in a city, on average. >> that's why, in the wake of every pandemic in history going back to the middle ages, from the plagues to cholera, to the

spanish flu, young and ambitious people have flocked to cities. urbanization is a wonderful thing. it's a thing we have created as human beings. when we cluster together, when we increase density, when we become more diverse, we increase our innovativeness, creativity and productivity. it's not like we do this individually, we do it in clusters and groups in urban areas. but people get confused when they talk about urbanization. most people conceive of urbanization as more and more skrie scrapers and more and more density in the city core. part of urbanization is the intensification of land use, more people at the city center. the other part of it that we've been going through for more than a century is the extensification of the use of wland as we move to the city periphery, move to the suburbs and the rural areas and ultimately as we see these

great mega regions take shape like the new york, boston, washington corridors, shanghai in china. that's also part of urbanization and that's increasing at a quicker pace. >> richard florida, pleasure to have you on. >> it's great to see you, fareed. next on "gps," we'll explore how the pandemic shifted the economic realities of the world, both at the human level and national level. "the economist" editor-in-chief, zanny minton-beddoes is next. secret. ♪ all strength. no sweat. ♪ lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose. so you can enjoy it even if you're sensitive to dairy. so anyone who says lactaid isn't real milk is also saying mabel here isn't a real cow.

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♪ to run a growing business, is to be on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. your dell technologies advisor is here to help. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. the pandemic has troubled the hospital industries. the pandemic pushed around 100 million people around the globe back into extreme poverty in

2020. but it also made some of the rich fabulously richer. take jeff bezos. thanks to amazon's increasing indispensability during the pandemic, delivering disinfectant, diapers and daily entertainment to those stuck at home, the world's wealthiest man almost doubled his net worth, adding nearly $100 billion to his personal coffers in the past 20 months. so what will the post-pandemic economy bring for people and nations across the wealth spectrum? zanny minton-beddoes is the editor-in-chief of "the economist." welcome zanny minton-beddoes. what do you think is just the outlines of the economy as we get out of this pandemic haltingly and hesitatingly as it is, but what does it look like with all this government money

thrown at the economy in the united states and europe and china? >> well, i think there are several things going on. the first is how much will the post-pandemic economy look like the pre-pandemic economy? are we just getting back to a normal, or is there a new kind of economy? i think the significant ways we work, we live, we shop, we travel has changed. so one big question is, is all of that temporary or are some changes going to stick? the second, as you say, what is the impact of this huge amount of government spending, this huge stimulus particularly in the rich world and particularly in america is fueling the economy. if you combine that huge amount of stimulus with a sense that maybe actually some things in the economy have changed, maybe fewer people are willing to work, then you have the ingredients of potentially higher inflation. and i think that's the challenge for the debate about whether inflation is a problem is whether you think what's going on now is temporary.

as you say, we're stuttering back to normal or whether you think we're in a new world. >> what do you think happens to globalization? at the start of the pandemic, we all heard about countries wanting to bring their supply chains back and even liberals like emanuel macron started talking about the importance of national sovereignty in commission. economics. if you look at the trade in numbers, china and australia trade is at a peak, global trade has rebounded pretty much back to pre-pandemic levels. is globalization in trouble, or is it going to just sail right on? >> i think globalization is going to change. you're right that there hasn't been the collapse in trade that many people feared. but i do think that in country after country, there is an increasing focus on industrial policy, on protecting industries at home, on having critical

supply chains at home. whether it's the united states buy america, or whether it's, as you say, the europeans who have focused on strategic industries, and particularly china. china is very, very focused on its own strategic industries. you put all of that together, you have several, you know, small cuts in the nature of globalization and global supply chains. so i think the fact that it hasn't happened dramatically yet doesn't mean that it isn't sort of going to erode globalization going forward. i think we are going to see some sort of breaking up of supply chains, some regionalization, some localization. and that will change the nature of globalization and it's going to be particularly difficult for middle-income countries that have not yet got onto the kind of export-led growth ladder, and for them that process of exporting your way to becoming a richer country, which is really what the east asian countries did, what china did, is much, much harder.

so if you're in latin america or you're in africa, it's a harder prospect to do that now, particularly in globalization is not in as strong of shape as it has been. >> so let's talk about those kind of countries, because so far we've been talking really about the problems of the rich world. huge government intervention, huge technological change. but for a large number of countries, you know, i'm thinking of india or indonesia, the government can't spend that much money, it doesn't have money to spend, so it has a public health crisis, it has an economic crisis, and it can't borrow at the rock bottom rates that the western world or japan or china can. what happens to this group which is, of course, the vast majority of the world's population? >> i think that group of countries has a much tougher time going forward, and for three reasons. it's in large part because many of those countries have much

lower rates of vaccinations than the rich world, so there is a big gap in the world now between the jobs and the job nots, if you will. if you have low rates of vaccination, the delta variant and any subsequent variant are causing far more hurt, far more loss, far more loss of life and far more economic damage. so that's one big hit. the second, as you say, these countries don't have the ability to stimulate their economies, to support people in the way that rich countries have. and, thirdly, they are also hit by these fissures in globalization. they are hit by a less hospitable global environment. and particularly, if the u.s. is roaring along and starts raising interest rates, it is even harder for them because capital goes out of the united states back to those countries, making it even harder for those countries to rebound. >> and so we end up with a kind of tale of two worlds? it sounds very much like the kind of great gains of the last

20 or 30 years where the poor countries were catching up. it's being reversed now. >> i think that's really a genuine risk. if you look even in the years prior to the pandemic, the great gains that had happened in the '90s and 2000s were slowing, and many more poor countries were not catching up. so the ingredients of this were setting in before the pandemic. but i think covid has made it much harder for them, for the reasons i laid out, but also because of the cost of covid, the cost of not being in school, the cost of not being able to focus in any other areas of health care, these are hitting the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world hardest. unfortunately, for the middle-income countries in particular where the vast majority of the world's population live, things have got much tougher. if you look around the world from colombia to south africa to myanmar, you are seeing protest and political instability because people have aspirations and understandable aspirations

that have delivered, and they are fed up with the situation they face themselves in, being political crackdowns. all these ingredients together i think are a fairly combustible mix. i don't want to exaggerate, but i think the outlook really has gotten tougher for a lot of emerging economies. >> zanny minton-beddoes, always a pleasure. >> great to talk to you, fareed. next on "gps," i'll offer my own thoughts on where the world goes in the wake of this pandemic, when we come back. whether it's ensuring food arrives as fresh as when it departs. being first on the scene, when every second counts. or teaching biology without a lab. we are the leader in 5g. #1 in customer satisfaction. and a partner who includes 5g in every plan, so you get it all. without trade-offs. unconventional thinking. it's better for business.

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maintain healthy blood pressure with a custom blend of ingredients. i'm taking charge, with garlique. i want to close by giving my own thoughts. the covid-19 pandemic has proven to be a powerful spotlight, exposing futures of a society that are sometimes hidden from view. it's highlighted which countries have high quality health care bureaucracies, where governments learn from prior experiences and make reforms, and where people trust their experts and their leaders. in a sense, the covid pandemic has often been a metaphor for what is right or wrong with the country. some recent research places a spotlight on an unexpected aspect. inequality. a data scientist searched for

correlations between dozens of factors on the one hand and covid deaths in america state by state on the other. only three factors seemed connected. population density, numbers of nursing home residents, and above all, income inequality. new york has all three but most significantly, it has the country's highest level of income inequality, and second highest covid deaths per capita. other unequal states also suffered some of the highest covid death rates like louisiana and mississippi. the economists took this research on inequality and found the same pattern when comparing countries. for instance, scandinavian countries did better than the rest of europe, even sweden despite a laid back approach to the virus. a group of canadian scholars looked at 84 countries, and they found the same connection. the lower the levels of

inequality, the fewer covid deaths a country experienced on average. why is this? well, the economists has three possible explanations. first, lower levels of inequality usually mean better overall health. an extra dollar for a poor person causes a much bigger improvement in health than an extra dollar for a rich person. second, workers have more bargaining power and can get better working conditions, have better benefits and a higher quality of life. in sweden workers like meatpackers usually prone to covid in other countries have not died at higher rates than other professions, probably for the reasons i mentioned. and finally, lower inequality means higher social capital and trust. countries without great divides between the rich and poor are more able to find common ground.

make sacrifices for each other and trust one another. america with its sky high levels of inequality is now a poster child for collapsed social trust. disease is supposed to be a great leveller. viruses are equal opportunity menaces. yet, covid-19 laid bear the fissures in our society. in some cases, tearing them even wider. to build back better, we must lower the cost of health care, create a better education system, spend more on alleviating poverty, expand access to transportation housing, and provide good jobs to people who may not be able to work from home. it has never been more clear that the health of a society and the health of its people are deeply intertwined. thanks to all of you for being part of my special program this week, and i'll see you next week.

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hello, everyone. thank you for joining me this holiday weekend. we begin this weekend with a new chapter in the fight against coronavirus. cases are up more than 300% since last labor day weekend. hospitals are at capacity. there is high community transmission, and fears are growing about children who cannot yet be vaccinated. also confusion about when booster shots will be available. the white house playing defense this morning after its announcement on a planned booster rollout for september 20th came before the green light from