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a warning tonight from the department of homeland security about the potential for violence at saturday's right-wing rally at the capitol supporting the january 6th insurrectionists. a memo obtained by cnn also warns that violence could break

out tomorrow, the day before the planned rally. and just weeks ahead of the supreme court's new term in october, justice clarence thomas, who rarely speaks in public, giving a big lecture today at the university of notre dame on the subject of some people wanting to make changes to the supreme court. thomas warning people not to try to change it. >> i think we should be careful destroying our institutions because they don't give us what we want when we want it. i think we should be really, really careful. >> i want to bring in now cnn's senior political analyst john avlon, and charlie dent, a former republican congressman from pennsylvania. good to see both of you. john, new warnings tonight from the dhs ahead of this pro-insurrection rally this weekend, citing online chatter encouraging violence the day before. talk of storming the capitol. one user even commented on kidnapping a member of congress. is this an abundance of caution, or is this something more? >> it's an abundance of caution,

but it's well deserved because of course they underplayed the danger last time around with disastrous results. so i'd rather have dhs and law enforcement paying close attention to the chatter and the threats around this, quote, unquote, protest than downplaying it again. and it does look like they are taking it seriously. but there's real danger not only from the chatter and the comments but from that combustible combination of counterprotests or folks trying to get ahead of it. so this is something for us all to keep our eye on as a country. >> charlie, even as the capitol is surrounded by fencing, the dhs warning, saying that lone wolf agitators could mobilize to violence with little to no warning, war warning. you heard the former president today saying insurrectionists were being persecuted, calling the election rigged. i don't even know if that's a dog whistle. >> it's not a dog whistle.

>> that's a bullhorn, charlie. does that kind of talk inspire violence? >> well, certainly president trump cited the last insurrection. he sicced that mob on the capitol. his comments today were completely unhelpful and incendiary. you know, it might motivate some of these people to become violent. i certainly hope not. we all hope for an uneventful protest, but as john just said, law enforcement is much better prepared this time out, and the national guard stands at the ready. so i'm confident that law enforcement will be better prepared to intervene should things get out of hand. but we also have to worry about counter-demonstrators and these pro-insurrectionist protesters clashing. that could be a flashpoint that we have to watch very carefully as well. look, i walked around the capitol yesterday morning, don. they were making preparations. things looked to be in order. so i'm reasonably confidenti bu

i'm not making any predictions. >> our donie o'sullivan spoke to some people about the upcoming rally. >> you mentioned there's a lot of chants and events happening here in washington next week on the 18th. >> yes. >> to support people who were detained, arrested. >> they're political prisoners pretty much. >> we're hearing it's a setup again. so what wants to get involved with na? >> i've seen this talk too. you think maybe a lot of folks like yourselves might not show up because it's being said it's maybe a setup or a trap? >> i'm really not sure because i know on january 6th, it was huge, and there was so much chatter on social media about it with all the groups me and her are in. i haven't heard too much about this, very little. >> everybody saying it's a setup, don't go. >> i wouldn't be surprised if it won't be much, and we haven't really made up our mind yet, so -- >> i mean no one knows how many

protesters will come, but there is a counterrally planned. that could spark confrontation. there's also the possibility of violence in other cities. >> there is, and, look, it's part of the ecosystem. you know, on the one hand, you heard those two folks say, well they're concerned it's a setup. could that depress turnout? of course it could. but you also heard that rhetoric about the folks who attacked the capitol being held as political prisoners, which is an absolute lie. it's disinformation. it's misinformation, but it reflects the kind of swill these folks are being sold on social media, and that itself can provide incitement. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. i appreciate it. i want to bring in now congresswoman zoe lofgren, a california democrat who is a member of the select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection. representative, thank you so much. i appreciate you joining us this evening. first, i want to get your thoughts about this dhs warning of violence this weekend at this pro-insurrection rally. even online chatter about kidnapping a member of congress.

how concerned -- what's your concern level right now? >> well, you know, i'm trusting the security professionals. i've been briefed by the chief of police and the two sergeant at arms, and they have laid out the preparations that they've made that appear to be much better than in january. but it's a concern that we've got this element in american society that is embracing violence to promote a lie. and unfortunately we have elected political leaders and former elected political leaders that are promoting the same lies. i mean, please. the january 6th insurrectionists have been charged with crimes. why? they viciously attacked police officers. they maimed them.

people died. this is not about politics. it's about criminal activity. >> but even with all of that, congresswoman, i want to move on and talk about this. with everything you just said, i mean it hasn't just occurred to me, but in this interview, all of the evidence, all the people who have been charged, everything, the video, whatever, and you still have many people in this country who have become emotionally attached to a lie. when someone is emotionally attached to a lie, can any amount of truth or evidence change things? it seems like we may be in this period for quite some time. >> well, we're in a serious challenge to american democracy right now. i've been doing some reading about fascist propaganda in the past. you can take a lie, and if it is amplified by leaders and it feeds into existing prejudice

among the population, it can be received as truth even though it's completely false. we've seen that happen here in america. i'm not sure i ever thought that would occur, but it has. and so we've got to confront that and figure out how to deal with it to save our democracy. >> yeah. i understand what you're saying, but it's not just -- it is the repetition of a lie. that's part of it. but there is an emotional attachment to hanging on to the falsity of the big lie or what happened in 2020, the election in 2020. representative, i appreciate you joining us. thank you so much. >> you bet. anytime. >> thank you. they said that they were investigating the investigators. they said that they proved the mueller investigation was a witch hunt, and now it looks like it's fizzled out. a year after what was supposed to be the big october surprise, what happened, and what is this kind of thing doing to our

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tonight a lawyer named michael susman is being indicted on charges of lying to the fbi. it's part of the special counsel's inquiry into the origins of the trump/russia investigation. i want to discuss with cnn's evan perez and elie honig, a former federal prosecutor. good to see both of you. evan, you're up first. an indictment tonight in this long-awaited robert durham investigation, but it's not what people were built up to anticipate -- well, what certain people were built up to anticipate. take us through the charges, please. >> look, there was a lot of hype over this investigation by john durham, who was appointed as special counsel by bill barr, you know, to look into the investigation, the trump/russia investigation. durham today filed charges against michael susman, who is a cybersecurity lawyer here in

washington, who worked for perkins kouey. he's accused and charged with lying to the fbi at a meeting in september 2016 in which he handed over information that purported to show some kind of communications between a server belonging to the trump organization and a russian bank called alpha bank. now, according to durham, this was a key lie, a material lie that is worth bringing this charge of making a false statement because he says that susman didn't disclose that he was working at the time for the clinton campaign, presented himself as working for some tech executive. what we see in these documents today, though, don, we see in the documents from durham, it seems the fbi knew fully well that susman was working for the clinton campaign.

it says that in the notes, the internal notes, from the fbi, and also the fact that susman worked for the clinton campaign and the democrats was not a secret. this was something that was well known within the fbi. we got a statement from susman's lawyers, who say this is politics, not facts, and he accuses john durham of advancing a conspiracy theory. and as you pointed out, this began with so much hype back in 2019 and certainly they were expecting an october surprise. the president was. and that really has no materialized at this point. he's only the second person that has been charged in this investigation. >> elie, this durham investigation was supposed to uncover earth-shattering revelations about the origins, or as the former president said, the oranges of the russia investigation within the fbi probe to prove that it was a hoax, a witch hunt. so what happened here? >> don, this has been a donald

trump political revenge fantasy, enabled by bill barr from day one. let's go back almost 2 1/2 years, like evan said. may of 2019, the mueller report has just come out. donald trump is thirsty for revenge now, and he says, i want to investigate the investigators, and bill barr, as he always did, snapped to focus and appointed john durham. here we are 2 1/2 years almost later and they have two indictments of fringe players, essentially unknown people on, yes, federal crimes, fairly low-level federal crimes. let's also remember bill barr himself personally traveled internationally to try to help this investigation along, and donald trump himself made calls to other foreign leaders to try to help this along. and even with that kind of firepower brought to bear, i've never seen any case where the a.g. and the president are involved, they came up with a dud. >> evan, this probe has been, you know, elie just said it's gone on for more than 2 1/2 years, touted by the former president, his allies, and god

knows how many right-wing pundits as the unmasking of the deep state. but there's been just, you know, one other indictment of a low-level fbi agent who pleaded guilty to falsifying an email related to investigating carter page. i mean is this it? i mean what is this? >> yeah. i mean, look, at this point we believe based on our sources, we believe that durham is wrapping up his report. his investigation is pretty much completed. and if he has some other big shoe to drop, we expect that it would happen by now. and just for context, mueller's investigation, right, the trump/russia investigation, 34 people were indicted, 3 companies. again, this investigation -- this investigation of the investigators has gone on longer than mueller, and this is only the second person charged. and if you remember, the president -- the former president and his allies would

attack mueller, saying that a lot of the stuff brought by mueller were so-called process crimes. well, that's what this is. i mean this is exactly fitting into the criticism that they made so often. and all of the things that they were expecting, right, this falls into a pattern. not only the unmasking investigation that you were talking about, there was also expectations that they were going to bring charges against people in the clinton foundation. obviously they wanted -- >> let's see. there was -- they had the unmasking allegations involving general michael flynn. investigations of hillary clinton's foundation, uranium one, her server and so many more. >> they promised that jim comey and john brennan were going to go to prison. >> well, what happened? >> it hasn't happened. >> all right. >> still waiting. >> evan, thank you very much. e elie, you're going to stick

around. supreme court justice clarence thomas giving a rare speech, talking about race and the state of the country. and as the supreme court moves farther and farther to the right, he's got a warning. that's next.

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(music) ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ the supreme court's deeply controversial decision not to block texas' new restrictive abortion law is leading to new scrutiny over the role of the court. but tonight one of the court's most conservative and famously silent justices is speaking out. when asked what is the biggest threat to the courts in the coming years, justice clarence thomas saying it is their own

politics. >> when we do that and we begin to venture into political -- the legislative or executive branch lanes and resolving things that are better left to those branches, those of us particularly in the federal judiciary with lifetime appointments are asking for trouble. i think a lot of the pressure in the nomination and selection process is because of that. i think the court was thought to be the least dangerous branch, and we may have become the most dangerous. >> that certainly gives us a lot to discuss with elie honig and areva martin. elie, i'm going to start with you. we almost never hear from justice clarence thomas. does it surprise you to hear one of the most conservative political justices on the court

saying, politics is the biggest threat? >> it does surprise me to hear justice thomas say anything, but especially hear him say that. i mean, this is a growing thing. just in the last few weeks, we've heard similar sentiments from justice amy coney barrett and even stephen breyer. we can all see what's going on here. it goes back to really 2000, bush v. gore, when the five conservatives took this side and the four liberals took that side. that's not happenstance. that's not coincidence. we saw it against just a couple weeks ago with the texas abortion case. the five justices who said -- they said, well, we can't touch it now because of procedural issues, just so happened to be five conservative justices, most of whom are on record as being in favor of striking down roe v. wade. we can't ignore that. >> areva, he talked about his experience growing up in segregated georgia in the '50s and '60s. let's listen.

>> there was, of course, quotidian and pervasive segregation and race-based laws, which were repulsive and at odds with the principles of our country. despite that, there was a deep and abiding love for our country and a firm desire to have the rights and responsibilities of full citizenship regardless how society treated us. there was never any doubt that we were equally entitled to claim the promise of america as our birth right. >> so justice thomas has been criticized by some black americans for his decisions related to race, areva. i spoke with professor randall kennedy, saying, hey, it is okay. he understands why some black americans call clarence thomas a sellout. is that fair? >> i think it's absolutely fair. when you listen to clarence

thomas, in some ways, don, all you can do is laugh. he made a very bold statement in the speech tonight that justices don't make decisions based on their personal decisions. but what we've seen from him is exactly that, that he does make decisions based on his personal political preferences and beliefs. he says that, you know, he's against roe v. wade. he wants to overturn roe v. wade. he not in support of abortion and he has ruled consistently with that. there are at least five decisions where he's ruled against abortion, and he with can't find any decisions where he's ruled in favor of choice. so at a time when he wants us to think it's the media that is causing faith in the supreme court to be undermined, he ignores the actions of mitch mcconnell. he ignores the rushed confirmation process of kavanaugh and amy coney barrett. so i don't think we can take anything that justice clarence says -- you know, we have to take it all with a grain of salt. he is not to be trusted, and his comments about race, his comments about choice are all

just, in many ways, despicable. >> people are going to say, oh, my gosh, they're up on cnn, you know. don lemon is allowing the justice to be called a sellout. those were words from a harvard professor that you're discussing, and you're saying you think it is fair for some folks, especially black folks, to be skeptical of clarence thomas, especially the way that he has ruled on issues of race. >> oh, absolutely, don. yes, you're going to be criticized, and i'm going to be criticized. >> but that's okay. it comes with the job. we have to speak truth to power. we would be remiss if we did not call out clarence thomas for the way he has handled himself, the comments that he makes, and the rulings he's made while sitting on the court. he is the oldest sitting judge. he's been on the court longer than any of the other justices. he was appointed. and one other thing. >> you mean the longest sitting justice, not the oldest. but go on.

sorry. >> right. he was so dismissive of the claims of anita hill during his speech tonight and says his whole confirmation process, he called it craziness and said it was politicized and it was about abortion, would not recognize the legitimate claims that anita hill made. every time he opens his mouth, i think we have to be very skeptical about anything he says. >> elie, the texas decision by the court -- and want to add more justices. thomas spoke to that tonight as well. here it is. >> we have lost the capacity even, i think, as leaders to not allow others to manipulate our institutions when we don't get the outcomes that we like, when, for example, president roosevelt threatened to pack the court, there was enough sense of what the court meant and what

separation of powers meant to criticize him. today, you see almost no criticism or very little when you have those kinds of conversations. and i've been on the court for 30 years. it's flawed. but, you know, i will defend it. it works. it may work sort of like a car with three wheels, but it still works, you know? somehow you sort of hobble along, and you recognize its imperfections. and i think we should be careful destroying our institutions because they don't give us what we want, when we want it. >> elie, but hasn't the destruction already begun? mitch mcconnell has played politics with the selection of justice gorsuch, refusing to even meet with president obama's choice of merrick garland. >> yeah. it's easy to say the kinds of things we heard justice thomas say when you're part of a 6-3 majority. then you're perfectly happy with

how things are now. people may not know the number nine justices, that's not set in stone. that can be changed by congress. the question is are democrats going to have the political will to do that? democrats control the house, the senate, the white house right now. if they were willing to change the filibuster rules, they could do something about it. but thus far the political will is just not there from the president and others. >> elie, areva, thank you both. i'll see you soon. appreciate it. trump's big lie alive and well with republicans in pennsylvania. state lawmakers trying to launch a review into the 2020 election, and they're subpoenaing voters' personal information to do it. that's next. but first, all next week on cnn, our special champions for change series will spotlight everyday people who don't make headlines but still smash barriers and inspire others to do the same. here's a quick preview. >> join your favorite cnn anchors for a special week. >> immigrants enrich our country, and they're proving it. >> sharing stories of change makers. >> this is one of the most devastating and yet preventable

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despite zero evidence of widespread voter fraud, republican lawmakers in pennsylvania have voted to subpoena millions of voters' personal information in order to keep fueling the big lie. the information they're seeking in this probe, including names, addresses, driver's license numbers, partial social security numbers as well as portions of their voting history. why do they need this information? they say to verify voters' identities. if it sounds familiar, it is because arizona republicans already tried something like this with their fraudit. i want to bring in now one pennsylvania republican who

oversaw the election in his city, philadelphia city commissioner al schmidt. thank you so much, commissioner. i appreciate you joining us this evening. what has it been, ten months since the election. president biden won pennsylvania by more than 80,000 votes, and multiple courts have shut down challenges to that vote. there was no fraud. so what are republicans hoping to accomplish with this taxpayer-funded scheme? >> well, first of all, the pennsylvania state senate committee, with actual jurisdiction over these matters, held a whole series of hearings earlier this year resulting in a really responsible, bipartisan package of reforms to improve elections in pennsylvania. and i testified in front of those committees. this is something entirely different. the subpoenas, i think, that we're seeing now have really only one purpose, and that is to try to appease the former president and his followers in pennsylvania and to try to

relieve pressure on republican lawmakers to do something. >> how much of this gop effort in pennsylvania is about spreading disinformation to keep this fraud, you know, on the front burner? >> well, it's really very circular when you look at it. you have lawmakers lying to constituents. you have deceived constituents demanding that lawmakers do something about this -- about this issue. >> about a problem that doesn't exist. >> and the lawmakers say, what else are we going do do? we have to do something. we have to hold hearings. we have to issue subpoenas. it's not just a matter of subpoenas. it's as you mentioned earlier, the substance of it, what it is that they're seeking and the privacy component of it. >> cnn has a new poll. it shows that 78% of republicans don't believe biden legitimately

won despite having no evidence. i mean this is where republicans stand. how can you have a democracy when the losers won't accept that they lost? >> and i think we're really -- you know, this is far outside of my scope as a parochial, you know, election administrator in a city in america. but i think we're entering a very dangerous place here. you have a majority of one of the two major parties that does not have confidence in our democratic process right now. at some point when republicans start winning majorities, i'm very concerned that the same thing could happen to democrats, and i certainly hope that doesn't happen. but if we lose a majority of americans who no longer have confidence in our democratic process, then it's really a very dangerous thing. i think fundamentally, what people need to keep in mind is

they can't separate their rhetoric from consequences. and their rhetoric does have consequences, and it manifests itself in death threats to election officials. it manifests itself in what happened on january 6th, and it manifests itself in an erosion of confidence in our democratic process in america. >> part of the information these lawmakers are looking for is personal data like driver's licenses and partial social security numbers. how is this going to sit with the nearly 7 million pennsylvania voters? >> well, i would expect that the commonwealth and our attorney general, josh shapiro, and the city of philadelphia -- i'm only one member of the board of elections here, but i would expect that they would resist this effort because not only is the information everything that you would need to commit identity theft or open a credit card or take out a loan in

someone's name with their birthday, with their social security number, with their driver's license number, but it's really very unclear where this information would wind up. what third party would be provided with this information to do this so-called investigation? >> listen, we know that at least two of these lawmakers went to observe the arizona audit, which turned out to be really a clown show or a fraudit as i've been calling it. are they planning to use that as a model? >> i don't know. you know, i'm a big fan of the movie "charlie wilson's war," and there's a good quote in it that says, hey, we're going to keep doing this political tradition of saying one thing and doing something totally different. so it's a little bit difficult for us to figure out what it is that this obscure committee has in mind here, and they won't commit to not providing this information to unreliable third

parties, won't even commit to not providing it to someone like sidney powell, who i wouldn't even trust to walk my dog let alone with confidential information about our voters in philadelphia. >> well, then, that leads me to this question. what about the audit? who would have access to these voters' personal data because the audit firm in arizona, the cyber ninjas widely addressed -- access, excuse me. had access to these voting booths, and it has been a disaster. i mean they have to -- they're going to have to redo and get new voting booths, get new machines. >> and why anyone would want to repeat what's going on or replicate what's going on in arizona in the commonwealth of pennsylvania or other states around our country is beyond me. it's a joke, and it would be a funny one if it didn't have real consequences that are damaging to our system of government.

>> commissioner, this is a very important subject. i'm sure we'll have you back to discuss. we thank you for appearing this evening. you be well and be safe. >> thank you, sir. you too. an atlanta elementary school in the spotlight as a civil rights complaint accuses a principal of segregating classes based on race. but some black parents saying they support the idea. t ready for what's next, custom gear from custom ink can help make the most of these moments. we've developed new tools to make it easy for you. custom ink has hundreds of products to help you feel connected. upload your logo or start your design today at customink.com

should race be a factor when determining in which classroom a child should be placed? well, that sounds like a question that hearkens back to segregation. in fact, it's at the center of an ongoing controversy at a public school in atlanta. and for black parents, the answer is yes. some black parents. the story tonight from cnn's nick valencia. >> reporter: mary lynn elementary is located in a predominantly white -- choose instead to send them here in large part, they say, because of sharon briscoe, a progressive principal whom parents lobbied for years to hire. but it's briscoe's alleged conversation about race-based class placement practices that are now the focus of a civil rights complaint. >> and she then informed me that that wasn't the black class. >> she said that wasn't the black class? >> that is correct. >> how did you react to that? >> i just -- a pit was in my stomach. i was like, what do you mean?

like i don't understand. we have those? >> reporter: of the six total second grade classes at the atlanta public school, kyla posey says she was told by principal briscoe that black students, including posey's daughter, would only have a choice between two of the classes. in july, she and her husband, who works as the school psychologist, filed a federal complaint with the department of education. >> it may not be your 1950s segregation where you have signs above water fountains and rooms, but it's the same thing. >> reporter: atlanta public schools investigated the poseys' claim saying in a written statement that atlanta public schools does not condone the assigning of students to classrooms based on race. as such, the district conducted a review concerning allegations of this conduct at mary lynn elementary school. at the conclusion of the review, appropriate actions were taken to address the issue, and the matter was closed. a spokesman for aps would not disclose the specifics of the actions it took against the

school, telling cnn they do not share details of personnel decisions. briscoe, who is black, remains the school's principal. >> and i asked her why was she doing it, and she said because she was building community and that's what she was doing. and i kept telling her that she was wrong. >> reporter: not everybody agrees with posey. some race relations experts believe that grouping students by race actually could create a healthier environment in classrooms. >> to be able to have that community inside your classroom can be comforting. >> reporter: clinical psychologist kyra banks says there is psychological research supporting the idea of critical mass in the classroom for minority groups, especially at a school like mary lynn, where black students make up an estimated 10% of the 599 students. >> now, to frame those classes as the black classes, that, i think, is problematic in the sense of how you frame it and how you articulate the intention and why it's happening.

but i think that the desire to make sure that kids don't feel tokenized, that they can go to school and just focus on being in school and being a kid. >> i would never, ever want my child to be the one black child in a classroom. >> reporter: shortly after the poseys came forward, these mothers were part of a group of concerned black parents at the school who wrote a letter in support of briscoe. they asked us to conceal their identities because of ongoing threatening phone calls to the school in the wake of the segregation claims. they believe briscoe acted in good faith if their child's race was allegedly used as a factor in the class placement, they say they're in full support. >> i grew up where i was the only black child in the honors classes in my high school for four years. and when i say that i still have trauma based on it, i still have trauma based on it. it was very isolating. principal briscoe, she is a black woman. she went to a black college. she raised two black sons. there's no one on earth who can say that she does not care about

black children. even the complainant herself has said that briscoe supposedly admitted to doing it to build community and so that no one black child is isolated in a classroom. >> reporter: but the poseys say the principal violated the civil rights act of 1964 in using race to designate classes for black students. posey also alleges an afterschool program she ran at the school was threatened to be cut in retaliation for her complaint. a senior attorney for the naacp legal defense fund believes they have a case, even if the principal says she was trying to do the right thing. >> the concerns about one's child being the lonely only are sincerely felt concerns. but be that as it may, the law is what it is and does not permit children to be assigned to classrooms based on race. >> reporter: in a statement to cnn, briscoe's attorney said she was extremely concerned about the recent allegations of

wrongdoing. given that this is an active investigation, however, ms. briscoe is limited in what information she can share right now but is looking forward to telling her side of the story at the appropriate time and place. >> in her response saying she wanted to build community, do you think that this was done in good faith on her part? >> um, i don't know because for me, full stop, it's illegal. so i can't really get past if it was in good faith because it really doesn't matter at that point. it's wrong. >> reporter: we reached out to the department of education but they have not indicated one way or the other whether or not they are going to pursue the poseys complaint. the poseys say they want the leadership at mary lynn elementary gone. the school district says they will not be commenting on this case beyond the statement they provided. don? >> thank you so much, nick. and thank you for watching, everyone.

our coverage continues. judy? d-con. mice love it to death.

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